Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?"

Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - Printable Version

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Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - 300D50 - 11-12-2010

I'm in a bit of a pickle.
I've got some interference between the frame and the front sump, as well as the swaybar.
I've heard that the turbo oil pumps don't hang down as low, so maybe ploping one in and removing a bit of the oil pan could work?

I'm contemplating remaking the pan for rear sump or a flat sump, since I need to cut out part of it to clear the starter, but I'm undecided...

Other options would be making a different pickup and decking the oil pan a few inches, doing a dry-sump setup with external pumps(last resort), or just trim the frame and angle the engine up in the front to clear the swaybar, and overfill slightly to deal with the oil pooling in the back.

Any thoughts?

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - DeliveryValve - 11-12-2010

Maybe do something like Kracken did. Cut a piece out of the pan and modified the oil pick up.

http://superturbodiesel.com/std/om617-4runner-t-1961.html#pid20608
[Image: IMG_1326.jpg]

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-12-2010

That's along the lines of what I was thinking of doing, good to see it's been done before.
I'm thinking I'll need to remove part of the flange on the cast pan since that hits frame as well, but if I already have to trim the frame to clear the harmonic balancer it's likely moot.

Looks like rear sump is out, that'd hit a crossmember.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - mr_manny - 11-13-2010

wow, looks like one of my threads may actually turn out to be useful :p

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/oil-pan-sump-options-for-om617s-t-1362.html

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-13-2010

Thank's Mr Manny, after looking through all of that, I'm convinced custom/modified lower pan is the way to go.
Also, it looks like the NA block can't take a turbo oil pump due to not having room for the needed chain sprocket, unless I'm overlooking something?
Are the lower pans interchangeable between turbo and NA, minus turbo oil drain and etc?
Same flange bolt pattern/seal locations? If I had access to a turbo engine I'd be able to do the comparisons myself, but you guys are my eyes on this one. Smile

Crud, there's no room on the crank for the extra sprocket... must be turbo blocks and cranks are ~ an inch longer?

So close and yet so far... Sad

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ForcedInduction - 11-14-2010

(11-13-2010, 11:29 PM)300D50 Are the lower pans interchangeable between turbo and NA, minus turbo oil drain and etc?

No, different bolt pattern.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 11-15-2010

(11-13-2010, 11:15 PM)mr_manny wow, looks like one of my threads may actually turn out to be useful :p

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/oil-pan-sump-options-for-om617s-t-1362.html

Someone mentioned the Gwagen oil pan.What's so good about that pan?I ask because my car is set up for a rear sump engine and I know I am gonna need some clearance.Mr_manny's solution won't work for me.I already know that I am gonna have to clearance my K member or find someone competent to build me a tubular K member.That AJE one has failed under to many cars for me to trust.

Anyone ever weigh an OM617 dressed out to run in a vehicle?Looks like my 3.8L gasser is 405lbs.I got a weight of 447lbs for a OM615.It didn't note if the engine was dressed or long block.Would that be close to the weight of an OM617 dressed out?

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-15-2010

I was going to make a full custom pan with a mid-pickup sump, but seeing as the turbo and NA pans have different bolt patterns it's easier to chop up my NA pan a bit for now, and do the turbo one right later on.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ForcedInduction - 11-15-2010

(11-15-2010, 03:24 PM)ben2go Someone mentioned the Gwagen oil pan.What's so good about that pan?

Its a single cast piece.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 11-15-2010

(11-15-2010, 06:04 PM)ForcedInduction
(11-15-2010, 03:24 PM)ben2go Someone mentioned the Gwagen oil pan.What's so good about that pan?

Its a single cast piece.

I see how that's better than a stamped steel unit.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ForcedInduction - 11-15-2010

I don't see it as a benefit since it loses all its impact absorption ability and its a major job to remove/repair. Even with a skidplate, I'd rather have a pan that bends instead of shatters.
From a modification standpoint it gives more options for different shapes, but one could do that by building and welding your own aluminum lower pan to the stock upper pan.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 11-16-2010

True.My thought were cast absorbs and disapates heat better that stamped steel.May be flawed thinking on that one.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - Syncro_G - 11-18-2010

(11-15-2010, 07:04 PM)ben2go
(11-15-2010, 06:04 PM)ForcedInduction
(11-15-2010, 03:24 PM)ben2go Someone mentioned the Gwagen oil pan.What's so good about that pan?

