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Common rail diesel discussion thread
baldur Offline
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#1
Common rail diesel discussion thread
It has been requested that I open a thread to discuss and share information about common rail diesel injection.
I am in the process of developing a controller to run solenoid controlled injectors, and plan to create a different power supply for piezoelectric injectors.
The difference there being that the solenoid injectors require high current and low voltage, although a moderate voltage (80 volts nominally) from a charged up capacitor is used to boost them during the opening phase to get a faster current rise. To keep them open requires only on the order of 6 volts.
Piezoelectric injectors on the other hand need a couple hundred volts to open, with high initial current and this voltage must be maintained to keep them open, at negligible current. Then in order to close them they require an inverse current as the piezoelectric element has internal capacitance that must be discharged.

Common rail is unique to most other injection control systems in that you have control over injection quantity and injection duration independently. Only other control system that offers this is hydraulically actuated unit injectors. Other solenoid controlled systems such as cam actuated unit injectors and injection pumps while allowing exact control of injection start and end do not have any way to control the rate of delivery  during the injection.

One advantage offered by direct electronic injection control that is not possible with rack controlled injection pumps is the ability to have multiple injection events during the combustion cycle. This feature is not unique to common rail but is also possible with some solenoid valve controlled unit injectors and some solenoid valve controlled injection pumps.
The primary advantage of this is being able to use pre-injection to heat up the air prior to starting the main combustion event, as this accelerates ignition of the fuel injected for the main combustion event and thus reduces diesel knock which is caused by a too abrupt ignition of the fuel (too much fuel is introduced before it is able to ignite in the chamber)

I will add more information to this post later. Feel free to ask any questions.
Baldur Gislason

01-13-2019, 01:50 PM
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firen456 Offline
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#2
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
I wanna know something more about the EDC15/16 ecus from OM613/648. It seems that EIS, ESL, TCU and DAS and some ABS/ESP stuff is needed. The EIS will send a crypted can message to the ecu to start the engine. So we'll have to keep the EIS because it's to complicated to reengineer the crypted message. It seems there are two options to deal with the rest. First: Deleting all the DTCs in the ecu regarding ELS, DAS and TCU like wheelspeed and missing can bus devices and modify the ecu to start without them (gearlever in N or P for example). This seems to be the harder way. The easier solution might be to emulate all the can meassages the ecu wants do see via a can controller. Maybe something arduino based. There will of course have to be deleted some DTCs in the ecu because we don't want to run ELS, factory TCU, DAS and ESP. We must have a W210/211 car to reingeneer the can bus. To start the engine the gearleaver must be in N or P position. What other signals will the engine need to start? Maybe there can be found something in the WIS. Searching for some opinions or a little help from people who run these ecus in older cars.
01-14-2019, 02:24 AM
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barrote Offline
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#3
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
As of me, i'm dealing with changing mechanichal properties of bosch CRD system to operate under higher pressure and higher flow and reliable for the tunning fans.
Electronically, as discussed a stand alone ECU without the vehicle electronics seem a lot viable. One feature must be present , the box must be switched in same socket as a EDC16 or have a kind of adapter. For the users without edc16 cars(loom) does not really matter which conector to work on.
Injection opening resolution is of atmost importance weather the coil or the driver , need to be in line with needs.
As there is no point using a diff nozzle if opening is not within 100's of milisecond. As example.
FD,
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01-14-2019, 03:50 AM
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baldur Offline
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#4
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
I'm getting there. Running some tests on the prototype and if they all pass I will run an engine on it.
[Image: moRJf7m.jpg]
[Image: p33DxSd.jpg]
Baldur Gislason

