STD Tuning Engine 616 Turbo Short-Block build

616 Turbo Short-Block build

616 Turbo Short-Block build

 
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OM616
10mm MW

572
10-22-2013, 10:51 AM #51
(10-21-2013, 03:22 PM)Simpler=Better So you really can't get custom pistons for less? I would have sworn guys were getting $100 pistons for turbo fords

The 617a pistons are unique in that they have the oil passages in dome of the piston, where as normal "Turbo" pistons do not.

A traditional "Turbo" piston, just means that it most likely is dished for lower compression, and is forged, same goes for blower motor pistons. The MB pistons are the only ones that I have seen with oil galleries cast into the dome, hence the extreme cost for them.
OM616
10-22-2013, 10:51 AM #51

(10-21-2013, 03:22 PM)Simpler=Better So you really can't get custom pistons for less? I would have sworn guys were getting $100 pistons for turbo fords

The 617a pistons are unique in that they have the oil passages in dome of the piston, where as normal "Turbo" pistons do not.

A traditional "Turbo" piston, just means that it most likely is dished for lower compression, and is forged, same goes for blower motor pistons. The MB pistons are the only ones that I have seen with oil galleries cast into the dome, hence the extreme cost for them.

MFSuper90
Budget Builder

1,533
10-22-2013, 04:57 PM #52
I'm pretty sure turbo pistons arent dished, next time I am home I'll snap a picture or two of a turbo piston and rod

'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         
MFSuper90
10-22-2013, 04:57 PM #52

I'm pretty sure turbo pistons arent dished, next time I am home I'll snap a picture or two of a turbo piston and rod


'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         

OM616
10mm MW

572
10-22-2013, 07:09 PM #53
(10-22-2013, 04:57 PM)MFSuper90 I'm pretty sure turbo pistons arent dished, next time I am home I'll snap a picture or two of a turbo piston and rod

I should have clarified that to turbo pistons like the custom Ford ones mentioned for Gas engines. With a lower compression ratio you can run more boost, (detonation is bad in a gas engine),so it is normal for Turbo and Blower pistons to be dished for a lower compression ratio (7.5 or 8 to 1 for example).

The MB 617a pistons are not lower compression pistons, they just have larger wrist pins and an oil passage casted into the dome for the cooling oil to circulate through.
OM616
10-22-2013, 07:09 PM #53

(10-22-2013, 04:57 PM)MFSuper90 I'm pretty sure turbo pistons arent dished, next time I am home I'll snap a picture or two of a turbo piston and rod

I should have clarified that to turbo pistons like the custom Ford ones mentioned for Gas engines. With a lower compression ratio you can run more boost, (detonation is bad in a gas engine),so it is normal for Turbo and Blower pistons to be dished for a lower compression ratio (7.5 or 8 to 1 for example).

The MB 617a pistons are not lower compression pistons, they just have larger wrist pins and an oil passage casted into the dome for the cooling oil to circulate through.

wolverine
TA 0301

57
10-22-2013, 08:33 PM #54
If you still need pics, these are the best I have right now. Took them when I was tearing down a 617a I plan to put in my 240d. But as it turns out #1 piston was melted above the top ring. So my hunt for a decent used piston continues...
I can get pics of the piston and rod tomorrow when I'm at the shop. Can also measure the rod length if you need that.


decent view of squirter and piston in #2 and #3 cyl
[Image: 2nta3a0.jpg]

#1 piston squirter already removed
[Image: 24vr69h.jpg]

#2 view of exit hole in piston
[Image: 2411krs.jpg]

#1 and 2, 1 squirter removed
[Image: riclsn.jpg]
wolverine
10-22-2013, 08:33 PM #54

If you still need pics, these are the best I have right now. Took them when I was tearing down a 617a I plan to put in my 240d. But as it turns out #1 piston was melted above the top ring. So my hunt for a decent used piston continues...
I can get pics of the piston and rod tomorrow when I'm at the shop. Can also measure the rod length if you need that.


decent view of squirter and piston in #2 and #3 cyl
[Image: 2nta3a0.jpg]

#1 piston squirter already removed
[Image: 24vr69h.jpg]

#2 view of exit hole in piston
[Image: 2411krs.jpg]

#1 and 2, 1 squirter removed
[Image: riclsn.jpg]

OM616
10mm MW

572
10-25-2013, 11:37 AM #55
Nice pics.. Thanks!!

Looking at them gives me some worry that the 616 block doesn’t have the area that the 617a does where the squirter nozzles are. And the nozzles do not look like they would be use full with a 616 piston because they are aimed so close to the skirt, I would want them to be aimed at the dome as much as possible...

Now I could make some nozzles... But still concerned that the 616 casting is not adequate...
OM616
10-25-2013, 11:37 AM #55

Nice pics.. Thanks!!