Its a single cast piece.

I see how that's better than a stamped steel unit.

The G-wagen pan only fits the N/A engine--not the turbo 617.
The cast design is hard to repair in the field if it is cracked.
It's also a front sump pan - just a slight profile difference to clear the front diff

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 11-18-2010

Ok.Kewl.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-18-2010

Anyone happen to have a good photo of the top front of the cast pan flange from a turbo block?

I've got a reasonably complete point scan of the NA pan, enough to do a recreation of the flange, baffles, and the like. If it's simply a clearance issue on the front, I'll make the top flange so that it will go on either a turbo or NA block so I can future proof.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-18-2010

Well, I'm making an oil pan!

Starting in on the section for the rear main right now.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 11-18-2010

Post pics and let us know how much it holds.I looked at external oil pumps today and passed out from sticker shock.It took a Four LoKo to bring me back around.Nahhh J/K.I stay away from black out in a can.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-18-2010

I'll be trying to keep the stock capacity or maybe add another quart or so.
I'd like to be able to make it universal so it fits either the NA or the turbo blocks, I've got an idea as to what's different between them but need some visual confirmation...

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - garage - 11-18-2010

I belive if you use 617engine mounts on a 616engine, it lets the engine sit somthing like 4or6 inches closer to the firewall, but then the crossmember gets in the way of the oilpan. Right?? So just welding up a new oil pan would be sweet!

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-19-2010

I'm locked-in with the trans location right now, don't feel like moving shifter locations, cutting the tunnel, making new trans mounts, and getting 2 custom driveshafts made.

Main issues I have are the 617 is a whole boatload longer than the V6 it's replacing, so the front of the sump hits frame and swaybar, the starter wants to coexist with the ears on the cast pan, and I've got limited space due to the front differential.

I've been modeling up a new pan based on the original ones dimensions, and the dimensions of the mitsubishi one. So far it looks like I'll be using a mid-sump, possibly with the mitsubishi pan in the mix.

Motor mounts will end up being custom made, using the mitsubishi rubber mounts and just remaking the bracketry that bolts to the block.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - willbhere4u - 11-19-2010

Eliminate the factory sway bar and do a custom one! Then notch the frame cross bar!

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ForcedInduction - 11-20-2010

Looks like I can access the world-EPC on the "free subscription". Big Grin

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 11-20-2010

I know that the left oil pan is found in most 300 cars.What are the other two found in?Would the center one give more clearance on the back side of the pan?Considering that the OM617 is going into another car,a cast pan would not be much of a concern as far as being hit by debris.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 11-20-2010

Those seem to be NA pans, any chance of getting a diagram of the turbo ones?

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ForcedInduction - 11-21-2010

There is only one turbo pan.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 11-21-2010

(11-21-2010, 06:56 AM)ForcedInduction There is only one turbo pan.

That's the one to the left on the diagram posted,and it has a stamped steel pan like pictured through the website.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 12-02-2010

Well, I'm now irrevocably committed to getting an oilpan finished!

This is the relief for the starter, since I rotated it down under the block to match the transmissions starter location.

[Image: IMG_20101202_150802.jpg]

And of all the weird shit that could EVER happen, Pandora came up on my phone at random, right as I was typing this, and started playing "looks like they were right" by Lit.

Maybe it's a message from the Mercedes/Mitsubishi gods? Tongue

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 12-02-2010

[Image: IMG_20101202_170405.jpg]

After the rough-out!

Partway through the finish cycle, stopped to check how it was doing under the little pond of coolant. Looks good so far!

[Image: IMG_20101202_172643.jpg]

I've got ~ another 40 minutes to go...

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 12-02-2010

Curiosity got the better of me, I had to check again!
[Image: IMG_20101202_182431.jpg]

By far, one of my FAVORITE photo's so far!
[Image: IMG_20101202_182439.jpg]

And, profile is finished! WOOOHOOO!

[Image: IMG_20101202_184416.jpg]

The other side pan will be milled out Monday, then it's cutting the angle on the top that mates with the block, and drilling the holes. That needs a fixture I spent the last 3 days making, but didn't document.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 12-02-2010

I can't wait to see this come together.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 12-02-2010

I know, it's awesome just staring at this thing!

