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+--- Thread: Is it right HX40 on om606? (/showthread.php?tid=2409)
Is it right HX40 on om606? - Savitas - 03-17-2011
Hi guys,
I'm staring my project. I have bought OM606 engine, now looking for om603 pump and bigger turbo. My target is 400-450 hp. Om603 pump will be modyfied with 7.5 elements. Local Holset dealer adviced to use 3591999 or 3593920, this is HX40 turbos. Is he right? He couldn't tell housing size for me. What I'm looking for is HX40 with 14 cm housing. Am I on the right way?
Thanks for your advice
Alius
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - E300TSC - 03-17-2011
Hi Alius, the HX 40 will work for your goals but will have some lag unless you fabricate a proper flowing exhaust manifold. I'm using an HX 40 for my project but I'm not sure of the size.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - Savitas - 03-18-2011
Who could give me advice about optimum turbine and compressor inducer,exducer size? I still think housing size should be 14 cm^2.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - muuris - 03-18-2011
(03-18-2011, 04:07 AM)Savitas I still think housing size should be 14 cm^2.Or 16cm^2.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - jeemu - 03-18-2011
(03-18-2011, 02:42 PM)muurisI would take that also(03-18-2011, 04:07 AM)Savitas I still think housing size should be 14 cm^2.Or 16cm^2.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - E300TSC - 03-18-2011
The size of the housing is stamped in the divided inlet to the turbine...
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - Savitas - 03-19-2011
Why are you suggesting 16 cm^2 instead 14 cm^2? Do you thing 14 cm^2 could restrict gas flow out at hight RPM's?
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - ForcedInduction - 03-19-2011
Not on a 603. A 16cm turbine would be VERY slow to spool up and would make the car bad to drive normally on the street.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - jeemu - 03-19-2011
Om606, Mynä 7mm, Holset HX40 #17
![[Image: full]](http://jeemu.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Kaikkee/merssu1.jpg/full)
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - George3soccer - 03-19-2011
god those are some nice numbers.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - E300TSC - 03-19-2011
That's pretty much the profile I'm shooting for. Maybe with an earlier rise due to the supercharger...
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - Savitas - 03-19-2011
Jeemu, nice dyno sheet. Could you get us part number of that holset?
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - jeemu - 03-19-2011
(03-19-2011, 12:32 PM)Savitas Jeemu, nice dyno sheet. Could you get us part number of that holset?That is normal Scania Holset. Kompressor 60mm and Turbine 65mm with #17 housing with WG
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - ForcedInduction - 03-19-2011
(03-19-2011, 06:41 AM)jeemu Om606, Mynä 7mm, Holset HX40 #17
Thanks for the example, that fits "slow to spool up and would make the car bad to drive normally on the street" perfectly.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - muuris - 03-20-2011
(03-19-2011, 05:36 PM)ForcedInduction Thanks for the example, that fits "slow to spool up and would make the car bad to drive normally on the street" perfectly.If you only had driven one of these, you'd know they are more daily drivable than a normal 300d.
Some people want this. We all get that you don't, that's fine but stop the lingo and be happy with your 617.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - 300D50 - 03-20-2011
It's just a turbo swap away, worst case is he'll re-sell and buy one with a smaller housing if the spool time is an issue.
As long as everyone understands the implications of going larger, I'd say we're good.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - George3soccer - 03-20-2011
I have no problem with having a motor run just like that on the street, yet alone be a daily driver. Looks to me its perfect, if it did spool slower then i would like then I would play around with the turbo just like 300D50 said.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - ForcedInduction - 03-20-2011
(03-20-2011, 02:14 AM)muuris you'd know they are more daily drivable than a normal 300d.The T3's turbine is 43mm/62mm and .43ar/6.5cm
The HX40's turbine is 64mm/76mm and 14cm is equivalent to .97ar while 16cm is 1.13ar.
Its physically impossible for an HX40 to perform anything close to like a T3 unless you beat the piss out of the engine to make it spool up. TheT3 will spool up under easy driving around 2000rpm, your dyno sheet shows an HX40 doesn't spool up even under full throttle until 3500rpm.
Quote:if it did spool slower"slower" isn't an accurate description here, the correct description would be "if it spools without having to flog the engine".
