Audi 5cyl rotary pump
Audi 5cyl rotary pump
MOD EDIT: This topic was started by Winmutt
(07-01-2009, 09:28 PM)winmutt I want to find the Audi 5cyl rotary pump. Plenty of upgrades for that line. and from what I have seen it has the same driveinterface.Is the Audi pump for a diesel or do the bosch mechanical F/I pumps work the same way as diesel I/P's do, who has the best pumps so far?
(07-04-2009, 11:09 AM)Motorhead It looks like it is cog belt driven, it would not be a bad install.
Ah, I see now. Runs right off the timing belt. Sure, won't be a bad install as long as it clears the damn block on the back side. Could make a spacer to ensure that it clears the lip on the bottom, as long as it doesn't interfere with the oil cooler lines.. I guess you could give it its own cog and belt and hang it out from the block if it doesn't fit. Simple 2-bearing block, ball bearings, and an oil seal, run the IP oil return straight to the oil pan. Things are pretty tight around the IP on the 617.
GREASY_BEAST
07-04-2009, 02:02 PM #7(07-04-2009, 11:09 AM)Motorhead It looks like it is cog belt driven, it would not be a bad install.
Ah, I see now. Runs right off the timing belt. Sure, won't be a bad install as long as it clears the damn block on the back side. Could make a spacer to ensure that it clears the lip on the bottom, as long as it doesn't interfere with the oil cooler lines.. I guess you could give it its own cog and belt and hang it out from the block if it doesn't fit. Simple 2-bearing block, ball bearings, and an oil seal, run the IP oil return straight to the oil pan. Things are pretty tight around the IP on the 617.
ForcedInduction
07-04-2009, 03:09 PM
#8
All you have to do is put the spline snout on the shaft and bolt it up. I dislike rotary pumps though, I wouldn't do it.
(07-04-2009, 03:09 PM)ForcedInduction I dislike rotary pumps though, I wouldn't do it.
What causes your dislike?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@
Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
07-04-2009, 11:23 PM #9(07-04-2009, 03:09 PM)ForcedInduction I dislike rotary pumps though, I wouldn't do it.
What causes your dislike?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
ForcedInduction
07-05-2009, 12:22 AM
#10
Personal preference. I've always seen inline pumps as the better pumps.
I am just curious about these pumps, and if it would be an option that would allow easier tunability, plus the fact that there is an aftermarket parts availability for them.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
07-05-2009, 12:51 AM #11This a gut feeling, or do you think mechanically that the rotary is a lesser unit? ie: longevity, adjustment, failure issues, etc.
I am just curious about these pumps, and if it would be an option that would allow easier tunability, plus the fact that there is an aftermarket parts availability for them.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
(07-05-2009, 12:51 AM)Telecommbrkr This a gut feeling, or do you think mechanically that the rotary is a lesser unit? ie: longevity, adjustment, failure issues, etc.
A few things. Its lubed by fuel, it has only one plunger to pump all 5 cylinders (plunger float at high RPM?, like wheels driving over washboard) and fuel pressure is critical to its survival (too low and it can die) are what I can think of off the top of my head.
ForcedInduction
07-05-2009, 02:54 AM
#12
(07-05-2009, 12:51 AM)Telecommbrkr This a gut feeling, or do you think mechanically that the rotary is a lesser unit? ie: longevity, adjustment, failure issues, etc.
A few things. Its lubed by fuel, it has only one plunger to pump all 5 cylinders (plunger float at high RPM?, like wheels driving over washboard) and fuel pressure is critical to its survival (too low and it can die) are what I can think of off the top of my head.
(07-05-2009, 08:14 AM)dalek ForcedInduction said he would not do it.
Thats no reason NOT to do it. VO "conversions" are one thing, but when it comes to performance improvement I don't mind being proven wrong.
If that rotary pump turns out to work well, it could prove a reasonable Myna-alternative.
ForcedInduction
07-05-2009, 08:27 AM
#14
(07-05-2009, 08:14 AM)dalek ForcedInduction said he would not do it.
