Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front
Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front
(02-24-2011, 01:15 AM)Captain America(02-23-2011, 05:33 PM)winmutt(02-22-2011, 03:50 PM)Captain America Looks like I have all three? styles of pre chamber now... '81, '82, '85 in my hands
Clean them up and lets see some pics for starters!
I still need to get the tools to pull them. The '82 and '85 don't run. Im driving the '81 currently. I will pull all three, compare and come back with pics
(02-24-2011, 01:15 AM)Captain America(02-23-2011, 05:33 PM)winmutt(02-22-2011, 03:50 PM)Captain America Looks like I have all three? styles of pre chamber now... '81, '82, '85 in my hands
Clean them up and lets see some pics for starters!
I still need to get the tools to pull them. The '82 and '85 don't run. Im driving the '81 currently. I will pull all three, compare and come back with pics
Ha! All I need is time and money baby...
I think Homeostasis is the key here and what I think F.I is trying to get at. He just has'nt come right out and said it or maybe he has and no one was listening......man what a long write up....took nearly a couple hours stretched over two days to read this entire thread and there is really no conclusion or answer to any testing....what a rip off.
Could it be that F.I was right and everyone left cause they did not want to admit it. For someone that has so many credentials and access to so many tools and testing equiptment with the area 51 security I am surprised that there is no conclusion to this thread.
so, anyways, whats up?....do you have any updates in your research or did you give up? I hope not , cause that would be a shame...share more, please....don't let him bother you, this is an awesome thread.
I am working on cleaning the prechambers for my cylinder head that was rebuilt and had some of my own research to do which is how I ended up here. I was simply posting something for reference for a discussion I was having at P.P for post #66 and the information regarding the reaming and chamfering tools that Hercules was using. It would be easier for him to find if a post was made to put it to the top. I have some burrs around the holes in the tips that I was wondering what to do with, but with just a stock engine won't be enlarging the holes but rather just want to clean them up. I put one on a wire wheel and think that I may have pushed the burr into the oriface. Can the holes be chamfered for a stock engine?
All I can say is I am thoroughly confused from "thread cleaning"
Mac: I definitely would not want any kind of burr on any orifice in the engine. I would LIGHTLY chamfer the holes. I will play with the 1985 pre chambers, I just always have a lot going on and its on the list.
47dodge is my user name over there
Here are some pics of the most recent modded PCs for my 616 turbo.
One pic shows a stock up-rated PC, Ronnie's old PC he opened up to .125 and the same PC all 5 holes opened up to .136.
Another pic shows the injector seat has been modified per MB with a little more lowering than MB suggested, (1mm), I lowered it down 2.5mm.
One pic tries to show the injector in the PC after the modded seat.
Anyone noted improvements in fuel consumption with a modded pre-chamber...?
(06-22-2012, 04:49 PM)OM616 Here are some pics of the most recent modded PCs for my 616 turbo.OM616,was there improvement with the .136 holes over the .125? Low,mid or top rpm"s ?
One pic shows a stock up-rated PC, Ronnie's old PC he opened up to .125 and the same PC all 5 holes opened up to .136.
Another pic shows the injector seat has been modified per MB with a little more lowering than MB suggested, (1mm), I lowered it down 2.5mm.
One pic tries to show the injector in the PC after the modded seat.
(06-23-2012, 10:44 AM)Alastair E Anyone noted improvements in fuel consumption with a modded pre-chamber...?
(06-22-2012, 04:49 PM)OM616 Here are some pics of the most recent modded PCs for my 616 turbo.OM616,was there improvement with the .136 holes over the .125? Low,mid or top rpm"s ?
One pic shows a stock up-rated PC, Ronnie's old PC he opened up to .125 and the same PC all 5 holes opened up to .136.
Another pic shows the injector seat has been modified per MB with a little more lowering than MB suggested, (1mm), I lowered it down 2.5mm.
One pic tries to show the injector in the PC after the modded seat.
(06-23-2012, 10:44 AM)Alastair E Anyone noted improvements in fuel consumption with a modded pre-chamber...?
(06-24-2012, 12:47 AM)Hercules Mileage improved 2-3 mile per gallon on average.
(06-24-2012, 12:47 AM)Hercules Mileage improved 2-3 mile per gallon on average.
