10+MM, M Pump build
10+MM, M Pump build
I am looking for feed back on the idea/concept of a custom built Mega M pump for the 605 and 606 superturbo applications that want something more then 8.5mm elements. It should be noted, (as there will surely be someone who will say X amount of fuel can not be burnt, yada, yada) that the larger elements provide more then just the potential for more fuel to the injectors. Someone who is currently running an 8mm pump could upgrade to a custom 10mm pump and either inject the same mount of fuel in less time, or inject more fuel in the same about of time.
Depending on how crazy one wants there are 12mm to 16mm P pump elements that are available. The idea is to use the M pump cam and make a custom pump housing that will have the M pump block interface and oiling supply. My governor of choice would be a RW governor from an MW pump because I am very familiar with it and I think it is more tuneable then the RSV governor. Plus the RW governor rack location is correct for the elements I would be using.
It is the goal that this pump would be a direct replacement aside of maybe the throttle linkage. It would use the stock M pump injector lines.
The next step would be to make some hi volume nozzles that will provide a large volume of fuel at a fast rate while maintaining a burnable mist pattern as apposed to a stream of fuel.
No harm if there is no interest, I just thought i would ask.
Now that we are in lock down and the project that i am finishing up for someone else is on hold because part of it is at the water jet place which closed shortly after I dropped off the billet, I am starting to work my way back to the pump projects that I have been wanting to do.
I am looking for feed back on the idea/concept of a custom built Mega M pump for the 605 and 606 superturbo applications that want something more then 8.5mm elements. It should be noted, (as there will surely be someone who will say X amount of fuel can not be burnt, yada, yada) that the larger elements provide more then just the potential for more fuel to the injectors. Someone who is currently running an 8mm pump could upgrade to a custom 10mm pump and either inject the same mount of fuel in less time, or inject more fuel in the same about of time.
Depending on how crazy one wants there are 12mm to 16mm P pump elements that are available. The idea is to use the M pump cam and make a custom pump housing that will have the M pump block interface and oiling supply. My governor of choice would be a RW governor from an MW pump because I am very familiar with it and I think it is more tuneable then the RSV governor. Plus the RW governor rack location is correct for the elements I would be using.
It is the goal that this pump would be a direct replacement aside of maybe the throttle linkage. It would use the stock M pump injector lines.
The next step would be to make some hi volume nozzles that will provide a large volume of fuel at a fast rate while maintaining a burnable mist pattern as apposed to a stream of fuel.
No harm if there is no interest, I just thought i would ask.
TwoMuchBoost
04-12-2020, 05:04 PM #2I like the idea and am somewhat local. If you need a guinea pig just holler out. Finally got the 606 swapped into the 300SDL and she’s rowdy with the 7.5mm elements... but same fuel in less time is always good. Then again, my gas pedal is already quite “hair trigger” already. Can’t imagine the idle lope or throttle sensitivity with some elements that size... probably sounds like a cammed out pulling tractor? Can a good idle even be achieved with that much fuel delivery on tap?
(04-12-2020, 05:04 PM)TwoMuchBoost I like the idea and am somewhat local. If you need a guinea pig just holler out. Finally got the 606 swapped into the 300SDL and she’s rowdy with the 7.5mm elements... but same fuel in less time is always good. Then again, my gas pedal is already quite “hair trigger” already. Can’t imagine the idle lope or throttle sensitivity with some elements that size... probably sounds like a cammed out pulling tractor? Can a good idle even be achieved with that much fuel delivery on tap?
From what I have experienced with the 10mm MW pumps I have built, I believe it is possible. I have found a major key is the nozzles. Fast injection rates tend to make smaller nozzles steam because it pushes the pintle to far up. A higher flow ( at the same pintle lift) nozzle will allow a faster injection with a good spray pattern.
Regarding throttle sensitivity, one of the things I really like about the RW governor is the ALDA changes the ratio between the throttle lever and the rack. Also at the extreams, the end of injection groove can be reground to change the delivery curve.
There is also some tuning in regards to delivery volume that can be done with the delivery valves.
I currently have the high speed governor eliminated in my MW pump that I drive every day. Only the Idle governor is still functional. It drives like a gas engine lol.. no more fading as it winds up. ( I know it is no longer rev limited, "dont try this at home" yada yada)..
I would need a core M pump to rob the cam out of and reverse engineer the interface. I have partnered with a company that has a CNC mill which I am learning to run, (I am a 30 year manual machinist), so I can get fancy with the block :)
(04-12-2020, 05:04 PM)TwoMuchBoost I like the idea and am somewhat local. If you need a guinea pig just holler out. Finally got the 606 swapped into the 300SDL and she’s rowdy with the 7.5mm elements... but same fuel in less time is always good. Then again, my gas pedal is already quite “hair trigger” already. Can’t imagine the idle lope or throttle sensitivity with some elements that size... probably sounds like a cammed out pulling tractor? Can a good idle even be achieved with that much fuel delivery on tap?
From what I have experienced with the 10mm MW pumps I have built, I believe it is possible. I have found a major key is the nozzles. Fast injection rates tend to make smaller nozzles steam because it pushes the pintle to far up. A higher flow ( at the same pintle lift) nozzle will allow a faster injection with a good spray pattern.
Regarding throttle sensitivity, one of the things I really like about the RW governor is the ALDA changes the ratio between the throttle lever and the rack. Also at the extreams, the end of injection groove can be reground to change the delivery curve.
There is also some tuning in regards to delivery volume that can be done with the delivery valves.
I currently have the high speed governor eliminated in my MW pump that I drive every day. Only the Idle governor is still functional. It drives like a gas engine lol.. no more fading as it winds up. ( I know it is no longer rev limited, "dont try this at home" yada yada)..