Thats no reason NOT to do it. VO "conversions" are one thing, but when it comes to performance improvement I don't mind being proven wrong.
If that rotary pump turns out to work well, it could prove a reasonable Myna-alternative.
I am not here to make waves; Sois jeune et tais toi
I am just here to lurk and maybe ask a few questions. The last thing I want to do here is to prove anyone wrong. I just thought someone would want to see the Audi pump; if that was seen as stepping on people's heads, I do apologize.
I am not here to make waves; Sois jeune et tais toi
(07-05-2009, 08:49 AM)dalek I just thought someone would want to see the Audi pump; if that was seen as stepping on people's heads...
Not in the least. Please post more detailed pictures if you have them, I would like to see the idea progress rather than die in the middle of a thread. This place is all about learning from each other's adventures.
ForcedInduction
07-05-2009, 08:59 AM
#16
(07-05-2009, 08:49 AM)dalek I just thought someone would want to see the Audi pump; if that was seen as stepping on people's heads...
Not in the least. Please post more detailed pictures if you have them, I would like to see the idea progress rather than die in the middle of a thread. This place is all about learning from each other's adventures.
http://www.partsplaceinc.com/
GREASY_BEAST
07-05-2009, 01:48 PM #18PartsPlace Inc seems to have a lot of VW/ Audi diesel stuff for sale. Their sales dept. phone number is (248) 373 2300. From their website:
http://www.partsplaceinc.com/
Alternately, a Gilmer belt sprocket could be salvaged as a bushing with splines machined into it, so the 617 sprocket would fit. I am not sure of the ID of the 617 sprocket, however.
The audi based pump can be fitted with a 12mm diameter plunger/head from stock bosch parts, and there are custom 14mm diameter plungers available as well. With a suitable cam plate, the pump will yield about 75% more fuel compared to the stock plunger ( I last recall it is 10mm in diameter ) and well over 100%
with the 12mm and 14mm plungers respectively.
Many cam plates are available too, and the stock cam plate is very benign. A higher lift cam plate gives more fuel as well, so a combination of a larger diameter plunger and the cam plate is what you would want.
The 617's timing advance would need to be disabled, or retain it, and keep the inline pump's sprocket timing advance fixed. I would consider trying the latter, which allows you to tune the timing via the VE pump.
Stronger plunger springs can be fitted to keep cam plate float in check for over 6K rpm operation easily. Indeed, no oil feed is needed for the VE type pumps.
The drive is a tapered 17mm OD shaft and a respective woodruff key with the drive pulley held in place with a nut. The flange is a similar 3 bolt style to the inline pump. A machine shop might be able to help spline the driveshaft provided there is material that could be removed.
Alternately, a Gilmer belt sprocket could be salvaged as a bushing with splines machined into it, so the 617 sprocket would fit. I am not sure of the ID of the 617 sprocket, however.
The audi based pump can be fitted with a 12mm diameter plunger/head from stock bosch parts, and there are custom 14mm diameter plungers available as well. With a suitable cam plate, the pump will yield about 75% more fuel compared to the stock plunger ( I last recall it is 10mm in diameter ) and well over 100%
with the 12mm and 14mm plungers respectively.
Many cam plates are available too, and the stock cam plate is very benign. A higher lift cam plate gives more fuel as well, so a combination of a larger diameter plunger and the cam plate is what you would want.
The 617's timing advance would need to be disabled, or retain it, and keep the inline pump's sprocket timing advance fixed. I would consider trying the latter, which allows you to tune the timing via the VE pump.
Stronger plunger springs can be fitted to keep cam plate float in check for over 6K rpm operation easily. Indeed, no oil feed is needed for the VE type pumps.
(07-06-2009, 05:53 PM)Motorhead So there is a timing advance in the 617 pumps, how much and at what rpm?
7.5* advance via the timing device (the sprocket the chain drives and the vacuum pump rides on). At what RPM and under what conditions it advances, I don't know.