I installed the moded PCs and a late model cam yesterday and had a set back, I was torquing the last injector and herd a POP and the injector turned easy.
I lowered the seat 2 mm lower than MB specked and that is where the upper half threads start so there was very little material left, and when I torqued the injector, the PC lower half broke away from the upper half.
SO... I cleaned up the ones I pulled out, reamed the burn holes to .136 dia, and only opened up the seat dia, did not lower it, ( the 1.5mm was not worth the time and seeing how the PC is made, I feel better with it thicker).
Reinstalled them this morning. It starts easer, had to lower the idel a touch, torque is better, and it takes the fuel better at the top end (much stronger on the high way). EGTs are on average 75 degrees lower under all conditions compared to stock, but keep in mind that I did change the cam too.
My personal recommendation to anyone who needs to be convinced that this is a good thing to do, is not to do it.
not supposed to change two things at once....... Oh well. glad to hear even more improvement
I should figure were your holes are in terms of area compared to the modded 617a ones. I did the three main holes .010 bigger , and left the tiny ones alone. Then add this to my chart.
(06-27-2012, 08:57 PM)ronnie not supposed to change two things at once.......
(06-27-2012, 08:57 PM)ronnie I should figure were your holes are in terms of area compared to the modded 617a ones. I did the three main holes .010 bigger , and left the tiny ones alone. Then add this to my chart.
(06-27-2012, 08:57 PM)ronnie not supposed to change two things at once.......
(06-27-2012, 08:57 PM)ronnie I should figure were your holes are in terms of area compared to the modded 617a ones. I did the three main holes .010 bigger , and left the tiny ones alone. Then add this to my chart.
(07-01-2012, 08:59 AM)Freefuel a Silly question maybe, What material is the prechamber made of? and is there a useful benifit of making them out of inconel so they are less likely to melt? other then making your bank account angry....
(07-01-2012, 08:59 AM)Freefuel a Silly question maybe, What material is the prechamber made of? and is there a useful benifit of making them out of inconel so they are less likely to melt? other then making your bank account angry....
(07-02-2012, 01:45 PM)ConnClark Any before and after dyno charts on these mods?
(07-02-2012, 01:45 PM)ConnClark Any before and after dyno charts on these mods?
Well, Got meself a 3.5mm Carbide drill-bit, Now all I need is a set of spare pre-chambers......!
hello fine people,
OM 606, have u ever considered to look at a OM605 or 606 engines and compare the pre chambers , especially the turbo versions?
to say that i have one of this engines and i assume Mercedes would have done some mods to gain power and reduce smoke (emissions), keeping in mind that this engines has a all lot more power by cylinder not to say the double.
could someone en light me the reason why u guys haven´t drop on of this engines inside your reliques .
i´m so sorry i´m being honest, will have to remove my PC and when i´ve done it certainly i will drop inside some with mods like u are talking about.
regards to u all.
(07-04-2012, 07:03 AM)barrote hello fine people,
OM 606, have u ever considered to look at a OM605 or 606 engines and compare the pre chambers , especially the turbo versions?
to say that i have one of this engines and i assume Mercedes would have done some mods to gain power and reduce smoke (emissions), keeping in mind that this engines has a all lot more power by cylinder not to say the double.
could someone en light me the reason why u guys haven´t drop on of this engines inside your reliques.
i´m so sorry i´m being honest, will have to remove my PC and when i´ve done it certainly i will drop inside some with mods like u are talking about.
regards to u all.
(07-04-2012, 07:03 AM)barrote hello fine people,
OM 606, have u ever considered to look at a OM605 or 606 engines and compare the pre chambers , especially the turbo versions?
to say that i have one of this engines and i assume Mercedes would have done some mods to gain power and reduce smoke (emissions), keeping in mind that this engines has a all lot more power by cylinder not to say the double.
could someone en light me the reason why u guys haven´t drop on of this engines inside your reliques.
i´m so sorry i´m being honest, will have to remove my PC and when i´ve done it certainly i will drop inside some with mods like u are talking about.
regards to u all.
OM606, as i understood even for a stock engine would help to enlarge the holes.
We must never forget that this engines are line production , and are not blue printed. that´s what we want to do.
