Mercedes Mechanical Injection onto BMW
Mercedes Mechanical Injection onto BMW
I've been researching a lot of forums. I was looking for a forum where the Bosch A pump was taken to the extreme. It looks like I've found the place.
A little history for ya. We built a Ram 50 multipurpose truck and powered it with a 5.9 cummins diesel. This is a link to the build thread: http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/...p?t=156450
I chose to re-power the little truck this winter with an all aluminum M-57 BMW diesel. I have been in contact with three European stand alone controller manufacturers and the lowest price less shipping is still at $3400 euro.
I'm going to do my best to mechanically inject this engine. I feel much more comfortable with the mechanical injection as I know very little about programming an ecm.
While researching the best way to install the mechanical injection, I came across the Mercedes OM606/603 engine.
I need to know the best pump to start with to get complete mechanical injection.
The BMW is set up with a single drive chain currently driving the CP4.2 pump. The Mercedes has a double drive chain. I would like to try the single drive chain, however, I do believe the Bosch A pump will require more drive HP and will more than likely break a single chain.
I need a set of the drive sprockets and chain from either an OM603 or 606. I'm hoping someone in the states has a used set lying around that I can use for mock up.
Please let me know what you think.
Hello all,
I've been researching a lot of forums. I was looking for a forum where the Bosch A pump was taken to the extreme. It looks like I've found the place.
A little history for ya. We built a Ram 50 multipurpose truck and powered it with a 5.9 cummins diesel. This is a link to the build thread: http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/...p?t=156450
I chose to re-power the little truck this winter with an all aluminum M-57 BMW diesel. I have been in contact with three European stand alone controller manufacturers and the lowest price less shipping is still at $3400 euro.
I'm going to do my best to mechanically inject this engine. I feel much more comfortable with the mechanical injection as I know very little about programming an ecm.
While researching the best way to install the mechanical injection, I came across the Mercedes OM606/603 engine.
I need to know the best pump to start with to get complete mechanical injection.
The BMW is set up with a single drive chain currently driving the CP4.2 pump. The Mercedes has a double drive chain. I would like to try the single drive chain, however, I do believe the Bosch A pump will require more drive HP and will more than likely break a single chain.
I need a set of the drive sprockets and chain from either an OM603 or 606. I'm hoping someone in the states has a used set lying around that I can use for mock up.
Please let me know what you think.
As for injectors, you'll have to find a mechanical injector that is a close fit for the BMW injector which may be tough as those are pretty long.
Very cool project. Keep us posted.
swamijake
12-11-2014, 02:04 PM #2I think that is a direct injected common rail engine. Pretty sure a mechanical answer is going to be very difficult, but to start, The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection. I would start with a cummins pump or similar inline 6 direct injected engine pump. If you need to use the merc pump not sure what modifications to pump are going to be required.
As for injectors, you'll have to find a mechanical injector that is a close fit for the BMW injector which may be tough as those are pretty long.
Very cool project. Keep us posted.
Btw. M57 is not aluminium engine, you must be talking about later M57N2. If I were you, I would fit M51 engine with mechanical VE pump which fits plug and play from predecessor engine.
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Fitting inline pump isnt a problem, neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump. Start with finding suitable injectors, once they are in place you have won.
Btw. M57 is not aluminium engine, you must be talking about later M57N2. If I were you, I would fit M51 engine with mechanical VE pump which fits plug and play from predecessor engine.
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Quote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Yep, something I wasn't thinking about. I'll need to find an A pump that works with the higher pop pressures of DI injectors. I don't think I want to go with the p-pump. That pump itself is half the size of the the little BMW. lol I'll have to check with my pump guy and make sure he's taken this into account. Wish I was knowledgeable enough to know whether or not the Merc A pump would just pump up to the higher pop pressures or fail??
Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
I looked at the M51 pump drive (the predecessor). The VE pump is no stranger to us. We have four 1st gen dodges with hot rodd'd ve pumps. Unfortunately, even with larger injectors, they just don't pump enough fuel to get to the crazy levels at higher RPM's. And again, with more pressure and volume comes more drive resistance. I have no way of measuring what drive force is needed to produce say 600cc's of fuel at 300bar. Therefore, I'd like to play it safe and go ahead with a double drive chain for the pump.
Quote:M57 is not aluminium engine,
Yea they both are 2011 model M57TU2D30. They both have the aluminum block. I bought two of them. We will eventually push the first engine to failure.
Again, if anyone has any of the OM603/606 drive sprockets and chain laying around they wouldn't care to let me use for R&D, I'd greatly appreciate it. I would send them back to ya if you wanted them back.
