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+--- Thread: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? (/showthread.php?tid=6627)
Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - m1tch - 07-12-2015
Hi all,
Bit of an odd one to post up but I think it might work and also be quite unique, I have (quite randomly) a bleed air turbine from a commercial jet air craft, a bleed air turbine uses air from the main engines to run a compressor to do things like compress cabin air when at altitude.
Its basically a turbocharger, but uses air instead of exhaust gasses to compress air - basically a turbo with 2 cold sides.
I was thinking that I could look at using this in my E300 sleeper project - I could use the compressed air from the stock turbo and feed it into the inlet on the bleed air turbine which would then compress additional air and feed it into the engine. The boost control would actually be still on the stock turbo to limit the boost being fed into the inlet of the bleed air turbine which would then limit the overall boost levels.
The compressor side is very large but with a fairly small inlet and might also mean that it wouldn't need to spin up as fast to give a large flow of air - I will take a photo of it but it might be something a bit different to try out - as far as I know its never been tried before.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - fega72 - 07-12-2015
(07-12-2015, 09:05 AM)m1tch Hi all,
Bit of an odd one to post up but I think it might work and also be quite unique, I have (quite randomly) a bleed air turbine from a commercial jet air craft, a bleed air turbine uses air from the main engines to run a compressor to do things like compress cabin air when at altitude.
Its basically a turbocharger, but uses air instead of exhaust gasses to compress air - basically a turbo with 2 cold sides.
I was thinking that I could look at using this in my E300 sleeper project - I could use the compressed air from the stock turbo and feed it into the inlet on the bleed air turbine which would then compress additional air and feed it into the engine. The boost control would actually be still on the stock turbo to limit the boost being fed into the inlet of the bleed air turbine which would then limit the overall boost levels.
The compressor side is very large but with a fairly small inlet and might also mean that it wouldn't need to spin up as fast to give a large flow of air - I will take a photo of it but it might be something a bit different to try out - as far as I know its never been tried before.
Do you have enough space in the engine bay for that turbine?
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - m1tch - 07-12-2015
(07-12-2015, 09:15 AM)fega72(07-12-2015, 09:05 AM)m1tch Hi all,
Bit of an odd one to post up but I think it might work and also be quite unique, I have (quite randomly) a bleed air turbine from a commercial jet air craft, a bleed air turbine uses air from the main engines to run a compressor to do things like compress cabin air when at altitude.
Its basically a turbocharger, but uses air instead of exhaust gasses to compress air - basically a turbo with 2 cold sides.
I was thinking that I could look at using this in my E300 sleeper project - I could use the compressed air from the stock turbo and feed it into the inlet on the bleed air turbine which would then compress additional air and feed it into the engine. The boost control would actually be still on the stock turbo to limit the boost being fed into the inlet of the bleed air turbine which would then limit the overall boost levels.
The compressor side is very large but with a fairly small inlet and might also mean that it wouldn't need to spin up as fast to give a large flow of air - I will take a photo of it but it might be something a bit different to try out - as far as I know its never been tried before.
Do you have enough space in the engine bay for that turbine?
The engine bay in the W210 is massive and the turbo is set a fair way back, I will measure it up but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't, its large but I know that the HX35/HX40/HX55 turbos are probably about as large plus the fact that I can mount it off to one side due to it just needing to be connected via hoses rather than the exhaust manifold.
Here is the turbine, its built by Garrett - some of the pipework can be removed though as it obviously isn't being fitted to a jet anymore!
![[Image: DSC_0066_zps58yjdbjw.jpg]](http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/DSC_0066_zps58yjdbjw.jpg.html)
Air inlet is here, you can see that it works the same as if it were a hot side plus the regulator much like a wastegate:
![[Image: DSC_0067_zpsimck4vy5.jpg]](http://s93.photobucket.com/user/m1tch_2006/media/DSC_0067_zpsimck4vy5.jpg.html)
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - fega72 - 07-12-2015
Nice one
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - m1tch - 07-12-2015
(07-12-2015, 09:38 AM)fega72 Nice one
Might try and attach the end of an intercooler hose to the inlet and see if it does spin up at all, as you can see its fairly large - just thought it might be slightly different!
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - MFSuper90 - 07-12-2015
I'm not sure if that would work very well. You use the cold side of the stock charger to drive the other one if I read correctly? Exhaust gas temperature plays a big role in spooling a turbo because of it's expansion vs cold air.
So would route both into the intake?
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - barrote - 07-12-2015
Fluid dinamics , boys !!! make some googling and some math and u´ll soon find out watts going to happen with that idea.
i can see that compressor being a low speed compressor being able to produce a quite amount of air at 20.000 rpm, if that so u can hook it to the crankshaft and problably will be better than a roots type. of course a lot of ingenuity need to be at play.
i use to work with aviation things
, and the hose where this inlet is conected is a far larger compressor usually able to compress air at a reason of 20/1 minimum, matter of speaking this air is not very far from 20ATM, disconsidering heat gain and compresibility, i´m positivelly sure that will be very dificult to gain whatsoever. i take my hat and u should give it a try, maths sometimes is wrong.
regards
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - m1tch - 07-12-2015
Its worth a try, its not something that has been tried before and was more of an experiment really, I am looking at a few other options, one of them being making a hybrid turbo using the stock setup - I have got a Garrett HG turbo off a land cruiser which has over 200bhp as standard at 7psi - the compressor is much larger but has around the same size exhaust housing.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - barrote - 07-12-2015
for a 606, u can install 2 gt22V with 60mfs , and u will have boost that u can´t handle, with very few lag. and lag will depend on with type of charge cooler u want to install. a air/water with gas aid will be the best.
for fuel a 150cc pump will be a 500hp pump, u can have one from dieselmeken , or one from me or from somebody else.. as long as it pump out , thats fine.
and of couse there is a lot more u have to change in that engine to produce 500hp consistently, and day driveability.
fellas from USA, like holsets, a lot of air at very high rpm, they manage it considering they have very few knowledge about diesels. people in europe for the other hand are using hybrid turbos , assembled in proved rigs like the gt22V´s gt25´s and 27´s .