Do u have any idea of which increase should one do for 60X PC, i will do it and post the results , just want to start from where u guys arrived . i want to save time and money.
by the way have u or know of anyone which has a repair manual for 60X engines? or web site to go to?
regards
FD
(06-22-2012, 04:49 PM)OM616 Here are some pics of the most recent modded PCs for my 616 turbo.
One pic shows a stock up-rated PC, Ronnie's old PC he opened up to .125 and the same PC all 5 holes opened up to .136.
Another pic shows the injector seat has been modified per MB with a little more lowering than MB suggested, (1mm), I lowered it down 2.5mm.
One pic tries to show the injector in the PC after the modded seat.
(06-22-2012, 04:49 PM)OM616 Here are some pics of the most recent modded PCs for my 616 turbo.
One pic shows a stock up-rated PC, Ronnie's old PC he opened up to .125 and the same PC all 5 holes opened up to .136.
Another pic shows the injector seat has been modified per MB with a little more lowering than MB suggested, (1mm), I lowered it down 2.5mm.
One pic tries to show the injector in the PC after the modded seat.
(07-05-2012, 12:28 AM)barrote OM606, as i understood even for a stock engine would help to enlarge the holes.
We must never forget that this engines are line production , and are not blue printed. that´s what we want to do.
Do u have any idea of which increase should one do for 60X PC, i will do it and post the results , just want to start from where u guys arrived . i want to save time and money.
by the way have u or know of anyone which has a repair manual for 60X engines? or web site to go to?
regards
FD
(07-05-2012, 12:28 AM)barrote OM606, as i understood even for a stock engine would help to enlarge the holes.
We must never forget that this engines are line production , and are not blue printed. that´s what we want to do.
Do u have any idea of which increase should one do for 60X PC, i will do it and post the results , just want to start from where u guys arrived . i want to save time and money.
by the way have u or know of anyone which has a repair manual for 60X engines? or web site to go to?
regards
FD
(07-06-2012, 05:34 PM)OM616(07-05-2012, 12:28 AM)barrote OM606, as i understood even for a stock engine would help to enlarge the holes.
We must never forget that this engines are line production , and are not blue printed. that´s what we want to do.
Do u have any idea of which increase should one do for 60X PC, i will do it and post the results , just want to start from where u guys arrived . i want to save time and money.
by the way have u or know of anyone which has a repair manual for 60X engines? or web site to go to?
regards
FD
Yes, a stock engine will benefit, the biggest bonus being you can advance the injection timing.
The 60X PC has more holes than the 61X PC so the additional area adds up quick, it doesn’t take much per hole. My notes say that the 60X PC has 8, 2.5mm holes and a 8mm burn tube.
IMOP increasing all the burn holes to 2.75mm or 3.00mm would be with in reason. I would recommend that you try and contact jeemu (I apologize if I spelled it wrong), he has a project car in that section, and he has built 500+HP 60X engines.
Definitely get a service manual as you will need the torque specks for the PCs and Injectors, you can find them on e-bay some times, not sure if there is a link to a manual on this sight.
Don’t forget to pull the glow plugs out first, BEFORE you remove the PCs.
(07-06-2012, 05:34 PM)OM616(07-05-2012, 12:28 AM)barrote OM606, as i understood even for a stock engine would help to enlarge the holes.
We must never forget that this engines are line production , and are not blue printed. that´s what we want to do.
Do u have any idea of which increase should one do for 60X PC, i will do it and post the results , just want to start from where u guys arrived . i want to save time and money.
by the way have u or know of anyone which has a repair manual for 60X engines? or web site to go to?
regards
FD
Yes, a stock engine will benefit, the biggest bonus being you can advance the injection timing.
The 60X PC has more holes than the 61X PC so the additional area adds up quick, it doesn’t take much per hole. My notes say that the 60X PC has 8, 2.5mm holes and a 8mm burn tube.
IMOP increasing all the burn holes to 2.75mm or 3.00mm would be with in reason. I would recommend that you try and contact jeemu (I apologize if I spelled it wrong), he has a project car in that section, and he has built 500+HP 60X engines.
Definitely get a service manual as you will need the torque specks for the PCs and Injectors, you can find them on e-bay some times, not sure if there is a link to a manual on this sight.
