Sequential turbos on om606?
Sequential turbos on om606?
At the moment I run a Holset H1c with a diy adapter on the stock manifold, it boosts ok depending on engine load. I can see 7 psi from 2500rpm all the way to 2.3 bar at 4000rpm. It used to run a borg warner s300 but that was no boost at all below 3000rpm so put the Holset on instead.
My thoughts are to use a stock turbo to get things spooled up early, then have the Holset or BW take over for the higher boost levels.
Anyone here run such a setup?
Hi all, I'm getting a little bored of the lag with my Holset so giving some thought to a sequential turbo setup.
At the moment I run a Holset H1c with a diy adapter on the stock manifold, it boosts ok depending on engine load. I can see 7 psi from 2500rpm all the way to 2.3 bar at 4000rpm. It used to run a borg warner s300 but that was no boost at all below 3000rpm so put the Holset on instead.
My thoughts are to use a stock turbo to get things spooled up early, then have the Holset or BW take over for the higher boost levels.
Anyone here run such a setup?
![[Image: Mn60xX__9LzmEdVvIr3Ig953w__VAdBqxlz_UZOZ...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Mn60xX__9LzmEdVvIr3Ig953w__VAdBqxlz_UZOZt5hc_8s4-O4PxM_xIFwxGwvPXUGVi1M1wlxUV6YOQE-h8GORbkM-4gLPcLv9pk8ycq-tpsR-hA4kQoH1o15M0jIsLrLS8UkyshAm-VfsZ3ixXGZTZAtFEaFpdLVNfxQRlo1G6fmxjrU-i2tCj_9rLGwdzVVIB7WPjt6SfFZBMBRSDTJvnBydRUe3wSiZu32VE-UJbrYZOXvxFj2B3LtDrtOkMJi7nyVFXWnwr-jH9tyymFeM_1ydU1RLUljBrdXUZXlmRtRMskwJLg5Uhoi1kSkZOqatTacDsItytDV3WVmgV_-xe-fXOmT4KgpG-qR2A7ANhe-KP1yzaRf12Ln78o5-TOHWvjIMeFRbM1APWRQ0g7pHkhnc_NWxlN0gfS-N3trjszR0jm-rVTJgRjOe1w1JtY5Ixida_4RSRgtF1edS6fGTq0RYfYWl4smwWBdiJ77a2B5cUdjALfOAMmW4S2HzYjHdDrM0z1jNv2Li0Oh7NVeAD3S9rhVKi1NHMqY3mFxUuKQOwjsfSYunU99_dVg46ACkh7O3ERjl7yZGK5AMqWTZf9L2TtoGD_rVZIRvr6vm5UICbxg9mzGcWstArbDQvdVry8fcT8l4Qnulvttez_eFzqkNeirSEcSIv2aw-PfHPmEltp3JUc8qQ1g_=w800-h600-no?authuser=0)
Also, an often overlooked part of spool is the intercooler. Most people think that a larger intercooler will hurt turbo spool, but that is not the case unless you also add a bunch more piping. Even with added piping, if the new intercooler reduces the charged air temp significantly, then it will improve spool.
The valves in a sequential turbo setup adds a lot of complexity that seems like more work than its worth. A compound turbo setup can work well, but still requires extra piping and controls. How much fuel are you trying to burn? Upgrading to a more modern turbo would be my first thought for better spool. If you have the fuel to support +350hp, then an EFR 6258 will do the job with 1.7bar from 2500rpm to 5000rpm. 2.3bar from ~3k to ~4k. If you need 2.3bar all the way to 5000rpm then the 6758 would do the job. The super lightweight turbine wheel improves transient response, which would further help spool during driving.
Also, an often overlooked part of spool is the intercooler. Most people think that a larger intercooler will hurt turbo spool, but that is not the case unless you also add a bunch more piping. Even with added piping, if the new intercooler reduces the charged air temp significantly, then it will improve spool.