Looking at them gives me some worry that the 616 block doesn’t have the area that the 617a does where the squirter nozzles are. And the nozzles do not look like they would be use full with a 616 piston because they are aimed so close to the skirt, I would want them to be aimed at the dome as much as possible...

Now I could make some nozzles... But still concerned that the 616 casting is not adequate...

wolverine
TA 0301

57
10-25-2013, 09:18 PM #56
Yes, there is an extra boss cast there for the squirters. The outer 2 holes are only lineup dowels though. Might be able to machine off part of that. In the last pic the squirter is on the ground, blurry but might help.

The squirter hole is indeed right next to the skirt. Not optimal but I assume the duct through the piston corrects that?

Rod lengths are the same between the motors and I assume compression height is on pistons is too. Seems like If you COULD get the squirters in the 616, 617a rods/pistons would be the way to go. But personaly I've had a hell of a time just finding one usable piston. Lemme know if you find the motherload somewhere LOL
wolverine
10-25-2013, 09:18 PM #56

Yes, there is an extra boss cast there for the squirters. The outer 2 holes are only lineup dowels though. Might be able to machine off part of that. In the last pic the squirter is on the ground, blurry but might help.

The squirter hole is indeed right next to the skirt. Not optimal but I assume the duct through the piston corrects that?

Rod lengths are the same between the motors and I assume compression height is on pistons is too. Seems like If you COULD get the squirters in the 616, 617a rods/pistons would be the way to go. But personaly I've had a hell of a time just finding one usable piston. Lemme know if you find the motherload somewhere LOL

OM616
10mm MW

572
10-30-2013, 11:10 AM #57
I found this pic while looking in the for sale section.. I do not remember who originally posted it, but thanks!! I hope they do not mind me copying it...

As much as I would like to put the piston squirters in the 616, I am loosing faith that it can be done.. I am going to see if there is a oil system graphic in the manual that shows a line to tap into.

   
OM616
10-30-2013, 11:10 AM #57

I found this pic while looking in the for sale section.. I do not remember who originally posted it, but thanks!! I hope they do not mind me copying it...

As much as I would like to put the piston squirters in the 616, I am loosing faith that it can be done.. I am going to see if there is a oil system graphic in the manual that shows a line to tap into.

   

willbhere4u
Six in a row make her go!

2,507
10-30-2013, 01:26 PM #58
Ive read the the block should be the same for turbo or non turbo 4 or 5 cylinders the 4 cylinder block just needs to be machined out for the squirters

1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
10-30-2013, 01:26 PM #58

Ive read the the block should be the same for turbo or non turbo 4 or 5 cylinders the 4 cylinder block just needs to be machined out for the squirters


1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running

Tito
Holset

354
10-30-2013, 02:30 PM #59
[Image: p0427.jpg]

[Image: p0449.jpg]

[Image: p0450.jpg]

[Image: p0451.jpg]

Here's some pic's on a 4 cyl (no turbo available) pistons squirter mod. Not my pic's. Don't know how I got them... The last pic shows an arrow where a oil line runs I think... The rest are just drilled and tapped.

It's remarkable that a engine with no turbo available has this I think... But then again it isn't because a turbo is just a 4 cyl extended.
Tito
10-30-2013, 02:30 PM #59

[Image: p0427.jpg]

[Image: p0449.jpg]

[Image: p0450.jpg]

[Image: p0451.jpg]

Here's some pic's on a 4 cyl (no turbo available) pistons squirter mod. Not my pic's. Don't know how I got them... The last pic shows an arrow where a oil line runs I think... The rest are just drilled and tapped.

It's remarkable that a engine with no turbo available has this I think... But then again it isn't because a turbo is just a 4 cyl extended.

sassparilla_kid
diesel > all other fuels

1,618
10-30-2013, 07:53 PM #60
TITO DA' MAN!!!!!!!!!

-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
10-30-2013, 07:53 PM #60

TITO DA' MAN!!!!!!!!!


-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!

Tito
Holset

354
10-31-2013, 04:08 AM #61
Well, those are not my pic's but from a Finnish guy. Gotta give him credits. I had the links somewhere on a notepad on my PC. There where 4 more links but those seem dead.
Tito
10-31-2013, 04:08 AM #61

Well, those are not my pic's but from a Finnish guy. Gotta give him credits. I had the links somewhere on a notepad on my PC. There where 4 more links but those seem dead.

sassparilla_kid
diesel > all other fuels

1,618
10-31-2013, 09:20 AM #62
Oh well regardless, you managed to dig up the pictures

-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
10-31-2013, 09:20 AM #62

Oh well regardless, you managed to dig up the pictures


-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!