01-29-2019, 12:45 PM
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madmog Offline
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#5
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(01-14-2019, 02:24 AM)firen456 Wrote: I wanna know something more about the EDC15/16 ecus from OM613/648. It seems that EIS, ESL, TCU and DAS and some ABS/ESP stuff is needed. The EIS will send a crypted can message to the ecu to start the engine. So we'll have to keep the EIS because it's to complicated to reengineer the crypted message. It seems there are two options to deal with the rest. First: Deleting all the DTCs in the ecu regarding ELS, DAS and TCU like wheelspeed and missing can bus devices and modify the ecu to start without them (gearlever in N or P for example). This seems to be the harder way. The easier solution might be to emulate all the can meassages the ecu wants do see via a can controller. Maybe something arduino based. There will of course have to be deleted some DTCs in the ecu because we don't want to run ELS, factory TCU, DAS and ESP. We must have a W210/211 car to reingeneer the can bus. To start the engine the gearleaver must be in N or P position. What other signals will the engine need to start? Maybe there can be found something in the WIS. Searching for some opinions or a little help from people who run these ecus in older cars.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wondering, presumably on manual vehicles, the ECU doesn't look for some of these signals. Then is it easier to either start with an ECU from a manual car or perhaps the ECUs can be flipped from auto to manual?
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2019, 05:15 PM by madmog.)
01-29-2019, 05:12 PM
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AlanMcR Offline
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#6
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
The coding can be moved from one ECU to another with the STAR system. Ultimately it is just setting an clearing bits in the EEPROM, which can easily be copied.
01-30-2019, 12:04 AM
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firen456 Offline
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#7
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
There's no 613/648 manual car. Copying the eeprom is clear to me. But u will still need the matching key and eis for it.
01-30-2019, 02:56 AM
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barrote Offline
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#8
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
I guess baldur is doing this just cause of that...
To run without CAN permissions , otherwise what sense does it make.
I belive TCU's , IMMO, etc, will be available as add on later if user wishes, if not please Baldur do it to run engine on minimal hardware...
FD,
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01-30-2019, 05:17 AM
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baldur Offline
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#9
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(01-30-2019, 05:17 AM)barrote Wrote: I guess baldur is doing this just cause of that...
To run without CAN permissions , otherwise what sense does it make.
I belive TCU's , IMMO, etc,  will be available as add on later if user wishes, if not please Baldur do it to run engine on minimal hardware...

Yes that's the plan. I will also have a complete wiring harness available for engine swaps if I manage to source all of the connectors.
Baldur Gislason

01-30-2019, 06:25 AM
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starynovy Offline
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#10
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
Very interesting. I keep fingers crossed for you man. Dont forget to make it for piezos since they flow heaps lot more than magnets. Big Grin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
02-02-2019, 02:05 PM
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Turbo Offline
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#11
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(02-02-2019, 02:05 PM)starynovy Wrote: Very interesting. I keep fingers crossed for you man. Dont forget to make it for piezos since they flow heaps lot more than magnets. Big Grin

There are quite big solenoid injectors too, I have new ones that give about 50% more then BMW550ds pizo injectors, orginal bosch, and they are resonantly fast at 8 event/ cykle according to bosch , now BMW can make 10 so a little bit slower there
Just Waiting for Baldur to start this up Smile
02-03-2019, 03:02 AM
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baldur Offline
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#12
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
I am making progress. First start up happened tonight. https://www.facebook.com/stalsmidjan.kna...056936849/
Timing is very late in that video so it smoked a lot and ran rough, and when I squeezed the accelerator pedal the smoke just changed colour instead of accelerating the engine, but I am satisfied with that result for the first start, it can only get better once I tune the timing and fuelling.

I do of course plan to make another version to drive piezo injectors once I have the controller for solenoid injectors in production.
[Image: 9YAk4VO.jpg]
Baldur Gislason

02-03-2019, 05:23 PM
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Motohead1 Offline
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#13
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
Very cool. Caint wait to see the final product.
02-03-2019, 08:01 PM
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starynovy Offline
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#14
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
Ou yeah it lives! Best thing from this would be lighting fast throttle response. I hated 320CDI for that slugish sleepy gas pedal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
02-04-2019, 12:30 PM
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baldur Offline
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#15
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(02-04-2019, 12:30 PM)starynovy Wrote: Ou yeah it  lives! Best thing from this would be lighting fast throttle response. I hated 320CDI for that slugish sleepy gas pedal.

How is this for throttle response? Big Grin 
https://www.facebook.com/stalsmidjan.kna...760243712/

I agree, I like quick response. That's my biggest complaint with modern cars, throttle response is non-existent, and the manufacturer made it that way intentionally.
Baldur Gislason

(This post was last modified: 02-04-2019, 04:34 PM by baldur.)
02-04-2019, 04:30 PM
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engineengineer Offline
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#16
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(02-04-2019, 04:30 PM)baldur Wrote:
(02-04-2019, 12:30 PM)starynovy Wrote: Ou yeah it  lives! Best thing from this would be lighting fast throttle response. I hated 320CDI for that slugish sleepy gas pedal.

How is this for throttle response? Big Grin 
https://www.facebook.com/stalsmidjan.kna...760243712/

I agree, I like quick response. That's my biggest complaint with modern cars, throttle response is non-existent, and the manufacturer made it that way intentionally.
Baldur, will this be usable on other engines? Particularly the Mitsubishi Fuso.
02-06-2019, 01:25 AM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#17
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(01-13-2019, 01:50 PM)baldur Wrote: It has been requested that I open a thread to discuss and share information about common rail diesel injection.
I am in the process of developing a controller to run solenoid controlled injectors, and plan to create a different power supply for piezoelectric injectors.
The difference there being that the solenoid injectors require high current and low voltage, although a moderate voltage (80 volts nominally) from a charged up capacitor is used to boost them during the opening phase to get a faster current rise. To keep them open requires only on the order of 6 volts.
Piezoelectric injectors on the other hand need a couple hundred volts to open, with high initial current and this voltage must be maintained to keep them open, at negligible current. Then in order to close them they require an inverse current as the piezoelectric element has internal capacitance that must be discharged.

