Verifying actual glow plug health in an OM606
Verifying actual glow plug health in an OM606
NGK and Bosch appear to be the predominant suppliers out there. I've had great success with NGK spark plugs so maybe they would be great. Peach parts has an excellent "how to" article available for this not so easy job: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/dies...ricks.html
Please pipe in with your experiences
50harleyrider
11-23-2020, 09:25 PM #1Is there any way other than using an actual ammeter to make certain of glow plug functionality? Even if the current is acceptable, does that actually indicate that the glow is acceptable? I'm pretty confident that the glow plugs in my 1999 engine are original and given their age, would it be wise to replace all of them and if so recommendations on the best ones available on the market? Being a long time TDI owner, newer better glow plugs have been introduced over the years requiring updated tunes to properly utilize them. As a satisfied user of Baldurs' DSL1, we do have the capability to vary glow times both pre and after start as well as strategy, I want to take advantage of the latest and best glow plug offerings provided to us. Given the necessary glow requirements of the 606 configuration, this should be an important thread to ponder.
NGK and Bosch appear to be the predominant suppliers out there. I've had great success with NGK spark plugs so maybe they would be great. Peach parts has an excellent "how to" article available for this not so easy job: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/dies...ricks.html
Please pipe in with your experiences
Over the years I have come to the conclusion that the lifespan of a glow plug has a very wide distribution curve. I now only replace burned out ones and have kept track of where they were replaced. As little as 33K miles and two that are still fine at 190K. If they check out electrically, it could be that they are encased in a block of carbon in the pre-chamber. Pull them all (always fully warm up the engine first) and test each on a workbench. Get a reamer and ream the holes and reinstall. Lube the body and threads of the plug with a non-hardening sealant. That way if the bore gets packed with carbon, you have some chance of backing them out without shearing off the collar.
It glows or not. Best are bosch.
Stock glow controller is able to keep them lit utill 3min or 22/28°C.
Anyone that can make use of modern electronics could use a litle better warm up protocol. Like sync glow after start and untill 60°C.
Something like that... i guess.
FD,
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This type of glow plug is like a lamp...
It glows or not. Best are bosch.
Stock glow controller is able to keep them lit utill 3min or 22/28°C.
Anyone that can make use of modern electronics could use a litle better warm up protocol. Like sync glow after start and untill 60°C.
Something like that... i guess.
FD,
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barrote This type of glow plug is like a lamp...On all the engines I use in my conversions I automatically replace the glow plugs Bosch is my glow plug of choice. Especially if you don't know the history of the engine. Good idea if the engine has 100,000 or more miles is to pull the injectors and check and clean the prechambers and replace the glow plugs. It will save you some grief later on.
It glows or not. Best are bosch.
Stock glow controller is able to keep them lit utill 3min or 22/28°C.
Anyone that can make use of modern electronics could use a litle better warm up protocol. Like sync glow after start and untill 60°C.
Something like that... i guess.
I also use a hi temp anti seize on the glowplugs when installing.
barrote This type of glow plug is like a lamp...On all the engines I use in my conversions I automatically replace the glow plugs Bosch is my glow plug of choice. Especially if you don't know the history of the engine. Good idea if the engine has 100,000 or more miles is to pull the injectors and check and clean the prechambers and replace the glow plugs. It will save you some grief later on.
It glows or not. Best are bosch.
Stock glow controller is able to keep them lit utill 3min or 22/28°C.
Anyone that can make use of modern electronics could use a litle better warm up protocol. Like sync glow after start and untill 60°C.
Something like that... i guess.
I also use a hi temp anti seize on the glowplugs when installing.
and as everyone has mentioned ream out the bores before reinstalling with anti-sieze
X Double Dot
11-24-2020, 03:48 PM #5In the past I've tested the glow plug like a spark plug, pull it out, touch the threads to ground, activate the preglow and make sure the tip turns orange in a few seconds or less. pretty simple way to really confirm they're working.
and as everyone has mentioned ream out the bores before reinstalling with anti-sieze
Barrote, they can be heated for up to 3 minutes? My controller only heats them for a few seconds pre start, but I can increase the time as required.