ForcedInduction
07-06-2009, 06:03 PM
#22
(07-06-2009, 05:53 PM)Motorhead So there is a timing advance in the 617 pumps, how much and at what rpm?
7.5* advance via the timing device (the sprocket the chain drives and the vacuum pump rides on). At what RPM and under what conditions it advances, I don't know.
What year(s)/model(s) of audi did these pumps come in?
Is the pump Volvo uses for it's 5cyl diesels a rotary as well?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
07-06-2009, 11:17 PM #25Great info 606Power
What year(s)/model(s) of audi did these pumps come in?
Is the pump Volvo uses for it's 5cyl diesels a rotary as well?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
I believe some Duetz 5cyl used a variation of the VE too.
On ebay, there were some new 5cyl Bosch VE pumps from some weird generator application (maybe Duetz, didn't say) The place also had a 4cyl Onan VE pump which I installed in my Samurai, turned out to be a Cummins 4BT 12MM pump brand new for 140 bucks! It had many differences from the automotive version, but I got it sorted out and it's working well on the Samurai - had to turn it way down though - it would smoke truck pull style when I first installed it!
(07-06-2009, 11:17 PM)Telecommbrkr Great info 606Power
What year(s)/model(s) of audi did these pumps come in?
Is the pump Volvo uses for it's 5cyl diesels a rotary as well?
GileadGarage
07-06-2009, 11:42 PM #26I'm pretty sure all the Volvo diesel's used VE rotory pumps, for automotive applications anyway. I know the 6cyl diesel was made by VW, not sure about the 5. I still do not see why one would want to swap over to a VE, but who knows, it'd be interesting to see it happen.
I believe some Duetz 5cyl used a variation of the VE too.
On ebay, there were some new 5cyl Bosch VE pumps from some weird generator application (maybe Duetz, didn't say) The place also had a 4cyl Onan VE pump which I installed in my Samurai, turned out to be a Cummins 4BT 12MM pump brand new for 140 bucks! It had many differences from the automotive version, but I got it sorted out and it's working well on the Samurai - had to turn it way down though - it would smoke truck pull style when I first installed it!
(07-06-2009, 11:17 PM)Telecommbrkr Great info 606Power
What year(s)/model(s) of audi did these pumps come in?
Is the pump Volvo uses for it's 5cyl diesels a rotary as well?
I do not recall the years exactly, but perhaps 83-84. An NA pump would be fine as well, since you can get the turbo/aneroid/LDA top cover, and fit it onto the NA pump.
If you cannot get the aneroid top cover, the pump can still be tuned similarly for power, but will have less off boost smoke control. The aneroid is limited anyway when it comes to increasing the plunger diameter.
VW did use the VE mechanical pumps in their euro 2.5L engines as well, which could be another source for parts/pumps.
Volvo 240s did use the same NA 5 cyl engine as was used in the Audi 5000, but in Europe as far as I know, and was designated the D20.
(07-06-2009, 11:17 PM)Telecommbrkr Great info 606Power
What year(s)/model(s) of audi did these pumps come in?
Is the pump Volvo uses for it's 5cyl diesels a rotary as well?
Sure, anytime.
I do not recall the years exactly, but perhaps 83-84. An NA pump would be fine as well, since you can get the turbo/aneroid/LDA top cover, and fit it onto the NA pump.
If you cannot get the aneroid top cover, the pump can still be tuned similarly for power, but will have less off boost smoke control. The aneroid is limited anyway when it comes to increasing the plunger diameter.
VW did use the VE mechanical pumps in their euro 2.5L engines as well, which could be another source for parts/pumps.
Volvo 240s did use the same NA 5 cyl engine as was used in the Audi 5000, but in Europe as far as I know, and was designated the D20.
(07-06-2009, 11:17 PM)Telecommbrkr Great info 606Power
What year(s)/model(s) of audi did these pumps come in?
Is the pump Volvo uses for it's 5cyl diesels a rotary as well?
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