An HX40 isn't very responsive even on the 8.3L Cummins ISC it was designed for. An OM603 at 3500rpm flows the same mass of air as an ISC at its 1300rpm peak torque. There is no way a 603 is going to spool that turbo at any lower rpm with a 14cm housing. A 16cm housing would push that above 4000rpm.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - yankneck696 - 03-20-2011
At 2600 RPMs Jeemu is making more power than a stock sized 617 pump can put out (as I remember 145ish hp). Oh, 292.5.... Pound Feet at the same RPM. I would consider that a wonderful daily driver. I wish my F250 had that. I would gladly trade my 302 for his engine.
Ed
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - ForcedInduction - 03-20-2011
(03-20-2011, 07:35 PM)yankneck696 At 2600 RPMs Jeemu is making more power than a stock sized 617 pump can put out (as I remember 145ish hp).He also has a newer generation engine that naturally flows air far better than a 617, a 605 isn't comparable to a 617. Not to mention that he is injecting far more fuel than any stock MB engine is capable of.
Quote:Oh, 292.5.... Pound Feet at the same RPM. I would consider that a wonderful daily driver.Yes, if you consider "flooring it everywhere you drive" as "daily driving".
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - MJF - 03-21-2011
You really need to drive one and stop looking only theory.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - George3soccer - 03-21-2011
I dont know what was done to that 606, but there are a few ways to get that boost to spool up faster then what it is doing right at the moment. So you say 3,500rpm is where it starts to act up, you could get that motor to do that same lets say 3,000rpm with a few modifications to the exhust and intake (not sure if there was anything done to it yet) So that makes it 1000rpm away from reacting somewhat a stock t3 would be doing. and on a side note you have allot more hp available at that rpm range then the stock t3. I would take the hx40 over the t3 anyday, even if it takes flogging the motor.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - muuris - 03-21-2011
(03-20-2011, 07:00 PM)ForcedInduction(03-20-2011, 02:14 AM)muuris you'd know they are more daily drivable than a normal 300d.The T3's turbine is 43mm/62mm and .43ar/6.5cm
The HX40's turbine is 64mm/76mm and 14cm is equivalent to .97ar while 16cm is 1.13ar.
Its physically impossible for an HX40 to perform anything close to like a T3 unless you beat the piss out of the engine to make it spool up.
Did I say HX40 spools up as fast as T3?
I compared these "undriveable" engines to 300d, which is N/A. It doesn't have T3, HX40 or any other. You say it is not a good daily driver?
Drive one and stop moaning. Your theory has been proven wrong by practice and experience. Of course 60x is more modern engine than 617, that doesn't make it less driveable. No one is stupid enough to put a T3 in 60x.
I don't find stock(ish) 617A glamorous even if you wrote ten books about it
I don't find 2500-3000rpm equal to "beat the piss out of the engine".
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - 300D50 - 03-21-2011
Hey, guys, no more personal jabs, or there will be possible points towards vacations..
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - ForcedInduction - 03-21-2011
(03-21-2011, 08:49 AM)MJF You really need to drive one and stop looking only theory.I have access to a fleet of 15 HX40 equipped vehicles. There is no possible way an HX40 can spool up better on a 3.0L engine than it can on an 8.3L engine. Stop lying.
Quote:So you say 3,500rpm is where it starts to act up, you could get that motor to do that same lets say 3,000rpm with a few modifications to the exhust and intakeThe only two ways to make a turbo spool up faster are to increase the exhaust volume or increase the exhaust velocity (VNT).
Quote:Did I say HX40 spools up as fast as T3?Yes. "more daily drivable than a normal 300d." The only possible way for that to be is to produce the same or better torque at the same rpms. Impossible without at least the same airflow, aka, boost. With the turbo not spooling up until 3500rpm the torque will be little better than that of a non-turbo engine.
Mod_edit: You've used up your freebie, next one won't be a blank.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - dieselboy - 03-21-2011
All of those isc 8.3L cummins are pigs and horriably detuned. But he's asking about a hx40 on a om606 not a 603, 617, 605.
There are plenty of videos showing a 606 with a hx40 and they are fine to cruise and then are silly when under boost.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - MJF - 03-22-2011
You can't know how those cars are to drive part throttle by looking dynosheets. When cruising normally, you don't need full spooling with hx40. And boost does not mean same as airflow.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - muuris - 03-22-2011
(03-21-2011, 11:10 PM)ForcedInductionQuote:Did I say HX40 spools up as fast as T3?Yes. "more daily drivable than a normal 300d."
Please re-read my post and keep in mind 300d is naturally aspirated = does NOT have any turbo.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - dieselboy - 03-22-2011
It can't be much worse than a n/a om606 when it's not in boost.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - jeemu - 03-22-2011
I put that dyno sheet to show Savitas how HX40 works at 606 on dyno.