Common rail is unique to most other injection control systems in that you have control over injection quantity and injection duration independently. Only other control system that offers this is hydraulically actuated unit injectors. Other solenoid controlled systems such as cam actuated unit injectors and injection pumps while allowing exact control of injection start and end do not have any way to control the rate of delivery  during the injection.

One advantage offered by direct electronic injection control that is not possible with rack controlled injection pumps is the ability to have multiple injection events during the combustion cycle. This feature is not unique to common rail but is also possible with some solenoid valve controlled unit injectors and some solenoid valve controlled injection pumps.
The primary advantage of this is being able to use pre-injection to heat up the air prior to starting the main combustion event, as this accelerates ignition of the fuel injected for the main combustion event and thus reduces diesel knock which is caused by a too abrupt ignition of the fuel (too much fuel is introduced before it is able to ignite in the chamber)

I will add more information to this post later. Feel free to ask any questions.

This sounds super. I think the blacksmoke guys are on a standalone ECU now also. No idea but their tuner seems to post on here from time to time. It seems like this is the new black art :-)   Perhaps one could retrofit a high pressure pump and piezo injectors to all those smoky 606 motors out there...
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2019, 04:19 AM by atypicalguy.)
02-06-2019, 04:16 AM
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baldur Offline
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#18
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(02-06-2019, 01:25 AM)engineengineer Wrote:
(02-04-2019, 04:30 PM)baldur Wrote:
(02-04-2019, 12:30 PM)starynovy Wrote: Ou yeah it  lives! Best thing from this would be lighting fast throttle response. I hated 320CDI for that slugish sleepy gas pedal.

How is this for throttle response? Big Grin 
https://www.facebook.com/stalsmidjan.kna...760243712/

I agree, I like quick response. That's my biggest complaint with modern cars, throttle response is non-existent, and the manufacturer made it that way intentionally.
Baldur, will this be usable on other engines? Particularly the Mitsubishi Fuso.

With this controller I plan to support nearly any engine that uses solenoid controlled high current injectors. Common rail, unit injectors (pumpe duse) and spill valve controlled injection pumps.
Baldur Gislason

02-06-2019, 04:40 AM
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baldur Offline
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#19
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(02-06-2019, 04:16 AM)atypicalguy Wrote:
(01-13-2019, 01:50 PM)baldur Wrote: It has been requested that I open a thread to discuss and share information about common rail diesel injection.
I am in the process of developing a controller to run solenoid controlled injectors, and plan to create a different power supply for piezoelectric injectors.
The difference there being that the solenoid injectors require high current and low voltage, although a moderate voltage (80 volts nominally) from a charged up capacitor is used to boost them during the opening phase to get a faster current rise. To keep them open requires only on the order of 6 volts.
Piezoelectric injectors on the other hand need a couple hundred volts to open, with high initial current and this voltage must be maintained to keep them open, at negligible current. Then in order to close them they require an inverse current as the piezoelectric element has internal capacitance that must be discharged.

Common rail is unique to most other injection control systems in that you have control over injection quantity and injection duration independently. Only other control system that offers this is hydraulically actuated unit injectors. Other solenoid controlled systems such as cam actuated unit injectors and injection pumps while allowing exact control of injection start and end do not have any way to control the rate of delivery  during the injection.

One advantage offered by direct electronic injection control that is not possible with rack controlled injection pumps is the ability to have multiple injection events during the combustion cycle. This feature is not unique to common rail but is also possible with some solenoid valve controlled unit injectors and some solenoid valve controlled injection pumps.
The primary advantage of this is being able to use pre-injection to heat up the air prior to starting the main combustion event, as this accelerates ignition of the fuel injected for the main combustion event and thus reduces diesel knock which is caused by a too abrupt ignition of the fuel (too much fuel is introduced before it is able to ignite in the chamber)

I will add more information to this post later. Feel free to ask any questions.

This sounds super. I think the blacksmoke guys are on a standalone ECU now also. No idea but their tuner seems to post on here from time to time. It seems like this is the new black art :-)   Perhaps one could retrofit a high pressure pump and piezo injectors to all those smoky 606 motors out there...

