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+--- Thread: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION (/showthread.php?tid=4049)
Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 10-31-2012
I know the FSM clearly states to use ATF in the manual gearbox. In the late 70's and early 80's, there were only a few options out there in the AFT world, e.g., Type "F", et cet. Now, there are a zillion options.
My question is:
What does one use when chaning out the manual transmission gear box oil. That is, what type of ATF ? I have seen where folks posted all kinds of answers from varying types of oil, e.g., W20, W50, et cet. I would suspect those answers are just wrong. So, assuming the FSM is the best source of info, any leads on the best / correct ATF ???
Application: W123 Getrag 717.400 Five Speed.
Also, can one adjust the clutch ?
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - raysorenson - 10-31-2012
The question is, do the synchros use a fiber friction liner or are they just yellow metal? If they're yellow metal, just use anything except GL5 hypoid gear oil. If they have fibrous friction surfaces then I'd prefer substituting mercon/dextronIII/MerconV for typeF. I filled my Getrag 265 with MerconV and it operates properly.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 10-31-2012
I have no idea ?? It is a Getrag 717.400. My guess it is all steel inside.
So, assuming that is correct, Dexron III is OK ????
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - JB3 - 10-31-2012
(10-31-2012, 12:38 PM)Greazzer I have no idea ?? It is a Getrag 717.400. My guess it is all steel inside.
So, assuming that is correct, Dexron III is OK ????
its probably got brass synchro's in it.
I used Mobil 1 synthetic ATF in mine and it was fine.
Ive also used Pennzoil synchromesh fluid too, and it was fine there as well. The older gearboxes are pretty forgiving I think. I think you would be fine with whatever ATF you choose, as long as its got fluid, its gonna be happy.
Ive also used peak brand genera ATF, and or mixed it with whatever ATF fluids I had kicking around, and that seems to be holding up fine in the car I put it in. (GFs father)
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 10-31-2012
Cool ... I wish there was more in the FSM than just "ATF" -- WTH.
BTW -- how touch is it to replace the synchro's ? That is assuming the fluid change does not help out. I agree that new fluid does not replace metal or damage, but it should help some ...
Whine ... whine ... whine
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - raysorenson - 10-31-2012
Yeah, DexIII should be good. MerconV is probably the cheapest synthetic you can get, if you're a synthetic nerd.
The synchros are going to be brass, but some of the brass synchros have a coating or fiber glued to them similar to the way friction material is glued to an auto trans clutch plate or band. The ones with the friction material glued to them can be fluid sensitive. The M5OD in my F150 almost wouldn't go into first with the vehicle stopped and the engine idling. Whatever fluid in it was red, so it was ATF but replacing it with fresh MerconV totally fixed my 1st gear problem after a few heat cycles. I guess the friction modifiers had to soak into the fibers before it was fixed.
(10-31-2012, 02:49 PM)Greazzer Cool ... I wish there was more in the FSM than just "ATF" -- WTH.
BTW -- how touch is it to replace the synchro's ? That is assuming the fluid change does not help out. I agree that new fluid does not replace metal or damage, but it should help some ...
Whine ... whine ... whine
First you've got to diagnose the issue. A sticky slider (or collar or ring or whatever you want to call it) or worn "dogs" on both the slider or the gear can be mistaken for a simple worn synchro. The collar and the gear can add up to $$$ or be unobtainium so it's best to know what's wrong before you go into the trans.
Can you describe the symptom? If it's grinding, it's important to differentiate the difference between a gear that only grinds when shifting fast, or a gear that grinds during normal driving.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 10-31-2012
I got a grind (very very noticable GRIND) shifting from third to second if I am going slightly above a snail's pace. I am better off just to shift into 1st and have the high rev's or hit 3rd and have it near a stall until I can give it some throttle. If I am going pretty slow, then I can shift from 3rd to 2nd without a grind.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Austincarnut - 10-31-2012
I looked up those transmissions in the parts fisch and there are kinds of call outs for parts of all sorts, kits... aftermarket parts available. I noticed all the cool guys out there snagging up all of these have no clue where to find parts or anyone who has been in them. They are VERY simple and most of the tools that worked on the other benz 4 speeds work on these. I'm tempted to start a mail order repair service that specializes in these. What fluid was in it when you got it? Send me your transmission number complete and I can dig up what you need to know. If you have the right numbers you can still order these from the dealer's parts departments.
(10-31-2012, 07:32 PM)Greazzer I got a grind (very very noticable GRIND) shifting from third to second if I am going slightly above a snail's pace. I am better off just to shift into 1st and have the high rev's or hit 3rd and have it near a stall until I can give it some throttle. If I am going pretty slow, then I can shift from 3rd to 2nd without a grind.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 10-31-2012
THANK YOU. It is a Getrag 717.400 but I will get the other numbers off the side.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - raysorenson - 11-01-2012
(10-31-2012, 07:32 PM)Greazzer I got a grind (very very noticable GRIND) shifting from third to second if I am going slightly above a snail's pace. I am better off just to shift into 1st and have the high rev's or hit 3rd and have it near a stall until I can give it some throttle. If I am going pretty slow, then I can shift from 3rd to 2nd without a grind.
