Mercedes Mechanical Injection onto BMW
Mercedes Mechanical Injection onto BMW
Hello all,
I've been researching a lot of forums. I was looking for a forum where the Bosch A pump was taken to the extreme. It looks like I've found the place.
A little history for ya. We built a Ram 50 multipurpose truck and powered it with a 5.9 cummins diesel. This is a link to the build thread: http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/...p?t=156450
I chose to re-power the little truck this winter with an all aluminum M-57 BMW diesel. I have been in contact with three European stand alone controller manufacturers and the lowest price less shipping is still at $3400 euro.
I'm going to do my best to mechanically inject this engine. I feel much more comfortable with the mechanical injection as I know very little about programming an ecm.
While researching the best way to install the mechanical injection, I came across the Mercedes OM606/603 engine.
I need to know the best pump to start with to get complete mechanical injection.
The BMW is set up with a single drive chain currently driving the CP4.2 pump. The Mercedes has a double drive chain. I would like to try the single drive chain, however, I do believe the Bosch A pump will require more drive HP and will more than likely break a single chain.
I need a set of the drive sprockets and chain from either an OM603 or 606. I'm hoping someone in the states has a used set lying around that I can use for mock up.
Please let me know what you think.
I think that is a direct injected common rail engine. Pretty sure a mechanical answer is going to be very difficult, but to start, The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection. I would start with a cummins pump or similar inline 6 direct injected engine pump. If you need to use the merc pump not sure what modifications to pump are going to be required.
As for injectors, you'll have to find a mechanical injector that is a close fit for the BMW injector which may be tough as those are pretty long.
Very cool project. Keep us posted.
Fitting inline pump isnt a problem, neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump. Start with finding suitable injectors, once they are in place you have won.
Btw. M57 is not aluminium engine, you must be talking about later M57N2. If I were you, I would fit M51 engine with mechanical VE pump which fits plug and play from predecessor engine.
Quote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
Quote:M57 is not aluminium engine,
Quote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
Quote:M57 is not aluminium engine,
There is already one m57d30 that is running a m-pump from mercedes and special nozzles!
Danish guy...He started with an A-pump but was no sucsess
(12-11-2014, 08:20 PM)BodaciousQuote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Quote:Yep, something I wasn't thinking about. I'll need to find an A pump that works with the higher pop pressures of DI injectors. I don't think I want to go with the p-pump. That pump itself is half the size of the the little BMW. lol I'll have to check with my pump guy and make sure he's taken this into account. Wish I was knowledgeable enough to know whether or not the Merc A pump would just pump up to the higher pop pressures or fail??
Quote:Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
I looked at the M51 pump drive (the predecessor). The VE pump is no stranger to us. We have four 1st gen dodges with hot rodd'd ve pumps. Unfortunately, even with larger injectors, they just don't pump enough fuel to get to the crazy levels at higher RPM's. And again, with more pressure and volume comes more drive resistance. I have no way of measuring what drive force is needed to produce say 600cc's of fuel at 300bar. Therefore, I'd like to play it safe and go ahead with a double drive chain for the pump.
Question; why didn´t you stay with your original 5.9 Cummins engine? Like, there´s no replacement for displacement?!
(12-11-2014, 08:20 PM)BodaciousQuote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Quote:Yep, something I wasn't thinking about. I'll need to find an A pump that works with the higher pop pressures of DI injectors. I don't think I want to go with the p-pump. That pump itself is half the size of the the little BMW. lol I'll have to check with my pump guy and make sure he's taken this into account. Wish I was knowledgeable enough to know whether or not the Merc A pump would just pump up to the higher pop pressures or fail??
Quote:Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
I looked at the M51 pump drive (the predecessor). The VE pump is no stranger to us. We have four 1st gen dodges with hot rodd'd ve pumps. Unfortunately, even with larger injectors, they just don't pump enough fuel to get to the crazy levels at higher RPM's. And again, with more pressure and volume comes more drive resistance. I have no way of measuring what drive force is needed to produce say 600cc's of fuel at 300bar. Therefore, I'd like to play it safe and go ahead with a double drive chain for the pump.
Quote:There is already one m57d30 that is running a m-pump
Quote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Quote:why didn´t you stay with your original 5.9 Cummins engine?
Quote:There is already one m57d30 that is running a m-pump
Quote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Quote:why didn´t you stay with your original 5.9 Cummins engine?
(12-12-2014, 09:32 PM)BodaciousQuote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Could you be a bit more clear. Are you saying a single chain will be enough to run an inline mechanical pump all jacked up??