50harleyrider
11-25-2020, 10:15 AM #6Given the latitude of Baldurs' DSL1, what would be the longest pre start glow time the plugs could take without problems? If they're carboned up, I'm hoping a long glow might help but don't want to damage them. My engine has 175k. Runs strong other than hard cold starts per my other thread. I would like to not remove them yet. What's a good resistance value to look for on them?
Barrote, they can be heated for up to 3 minutes? My controller only heats them for a few seconds pre start, but I can increase the time as required.
X Double Dot
11-25-2020, 12:39 PM #7someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe these are the type that increase resistance (IE reduce current) as the temperature at the tip increases. I believe this helps ensure you don't overheat them. I've left mine on for up to 60 seconds post start, but only because i was running into issues with the rack position jumping (due to voltage fluctuations) when i pulsed them. I eventually moved away from that and added a second isolated battery solely to run the GP relay so I could pulse them during warm up.
It does aplly 12v for max of one minute, during 1st 35sec light is on. Until 1 min one can start. After engine starts it continues to heat for max of 3 min . Or 23/28°C .
It also tells u when one or more plugs are defective.
This loops are dependent on before start eng temp.
Pre glow is achieved by reducing voltage to the plugs
Its pretty advanced for the time it was made. Usually people look at it as a relay.... then problems ...
FD,
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Well. Mb controler is much more than a relay,
It does aplly 12v for max of one minute, during 1st 35sec light is on. Until 1 min one can start. After engine starts it continues to heat for max of 3 min . Or 23/28°C .
It also tells u when one or more plugs are defective.
This loops are dependent on before start eng temp.
Pre glow is achieved by reducing voltage to the plugs
Its pretty advanced for the time it was made. Usually people look at it as a relay.... then problems ...
FD,
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A9Z...SXCG&psc=1
50harleyrider
12-04-2020, 11:24 AM #11Are these the right glow plugs for a 606 ?:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A9Z...SXCG&psc=1
50harleyrider Are these the right glow plugs for a 606 ?:I don't believe that is correct. It should be a 80013. I have found AutohausAZ has the best prices quality and service. They have them on sale right now $13.99.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A9Z...SXCG&psc=1
50harleyrider Are these the right glow plugs for a 606 ?:I don't believe that is correct. It should be a 80013. I have found AutohausAZ has the best prices quality and service. They have them on sale right now $13.99.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A9Z...SXCG&psc=1
50harleyrider
12-07-2020, 04:06 PM #13Got a whole set of the 80013 ordered. I've got 3 of 6 showing 0 resistance on my digital voltmeter. geez no wonder it's hard to start. Now for getting the old ones out. My research shows getting the head hot and hitting with Kroil a few times. Can I run it long enough with the intake off so it will be nice and hot when I Kroil it? Or should I just leave it in place with a couple bolts each heat up for rapid removal? Don't want to extract aluminum threads with them.
(12-07-2020, 04:06 PM)50harleyrider Got a whole set of the 80013 ordered. I've got 3 of 6 showing 0 resistance on my digital voltmeter. geez no wonder it's hard to start. Now for getting the old ones out. My research shows getting the head hot and hitting with Kroil a few times. Can I run it long enough with the intake off so it will be nice and hot when I Kroil it? Or should I just leave it in place with a couple bolts each heat up for rapid removal? Don't want to extract aluminum threads with them.keep the head hot, the problem is they break off not so much pulling the threads. If they break off they are very difficult to get out without pulling the head. I have a tool I bought from a company in Italy to the tune of $900.00 that drills the glowplugs out.
(12-07-2020, 04:06 PM)50harleyrider Got a whole set of the 80013 ordered. I've got 3 of 6 showing 0 resistance on my digital voltmeter. geez no wonder it's hard to start. Now for getting the old ones out. My research shows getting the head hot and hitting with Kroil a few times. Can I run it long enough with the intake off so it will be nice and hot when I Kroil it? Or should I just leave it in place with a couple bolts each heat up for rapid removal? Don't want to extract aluminum threads with them.keep the head hot, the problem is they break off not so much pulling the threads. If they break off they are very difficult to get out without pulling the head. I have a tool I bought from a company in Italy to the tune of $900.00 that drills the glowplugs out.
