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+--- Thread: Headgaskets? (/showthread.php?tid=5697)
Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-02-2014
Ok so my head is off my om603. Once everything is ready to go together I want a good strong seal. It looks like people use the om606 gasket and I see on rock auto they have both composite and MLS steel gaskets. Id imagine id want an mls? Any difference in head and block prep? Also Ive never heard anything about head studs, so im assuming that the bolts do a good job of clamping since theres soo many bolts?
RE: Headgaskets? - Simpler=Better - 07-02-2014
AFAIK, MLS is the super-duper way to do it. Just make sure your block and head are clean/flat as always.
RE: Headgaskets? - mbz123 - 07-03-2014
Surgically so, that's the deal with the steal. One minor imperfection when using mls and your day is ruined along with automagically re-scheduled for dejavu hg install. Rinse, repeat.
On the bright side, methinks you will get job accomplished much quicker second time around. Anybody wanna go for #3?!?! JK
Good luck bro, I'll be watching.
MBZ123
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-04-2014
(07-03-2014, 04:12 PM)mbz123 Surgically so, that's the deal with the steal. One minor imperfection when using mls and your day is ruined along with automagically re-scheduled for dejavu hg install. Rinse, repeat.
On the bright side, methinks you will get job accomplished much quicker second time around. Anybody wanna go for #3?!?! JK
Good luck bro, I'll be watching.
MBZ123
Dang I was hoping a good smooth sanding on the block and good machined head would do it. Howbout the mls with the coating?
RE: Headgaskets? - EDH_Performance - 07-05-2014
Use fine sandpaper on head and block....Coat the mls with gasket seal spray, locktite have one...then you will be good
Use fine sandpaper on head and block....Coat the mls with gasket seal spray, locktite have one...then you will be good
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-05-2014
(07-05-2014, 10:00 AM)EDH_Performance Use fine sandpaper on head and block....Coat the mls with gasket seal spray, locktite have one...then you will be good
Use fine sandpaper on head and block....Coat the mls with gasket seal spray, locktite have one...then you will be good
That sounds good. How fine a grit? 150? Or more?
RE: Headgaskets? - Simpler=Better - 07-07-2014
(07-05-2014, 11:41 AM)Insane190d(07-05-2014, 10:00 AM)EDH_Performance Use fine sandpaper on head and block....Coat the mls with gasket seal spray, locktite have one...then you will be good
Use fine sandpaper on head and block....Coat the mls with gasket seal spray, locktite have one...then you will be good
That sounds good. How fine a grit? 150? Or more?
150 is gravel. You want 800 or higher, personally I'd hit it with 1000
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-07-2014
block cleaned with scotch , brown , and head faced. sand paper 120 is fine too.
BTW with that amount of bolts 45º more will twist the head and smash the gasket all the way.
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-07-2014
We'll I do see the mls gaskets with a rubber coating on top and bottom for a good water seal. Id imagine that will seal it good without having to make the surface look like glass? Also what is the torqeing procedure for the blots?
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-08-2014
looks like u are a begginer, maybe it wont work.......
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/01-5800hx.pdf : here u can find the MB service manual procedure. depending on your experience, it maybe dificult to understand.
BTW it is not water or oil that u want to seal, it is compression dear friend. And compression gas is hot and many atmosphere (BAR) if it is not done well the gasket will end up burned and gas excaping, engine will end up same way as it was.
What is the reason u removed the head?
Ps:continue screaming i´ll aid u!!!
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-08-2014
(07-08-2014, 01:37 AM)barrote looks like u are a begginer, maybe it wont work.......
http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/01-5800hx.pdf : here u can find the MB service manual procedure. depending on your experience, it maybe dificult to understand.
BTW it is not water or oil that u want to seal, it is compression dear friend. And compression gas is hot and many atmosphere (BAR) if it is not done well the gasket will end up burned and gas excaping, engine will end up same way as it was.
What is the reason u removed the head?
Ps:continue screaming i´ll aid u!!!