(09-30-2020, 04:48 PM)vica153 The valves in a sequential turbo setup adds a lot of complexity that seems like more work than its worth. A compound turbo setup can work well, but still requires extra piping and controls. How much fuel are you trying to burn? Upgrading to a more modern turbo would be my first thought for better spool. If you have the fuel to support +350hp, then an EFR 6258 will do the job with 1.7bar from 2500rpm to 5000rpm. 2.3bar from ~3k to ~4k. If you need 2.3bar all the way to 5000rpm then the 6758 would do the job. The super lightweight turbine wheel improves transient response, which would further help spool during driving.Thanks for the reply. I did briefly look at doing a compound setup, but thought that the smallish turbo I would need to use for the response I'm looking for would cause too much of a restriction for the larger one? I've got enough fuel in the pump for 500+hp, it's got 8mm elements fitted (there is a whole other back story behind that).
Also, an often overlooked part of spool is the intercooler. Most people think that a larger intercooler will hurt turbo spool, but that is not the case unless you also add a bunch more piping. Even with added piping, if the new intercooler reduces the charged air temp significantly, then it will improve spool.
If I did go with a more modern single turbo, what would be the best manifold to use? I quite like the idea of the cast iron ones made by Kangeroo team, but anything has to be better the the adapter on the stock 606 manifold I have now.
The intercooler I have is fairly large, it's a universal one but the biggest I could fit in the space behind the bumper. The pipes are 65mm diameter and as direct as they can go. I did however think about moving the charge inlet to the front of the inlet manifold to shorten things further.
(09-30-2020, 04:48 PM)vica153 The valves in a sequential turbo setup adds a lot of complexity that seems like more work than its worth. A compound turbo setup can work well, but still requires extra piping and controls. How much fuel are you trying to burn? Upgrading to a more modern turbo would be my first thought for better spool. If you have the fuel to support +350hp, then an EFR 6258 will do the job with 1.7bar from 2500rpm to 5000rpm. 2.3bar from ~3k to ~4k. If you need 2.3bar all the way to 5000rpm then the 6758 would do the job. The super lightweight turbine wheel improves transient response, which would further help spool during driving.Thanks for the reply. I did briefly look at doing a compound setup, but thought that the smallish turbo I would need to use for the response I'm looking for would cause too much of a restriction for the larger one? I've got enough fuel in the pump for 500+hp, it's got 8mm elements fitted (there is a whole other back story behind that).
Also, an often overlooked part of spool is the intercooler. Most people think that a larger intercooler will hurt turbo spool, but that is not the case unless you also add a bunch more piping. Even with added piping, if the new intercooler reduces the charged air temp significantly, then it will improve spool.
If I did go with a more modern single turbo, what would be the best manifold to use? I quite like the idea of the cast iron ones made by Kangeroo team, but anything has to be better the the adapter on the stock 606 manifold I have now.
The intercooler I have is fairly large, it's a universal one but the biggest I could fit in the space behind the bumper. The pipes are 65mm diameter and as direct as they can go. I did however think about moving the charge inlet to the front of the inlet manifold to shorten things further.
The single big VNT is a more simple option in terms of physical components, but does cost more and requires an electronic controller. A VNT does have the added benefit of being able to act as an exhaust brake, which saves you a good chunk of cash if you need an exhaust brake.
This really got me thinking. A compound setup with a VNT could be really cool. The GTB2260s are relatively common and cheaper. In a compound setup I don't think it would hit 400hp, but I think 350hp would be possible. Less cost in terms of turbos, but does have the added complexity of the compound piping.
...
As far as OM606 exhaust manifolds, the Kangaroos Team manifold is the best option I've seen. Though I haven't really looked very much. Depending on conversion rates ~$625 for a nice cast iron twin scroll T3 manifold is hard to beat. I have a centered outlet manifold design that I'm looking at making, but only because I need the turbo in that location. Even if I got 9 more people to do a group buy, it would still probably cost 1000. Not really a good option unless you really want/need centered outlet.
Sequential can work well. For 400HP I think you'd want a ~35lb/min high pressure turbo and ~65lb/min secondary turbo. So you could put an HE221 in there with your H1C. Just guesstimating I think the HE221 would max out around 350-400hp. The H1C might be a bit small, but you could try it and see. HX35 might be better option. If you can do the fab work yourself, then then this is cheapest way to get a quick spooling 400hp.
The single big VNT is a more simple option in terms of physical components, but does cost more and requires an electronic controller. A VNT does have the added benefit of being able to act as an exhaust brake, which saves you a good chunk of cash if you need an exhaust brake.
This really got me thinking. A compound setup with a VNT could be really cool. The GTB2260s are relatively common and cheaper. In a compound setup I don't think it would hit 400hp, but I think 350hp would be possible. Less cost in terms of turbos, but does have the added complexity of the compound piping.