The original cast pan is 10 pounds, the pass side rail is 6.

When I put it up against the engine, it makes it look MUCH different, the effect is very hard to describe....

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - Biohazard - 12-02-2010

Effing amazing...
Anxiously awaiting more pics... Smile

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - winmutt - 12-03-2010

(11-20-2010, 10:49 AM)ForcedInduction Looks like I can access the world-EPC on the "free subscription".

I lost my password Sad

Those two pans on the right are from the 300gd right?

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - Captain America - 12-06-2010

I wish I could sit down and do some of this as well.

Pandora is awesome!

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 12-06-2010

[Image: IMG_20101206_154048.jpg]

The 2 halves are contoured, awaiting drilling, upper one is pass side, lower is part of the drivers side.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - ben2go - 12-07-2010

More more

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 01-18-2011

That's the rear main seal retainer/upper pan end plate, 2 operations left and it's finished.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - DeliveryValve - 01-18-2011

Daaaamnn.... You do excellent work! Great job so far!

.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 01-20-2011

Front main seal retainer, after the third to last operation. Tomorrow both retainers get their block mounting holes drilled and counterbored.

A a few quick comparison shots of what's done so far.

RE: Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine? - 300D50 - 01-26-2011

Today was a good day, finished the intermediate plate, made the intermediate block that clears the oil pump shaft, trimmed the longest side rail to final size, and got everything drilled and tapped to hold it all together.

Tomorrow it's drilling and counterboring the mounting holes in the end plates, and setting up to flycut the tops of the side rails to match the rest of the seal surface, then punching the main mounting holes in the rails.

Things are looking up. Smile

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - ben2go - 01-26-2011

Looking good.

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - Biohazard - 01-26-2011

That is some pretty amazing craftsmanship! Highly impressed. How are you planning on sealing the joints? Or did I miss that part?

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - 300D50 - 01-26-2011

I'll take a leaf from Force, and use the Loctite anaerobic sealer on the bolted flanges, and possibly to the block.

Oh, and picture time!

[Image: IMG_20110126_151403.jpg]

Drilling the mounting holes in the drivers side pan rail.

[Image: IMG_20110126_165437.jpg]

Need to do 2 more holes in the cnc, and then some counterbore work on one of the manual machines, and I'll be able to do a test-bolt once the longer bolts come in. Smile

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - 300D50 - 01-28-2011

Machine was on the fritz yesterday, so I probed out the t-stat housing to get the needed dimensions to make a new one that won't interfere with the grand plan to raise up the A/C compressor.

Got the machine going again today, turned out to be a backup battery that was just dead enough to cause issues, but not dead enough to trip the "low battery" alarm...

[Image: IMG_20110128_164001.jpg]

Pass side pan rail in the fixture, after counterboring. Decided to do it in the CNC once I remembered where the 3" long 5/16 endmill was. Big Grin

Need to face .04" off the inside of the rear main seal block in order to get it all to fit the way I want it to, still drill and counterbore the other 2 holes, then deck the bottom surface down nice and even.

Getting there...

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - garage - 01-28-2011

That looks amazing!!
GREAT work, the quality looks fantastic

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - 300D50 - 01-28-2011

Thanks!

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - 300D50 - 02-03-2011

Guess I'll ask again...

Anyone know if the oil pump from a turbo 617 will fit in an NA engine?

I'm going to run into a clearance issue with the NA pump it seems, and from the looks of it the turbo pump's pickup geometry would alleviate the issue.

I got the counterbore work all finished Tuesday, just forgot to snap pics...

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - 300D50 - 02-11-2011

With the sump flange.
[Image: IMG_20110211_165832.jpg]

Without the sump flange.
[Image: IMG_20110211_174729.jpg]

Upper pan, is finished.

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - willbhere4u - 02-11-2011

looks nice I would like to know about the oil pump as well for my om616 turbo project!

RE: Custom oil pan, was "Rear sump, dry sump, or angle the engine?" - mr_manny - 02-12-2011

Found this narrowed om617 oil-pan...looks like they're getting ready to start their first run:

http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/OM617OilPanMercedesDieselModifiedNarrowSump.aspx

300D50,
Yours is in a completely different category...droooool :p

manny