Heat problem solution OM60X
Heat problem solution OM60X
This solution supposed to reduce the heat with 15% on rear cylinders on Superturbodiesels. We will try it out. Thing is to put cold water thru a bypass direct to cyl 5 & 6 without passing cyl 1-´4. You need 2 adaptors M16x1,5-M22 & M18x1,5-M22 and a connecting hose, hydralic hose or similar
dieselmeken
08-04-2015, 08:47 AM #1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7GaCE7_...ture=share
This solution supposed to reduce the heat with 15% on rear cylinders on Superturbodiesels. We will try it out. Thing is to put cold water thru a bypass direct to cyl 5 & 6 without passing cyl 1-´4. You need 2 adaptors M16x1,5-M22 & M18x1,5-M22 and a connecting hose, hydralic hose or similar
This is a very similar solution that M-B had for the cylinder heads running hot at cylinder 5&6 on US 280SL's with the M130.
Duncansport
08-04-2015, 08:57 AM #2Nice work on this
This is a very similar solution that M-B had for the cylinder heads running hot at cylinder 5&6 on US 280SL's with the M130.
thanks for the sharing.
FD,
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despite i´ve been using the exit for the heater(rear of the engine) directly to the radiator, never thought that heating on the rear cylinders would be a problem. but now i know what is killing my head gaskets
thanks for the sharing.
FD,
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whipplem104
08-06-2015, 07:48 PM #5I have a question. Why is coolant going to flow through this? The block is an open coolant jacket and I would think that there is going to be pretty equal pressure at the inlet and outlet of this setup. If the coolant is being overheated getting to the back of the engine that seems to be a flow problem caused by an inadequate water pump. Seems like it would be better to add an electric water pump to increase flow or overdrive the existing water pump.
At the same time, I would be careful about using a hose/fitting with too big of a diameter. It would be no good if it just started serving as a coolant bypass for the front of the motor. Personally I would be afraid to use anything larger than a 4AN line.
However, this is all just speculation, and we would not know the real world effects until enough people try this mod and observe the effects.
Irony.cc
In theory it is not a great system, but in practice it more than likely will deliver at least some colder coolant to the rear of the engine. So while it may not be 100% efficient, even if it only cools the rear two cylinders by a few degrees, it would still be better than nothing. The cooling system does not rely purely on pressure, and the pressure is definitely not equal everywhere in the system.
At the same time, I would be careful about using a hose/fitting with too big of a diameter. It would be no good if it just started serving as a coolant bypass for the front of the motor. Personally I would be afraid to use anything larger than a 4AN line.
However, this is all just speculation, and we would not know the real world effects until enough people try this mod and observe the effects.
Irony.cc
An British Leyland Austin A-series engine has a very serious issue with this.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Usually somewhere within the deck interface block deck / head gasket / head deck, there are coolant passages with restrictions going in size from smallest nearest water pump to biggest furthest from water pump to promote flow equally up from the block to the head to stop the coolant short looping directly from the water pump, up into the head and back out to the radiator bypassing the rear cylinders, this mod would appear to address that sorry one massive sentence..
An British Leyland Austin A-series engine has a very serious issue with this.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
whipplem104
08-20-2015, 02:52 PM #8So I have been thinking and looking at all of this. Couple of things to point out. 1 is that the n/a om606 and the turbo vs have different size water pump pulleys. And by a fair margin. Turbo is 5.5" and the n/a is 6.25". One would guess that it was either due to different max rev and cavitation or to increase flow for the turbo motor. I think that simply adding an external electric water pump to the stock system would increase flow if that is the problem. This would address the issue of the water becoming heat soaked before it makes it to the rear of the engine. And it would also address high rpm cavitation issues with a stock pump. Increased water pump flow for high performance engines is normal fare. A davies craig or meizere pump would definitely do the job. Although it would be tight quarters to fit in the car.
Some go "dry deck", I don't know how beneficial that is, though since the water needs to pass any cylinder and in theory cylinder 1 will then run hottest. But giving the coolant flow a little "push" to the rear end of the engine by creating a "pressure drop" (bypass) might be a good idea. Flow is lazy and always tries to go the shortest route. This bypass makes it a little happier to flow to the end of the engine.