Yeah, that sounds like a plain old synchro problem. Be aware that each and every grind wears the dogs on the slider ring and 2nd gear so when you tear it down, have a close look at those. You can live with worn dogs, but nice fresh sharp dogs are good to have in a performance application when you occasionally want to shift very quickly from first to second without any complaints from the trans. A forceful shift from first to second with worn dogs and synchro can result in a violent grind and could seriously burr up the dogs and splines that the slider ring slides on, resulting in the vehicle getting stuck in or out of 1st or 2nd gear or being difficult to shift into our out of 1st and 2nd gear.
Of the few manual transmissions that I've built, the last ones that I played with were out of an Audi S4 and it was the most complicated and heavy one I've ever played with. It's a 6 speed with 2 differentials. That said, it wasn't "hard", it took some time and when it came down to it, there was only one special tool that I absolutely couldn't do without. It was like 30$.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - DeliveryValve - 11-01-2012
Since you have this grinding, I would just use fresh ATF and run it. If it improves, then great. But if it doesn't, then all else the ATF will clean out the trans and no harm created. Next I would try a succession of fluids. First run Mobil 1 5w30 or preferably 10w30. Little thicker than ATF and would help in the stabilize the synchro. If that doesn't work, than try Redline MTL (75w80/85) an even thicker fluid.
.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Austincarnut - 11-01-2012
(10-31-2012, 08:29 PM)Greazzer THANK YOU. It is a Getrag 717.400 but I will get the other numbers off the side.
just pm me the info and whatever questions, I'm kinda curious myself.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Purplecomputer - 11-02-2012
I had no idea you have to change the fluids in the manual trans....
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 11-02-2012
(11-02-2012, 01:41 PM)Purplecomputer I had no idea you have to change the fluids in the manual trans....
LOL. Neither did the PO ... the stuff looked like used engine oil (gas engine of course)....
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - led-panzer - 11-02-2012
Haha. My old jeep that I had once upon a time had a 5 speed in it. When it first started to get really cold outside that winter it got extreemly hard to shift. Long story short, the trans had water and mud in it along with *some* oil. The water was freezing into a slush in the trans lol. It drained out like muddy maple syrup.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - sassparilla_kid - 11-03-2012
So how/where do you change the oil? Is there just a drain and then a filler up top some place?
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - aaa - 11-03-2012
The filler is on the side.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 11-03-2012
There is a 14mm plug on the side and bottom. Make sure you can undo the side plug first (the fill plug). I had to use all the juice in the world to crack that sucker open. You will need a 14mm allen wrench because there is no room at all between the trans and car body. You dont want to drain the trans and then be stuck and not be able to open the fill plug. I have a simple pump deal from Autozone that goes right into the container. I used amost both quarts of the Mobil1.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - winmutt - 11-08-2012
If you are still grinding, 10w30. I use redline in mine. I have used mobil1 as well as the cheapest jug of red....
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - willy - 11-09-2012
I recommand plain
Mobile 1 0W30 (engine oil).
Down to -10°C the Transmission will have
polite gearchanges. If it gets colder - take
a synthetic ATF III.
... and sometimes it can be a good idea
to add 1,5 - 2 ml of Dibutylmaleate.
It prevents the shaft sealing from getting leaky.
(no, it won´t help if there is a severe leak and it`s use is not intended with fibre friction disc or a converter clutch)
And if you collect the old gear oil in an bowl,
take some break cleaner and shoot a little in the oil.
You`ll see glittering (golden) Particels of brass (wear debris of the syncron rings)
Greetz
willy
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 11-09-2012
Yes, Grinding when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd. It is mechanical and not a fluid issue. I just have to watch it.
I have another Getrag 717.400 which I want to swap anyway to double check its in good working order.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - lgreeley83 - 12-29-2012
Lol 2 getrags! Ever finalize you fluids?
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 12-29-2012
YES ! Did a flush with cheapo Autozone ATF, then put in Mobil 1 synthetic. My guardian angel was on my shoulder that day. Autozone had 2 quarts for sale, $4.99 each and I already had about 3-4 opened quarts of the cheap stuff. So, it was a simple $10 mainteanance issue and I got rid of the various bottles of stuff lying around. That stuff came out black like used motor oil and after the flush, pinkish, so I think I got it. Just wish my 2nd gear synchro as simple ... LOL
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Austincarnut - 12-29-2012
Is it a '123260200188'?
(11-01-2012, 08:15 PM)Austincarnut(10-31-2012, 08:29 PM)Greazzer THANK YOU. It is a Getrag 717.400 but I will get the other numbers off the side.
just pm me the info and whatever questions, I'm kinda curious myself.
RE: Manual Transmission Gurus -- QUESTION - Greazzer - 12-29-2012
I will have the check, but it is the REAL deal, Getrag 717.400, the ONLY Five(5) speed that bolts up to the venerable OM617.9XX engine.