Thanks for the replies and keep them coming. This is sure way better than learning the hard way. lol
Quote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Yep, something I wasn't thinking about. I'll need to find an A pump that works with the higher pop pressures of DI injectors. I don't think I want to go with the p-pump. That pump itself is half the size of the the little BMW. lol I'll have to check with my pump guy and make sure he's taken this into account. Wish I was knowledgeable enough to know whether or not the Merc A pump would just pump up to the higher pop pressures or fail??
Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
I looked at the M51 pump drive (the predecessor). The VE pump is no stranger to us. We have four 1st gen dodges with hot rodd'd ve pumps. Unfortunately, even with larger injectors, they just don't pump enough fuel to get to the crazy levels at higher RPM's. And again, with more pressure and volume comes more drive resistance. I have no way of measuring what drive force is needed to produce say 600cc's of fuel at 300bar. Therefore, I'd like to play it safe and go ahead with a double drive chain for the pump.
Quote:M57 is not aluminium engine,
Yea they both are 2011 model M57TU2D30. They both have the aluminum block. I bought two of them. We will eventually push the first engine to failure.
Again, if anyone has any of the OM603/606 drive sprockets and chain laying around they wouldn't care to let me use for R&D, I'd greatly appreciate it. I would send them back to ya if you wanted them back.
Thanks for the replies and keep them coming. This is sure way better than learning the hard way. lol
Danish guy...He started with an A-pump but was no sucsess
EDH_Performance
12-12-2014, 03:36 AM #5There is already one m57d30 that is running a m-pump from mercedes and special nozzles!
Danish guy...He started with an A-pump but was no sucsess
(12-11-2014, 08:20 PM)BodaciousQuote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Well, the pump does not care if you connect it to DI or IDI injectors as long as you stay in the same ballpark.
Quote:Yep, something I wasn't thinking about. I'll need to find an A pump that works with the higher pop pressures of DI injectors. I don't think I want to go with the p-pump. That pump itself is half the size of the the little BMW. lol I'll have to check with my pump guy and make sure he's taken this into account. Wish I was knowledgeable enough to know whether or not the Merc A pump would just pump up to the higher pop pressures or fail??
At 300bar pop pressure the A-Pump will work.
Quote:Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
I looked at the M51 pump drive (the predecessor). The VE pump is no stranger to us. We have four 1st gen dodges with hot rodd'd ve pumps. Unfortunately, even with larger injectors, they just don't pump enough fuel to get to the crazy levels at higher RPM's. And again, with more pressure and volume comes more drive resistance. I have no way of measuring what drive force is needed to produce say 600cc's of fuel at 300bar. Therefore, I'd like to play it safe and go ahead with a double drive chain for the pump.
VE-pumps are quite different (only one pump plunger for all engine cylinders) from inline pumps.
For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
All stated above and more can be read in the "Bosch Yellow jackets". It is really worth to buy them!
Gruß
Volker
Question; why didn´t you stay with your original 5.9 Cummins engine? Like, there´s no replacement for displacement?!
(12-11-2014, 08:20 PM)BodaciousQuote:The mercedes pump isn't going to be the right pump as they are all for indirect injection.
Well, the pump does not care if you connect it to DI or IDI injectors as long as you stay in the same ballpark.
Quote:Yep, something I wasn't thinking about. I'll need to find an A pump that works with the higher pop pressures of DI injectors. I don't think I want to go with the p-pump. That pump itself is half the size of the the little BMW. lol I'll have to check with my pump guy and make sure he's taken this into account. Wish I was knowledgeable enough to know whether or not the Merc A pump would just pump up to the higher pop pressures or fail??
At 300bar pop pressure the A-Pump will work.
Quote:Quote:neither the chain.. it will hold for sure as its predecessor had same chain that was driving VE pump
I looked at the M51 pump drive (the predecessor). The VE pump is no stranger to us. We have four 1st gen dodges with hot rodd'd ve pumps. Unfortunately, even with larger injectors, they just don't pump enough fuel to get to the crazy levels at higher RPM's. And again, with more pressure and volume comes more drive resistance. I have no way of measuring what drive force is needed to produce say 600cc's of fuel at 300bar. Therefore, I'd like to play it safe and go ahead with a double drive chain for the pump.
VE-pumps are quite different (only one pump plunger for all engine cylinders) from inline pumps.
For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
All stated above and more can be read in the "Bosch Yellow jackets". It is really worth to buy them!
Gruß
Volker
Quote:There is already one m57d30 that is running a m-pump
Is it the little yellow car?? I seen some youtube videos of it running and found a little info on the car. I'd love to find out more about it.
Quote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Could you be a bit more clear. Are you saying a single chain will be enough to run an inline mechanical pump all jacked up??
Quote:why didn´t you stay with your original 5.9 Cummins engine?