Don’t forget to pull the glow plugs out first, BEFORE you remove the PCs.
quote='Austincarnut' pid='42847' dateline='1341620637']
I get it now, I looked up the changed in the MB parts fisch today. The angled ones you show in your pictures are non-turbo pc's and the round ones are turbo. I have all the original manuals and show all the dimensions but don't see any references to the mod of lowering the injector seat. Where did you find this? I haven't read through the entire set of fisch.
[/quote]
From my thread in the othe forum, Tomnik posted this;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
I found an MB internal article that suggests PC mods in case of idle and partial load smoke.
See the pic below.
Increase the bore from 8 to 14 mm (616 and 617 engines) or from 12 to 14 mm for 615 engine.
As a result use the 617 017 03 60 plate (heat shield) with 10 mm inner diameter.
Further they lowered the position of the nozzle (closer to the ball) by 1 mm from 16.5 to 17.5 mm.
The second part of the page talks about shaking and poor idling quality.
The suggestion here is to change the tolerance of individual fuel quantity from (Bosch) 1 mm3/stroke to < 0.5 mm3/stroke (MB), IP bench setting.
Tom
Attached Thumbnails
(07-06-2012, 11:46 PM)OM616 quote='Austincarnut' pid='42847' dateline='1341620637']
I get it now, I looked up the changed in the MB parts fisch today. The angled ones you show in your pictures are non-turbo pc's and the round ones are turbo. I have all the original manuals and show all the dimensions but don't see any references to the mod of lowering the injector seat. Where did you find this? I haven't read through the entire set of fisch.
(07-06-2012, 11:46 PM)OM616 quote='Austincarnut' pid='42847' dateline='1341620637']
I get it now, I looked up the changed in the MB parts fisch today. The angled ones you show in your pictures are non-turbo pc's and the round ones are turbo. I have all the original manuals and show all the dimensions but don't see any references to the mod of lowering the injector seat. Where did you find this? I haven't read through the entire set of fisch.
I am always genuinely interested in any thread OM616 is posting in
(07-10-2012, 03:08 AM)Captain America I am always genuinely interested in any thread OM616 is posting in
(07-10-2012, 03:08 AM)Captain America I am always genuinely interested in any thread OM616 is posting in
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
What do you all think of using a corner-rounding endmill on the holes to add even-sized fillets?
Mcmaster has a variety, here are two:
p/n 8505A41 has a .125" tip, .1875" shank, and .03125" radius
p/n 8508A45 has a tip of .090" and, .25" shank, and a .075" radius.
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(12-06-2012, 10:54 AM)Simpler=Better What do you all think of using a corner-rounding endmill on the holes to add even-sized fillets?
Mcmaster has a variety, here are two:
p/n 8505A41 has a .125" tip, .1875" shank, and .03125" radius
p/n 8508A45 has a tip of .090" and, .25" shank, and a .075" radius.
(12-06-2012, 10:54 AM)Simpler=Better What do you all think of using a corner-rounding endmill on the holes to add even-sized fillets?
Mcmaster has a variety, here are two:
p/n 8505A41 has a .125" tip, .1875" shank, and .03125" radius
p/n 8508A45 has a tip of .090" and, .25" shank, and a .075" radius.
I was talking with some people doing research for Bosch, and it seems that for common rail applications they want the rough surface finish that EDM leaves on the holes in the nozzle in order to get better atomization. The only trouble is that they need to smooth out the entrance to the hole for better flow while leaving the rough EDM surface intact.
I wonder if having a rough (within reason) surface on the PC outlet holes would be of any benefited to the older prechambers.
(12-06-2012, 11:51 AM)OM616(12-06-2012, 10:54 AM)Simpler=Better What do you all think of using a corner-rounding endmill on the holes to add even-sized fillets?
Mcmaster has a variety, here are two:
p/n 8505A41 has a .125" tip, .1875" shank, and .03125" radius
p/n 8508A45 has a tip of .090" and, .25" shank, and a .075" radius.
That would work if the holes were on a flat surface, but they are on a radius so the cutter would really have to hog in deep to get all the way around.
Just looking at an uprated PC....it might get you 90% there, and then blend in the lower portions by hand, or it might just do it on its own. You will want a carbide one, or at least cobalt, cutting fluid and slow speed. Some times you just have to try something to know for sure.