50harleyrider
12-08-2020, 02:50 PM #17Head will be hot as I work through now that I know I can run it with the intake manifold off. I did find Kroil too. Definitely the penetrant of choice of pros. From what I've read, patience and slow, short in and out movements (sounds pornographic unintended lol) and lots of penetrant are the key. It did start this morning fairly quickly with the block heater on for 4 hours. Not a substitute for glow plugs but helps and will get a lot of use during this effort. I'm a little worried about carbon buildup on the bad glow plugs. I won't dig deeper into injector removal until I have to.
50harleyrider
12-09-2020, 10:57 PM #19After a good overnight soaking in Kroil, today I got the intake off, ran it for 15 minutes and tried to move the 3 center easiest to get to plugs and was disappointed even with 35 ft-lbs torque. I bet these are all original plugs and don't want to budge. I plan to try heating the engine up again tomorrow after another overnight soaking. Probably need that old writeup AlanMcR although I don't plan on shearing mine. I'll repeat the procedure over the next couple of days and then remove the injectors and soak again and start the whole process over although without the benefit of heat from running-only the block heater. Given the glow plugs mount almost horizontal, I doubt much Kroil is soaking in.
BTW: Tuck a cotton ball above each glow plug and then soak that with Kroil.
Here is the first one I pulled out. About a third of the plug is turned into drilling chips during the process. To add to the misery, the tip got pushed into the pre-chamber. Got that bit out too with a dot of epoxy on the end of some piano wire.
The exposed nut of the glow plug is quite thin. When you twist, make sure that the torque is exactly down the axis of the glow plug. If #6 is in danger of breaking off, take off the oil filter housing to get direct access. It's just four bolts (but an oily mess). Think of it this way: if the plug breaks off you'll need the filter housing out of the way in order to extract the broken plug.
BTW: Tuck a cotton ball above each glow plug and then soak that with Kroil.
Here is the first one I pulled out. About a third of the plug is turned into drilling chips during the process. To add to the misery, the tip got pushed into the pre-chamber. Got that bit out too with a dot of epoxy on the end of some piano wire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHiv_EdbBds
language is a bit fowl-shame on that chap
50harleyrider
12-10-2020, 07:38 AM #21Not sure what you did from your post. I will try the cotton ball and kroil soaking-should help keep it in direct contact and insure a constant soaking. Here's an interesting induction coil heat source demonstration on our glow plugs I found on utube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHiv_EdbBds
language is a bit fowl-shame on that chap
The plug removed in the video looked nice and clean. The plugs don't stick in the threads usually. What happens is that carbon gets past the seal at the hot end of the plug and packs into the area around the body of the plug, cementing it in. Lubricant might help, but probably not much.
The plug shown in my photo was one of the ones that snapped off and needed to be extracted.
The plug removed in the video looked nice and clean. The plugs don't stick in the threads usually. What happens is that carbon gets past the seal at the hot end of the plug and packs into the area around the body of the plug, cementing it in. Lubricant might help, but probably not much.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=8027
I took the idea from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwQmFHIW...u.be&t=101
This also worked on my OM642, but that one I made sure the engine was hot per AlanMcR's recommendation.
I don't know if I was just lucky, or if it actually had any positive... impact. 12/12 plugs have come out with their tips so far. I have another original plugged 606 to try it on, will update that thread one of these years when I pull them from that one.
Best of luck!
Another possible solution for removal, I have had luck with vibration:
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=8027
I took the idea from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwQmFHIW...u.be&t=101
This also worked on my OM642, but that one I made sure the engine was hot per AlanMcR's recommendation.
I don't know if I was just lucky, or if it actually had any positive... impact. 12/12 plugs have come out with their tips so far. I have another original plugged 606 to try it on, will update that thread one of these years when I pull them from that one.
Best of luck!
The impact method looks promising to help break the carbon packing. I'm gonna try my little 12v 3/8 drive Dewalt. Should give the same effect as an impact driver. I'll set it to only ~25 ft-lbs.