I will never see the power out of the BMW that the cummins has to offer. The cummins engine weighs 922lbs. The BMW weighs 435lbs. I should be quicker with BMW as the cummins was in the 650-700HP level. I guess mostly it's just something different.
I'll do some research on the M pump.
Quote:There is already one m57d30 that is running a m-pump
Is it the little yellow car?? I seen some youtube videos of it running and found a little info on the car. I'd love to find out more about it.
Quote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Could you be a bit more clear. Are you saying a single chain will be enough to run an inline mechanical pump all jacked up??
Quote:why didn´t you stay with your original 5.9 Cummins engine?
I will never see the power out of the BMW that the cummins has to offer. The cummins engine weighs 922lbs. The BMW weighs 435lbs. I should be quicker with BMW as the cummins was in the 650-700HP level. I guess mostly it's just something different.
I'll do some research on the M pump.
(12-12-2014, 09:32 PM)BodaciousQuote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Could you be a bit more clear. Are you saying a single chain will be enough to run an inline mechanical pump all jacked up??
No, I meant it would make sense to have a stronger chain than the stock one.
Gruß
Volker
(12-12-2014, 09:32 PM)BodaciousQuote:For your project your chain should be able to transmit roughly 80-100HP. And that is very far away from a standard VE-pump chain drive.
Could you be a bit more clear. Are you saying a single chain will be enough to run an inline mechanical pump all jacked up??
No, I meant it would make sense to have a stronger chain than the stock one.
Gruß
Volker
Thought I'd bump this up as I really need the crank and pump gears and was just wanting a set to mic and try out before buying new.
So again, if anyone in the states has an old set of gears/sprockets for the crank and pump, I sure could use 'em. A chain would also be great.
Ok, thanks Volker407.
Thought I'd bump this up as I really need the crank and pump gears and was just wanting a set to mic and try out before buying new.
So again, if anyone in the states has an old set of gears/sprockets for the crank and pump, I sure could use 'em. A chain would also be great.
Edit: I just spent 4.3 hours of my work day reading your 28 page build thread and its awesome...
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
I was going to suggest you buy one from ebay.co.uk and I could ship it to you but they only have new stuff @ c£100, still offer still stands mate
Edit: I just spent 4.3 hours of my work day reading your 28 page build thread and its awesome...
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Just thinking out loud...
I've been messing around with the MB timing chain and sprockets. The OD of the BMW crank snout is much larger than the MB. If the ID of the MB sprocket is enlarged to fit the BMW crank, it will be to week. If the OD of the BMW crank is machined to accept the MB sprocket, I'm worried the four balancer bolt holes will lose too much integrity. I may be able to take a little off of both and get by.
Just thinking out loud...
(01-07-2015, 09:15 AM)Bodacious I meant to ask in the previous post, what are the springs and associated hardware on the pump sprocket for? I going to guess it is for dampening and I have to think this would make timing the pump a real pain???
It's a centrifugal timing device, it advances timing with increased RPM.
It is very useful and does not make timing the pump a real pain.
(01-07-2015, 09:15 AM)Bodacious I meant to ask in the previous post, what are the springs and associated hardware on the pump sprocket for? I going to guess it is for dampening and I have to think this would make timing the pump a real pain???
It's a centrifugal timing device, it advances timing with increased RPM.
It is very useful and does not make timing the pump a real pain.
I received a mock-up A pump yesterday. This pump advances internally so I will be able to machine off most of the sprocket weight.
Unless I am missing something, the best M pump numbers I have found are from diesel meken at 250cc's. To get where I need to be fuel wise, I'll need somewhere between 500-600cc's. I have found A pumps as high as 900cc's in the diesel tractor pulling world.
Getting this pump driven is turning into a PITA, but, I am determined.
OK, thanks Petar.
I received a mock-up A pump yesterday. This pump advances internally so I will be able to machine off most of the sprocket weight.
Unless I am missing something, the best M pump numbers I have found are from diesel meken at 250cc's. To get where I need to be fuel wise, I'll need somewhere between 500-600cc's. I have found A pumps as high as 900cc's in the diesel tractor pulling world.
Getting this pump driven is turning into a PITA, but, I am determined.
(01-08-2015, 09:34 AM)Bodacious OK, thanks Petar.
I received a mock-up A pump yesterday. This pump advances internally so I will be able to machine off most of the sprocket weight.
Unless I am missing something, the best M pump numbers I have found are from diesel meken at 250cc's. To get where I need to be fuel wise, I'll need somewhere between 500-600cc's. I have found A pumps as high as 900cc's in the diesel tractor pulling world.
Getting this pump driven is turning into a PITA, but, I am determined.