I think a bypass from the hot side (exhaust side) of the cylinder head would be even better, but that's just my train of thought based on some early 50's machinery
What do I know, I'm just a panel beater-dirt eater :p
DiseaselWeasel
08-20-2015, 03:06 PM #9Rover did this with theyr transverse A-series engines; they had a bypass coming from the cylinder head entering the bottom radiator hose. The australians modified this by runing it directly into the top radiator tank. This aids circulation at the end of the head (where it's important) whilst maintaining equal heat distribution throughout the engine. Also the water way in the head next to the pump are blocked by brass plugs to cut off pre-mature back-flow to the radiator. To sort of aid a "cross flow" through the cylinder head.
Some go "dry deck", I don't know how beneficial that is, though since the water needs to pass any cylinder and in theory cylinder 1 will then run hottest. But giving the coolant flow a little "push" to the rear end of the engine by creating a "pressure drop" (bypass) might be a good idea. Flow is lazy and always tries to go the shortest route. This bypass makes it a little happier to flow to the end of the engine.
I think a bypass from the hot side (exhaust side) of the cylinder head would be even better, but that's just my train of thought based on some early 50's machinery What do I know, I'm just a panel beater-dirt eater :p
whipplem104
08-20-2015, 04:23 PM #10That is just it. If it is a path of least resistance issue. Then increasing flow rate of the cooling system will equalize pressure in the block as the restrictions are in the headgasket/cyl. head. If you increase flow then coolant will be forced further down the block. You can put pipes anywhere you want but if coolant wants to just go through cylinder 1 and out the head then it will.
I've never had more than a 10°C difference from front to rear. With stock engines, though... But first of all, I'd determine if there actually IS a problem before finding a solution for a problem
DiseaselWeasel
08-20-2015, 04:35 PM #11Either that, or you pull the plug and remove resistance by adding a bypass. Many ways lead to rome... Or - maybe in the very first place, take some measurements I've never had more than a 10°C difference from front to rear. With stock engines, though... But first of all, I'd determine if there actually IS a problem before finding a solution for a problem
(08-20-2015, 04:35 PM)DiseaselWeasel ... But first of all, I'd determine if there actually IS a problem before finding a solution for a problem
Agreed. This thread is the first that I have heard of a cooling system problem.
The OM606 is known to have valve recession on cylinders 5 & 6, but that is more due to the EGR gas delivery being uneven. When I did overheat an OM606 (no water), it stretched the two head bolts between 1 & 2. The head itself didn't permanently warp.
(08-20-2015, 04:35 PM)DiseaselWeasel ... But first of all, I'd determine if there actually IS a problem before finding a solution for a problem
Agreed. This thread is the first that I have heard of a cooling system problem.
The OM606 is known to have valve recession on cylinders 5 & 6, but that is more due to the EGR gas delivery being uneven. When I did overheat an OM606 (no water), it stretched the two head bolts between 1 & 2. The head itself didn't permanently warp.
my engine being a 605 builds a bit heat when abused, but i dont have fan, to solve this problem i bipassed the heater exit directry to the radiator inlet, it did improve. at the moment i suspect the head gasket is leaking, a small leak thats why is heating up a bit. next time i will try this mod as well, it may work out or not , i´ll see and post about it.
regards
FD,
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they have heat issues when modified, and even when u run it hot a couple of times the head gasket always leaks between 5and 6 or 4and 5 always in the rear cylinders.
my engine being a 605 builds a bit heat when abused, but i dont have fan, to solve this problem i bipassed the heater exit directry to the radiator inlet, it did improve. at the moment i suspect the head gasket is leaking, a small leak thats why is heating up a bit. next time i will try this mod as well, it may work out or not , i´ll see and post about it.
regards
FD,
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How is it being determined that this is a problem?
whipplem104
08-21-2015, 08:11 AM #14I was assuming that someone had found a problem using temperature sensors of some kind. If it is just that a head gasket starts leaking in a certain location that could be from peak cylinder pressures being to high.
How is it being determined that this is a problem?
i wonder how are this modded engines being under 3.5 bar boost absolute pressure, 150cc injection quantities , 6000 RPM , resist those high cylinder peak pressures?
i know there´s a special HG.
FD,
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i was assuming some members had tunned their engines til they found heat problems , in this case they can know about what we talking about , but unfortunatly it seems stock engines can suffer from high peak cylinder pressures.
i wonder how are this modded engines being under 3.5 bar boost absolute pressure, 150cc injection quantities , 6000 RPM , resist those high cylinder peak pressures?
i know there´s a special HG.