50harleyrider
12-11-2020, 07:55 AM #24#5 came out effortlessly. 2 and 4 cracked loose and now I plan to work them slowly out. 2 and 4 are making slow if any progress. I probably should remove those injectors and try to soften the carbon up before I break them off. Given the simplicity of intake removal, I might just wait until 1,3,6 fail to bother with them. Any advice? ! and 3 are easy to get to. 6 as everyone knows is a different story. AlanMcR, Can you post your extraction method? I assume it requires breaking the plug off first?
The impact method looks promising to help break the carbon packing. I'm gonna try my little 12v 3/8 drive Dewalt. Should give the same effect as an impact driver. I'll set it to only ~25 ft-lbs.
https://sites.google.com/site/alanmcreyn...cedesom606
Most of the plugs that I've used this technique on came out cleanly. Once the plug is out you can peel out the left over coil that was the old plug threads. I have yet to wreck the threads in the head. One plug (shown a few posts earlier) sheared off as it was being pulled and came out in sections. I had to keep drilling, tapping and pulling each section as the previous part was pulled out of the way.
I would not use a slide hammer to do the pulling. You really want some careful control over the process. On the plugs that were really resistant, I've wondered if it would be better to apply a lot of force and then leave it for several hours to see if the goo lets go.
The old pages still exist! Ha!
https://sites.google.com/site/alanmcreyn...cedesom606
Most of the plugs that I've used this technique on came out cleanly. Once the plug is out you can peel out the left over coil that was the old plug threads. I have yet to wreck the threads in the head. One plug (shown a few posts earlier) sheared off as it was being pulled and came out in sections. I had to keep drilling, tapping and pulling each section as the previous part was pulled out of the way.
I would not use a slide hammer to do the pulling. You really want some careful control over the process. On the plugs that were really resistant, I've wondered if it would be better to apply a lot of force and then leave it for several hours to see if the goo lets go.
50harleyrider
12-13-2020, 09:55 AM #26I got the #2 and #4 plugs out this morning. The threads looked good but the bodies sure squeaked out slowly. I will run a tap into the head to make sure the threads are clean and straight. As for reaming out the holes, I'll clean them out with my rifle cleaning kit. I think there are 2 reasons for these hard extractions: 1. bad seating and carbon buildup and 2. given the long nature of this particular design, warpage of the main body over time. I think I'll wait on failure of any of the remaining three still in it before I replace them. Man, that's a long slow process but third time was the charm. Thanks for all your help folks.
FWIW I am a believer that it's a requirement. I replaced all 6 GPs and didn't ream. When i went to check them 2-3k later i barely got a few out. After reaming them on the 2nd install, the 3rd removal 10k later was easy (screwed right out like a bolt).
https://mercedessource.com/store/heavy-d...g-chambers
X Double Dot
12-13-2020, 10:24 AM #27I'd recommend some grease on the ream to help make sure the carbon doesn't all end up in the prechamber. I caved and bought the Mercedes source one, see link below as it's got some pictures of what that tool looks like.
FWIW I am a believer that it's a requirement. I replaced all 6 GPs and didn't ream. When i went to check them 2-3k later i barely got a few out. After reaming them on the 2nd install, the 3rd removal 10k later was easy (screwed right out like a bolt).
https://mercedessource.com/store/heavy-d...g-chambers
(12-13-2020, 09:55 AM)50harleyrider I got the #2 and #4 plugs out this morning. The threads looked good but the bodies sure squeaked out slowly. I will run a tap into the head to make sure the threads are clean and straight. As for reaming out the holes, I'll clean them out with my rifle cleaning kit. I think there are 2 reasons for these hard extractions: 1. bad seating and carbon buildup and 2. given the long nature of this particular design, warpage of the main body over time. I think I'll wait on failure of any of the remaining three still in it before I replace them. Man, that's a long slow process but third time was the charm. Thanks for all your help folks.I would do them all now and get it over with. You already have it a part. You can bet as soon as you put it back together another one will fail. Enclosed is the tool I bought to remove broken glowplugs. It was money well spent. It is impossible to drill these out straight any other way, especially if the engine is in the car.
