TWIN CHARGING, PIPEWORK
TWIN CHARGING, PIPEWORK
Hi,
I have started a new project, its a om606 with a m112 eaton supercharger and a ???? turbo.
the question is: what is the best way to pipe the supercharger and turbo?
Do i feed the supercharger with the turbo and bolt the charger to the inlet manifold like our friend EDH Performance or do i feed the turbo with the supercharger.
Both ways seem to work but what way is best for spool up or top end power?
Blacksmokeracing used the first way, but have now changed to the second way, is anyone friendly with them that could ask, as they have the experience with both.
whats your thoughts?
The supercharger makes sense in the twincharger diagram and is simpler with a single bypass (labelled "control valve") that does not have to be synchronized with any other valves. This is not a compound setup, the supercharger merely allows a larger turbo to be used by eliminating boost delay.
Placing the SC downstream of the of the turbo would make a viable compound setup with the added complication of extra valves, parasitic belt load and the poor adiabatic efficiency of a roots supercharger when compared to a compound turbo setup. What benefit is there in using a turbocharger/supercharger over 2 turbos in a compound charging setup?
(06-28-2012, 07:19 AM)raysorenson The supercharger makes sense in the twincharger diagram and is simpler with a single bypass (labelled "control valve") that does not have to be synchronized with any other valves. This is not a compound setup, the supercharger merely allows a larger turbo to be used by eliminating boost delay.
Placing the SC downstream of the of the turbo would make a viable compound setup with the added complication of extra valves, parasitic belt load and the poor adiabatic efficiency of a roots supercharger when compared to a compound turbo setup. What benefit is there in using a turbocharger/supercharger over 2 turbos in a compound charging setup?
(06-28-2012, 07:19 AM)raysorenson The supercharger makes sense in the twincharger diagram and is simpler with a single bypass (labelled "control valve") that does not have to be synchronized with any other valves. This is not a compound setup, the supercharger merely allows a larger turbo to be used by eliminating boost delay.
Placing the SC downstream of the of the turbo would make a viable compound setup with the added complication of extra valves, parasitic belt load and the poor adiabatic efficiency of a roots supercharger when compared to a compound turbo setup. What benefit is there in using a turbocharger/supercharger over 2 turbos in a compound charging setup?
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
If you're looking for instant boost, the second diagram utilizing a SC will give it to you.
If you don't mind a 1,500rpm lag to full boost, then going compound or using large VNT will be much easier.
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(06-28-2012, 04:55 PM)mantahead I was hoping for a quicker spool up than using compound turbos and i can change the speed of the SC with pulley size. Dont want to buy two turbos and find they don't work well together(back pressure issues) and have to buy more. I don't have much experience with compound.
So, is there a lot more pressure on the belt with the SC being fed by the turbo?
(06-28-2012, 04:55 PM)mantahead I was hoping for a quicker spool up than using compound turbos and i can change the speed of the SC with pulley size. Dont want to buy two turbos and find they don't work well together(back pressure issues) and have to buy more. I don't have much experience with compound.
So, is there a lot more pressure on the belt with the SC being fed by the turbo?
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Rudolf did, I believe he ran a thicker headgasket giving him an 18:1 CR
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Personally my setup would be:
Air Filter -> Supercharger_Inlet -> Supercharger_Outlet -> Y-Pipe
One side is the feed from the Supercharger_Outlet.
One side is the by-pass valve with another air filter attached
One side goes to the Turbocharger_Inlet
Turbocharger_Outlet -> Intercooling -> Engine
Easiest hybrid compound setup/should provide decent boost off-idle & doesn't sound like a mess of tubing.
(06-30-2012, 02:28 PM)aaa Is using a valve to route exhaust between compound turbos a good idea? Should make sizing them easier, although you'd probably lose the second stage of air compression.
(06-30-2012, 02:28 PM)aaa Is using a valve to route exhaust between compound turbos a good idea? Should make sizing them easier, although you'd probably lose the second stage of air compression.
If to supercharge and turbo charge do like kozuka says easiest and works best, do NOT charge turbo through supercharger will be massive loss of effience like blacksmoke expirienced them selves. I do recommend to compound turbos insted though due to running diesel engines. Which have low amount hp on low revs which desires alot of pressure to make power (HPxbar at absolute pressure) and a supercharger can maximum produce aboat 1BAR-ish before getting to inefficiente, for example 3000rpm n/a om606 has aboat 70hp, 70x1,5bar absolute is 105hp but with compound turbo you can have 70x3bar absulute =210hp and thats is a huge difference!
Did alittle gimping.
[/quote]yea, thats the diagram i wanted. Cheers.
Its some sort of 3 way valve of a volvo marine engine i need or is there another?
some pictures here include 3 way valve and throttle body on charger intake.
anyone identify what the 3 way valve is off? pictures 88 and 85.
http://teamlmd.1g.fi/kuvat/e30+330Cd/IMG...destart=58
I don't know about the three way valve..
There are basically two options the way I see it.
1. Use a throttle-body/exhaust cutout modify it so that you use a waste gate actuator to open it at a specified psi
2. Use a electronic actuated valve in the same modified manner.
You don't need to vent the supercharger after it's been by-passed the air will flow from the shortest point and the flow from the supercharger will be minimal. Although there might be some heat that could be vented if a 3-way valve was used.
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Actually this makes sense, even if you will have to mess around with 2 air filters. Once the SC is turned off via the clutch you're feeding air mush faster to the turbo. Similar to what the Ford SVT engines run.
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Yeah, mostly people recommend not messing with electromagnetic clutch for a S/C. It works 'OK' in an oem setup (Experience: Eaton M42 + M111, C230k), but with this I want to keep to the proverb 'keep it simple, stupid'. It adds unnecessary complication that might add some HP to the top end but will limit your choices of pulley size for compatible clutches.
Trying to keep the running of the engine, 100% mechanical without adding a whole mess of electronics that could potently ruin your day. For logging/display/722.6/VNT/VGT (yes, I've seen Forced's mechanical adaptation) its fine because there is really not much choice in the matter. But getting rpm signal, using it to manipulate electronic valves & clutches sounds like alot of time and bug testing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid of electronics. 10+ Years In Information Technology seen it all go wrong and badly.