...
As far as OM606 exhaust manifolds, the Kangaroos Team manifold is the best option I've seen. Though I haven't really looked very much. Depending on conversion rates ~$625 for a nice cast iron twin scroll T3 manifold is hard to beat. I have a centered outlet manifold design that I'm looking at making, but only because I need the turbo in that location. Even if I got 9 more people to do a group buy, it would still probably cost 1000. Not really a good option unless you really want/need centered outlet.
(10-02-2020, 04:52 PM)vica153 Sequential can work well. For 400HP I think you'd want a ~35lb/min high pressure turbo and ~65lb/min secondary turbo. So you could put an HE221 in there with your H1C. Just guesstimating I think the HE221 would max out around 350-400hp. The H1C might be a bit small, but you could try it and see. HX35 might be better option. If you can do the fab work yourself, then then this is cheapest way to get a quick spooling 400hp.Thanks, now that does sound interesting!
The single big VNT is a more simple option in terms of physical components, but does cost more and requires an electronic controller. A VNT does have the added benefit of being able to act as an exhaust brake, which saves you a good chunk of cash if you need an exhaust brake.
This really got me thinking. A compound setup with a VNT could be really cool. The GTB2260s are relatively common and cheaper. In a compound setup I don't think it would hit 400hp, but I think 350hp would be possible. Less cost in terms of turbos, but does have the added complexity of the compound piping.
...
As far as OM606 exhaust manifolds, the Kangaroos Team manifold is the best option I've seen. Though I haven't really looked very much. Depending on conversion rates ~$625 for a nice cast iron twin scroll T3 manifold is hard to beat. I have a centered outlet manifold design that I'm looking at making, but only because I need the turbo in that location. Even if I got 9 more people to do a group buy, it would still probably cost 1000. Not really a good option unless you really want/need centered outlet.
I do have a garret gt2259s going spare, do you think I could use one of them with the h1c in a compound setup? I'm told they are fairly similar to the He221w, and they both come factory fitted to the iveco trucks we have here so easy to get hold of.
The H1c I have now has the exhaust housing from a hx35 fitted, it's a no 10 if I remember correctly. I should still have the no 12 it came with somewhere to if I need it. I also have the Borg warner s300 if I need to go bigger. Hopefully I can get to a quick spool 400hp, I'd be happy with that.
I think I'll get hold of a Kangaroo manifold first, I'll feel better having a one piece casting than a lot of welded joints.
(10-02-2020, 04:52 PM)vica153 Sequential can work well. For 400HP I think you'd want a ~35lb/min high pressure turbo and ~65lb/min secondary turbo. So you could put an HE221 in there with your H1C. Just guesstimating I think the HE221 would max out around 350-400hp. The H1C might be a bit small, but you could try it and see. HX35 might be better option. If you can do the fab work yourself, then then this is cheapest way to get a quick spooling 400hp.Thanks, now that does sound interesting!
The single big VNT is a more simple option in terms of physical components, but does cost more and requires an electronic controller. A VNT does have the added benefit of being able to act as an exhaust brake, which saves you a good chunk of cash if you need an exhaust brake.
This really got me thinking. A compound setup with a VNT could be really cool. The GTB2260s are relatively common and cheaper. In a compound setup I don't think it would hit 400hp, but I think 350hp would be possible. Less cost in terms of turbos, but does have the added complexity of the compound piping.
...
As far as OM606 exhaust manifolds, the Kangaroos Team manifold is the best option I've seen. Though I haven't really looked very much. Depending on conversion rates ~$625 for a nice cast iron twin scroll T3 manifold is hard to beat. I have a centered outlet manifold design that I'm looking at making, but only because I need the turbo in that location. Even if I got 9 more people to do a group buy, it would still probably cost 1000. Not really a good option unless you really want/need centered outlet.
I do have a garret gt2259s going spare, do you think I could use one of them with the h1c in a compound setup? I'm told they are fairly similar to the He221w, and they both come factory fitted to the iveco trucks we have here so easy to get hold of.
The H1c I have now has the exhaust housing from a hx35 fitted, it's a no 10 if I remember correctly. I should still have the no 12 it came with somewhere to if I need it. I also have the Borg warner s300 if I need to go bigger. Hopefully I can get to a quick spool 400hp, I'd be happy with that.