Im not a retard dude I know what a headgasket does and I can sure follow the procedure. Just diddnt know it. But that should come in handy. Thanks!
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-08-2014
hey, hey, peace comrade.
Sure u do know about head gaskets!!! one can read that.
have fun and good luck, any doubt feel free to ask
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-08-2014
(07-08-2014, 07:29 AM)barrote hey, hey, peace comrade.
Sure u do know about head gaskets!!! one can read that.
have fun and good luck, any doubt feel free to ask
We shall see time will tell
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-11-2014
Ok so one thing im still not clear about is if the om606 gasket can be used on om603? Is it the same thickness as om603 bolt and water passages same?
RE: Headgaskets? - raysorenson - 07-11-2014
It has been done before. I hear-tell that you need to drill some holes in the 606 gasket. Both the standard 606 and the "service" gasket, which is thicker, are both thinner than the 603 gasket. I can't cite any numbers off the top of my head, but it didn't take much searching before I figured it out.
I eventually became convinced that a stock HG could hold 400hp and stopped worrying about a 606 HG.
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-12-2014
, hum.... 603 HG does not fit 606, same as the 602 does not fit the 605, it is not a question of drilling holes, is a question of missing materiel, in one corner of the timing chain housing, it leaks, well it will leak oil vapor only. The opposite is a question of diff holes and too much materiel. when one look at the very small details become convinced that one can securely say that it does not fit. 
sorry
regards
RE: Headgaskets? - Petar - 07-12-2014
you understood it wrong.They are trying to use om606 head gaket on a om603 engine
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-12-2014
No i did not , is the same problem with the holes, the multivalve HG are very difficult to get them sealing right at least the metal layered ones we have in my country, i´ll give a finger to lay my hands on one of the old ones. The old MB wich were discontinued , yes those u can do a lot with them.
Were discontinued
almost 20 year ago. U know what really seals ??? is copper !!! and u can use several layers on top of each. the thing is where to get copper sheet in .8mm? well at affordable price.
Usually what kills the HG is heat, people roast the engines and the shrinking and expanding of that heating cycles kills the HG.
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-15-2014
(07-12-2014, 11:10 AM)barrote No i did not , is the same problem with the holes, the multivalve HG are very difficult to get them sealing right at least the metal layered ones we have in my country, i´ll give a finger to lay my hands on one of the old ones. The old MB wich were discontinued , yes those u can do a lot with them.
Were discontinued
U know what really seals ??? is copper !!! and u can use several layers on top of each. the thing is where to get copper sheet in .8mm? well at affordable price.
Usually what kills the HG is heat, people roast the engines and the shrinking and expanding of that heating cycles kills the HG.
So your saying if I cut thin sheets of copper and layered them without anything else it will hold? Im sure the cuts would have to be perfect by a waterjet?
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-16-2014
In the states u have cheap access to many things that we don't have in my country, yes a copper gasket is the best thing u can use for extreme heat, aluminum is good as well , but aluminum comes as alloys and sometimes alloys are reactant with cooling fluids, don't know of any type of aluminum alloy good for head gaskets.
U can use 2 gaskets .4mm thick, or one .8mm, witch is the MB thickness, the trick is with bolt tightening, with a copper gasket u need re tight, at least 2 times. one after fire up and normal running at normal temp, and another after a hot run.
Special consideration should be paid to bolt "elastic joint"
Copper is non magnetic, cutting should be obtained by laser, water jet, chisel whatever u think can provide a accurate cutting, blow torch and knife wont work
Is of no use to have all this trouble if u don't intend to run the engine extremely hot. At norm temp a OEM gasket is fine even if u manage to boost 3 BAR.
Regards
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-16-2014
(07-16-2014, 02:47 PM)barrote In the states u have cheap access to many things that we don't have in my country, yes a copper gasket is the best thing u can use for extreme heat, aluminum is good as well , but aluminum comes as alloys and sometimes alloys are reactant with cooling fluids, don't know of any type of aluminum alloy good for head gaskets.Sounds like I might try this just to see if it works, but .8mm seems a little thin compared to the stock 603 gasket not that I really have a clue..