Interesting, i thought that all inline pumps except the H series have fixed timing. :
600cc's ?? That's a lot of fuel.
If you manage to burn that much you would end up in 1800 Hp/ 3500 Nm range 
and that's on an IDI 606 , probably even more on the direct injected BMW.How much power do you want ?
The A pump IMHO is a better idea since it was designed for direct injection and the M pump wasn't.
(01-08-2015, 09:34 AM)Bodacious OK, thanks Petar.
I received a mock-up A pump yesterday. This pump advances internally so I will be able to machine off most of the sprocket weight.
Unless I am missing something, the best M pump numbers I have found are from diesel meken at 250cc's. To get where I need to be fuel wise, I'll need somewhere between 500-600cc's. I have found A pumps as high as 900cc's in the diesel tractor pulling world.
Getting this pump driven is turning into a PITA, but, I am determined.
Interesting, i thought that all inline pumps except the H series have fixed timing. :
600cc's ?? That's a lot of fuel.
If you manage to burn that much you would end up in 1800 Hp/ 3500 Nm range and that's on an IDI 606 , probably even more on the direct injected BMW.How much power do you want ?
The A pump IMHO is a better idea since it was designed for direct injection and the M pump wasn't.
Quote: i thought that all inline pumps except the H series have fixed timing.
You may be correct. I made an assumption that if the pump wasn't timed externally it would have to advance internally. I know very little about mechanics of injection pumps.
Quote:600cc's ?? That's a lot of fuel.Big Grin If you manage to burn that much you would end up in 1800 Hp/ 3500 Nm range
lol, it never seems to work out that way. I would be happy with 650-700HP if the block will stay together. The biggest deal with the fuel will be to get it injected effectively at 7000RPM's. We were able to turn the cummins to 6000rpm's so I'm hoping the 7000 figure isn't out of reach.
Quote: i thought that all inline pumps except the H series have fixed timing.
You may be correct. I made an assumption that if the pump wasn't timed externally it would have to advance internally. I know very little about mechanics of injection pumps.
Quote:600cc's ?? That's a lot of fuel.Big Grin If you manage to burn that much you would end up in 1800 Hp/ 3500 Nm range
lol, it never seems to work out that way. I would be happy with 650-700HP if the block will stay together. The biggest deal with the fuel will be to get it injected effectively at 7000RPM's. We were able to turn the cummins to 6000rpm's so I'm hoping the 7000 figure isn't out of reach.
F-tune Performance
![[Image: V-band_om606.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/V-band_om606.jpg)
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I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
250cc of fuel is enough for you. Go Superstroker M-pump from Dieselmeken. Gives full fuel to 8000rpm.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Quote:250cc of fuel is enough for you
lol, you are probably right. However, I wouldn't be able to blow ridiculous black clouds of smoke. lol
Quote:Go Superstroker M-pump from Dieselmeken
I looked at his pumps. If my pump guy wasn't willing and familiar with the A-pump, I was going to get him to build me an M. I get a little skittish thinking about spending that kind of money and having it shipped to the US. With my pump guy, I can usually get the problems fixed within a couple days.
Quote:250cc of fuel is enough for you
lol, you are probably right. However, I wouldn't be able to blow ridiculous black clouds of smoke. lol
Quote:Go Superstroker M-pump from Dieselmeken
I looked at his pumps. If my pump guy wasn't willing and familiar with the A-pump, I was going to get him to build me an M. I get a little skittish thinking about spending that kind of money and having it shipped to the US. With my pump guy, I can usually get the problems fixed within a couple days.
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Hello All, I have been trying to find the thread but I'm not having any luck. I seen on here a month or so ago a fella posted up some pics of some really nice looking aftermarket rods for the Mercedes. The rods in this BMW M57 were made with the cap 'cracking' technology and I'm hearing from the cummins guys that they are a no go with new found power. Would anyone know where I might find more info on the aftermarket rod post I seen here once?
Duncansport
01-19-2015, 07:59 AM #23Arrow rods makes some performance 606 rods. Dieselmeken posted a picture a while back on his FB page about it
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
01-25-2015, 12:43 PM #24Interesting project ...These engines are very tuneable and real torquey flying machines when going right. Why don't you bite the bullet and install a stand alone ecu and then tune it. 400bhp is easily attainable with these units....Just a personal thought...
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
whitey1986
11-30-2016, 03:27 PM #25This thread still alive? You could quite easily use a ve pump on the m57 and then go for m47 injectors but you'd need to find 6 as it's a 4 cylinder. This engine uses the vp44 pump so think there's some interchangeability as it later goes to common rail like the m57. You could run a 14mm rotor head on this pump but have to increase the fueling into the pump as well as increase the internal pump pressure and stiffen the spring on the timing advance mechanism.
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