Personally, I have not tried to taper or radius the inlet yet, so I will add that to the next set I do.
For reference, I am currently running .136 dia burn holes in my 616 turbo and will be going to .145 with a tapered inlet when I put in the Bosio nozzles.
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(12-06-2012, 11:51 AM)OM616(12-06-2012, 10:54 AM)Simpler=Better What do you all think of using a corner-rounding endmill on the holes to add even-sized fillets?
Mcmaster has a variety, here are two:
p/n 8505A41 has a .125" tip, .1875" shank, and .03125" radius
p/n 8508A45 has a tip of .090" and, .25" shank, and a .075" radius.
That would work if the holes were on a flat surface, but they are on a radius so the cutter would really have to hog in deep to get all the way around.
Just looking at an uprated PC....it might get you 90% there, and then blend in the lower portions by hand, or it might just do it on its own. You will want a carbide one, or at least cobalt, cutting fluid and slow speed. Some times you just have to try something to know for sure.
Personally, I have not tried to taper or radius the inlet yet, so I will add that to the next set I do.
For reference, I am currently running .136 dia burn holes in my 616 turbo and will be going to .145 with a tapered inlet when I put in the Bosio nozzles.
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
It looks like rounding the edges will give about 30% more flow.
http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/13-html/13-12.htm
I wonder if it may be better to shape the flow rather than increase it. Instead of 4 round jets of burning diesel, maybe a fan shaped flow would mix better with the oxygen in the cylinder? One could just cut a horizontal slit on each side of the holes to make it fan out. Just a thought.
Great topic by the way!
I may have already asked this, or it might be somewhere earlier in the thread, but how difficult is it to pull pre-chambers?
(12-06-2012, 03:53 PM)Simpler=Better I have a set of 85 PCs, I just need to pull them and play with them (probably won't have time for at least 2 months)
(12-07-2012, 01:50 AM)sassparilla_kid I may have already asked this, or it might be somewhere earlier in the thread, but how difficult is it to pull pre-chambers?
(12-06-2012, 03:53 PM)Simpler=Better I have a set of 85 PCs, I just need to pull them and play with them (probably won't have time for at least 2 months)
(12-07-2012, 01:50 AM)sassparilla_kid I may have already asked this, or it might be somewhere earlier in the thread, but how difficult is it to pull pre-chambers?
$160 worth of tools seems a little ridiculous to me
I've got most of my stuff made for my prechamber puller, now just waiting on the shimano crank puller.
om616,
so you are Increasing the holes to .125 or .136 and opening up the tube to 14mm?
What effect does opening up the tube have, and what tool did you use since the PC are so hard?
Many thanks,
Eric
(12-24-2012, 11:08 AM)MFSuper90 I've got most of my stuff made for my prechamber puller, now just waiting on the shimano crank puller.
om616,
so you are Increasing the holes to .125 or .136 and opening up the tube to 14mm?
What effect does opening up the tube have, and what tool did you use since the PC are so hard?
Many thanks,
Eric
(12-24-2012, 11:08 AM)MFSuper90 I've got most of my stuff made for my prechamber puller, now just waiting on the shimano crank puller.
om616,
so you are Increasing the holes to .125 or .136 and opening up the tube to 14mm?
What effect does opening up the tube have, and what tool did you use since the PC are so hard?
Many thanks,
Eric
How did you go about enlarging the injector seat? And what is the purpose of doing this?
I have an extra head laying around so I think I will try out some modded PC's also. Sounds like a cheap and worthwhile mod
(12-24-2012, 05:42 PM)MFSuper90 How did you go about enlarging the injector seat? And what is the purpose of doing this?
I have an extra head laying around so I think I will try out some modded PC's also. Sounds like a cheap and worthwhile mod
(12-24-2012, 05:42 PM)MFSuper90 How did you go about enlarging the injector seat? And what is the purpose of doing this?
I have an extra head laying around so I think I will try out some modded PC's also. Sounds like a cheap and worthwhile mod
(12-26-2012, 07:30 PM)Turbo OM616
Do you know if Jeemu posted some numbers of the bigger injectors and the change of the nozzle hole for the prechamber?
(12-26-2012, 07:30 PM)Turbo OM616
Do you know if Jeemu posted some numbers of the bigger injectors and the change of the nozzle hole for the prechamber?