U can use 2 gaskets .4mm thick, or one .8mm, witch is the MB thickness, the trick is with bolt tightening, with a copper gasket u need re tight, at least 2 times. one after fire up and normal running at normal temp, and another after a hot run.
Special consideration should be paid to bolt "elastic joint"
Copper is non magnetic, cutting should be obtained by laser, water jet, chisel whatever u think can provide a accurate cutting, blow torch and knife wont work
Is of no use to have all this trouble if u don't intend to run the engine extremely hot. At norm temp a OEM gasket is fine even if u manage to boost 3 BAR.
Regards
So either way its a good hold? No cooling leaks from it beeing just bare metal? My friend has a water jet .
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-17-2014
Well, u try that i´ll give u my opinion on the tight scheme.
i think is .8mm the stock gasket. u can measure a used one. should be between 1 and .8mm . if repair size was used
Run the engine at normal temp lets say during one hour in idle, so that it heats up uniformly, retight 45º the big bolts, measure TQ aplied. u´ll need a big tool. confirm tq at the small ones.
retight after 1000 km with the measured TQ.
and post results.
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-17-2014
COnfbarrote' pid='65166' dateline='1405588592']
Well, u try that i´ll give u my opinion on the tight scheme.
i think is .8mm the stock gasket. u can measure a used one. should be between 1 and .8mm . if repair size was used
Run the engine at normal temp lets say during one hour in idle, so that it heats up uniformly, retight 45º the big bolts, measure TQ aplied. u´ll need a big tool. confirm tq at the small ones.
retight after 1000 km with the measured TQ.
and post results.
[/quote]
Ok cool. Im just confused on how to go about torque of head bolts. Tq them to Mercedes standards then run it and tighten just the long bolts 40*?
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-18-2014
hy, u´re aware of metal shrinking and expansion??, well copper does not behave normally tend to move very few, compared to aluminum alloys. Other point is hardness, copper is a hard material but it needs to be compressed to make a good seal, that is why is necessary to re-tight, assuming the OEM tight values work. maybe u can make it seal without re-tight, i don't recommend i´ve done it before.
OEM numbers are something like 30nm, 180ºC ten minutes after 90ºC,
add run the engine till hot 1 hour idle, retight 45ºC and mesure TQ involved,
run the engine without abuse 1000k confirm TQ measured.
after run the engine with abuse.
regards
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 07-18-2014
(07-18-2014, 03:03 AM)barrote hy, u´re aware of metal shrinking and expansion??, well copper does not behave normally tend to move very few, compared to aluminum alloys. Other point is hardness, copper is a hard material but it needs to be compressed to make a good seal, that is why is necessary to re-tight, assuming the OEM tight values work. maybe u can make it seal without re-tight, i don't recommend i´ve done it before.
OEM numbers are something like 30nm, 180ºC ten minutes after 90ºC,
add run the engine till hot 1 hour idle, retight 45ºC and mesure TQ involved,
run the engine without abuse 1000k confirm TQ measured.
after run the engine with abuse.
regards
Sounds good! Gonna be a while but ill keep an update
RE: Headgaskets? - barrote - 07-18-2014
will be waiting for your findings!!!
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 09-19-2014
So its back up and running good now no over heating! I just went with the stock headgasket.... I guess everyone says its good for 3bar and around 450hp? I did the tq procedures given with the gasket. Final steps were 90 degrees and then another 90, should that be good or will re torqueing be requiered??
RE: Headgaskets? - raysorenson - 09-19-2014
No, retorque required. Stretch bolts can take up the slack.
RE: Headgaskets? - Insane190d - 09-19-2014
(09-19-2014, 07:46 AM)raysorenson No, retorque required. Stretch bolts can take up the slack.
Ok cool so I dont have to worry? Even with high boost?
RE: Headgaskets? - raysorenson - 09-20-2014
I'm going with don't worry :-)