But as we all know alla engine are differend so other can make more power than other "same" setup.
It all own choice.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - Savitas - 03-22-2011
(03-22-2011, 01:02 AM)jeemu I put that dyno sheet to show Savitas how HX40 works at 606 on dyno.
But as we all know alla engine are differend so other can make more power than other "same" setup.
It all own choice.
Thanks Jeemu for dyno sheet.
I'm not going to use my E36 with Om606 for daily drive, it is for some weekend race. As I see in dyno sheet, it could generate more than 300 Nm at 2000 RPM, it is what I'm looking for.
If you could tell us what other mods were made to this engine it would be great.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - jeemu - 03-22-2011
(03-22-2011, 04:11 AM)SavitasThat engine was ever open, so it s fully original.(03-22-2011, 01:02 AM)jeemu I put that dyno sheet to show Savitas how HX40 works at 606 on dyno.
But as we all know alla engine are differend so other can make more power than other "same" setup.
It all own choice.
Thanks Jeemu for dyno sheet.
I'm not going to use my E36 with Om606 for daily drive, it is for some weekend race. As I see in dyno sheet, it could generate more than 300 Nm at 2000 RPM, it is what I'm looking for.
If you could tell us what other mods were made to this engine it would be great.
Just exhaust, Mynä pump and Holset.
If less than 400hp is enough, put HX35 in it.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - atypicalguy - 01-06-2016
Great thread. Thanks jeemu and muuris. Wonder what fuel level that 7mm pump was set at for the dyno sheet
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - atypicalguy - 01-10-2016
Does anyone know anything about how the turbine bypass works on this build, or have any other information beyond this thread?
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=4&hl=en&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.mbsca.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D31%26t%3D63212%26start%3D90&usg=ALkJrhjDTIrAC9iKJfB5CTaIdqrZ-Bo2cw
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - Tito - 01-10-2016
Yeah the manifold feeds the small turbo and a big wastegate can open to breath freely to the big turbo using also exhaust gas from the small turbo. Then the big turbo blows into the small turbo and continues to the engine
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - atypicalguy - 01-10-2016
Thanks Tito. I realize it is a typical compound. But does the wastegate open from boost pressure or EMP? If emp, then what pressure, was it difficult to tune, did it have a "valley of death" where boost falls off before the big turbo spools up, and other specifics. Did it work well in ehe end? People always end up selling these compound setups, so they must not work all that well.
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - Hario' - 01-11-2016
(01-10-2016, 11:41 PM)atypicalguy Thanks Tito. I realize it is a typical compound. But does the wastegate open from boost pressure or EMP? If emp, then what pressure, was it difficult to tune, did it have a "valley of death" where boost falls off before the big turbo spools up, and other specifics. Did it work well in ehe end? People always end up selling these compound setups, so they must not work all that well.
atypicalguy, my compound build will use EMP to drive the interstage wastegate. Because the interstate wastegate is there to bypass the small HP turbo when it becomes a restriction (to exhaust gas flow).
I envisage the wastegate spring pressure should be set to similar pressure to the drive pressure requirement of the HP turbo's turbine.
Both the HP and LP turbo internal gates will control compressor output pressure, at least in theory.
That is how my design 'will work' anyway..
RE: Is it right HX40 on om606? - atypicalguy - 01-11-2016
(01-11-2016, 11:47 AM)Hario(01-10-2016, 11:41 PM)atypicalguy Thanks Tito. I realize it is a typical compound. But does the wastegate open from boost pressure or EMP? If emp, then what pressure, was it difficult to tune, did it have a "valley of death" where boost falls off before the big turbo spools up, and other specifics. Did it work well in ehe end? People always end up selling these compound setups, so they must not work all that well.
atypicalguy, my compound build will use EMP to drive the interstage wastegate. Because the interstate wastegate is there to bypass the small HP turbo when it becomes a restriction (to exhaust gas flow).
I envisage the wastegate spring pressure should be set to similar pressure to the drive pressure requirement of the HP turbo's turbine.
Both the HP and LP turbo internal gates will control compressor output pressure, at least in theory.
That is how my design 'will work' anyway..
It all sounds good. But it looks like not too many people have made it work very well. Choosing the correct turbochargers seems difficult.
I think the signal to the small turbo wastegate should be the difference between the intake and exhaust manifold pressures. It should open as the EMP approaches the IMP.
But the large turbo should have a wastegate driven by IMP only.
Maybe the hx30 and hx52 or something. Need to do some math to figure it all out!
Thanks for sharing,
Karl