For my likes a day driver with a lot of balls in the low rpms is ideal.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - baldur - 07-12-2015
That unit is going to need an awful lot of air volume to drive it. You're better off pumping that air directly into the engine rather than compressing air to run another air compressor for that purpose.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - NZScott - 07-13-2015
Doesn't seem terribly efficient to me either- a novel concept though none the less
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - tjts1 - 07-13-2015
(07-12-2015, 09:05 AM)m1tch Hi all,So your engine does work to compress air then you bleed off some of that compressed air to do more work to compress air to replace the compressed air we lost running the bleed air device. The device has mechanical losses so whatever ever air ammount its able to compress will be less than the amount it took to run the device in the first place. Am I missing something?
Bit of an odd one to post up but I think it might work and also be quite unique, I have (quite randomly) a bleed air turbine from a commercial jet air craft, a bleed air turbine uses air from the main engines to run a compressor to do things like compress cabin air when at altitude.
Its basically a turbocharger, but uses air instead of exhaust gasses to compress air - basically a turbo with 2 cold sides.
I was thinking that I could look at using this in my E300 sleeper project - I could use the compressed air from the stock turbo and feed it into the inlet on the bleed air turbine which would then compress additional air and feed it into the engine. The boost control would actually be still on the stock turbo to limit the boost being fed into the inlet of the bleed air turbine which would then limit the overall boost levels.
The compressor side is very large but with a fairly small inlet and might also mean that it wouldn't need to spin up as fast to give a large flow of air - I will take a photo of it but it might be something a bit different to try out - as far as I know its never been tried before.
In an aircraft these things are designed to take a small volume of very high pressure (10-30bar), high temperature air from the later stages of the jet engine compressor and create a large volume of low pressure (.5-1bar) air for the cabin. I just don't see how this woud be useful in an internal combustion engine unless you can power it with exhaust gas which its not designed to use.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - lajuz - 07-13-2015
Has been done before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk
![[Image: 6090876436_6cfa928241_b_d.jpg]](https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6089/6090876436_6cfa928241_b_d.jpg)
And different approach/ALS using turbo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_qCd6Lx7pE
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - baldur - 07-13-2015
In that video is not a bleed air turbine but a self contained gas turbine engine being used to provide charge air pressure without the use of a turbocharger.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - lajuz - 07-13-2015
http://raceenginedesign.biz/Manic-Beattie.htm
He uses a helicopter APU. Yes i know he doesent use a Turbo but rather the bleed air.
The Subaru uses technology that has been used for some long time. That car in specific uses Pectel ECU.
But this is a Anti-lag strategy.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - raysorenson - 07-13-2015
(07-13-2015, 07:45 AM)lajuz http://raceenginedesign.biz/Manic-Beattie.htm
He uses a helicopter APU. Yes i know he doesent use a Turbo but rather the bleed air.
The Subaru uses technology that has been used for some long time. That car in specific uses Pectel ECU.
But this is a Anti-lag strategy.
What a fun read. Thank you.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - barrote - 07-14-2015
thats not his full invention ,
or is not new in veicles ,
the leopard german thank uses the same principle and they cal it "hyperboost", basically is a 1000hp diesel engine wich when engaged in combat manouvers is boosted by a turbine engine. the thing can have the same performance as the most advanced american built(turbine and electrical transmission) , at a fraction of the fuel cost.
the thing is wich came first? egg or chiken?
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - barrote - 07-14-2015
some info about that, the leopard 2 power pack is said to be hyperboosted, i was told by a tank mechanic. although i cant find many info about it , but the principle is there.
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/suralmo-hyperbar-engines-for-use-in-tanks.586443/
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leclerc/
they do exist, i just wonder why is this not so wide spread, most modern battle tanks have a small turboshaft engine for APU, wich are able to drive a rather big compressor..... i wonder ....
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - CRD4x4 - 07-14-2015
Here's today's don't try this @ home idea:
Early human worn "jet packs" used concentrated, pressurized hydrogen peroxide and a precious metal catalyst to create boost in the form of high pressure steam (see chemistry 101).
In theroy; a clean catalytic converter could be sprayed with peroxide found at beauty supply shops in concentrated form (for bleaching hair) and create some degree of steam pressure. You see where I'm going here?
The trick will be not melting your face off. That shit is very dangerous and not to be played with.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - whitey1986 - 07-14-2015
Also parasitic losses to consider. It would be far more reasonable to drive the air compressor from the engine perhaps using a gearing system to create boost at low rpms
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - m1tch - 07-14-2015
I will have a play around with it, I am guessing it wouldn't need a huge level of boost to get a high air flow - I am looking at lots of other options, currently working on making a stock hybrid turbo but could look into a supercharger and turbocharger together.
RE: Using bleed air turbine as turbo/supercharger? - Turbo - 07-15-2015
That is part of an air condition unit for an air plan, if you want to use it to the intake air as a super cooling (brayton cycle) circuit why not if the flow is right, but you must have a lot of energy in the exhaust like high temperature to build a lot of boost to drive it, not wast gating anything and boost all out. I must say I am not so sure how the diesel engine will react when the intake get -50 degree c? And there is the water problem that will freeze to ice, how practical will work out specially with a radial intake turbine, that will be more potential on a gasoline engine since it has higher exhaust temp, but some maps of compressor and turbine is needed in he first place to see how it match, simply it will not just accidental work.