(12-12-2014, 09:32 PM)BodaciousQuote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Could you be a bit more clear. Are you saying a single chain will be enough to run an inline mechanical pump all jacked up??
Ok, thanks Volker407.
Thought I'd bump this up as I really need the crank and pump gears and was just wanting a set to mic and try out before buying new.
So again, if anyone in the states has an old set of gears/sprockets for the crank and pump, I sure could use 'em. A chain would also be great.
I was going to suggest you buy one from ebay.co.uk and I could ship it to you but they only have new stuff @ c£100, still offer still stands mate
Edit: I just spent 4.3 hours of my work day reading your 28 page build thread and its awesome...
I've been messing around with the MB timing chain and sprockets. The OD of the BMW crank snout is much larger than the MB. If the ID of the MB sprocket is enlarged to fit the BMW crank, it will be to week. If the OD of the BMW crank is machined to accept the MB sprocket, I'm worried the four balancer bolt holes will lose too much integrity. I may be able to take a little off of both and get by.
Just thinking out loud...
(01-07-2015, 09:15 AM)Bodacious I meant to ask in the previous post, what are the springs and associated hardware on the pump sprocket for? I going to guess it is for dampening and I have to think this would make timing the pump a real pain???
(01-07-2015, 09:15 AM)Bodacious I meant to ask in the previous post, what are the springs and associated hardware on the pump sprocket for? I going to guess it is for dampening and I have to think this would make timing the pump a real pain???
OK, thanks Petar.
I received a mock-up A pump yesterday. This pump advances internally so I will be able to machine off most of the sprocket weight.
Unless I am missing something, the best M pump numbers I have found are from diesel meken at 250cc's. To get where I need to be fuel wise, I'll need somewhere between 500-600cc's. I have found A pumps as high as 900cc's in the diesel tractor pulling world.
Getting this pump driven is turning into a PITA, but, I am determined.
(01-08-2015, 09:34 AM)Bodacious OK, thanks Petar.
I received a mock-up A pump yesterday. This pump advances internally so I will be able to machine off most of the sprocket weight.
Unless I am missing something, the best M pump numbers I have found are from diesel meken at 250cc's. To get where I need to be fuel wise, I'll need somewhere between 500-600cc's. I have found A pumps as high as 900cc's in the diesel tractor pulling world.
Getting this pump driven is turning into a PITA, but, I am determined.
(01-08-2015, 09:34 AM)Bodacious OK, thanks Petar.
I received a mock-up A pump yesterday. This pump advances internally so I will be able to machine off most of the sprocket weight.
Unless I am missing something, the best M pump numbers I have found are from diesel meken at 250cc's. To get where I need to be fuel wise, I'll need somewhere between 500-600cc's. I have found A pumps as high as 900cc's in the diesel tractor pulling world.
Getting this pump driven is turning into a PITA, but, I am determined.
Quote: i thought that all inline pumps except the H series have fixed timing.
Quote:600cc's ?? That's a lot of fuel.Big Grin If you manage to burn that much you would end up in 1800 Hp/ 3500 Nm range
Quote: i thought that all inline pumps except the H series have fixed timing.
Quote:600cc's ?? That's a lot of fuel.Big Grin If you manage to burn that much you would end up in 1800 Hp/ 3500 Nm range
250cc of fuel is enough for you. Go Superstroker M-pump from Dieselmeken. Gives full fuel to 8000rpm.
Quote:250cc of fuel is enough for you
Quote:Go Superstroker M-pump from Dieselmeken
Quote:250cc of fuel is enough for you
Quote:Go Superstroker M-pump from Dieselmeken
Hello All, I have been trying to find the thread but I'm not having any luck. I seen on here a month or so ago a fella posted up some pics of some really nice looking aftermarket rods for the Mercedes. The rods in this BMW M57 were made with the cap 'cracking' technology and I'm hearing from the cummins guys that they are a no go with new found power. Would anyone know where I might find more info on the aftermarket rod post I seen here once?
Arrow rods makes some performance 606 rods. Dieselmeken posted a picture a while back on his FB page about it
Interesting project ...These engines are very tuneable and real torquey flying machines when going right. Why don't you bite the bullet and install a stand alone ecu and then tune it. 400bhp is easily attainable with these units....Just a personal thought...
This thread still alive? You could quite easily use a ve pump on the m57 and then go for m47 injectors but you'd need to find 6 as it's a 4 cylinder. This engine uses the vp44 pump so think there's some interchangeability as it later goes to common rail like the m57. You could run a 14mm rotor head on this pump but have to increase the fueling into the pump as well as increase the internal pump pressure and stiffen the spring on the timing advance mechanism.