OM616
10mm MW

572
11-02-2013, 11:58 AM #63
Thanks for the pics!!!

Given that it is the oil supply for the mains, I definitely would want to use the MB nozzles because they have pop off valves so bellow 20PSI I believe it is, they shut off.

I would want to machine a flat area in the block, and then make a spacer block to recover any height difference so they are installed exactly as the 617a.

However I definitely would not want to just start carving on a good block lol... I would want to cut a block in half to see how much material there is to work with and mock one up first.

I am not totally apposed to making custom nozzles, but that is just more time that I have so little of... Hell I still have a pump calibration machine to finish!! Lol
OM616
11-02-2013, 11:58 AM #63

Thanks for the pics!!!

Given that it is the oil supply for the mains, I definitely would want to use the MB nozzles because they have pop off valves so bellow 20PSI I believe it is, they shut off.

I would want to machine a flat area in the block, and then make a spacer block to recover any height difference so they are installed exactly as the 617a.

However I definitely would not want to just start carving on a good block lol... I would want to cut a block in half to see how much material there is to work with and mock one up first.

I am not totally apposed to making custom nozzles, but that is just more time that I have so little of... Hell I still have a pump calibration machine to finish!! Lol

OM616
10mm MW

572
09-26-2014, 07:17 PM #64
I just got home with a 616 block with a hole in the side to see if there is enough material to modify the block for piston squirters.

I still have to pick up the 617a for the parts. Slow progress, but progress none the less..
OM616
09-26-2014, 07:17 PM #64

I just got home with a 616 block with a hole in the side to see if there is enough material to modify the block for piston squirters.

I still have to pick up the 617a for the parts. Slow progress, but progress none the less..

Edian727
Dreams of 8mm 617

127
10-01-2014, 09:51 AM #65
so did they fit squirters to turbo motor because they felt oiling for the wrist pin was inadequate? or inadequite for a oversized(iirc turbo wrist pin is bigger)wrist pin? bet thats why under oiled 616 and 615 throw #1 rod. just a thought.
Edian727
10-01-2014, 09:51 AM #65

so did they fit squirters to turbo motor because they felt oiling for the wrist pin was inadequate? or inadequite for a oversized(iirc turbo wrist pin is bigger)wrist pin? bet thats why under oiled 616 and 615 throw #1 rod. just a thought.

Simpler=Better
PORTED HEAD

2,127
10-01-2014, 12:04 PM #66
The squirters cool the piston.

Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me

Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-01-2014, 12:04 PM #66

The squirters cool the piston.

Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me


Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?

CRD4x4
CompoundSuperTurboDiesel4x4!

399
10-01-2014, 02:02 PM #67
Are the oil squirters from a 617 the same as those from 603?

(10-01-2014, 12:04 PM)Simpler=Better The squirters cool the piston.

Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me

'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
CRD4x4
10-01-2014, 02:02 PM #67

Are the oil squirters from a 617 the same as those from 603?

(10-01-2014, 12:04 PM)Simpler=Better The squirters cool the piston.

Mr. OM616-I might have a line on a set of squirters off a 617. PM me


'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project

Simpler=Better
PORTED HEAD

2,127
10-02-2014, 09:11 AM #68
   
   
5 of these badboys available, a 617 block with 1 scored liner, 4 looking ok liners, and a crank that appears to be okay-although one of the main caps has a 615 part number?!?

If you need more pics/dimensions I can get them for you

Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-02-2014, 09:11 AM #68

   
   
5 of these badboys available, a 617 block with 1 scored liner, 4 looking ok liners, and a crank that appears to be okay-although one of the main caps has a 615 part number?!?

If you need more pics/dimensions I can get them for you


Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?

OM616
10mm MW

572
10-02-2014, 10:21 AM #69
Simpler=Better, many thanks for the great close ups!!

I am planning on picking up a 617a engine in state to rob the pistons, rods, squirters, and use the block as a template.

The 616 block I have is still in the truck, but looking at your pics, I am questioning, 1 if there is enough room for the 617a squiter between the cylinder and the oil supply in the block which is humped up, and 2 the oil inlet to the squirter is not in a good place given where the 616 supply is in the block.

I definitely want to have the 20psi check balls in the squirters so I was hopeing that I could use the 617a ones, but I may have to make custom ones, which does not really excite me in the least.
OM616
10-02-2014, 10:21 AM #69

Simpler=Better, many thanks for the great close ups!!

I am planning on picking up a 617a engine in state to rob the pistons, rods, squirters, and use the block as a template.

The 616 block I have is still in the truck, but looking at your pics, I am questioning, 1 if there is enough room for the 617a squiter between the cylinder and the oil supply in the block which is humped up, and 2 the oil inlet to the squirter is not in a good place given where the 616 supply is in the block.