I think I'll get hold of a Kangaroo manifold first, I'll feel better having a one piece casting than a lot of welded joints.
I'm not sure about the exact 2259 you have, but the maps I found online show it just shy of 30lb/min. I think that would limit it to 300hp..MAYBE 350hp. If the flanges on the turbos are common to larger turbos you might try then you could always try what you have and move up later.
2259 / H1C would work for ~300-350HP I think. Though I definitely don't claim to be an expert on compound setups. From what I've read, I think its safe to say a compound setup can hit at least 10hp per lb/min on the high pressure compressor. Though 11-12hp per lb/min wouldn't surprise me. For diesel engines, 8hp per lb/min is the standard rough guess for max HP, so 11-12hp per lb/min from a compound setup seems reasonable to me if everything is working together efficiently.
I'm not sure about the exact 2259 you have, but the maps I found online show it just shy of 30lb/min. I think that would limit it to 300hp..MAYBE 350hp. If the flanges on the turbos are common to larger turbos you might try then you could always try what you have and move up later.
(10-04-2020, 01:03 AM)vica153 2259 / H1C would work for ~300-350HP I think. Though I definitely don't claim to be an expert on compound setups. From what I've read, I think its safe to say a compound setup can hit at least 10hp per lb/min on the high pressure compressor. Though 11-12hp per lb/min wouldn't surprise me. For diesel engines, 8hp per lb/min is the standard rough guess for max HP, so 11-12hp per lb/min from a compound setup seems reasonable to me if everything is working together efficiently.
I'm not sure about the exact 2259 you have, but the maps I found online show it just shy of 30lb/min. I think that would limit it to 300hp..MAYBE 350hp. If the flanges on the turbos are common to larger turbos you might try then you could always try what you have and move up later.
Would fitting a bypass valve around the 2259 for higher boost levels help at all?
I think the one i have is the same as this: https://www.turbosbytm.com/gt2259
If I found a He221w I guess I want the 7cm housing for better flow?
(10-04-2020, 01:03 AM)vica153 2259 / H1C would work for ~300-350HP I think. Though I definitely don't claim to be an expert on compound setups. From what I've read, I think its safe to say a compound setup can hit at least 10hp per lb/min on the high pressure compressor. Though 11-12hp per lb/min wouldn't surprise me. For diesel engines, 8hp per lb/min is the standard rough guess for max HP, so 11-12hp per lb/min from a compound setup seems reasonable to me if everything is working together efficiently.
I'm not sure about the exact 2259 you have, but the maps I found online show it just shy of 30lb/min. I think that would limit it to 300hp..MAYBE 350hp. If the flanges on the turbos are common to larger turbos you might try then you could always try what you have and move up later.
Would fitting a bypass valve around the 2259 for higher boost levels help at all?
I think the one i have is the same as this: https://www.turbosbytm.com/gt2259
If I found a He221w I guess I want the 7cm housing for better flow?
You could add in valves to bypass the small turbo. Then it would be a sequential setup. The problem is getting a valve than can efficiently flow a large amount of you want to truly bypass the small compressor. A large wastegate might do the job if you're only bypassing a small portion of flow, but ideally a sequential setup would have something like a throttle body valve that would open a large unrestrictive flow around the small turbo.
Either way, you would want a wastegate on the exhaust manifold also just to make sure the turbine&wastegate on the small turbine weren't too restrictive. A sequential setup could be really cool if plumbed efficiently, but getting there is a bit more complex than a compound setup.
I dont know that much about the HE221w. I only used it as an example since you were using a holset turbo and from what I've found its about 35lb/min. If you dont have a separate wastegate on the manifold, the you'd a bigger housing to avoid restricting flow. If you have a separate EWG along witht the IWG, then you might want the smaller housing to help spool.
You could add in valves to bypass the small turbo. Then it would be a sequential setup. The problem is getting a valve than can efficiently flow a large amount of you want to truly bypass the small compressor. A large wastegate might do the job if you're only bypassing a small portion of flow, but ideally a sequential setup would have something like a throttle body valve that would open a large unrestrictive flow around the small turbo.
Either way, you would want a wastegate on the exhaust manifold also just to make sure the turbine&wastegate on the small turbine weren't too restrictive. A sequential setup could be really cool if plumbed efficiently, but getting there is a bit more complex than a compound setup.
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