FD,
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(08-21-2015, 08:11 AM)whipplem104 I was assuming that someone had found a problem using temperature sensors of some kind. If it is just that a head gasket starts leaking in a certain location that could be from peak cylinder pressures being to high.
How is it being determined that this is a problem?
I have the standard sensor in the rear of the block feeding to the OE gauge in the cluster and also an extra sensor at the very front of the head feeding to an extra gauge.
Now...when the engine's pushed hard the rear sensor shows overheat starting but the front gauge remains 'normal'. I've always wondered why this is. Not that I'm running an uprated engine, but could this mod help?
This is a 606.962 with manual pump and 6mm elements, standard turbo with pressure wastegate instead of vacuum.
.
(08-21-2015, 08:11 AM)whipplem104 I was assuming that someone had found a problem using temperature sensors of some kind. If it is just that a head gasket starts leaking in a certain location that could be from peak cylinder pressures being to high.
How is it being determined that this is a problem?
I have the standard sensor in the rear of the block feeding to the OE gauge in the cluster and also an extra sensor at the very front of the head feeding to an extra gauge.
Now...when the engine's pushed hard the rear sensor shows overheat starting but the front gauge remains 'normal'. I've always wondered why this is. Not that I'm running an uprated engine, but could this mod help?
This is a 606.962 with manual pump and 6mm elements, standard turbo with pressure wastegate instead of vacuum.
.
(08-21-2015, 03:33 PM)barrote i was assuming some members had tunned their engines til they found heat problems , in this case they can know about what we talking about , but unfortunatly it seems stock engines can suffer from high peak cylinder pressures.
i wonder how are this modded engines being under 3.5 bar boost absolute pressure, 150cc injection quantities , 6000 RPM , resist those high cylinder peak pressures?
i know there´s a special HG.
Well, the extra boost also helps the cooling. Air is a great heat isolator to the cilinder walls and the air itself has the cooling effect. That's the main reason for me why i'm overboosting. Keeps the EGT etc. low.
Also stock 606 turbo's have high back pressures. Not very good for cooling.
I did the mod dieselmeken showed btw. And i'm thinking of removing the thermostat. But I don't know the consequences of running a engine too cold.
(08-21-2015, 03:33 PM)barrote i was assuming some members had tunned their engines til they found heat problems , in this case they can know about what we talking about , but unfortunatly it seems stock engines can suffer from high peak cylinder pressures.
i wonder how are this modded engines being under 3.5 bar boost absolute pressure, 150cc injection quantities , 6000 RPM , resist those high cylinder peak pressures?
i know there´s a special HG.
Well, the extra boost also helps the cooling. Air is a great heat isolator to the cilinder walls and the air itself has the cooling effect. That's the main reason for me why i'm overboosting. Keeps the EGT etc. low.
Also stock 606 turbo's have high back pressures. Not very good for cooling.
I did the mod dieselmeken showed btw. And i'm thinking of removing the thermostat. But I don't know the consequences of running a engine too cold.
(10-10-2015, 03:29 AM)Tito(08-21-2015, 03:33 PM)barrote i was assuming some members had tunned their engines til they found heat problems , in this case they can know about what we talking about , but unfortunatly it seems stock engines can suffer from high peak cylinder pressures.
i wonder how are this modded engines being under 3.5 bar boost absolute pressure, 150cc injection quantities , 6000 RPM , resist those high cylinder peak pressures?
i know there´s a special HG.
Well, the extra boost also helps the cooling. Air is a great heat isolator to the cilinder walls and the air itself has the cooling effect. That's the main reason for me why i'm overboosting. Keeps the EGT etc. low.
Also stock 606 turbo's have high back pressures. Not very good for cooling.
I did the mod dieselmeken showed btw. And i'm thinking of removing the thermostat. But I don't know the consequences of running a engine too cold.
I have a diff mod than the one discussed here, and i still have heat issues....
My mod is basically 2 direct conection from rear of head exits to radiator, like this the heat generated at the rear travels faster into the radiator, it helped but is not enough in my engine.
I agree that the mod discussed here, along with mine and the 135mm pulley will solve the heating problema in my installation.
removing the thermostat wont help cooling when engine is really hot, if the thermostat is in good condition.
is always better to have the thermostat so that u can regulate warmth. abusing the engine cold will in long therm resuld in premature wear.