(12-13-2020, 09:55 AM)50harleyrider I got the #2 and #4 plugs out this morning. The threads looked good but the bodies sure squeaked out slowly. I will run a tap into the head to make sure the threads are clean and straight. As for reaming out the holes, I'll clean them out with my rifle cleaning kit. I think there are 2 reasons for these hard extractions: 1. bad seating and carbon buildup and 2. given the long nature of this particular design, warpage of the main body over time. I think I'll wait on failure of any of the remaining three still in it before I replace them. Man, that's a long slow process but third time was the charm. Thanks for all your help folks.I would do them all now and get it over with. You already have it a part. You can bet as soon as you put it back together another one will fail. Enclosed is the tool I bought to remove broken glowplugs. It was money well spent. It is impossible to drill these out straight any other way, especially if the engine is in the car.
(12-13-2020, 10:29 PM)AlanMcR Um, I've done at least 10 of these by hand. Not a one was drilled crooked. All on the car.It leaves everything as it was, all it does is drill out the glow plug so it can be pulled out. Why are you heli-coiling the threads if it drills straight?
Does this kit leave the head as it was? Or does it leave an over-size hole?
(12-13-2020, 10:29 PM)AlanMcR Um, I've done at least 10 of these by hand. Not a one was drilled crooked. All on the car.It leaves everything as it was, all it does is drill out the glow plug so it can be pulled out. Why are you heli-coiling the threads if it drills straight?
Does this kit leave the head as it was? Or does it leave an over-size hole?
The head was fine, but I had it on the bench to replace the head gasket, helicoil an intake bolt thread, and most of the exhaust studs that some PO had screwed up. Why not do the glow plug threads while I'm at it? The come out super easy now. I suspect that they seal better too. I'm torquing to the usual spec, but the slipperier stainless steel helicoil threads generate a stronger clamping force at the head/plug sealing point.
https://tafmet.pl/english/2524-thickbox_...engine.jpg
50harleyrider
12-18-2020, 08:16 PM #33Can anyone tell me what the pressure tap shown in the photo on this link under the red x (small nipple on valve body) on the left side of the egr valve is for? My egr is deleted so can I ignore it? seems like there was a hose connected to it but when I took the intake off to change glow plugs, I must have removed it but can't find any disconnected hose hanging around.
https://tafmet.pl/english/2524-thickbox_...engine.jpg
This is the vacuum line that drives the EGR. I just cut off the actuator, hollowed out the existing EGR tube, and capped the fitting that goes to the exhaust manifold (at the EGR and at the ex manifold). No issues with fit or compatibility. That little brass fitting on the side of the EGR is your manifold pressure line. I'm guessing that MB put it there (and not somewhere else) for a reason. Of course, that reason could be "cost".
50harleyrider
12-19-2020, 11:12 AM #35Where does that line go from that brass nipple? I don't have any boost this morning although it starts easily now with 6 healthy glow plugs and before I start tracing down MAP sensor wires that I may have knocked loose during manifold removal was wondering if that's my problem? That hose is hiding from me.
Limp mode cuts off boost, regardless of the underlying cause.
On an E300, the pressure sensor is on the inner firewall between the brake booster and the corner of the intake manifold nearest to the driver. On the G300 it sits directly aft of the ABS pump. Three wire connector.
Limp mode cuts off boost, regardless of the underlying cause.
AlanMcR On an E300, the pressure sensor is on the inner firewall between the brake booster and the corner of the intake manifold nearest to the driver. On the G300 it sits directly aft of the ABS pump. Three wire connector.I figured out that line does go to the MAP sensor and she sure won't make boost without it. All's good there now. I'm starting a new thread on the fuel thermostat for all the winter drivers to discuss.
Limp mode cuts off boost, regardless of the underlying cause.
50harleyrider
12-20-2020, 07:21 PM #37AlanMcR On an E300, the pressure sensor is on the inner firewall between the brake booster and the corner of the intake manifold nearest to the driver. On the G300 it sits directly aft of the ABS pump. Three wire connector.I figured out that line does go to the MAP sensor and she sure won't make boost without it. All's good there now. I'm starting a new thread on the fuel thermostat for all the winter drivers to discuss.
Limp mode cuts off boost, regardless of the underlying cause.
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