I would need a core M pump to rob the cam out of and reverse engineer the interface. I have partnered with a company that has a CNC mill which I am learning to run, (I am a 30 year manual machinist), so I can get fancy with the block :)
I don’t would choose a M-Pump for this, I would choose a big MW pump like the one from a OM366. In this case, you just have to create a adapter to mount the pump on the OM606.
I have done this one Time.
You are correct, I does not goes to the high of diesel, just the injection time.
But a OM366 Pump on a 606 does not run so smooth and good as an M-Pump with 9mm Elements.
I have build a OM606 Pump with 9mm elements, the next step is to grind a camshaft.
Best reguards from Germany
Steffen
German Diesel
04-13-2020, 08:37 AM #4Hi,
I don’t would choose a M-Pump for this, I would choose a big MW pump like the one from a OM366. In this case, you just have to create a adapter to mount the pump on the OM606.
I have done this one Time.
You are correct, I does not goes to the high of diesel, just the injection time.
But a OM366 Pump on a 606 does not run so smooth and good as an M-Pump with 9mm Elements.
I have build a OM606 Pump with 9mm elements, the next step is to grind a camshaft.
Best reguards from Germany
Steffen
(04-13-2020, 08:37 AM)German Diesel Hi,
I don’t would choose a M-Pump for this.
This would be a custom billet hybrid pump using parts from several different pumps. I would be willing to wager that the M pump could be modified to accept larger custom made elements, but then custom elements have to me made. My thinking is to use off the shelf parts and make a billet housing.
Regarding how smooth the engine would run, that is where the magic comes in. I have had good success with 10mm MW pumps on OM617a engines so I am not too concerned that I would not be able to find the right combination to make it run nicely.
Early on I looked at cam grinding and decided that it is just way to much trouble. It pushes everything else beyond its limits. By using larger off the shelf elements, everything can be kept with in its designed limits. That being said, the lifters and cam will see a lot more load, but the I would not be asking the lifters to travel beyond their normal travel.
Many different ways to arrive at the same point.
(04-13-2020, 08:37 AM)German Diesel Hi,
I don’t would choose a M-Pump for this.
This would be a custom billet hybrid pump using parts from several different pumps. I would be willing to wager that the M pump could be modified to accept larger custom made elements, but then custom elements have to me made. My thinking is to use off the shelf parts and make a billet housing.
Regarding how smooth the engine would run, that is where the magic comes in. I have had good success with 10mm MW pumps on OM617a engines so I am not too concerned that I would not be able to find the right combination to make it run nicely.
Early on I looked at cam grinding and decided that it is just way to much trouble. It pushes everything else beyond its limits. By using larger off the shelf elements, everything can be kept with in its designed limits. That being said, the lifters and cam will see a lot more load, but the I would not be asking the lifters to travel beyond their normal travel.
Many different ways to arrive at the same point.
Question is whats the point of doing that?
If u wish a big pump for a 6 cyl MB u can get nice with any inline pump of the same firing order, rotary included.
If its just a question of having a diff set up, well i aplaud.
Unfortunatly u're too far as i have dozens of cams around...
Anyway element size... is critical to run a smooth engine, 7.5mm seems to be the right size.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Hi,
Question is whats the point of doing that?
If u wish a big pump for a 6 cyl MB u can get nice with any inline pump of the same firing order, rotary included.
If its just a question of having a diff set up, well i aplaud.
Unfortunatly u're too far as i have dozens of cams around...
Anyway element size... is critical to run a smooth engine, 7.5mm seems to be the right size.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(04-19-2020, 04:08 AM)barrote Hi,
Question is whats the point of doing that?
If u wish a big pump for a 6 cyl MB u can get nice with any inline pump of the same firing order, rotary included.
If its just a question of having a diff set up, well i aplaud.
Unfortunatly u're too far as i have dozens of cams around...
Anyway element size... is critical to run a smooth engine, 7.5mm seems to be the right size.
I was thinking of doing something different then the VE to make a monster pump that could make monster power. Will a 606 block handle 1000hp? lol This would be something for bragging rights for sure.
Regarding smooth running, although that is not the primary goal, I have found a relation between element size, nozzle size, Delivery Valve displacement. and prechamber flow rate. It would take quite a bit of testing to find the right combination to allow the best overall performance and driveability. (however something like this would really be for drifting or other full power application.
This is just something that I have been thinking about. Although I am not a 60X guy (so this pump would not do me any good) I do want larger nozzles for my 617a -10mm MW set ups, so I should probably focus on that.
Always interested in your thoughts!
(04-19-2020, 04:08 AM)barrote Hi,
Question is whats the point of doing that?
If u wish a big pump for a 6 cyl MB u can get nice with any inline pump of the same firing order, rotary included.
If its just a question of having a diff set up, well i aplaud.
Unfortunatly u're too far as i have dozens of cams around...
Anyway element size... is critical to run a smooth engine, 7.5mm seems to be the right size.
I was thinking of doing something different then the VE to make a monster pump that could make monster power. Will a 606 block handle 1000hp? lol This would be something for bragging rights for sure.
Regarding smooth running, although that is not the primary goal, I have found a relation between element size, nozzle size, Delivery Valve displacement. and prechamber flow rate. It would take quite a bit of testing to find the right combination to allow the best overall performance and driveability. (however something like this would really be for drifting or other full power application.
This is just something that I have been thinking about. Although I am not a 60X guy (so this pump would not do me any good) I do want larger nozzles for my 617a -10mm MW set ups, so I should probably focus on that.
Always interested in your thoughts!
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