Few days ago a friend told me about oil cooler !!!, he claim does not have heating problems after he quited the normal oil/coolant exchanger and add a big oil cooler instead.
Of course i´m running 700ºc exaust when the heating becomes a problema.... before heating was never a problema.
FD,
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(10-10-2015, 03:29 AM)Tito(08-21-2015, 03:33 PM)barrote i was assuming some members had tunned their engines til they found heat problems , in this case they can know about what we talking about , but unfortunatly it seems stock engines can suffer from high peak cylinder pressures.
i wonder how are this modded engines being under 3.5 bar boost absolute pressure, 150cc injection quantities , 6000 RPM , resist those high cylinder peak pressures?
i know there´s a special HG.
Well, the extra boost also helps the cooling. Air is a great heat isolator to the cilinder walls and the air itself has the cooling effect. That's the main reason for me why i'm overboosting. Keeps the EGT etc. low.
Also stock 606 turbo's have high back pressures. Not very good for cooling.
I did the mod dieselmeken showed btw. And i'm thinking of removing the thermostat. But I don't know the consequences of running a engine too cold.
I have a diff mod than the one discussed here, and i still have heat issues....
My mod is basically 2 direct conection from rear of head exits to radiator, like this the heat generated at the rear travels faster into the radiator, it helped but is not enough in my engine.
I agree that the mod discussed here, along with mine and the 135mm pulley will solve the heating problema in my installation.
removing the thermostat wont help cooling when engine is really hot, if the thermostat is in good condition.
is always better to have the thermostat so that u can regulate warmth. abusing the engine cold will in long therm resuld in premature wear.
Few days ago a friend told me about oil cooler !!!, he claim does not have heating problems after he quited the normal oil/coolant exchanger and add a big oil cooler instead.
Of course i´m running 700ºc exaust when the heating becomes a problema.... before heating was never a problema.
FD,
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atypicalguy
05-13-2020, 10:26 PM #19Ok so does anyone k iw for sure that this bypass works? From measuring temperatures or similar?
(05-13-2020, 10:26 PM)atypicalguy Ok so does anyone k iw for sure that this bypass works? From measuring temperatures or similar?
Unsure. But I thought I would comment on the quote above yours.
Do not remove the thermostat in a Mercedes. The thermostat doesn't just open the return from the radiator. It also closes an internal path within the head at the same time. Without the thermostat in place you get about 1/2 the flow to the radiator as one does with a functioning thermostat.
(05-13-2020, 10:26 PM)atypicalguy Ok so does anyone k iw for sure that this bypass works? From measuring temperatures or similar?
Unsure. But I thought I would comment on the quote above yours.
Do not remove the thermostat in a Mercedes. The thermostat doesn't just open the return from the radiator. It also closes an internal path within the head at the same time. Without the thermostat in place you get about 1/2 the flow to the radiator as one does with a functioning thermostat.
atypicalguy Ok so does anyone k iw for sure that this bypass works? From measuring temperatures or similar?I do this bypass on all my 4x4 conversions and have never had any heating problems. I have had air in the lines and heating problems if I don't run the hoses as per OM 606 E-300 car.
The outlet on the back of the head needs to go thru the heater core bottom and out the top if you have a heater. If not it just goes directly to the thermostat housing. The water overflow tank goes to the bottom of the radiator tank.
The bypass between # 5 and #6 eliminates the dead flow in the rear of the engine and keeps the water moving.
atypicalguy Ok so does anyone k iw for sure that this bypass works? From measuring temperatures or similar?I do this bypass on all my 4x4 conversions and have never had any heating problems. I have had air in the lines and heating problems if I don't run the hoses as per OM 606 E-300 car.
The outlet on the back of the head needs to go thru the heater core bottom and out the top if you have a heater. If not it just goes directly to the thermostat housing. The water overflow tank goes to the bottom of the radiator tank.
The bypass between # 5 and #6 eliminates the dead flow in the rear of the engine and keeps the water moving.
if not does your expansion tank just Tee into between the top radiator core outlet and the thermostat housing?
any diagrams?
thanks
CutWeldDrive
05-17-2020, 05:50 PM #22zeeman do you fit the Circulation pump from the E-300 car.
if not does your expansion tank just Tee into between the top radiator core outlet and the thermostat housing?
any diagrams?
thanks
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