I definitely want to have the 20psi check balls in the squirters so I was hopeing that I could use the 617a ones, but I may have to make custom ones, which does not really excite me in the least.

OM616
10mm MW

572
10-07-2014, 04:01 PM #70
I just got the block out of the back of the truck, and got the pistons and crank out of it.

The #1 rod is completely gone as is the lower half of the piston, split at the wrist pin. All the bearings are like new, and the oil pump looked to be in great shape, so it was not a lack of oil that caused the rod to disintegrated.

Anyway... After looking at the bottom of the cylinders, there is no way that 617a squirters will ever work in the 616 block. The oil supply is in the right area, but the casting is not even close to machineable in order to mount them.

I have been figuring I would have to make some if I want them, and it looks like each one may be unique to each cylinder. I will have them printed out of aluminum so they will be just like the real thing, but made for the 616 block with some careful machining to the block for them.
OM616
10-07-2014, 04:01 PM #70

I just got the block out of the back of the truck, and got the pistons and crank out of it.

The #1 rod is completely gone as is the lower half of the piston, split at the wrist pin. All the bearings are like new, and the oil pump looked to be in great shape, so it was not a lack of oil that caused the rod to disintegrated.

Anyway... After looking at the bottom of the cylinders, there is no way that 617a squirters will ever work in the 616 block. The oil supply is in the right area, but the casting is not even close to machineable in order to mount them.

I have been figuring I would have to make some if I want them, and it looks like each one may be unique to each cylinder. I will have them printed out of aluminum so they will be just like the real thing, but made for the 616 block with some careful machining to the block for them.

OM616
10mm MW

572
10-08-2014, 05:02 PM #71
Well I got the block up on an operating table and under a working light lol... After spending some time looking at it, I came to the conclusion that I need to get a 617a squirter to see just how small it really is. It’s hard to get perspective from the zoomed in pics lol...

There still may be a chance that the 617a squirters may work, I'm fearful of machining back into the side wall too far, I don't want any cracking long term.

I also noticed while inspecting the pistons that there is concentrated scuffing where the two rear PC ports are, obviously heating the piston at those locations causing more local expansion. Nothing scary, the anti detonation grooves are still there, just worn a little more in those spots. Could have been from running it to hard before it was warmed up in the winter time.. I think cooled piston domes would be a plus for sure when really pushing the power for sustained periods of time, but for short bursts, quality NA pistons would probably be just fine IMOP.
OM616
10-08-2014, 05:02 PM #71

Well I got the block up on an operating table and under a working light lol... After spending some time looking at it, I came to the conclusion that I need to get a 617a squirter to see just how small it really is. It’s hard to get perspective from the zoomed in pics lol...

There still may be a chance that the 617a squirters may work, I'm fearful of machining back into the side wall too far, I don't want any cracking long term.

I also noticed while inspecting the pistons that there is concentrated scuffing where the two rear PC ports are, obviously heating the piston at those locations causing more local expansion. Nothing scary, the anti detonation grooves are still there, just worn a little more in those spots. Could have been from running it to hard before it was warmed up in the winter time.. I think cooled piston domes would be a plus for sure when really pushing the power for sustained periods of time, but for short bursts, quality NA pistons would probably be just fine IMOP.

Edian727
Dreams of 8mm 617

127
10-08-2014, 06:30 PM #72
thats interesting. i always thought the #1 rod throw due to low oil and the wrist pin not receiving proper lubrication. seems like its something to do more with the wrist pin itself(or the rod) but im not sure why it would happen to #1 a significant amount more then any other rod.

I wonder how much lower comp would help? i mean to between 18-19. Seems to do wonders for the old chevy 6.2. stock is 22, and gutless, turbo it and you have power but no longevity(unless you live by your pyro), but it seems marine piston(they r 18) will solve the longevity problem. this is not from personal experience just wat ive heard.
Edian727
10-08-2014, 06:30 PM #72

thats interesting. i always thought the #1 rod throw due to low oil and the wrist pin not receiving proper lubrication. seems like its something to do more with the wrist pin itself(or the rod) but im not sure why it would happen to #1 a significant amount more then any other rod.

I wonder how much lower comp would help? i mean to between 18-19. Seems to do wonders for the old chevy 6.2. stock is 22, and gutless, turbo it and you have power but no longevity(unless you live by your pyro), but it seems marine piston(they r 18) will solve the longevity problem. this is not from personal experience just wat ive heard.

jackfrost1031
Unregistered

 
07-10-2015, 02:40 PM #73
What about building up the block with brazing rod to have a boss to build on?
jackfrost1031
07-10-2015, 02:40 PM #73

What about building up the block with brazing rod to have a boss to build on?

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