They may have, but I don't think they are. I think they are still using the EDC16 on the OM648, but they had struggles getting it to work properly although they got there eventually. Tuning OEM ECUs is a black art. I hope to make common rail diesel tuning less of a black art by making a controller that is a lot easier to tune.
My current version is not for piezo injectors but solenoid injectors, I plan to make a variant of the same controller for piezo injectors later, they require a very different power supply as piezo injectors are voltage controlled but solenoid injectors are current controlled.
I remember the finns built a direct injection OM606 some years ago, but I think this is a lot of trouble when there are so many good common rail engines becoming available.
Baldur Gislason

02-06-2019, 04:52 AM
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Sotvisp Offline
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#20
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
i think this is amazing work !!
I have been planning to do a transplant with BMW edc15 from tu30 to a om613 because its much easier to program the ecu as standalone and they are quite similar in many ways.
Very interesting to follow the progress here , what will such product cost when its up and running ??
Keep on Rocking....
Diesel Power
02-07-2019, 07:39 AM
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Sotvisp Offline
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#21
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(02-06-2019, 04:52 AM)baldur Wrote:
(02-06-2019, 04:16 AM)atypicalguy Wrote:
(01-13-2019, 01:50 PM)baldur Wrote: It has been requested that I open a thread to discuss and share information about common rail diesel injection.
I am in the process of developing a controller to run solenoid controlled injectors, and plan to create a different power supply for piezoelectric injectors.
The difference there being that the solenoid injectors require high current and low voltage, although a moderate voltage (80 volts nominally) from a charged up capacitor is used to boost them during the opening phase to get a faster current rise. To keep them open requires only on the order of 6 volts.
Piezoelectric injectors on the other hand need a couple hundred volts to open, with high initial current and this voltage must be maintained to keep them open, at negligible current. Then in order to close them they require an inverse current as the piezoelectric element has internal capacitance that must be discharged.

Common rail is unique to most other injection control systems in that you have control over injection quantity and injection duration independently. Only other control system that offers this is hydraulically actuated unit injectors. Other solenoid controlled systems such as cam actuated unit injectors and injection pumps while allowing exact control of injection start and end do not have any way to control the rate of delivery  during the injection.

One advantage offered by direct electronic injection control that is not possible with rack controlled injection pumps is the ability to have multiple injection events during the combustion cycle. This feature is not unique to common rail but is also possible with some solenoid valve controlled unit injectors and some solenoid valve controlled injection pumps.
The primary advantage of this is being able to use pre-injection to heat up the air prior to starting the main combustion event, as this accelerates ignition of the fuel injected for the main combustion event and thus reduces diesel knock which is caused by a too abrupt ignition of the fuel (too much fuel is introduced before it is able to ignite in the chamber)

I will add more information to this post later. Feel free to ask any questions.

This sounds super. I think the blacksmoke guys are on a standalone ECU now also. No idea but their tuner seems to post on here from time to time. It seems like this is the new black art :-)   Perhaps one could retrofit a high pressure pump and piezo injectors to all those smoky 606 motors out there...

They may have, but I don't think they are. I think they are still using the EDC16 on the OM648, but they had struggles getting it to work properly although they got there eventually. Tuning OEM ECUs is a black art. I hope to make common rail diesel tuning less of a black art by making a controller that is a lot easier to tune.
My current version is not for piezo injectors but solenoid injectors, I plan to make a variant of the same controller for piezo injectors later, they require a very different power supply as piezo injectors are voltage controlled but solenoid injectors are current controlled.
I remember the finns built a direct injection OM606 some years ago, but I think this is a lot of trouble when there are so many good common rail engines becoming available.

Blacksmoke engine seems to have Nira now days

https://youtu.be/tYE-QcvCjCM
Diesel Power
02-07-2019, 07:42 AM
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baldur Offline
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#22
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
(02-07-2019, 07:39 AM)Sotvisp Wrote: i think this is amazing work !!
I have been planning to do a transplant with BMW edc15 from tu30 to a om613 because its much easier to program the ecu as standalone and they are quite similar in many ways.
Very interesting to follow the progress here , what will such product cost when its up and running ??
Keep on Rocking....

Thank you.
I do not know what the cost will be until I finish the final design and get it manufactured. I want to make it affordable so it will be an attractive option for engine swaps and not just for the most hardcore tuning applications.
I also want to make casual tuning of common rail diesels accessible. It is notoriously difficult to get good results with the Bosch ECUs which are not designed to be tuned by the end user. A simple to use solution that isn't 4000 euros is going to enable a lot more people to start tuning their common rail engines, and not constrained by what the factory ECU can do.

Baldur
Baldur Gislason

(This post was last modified: 02-07-2019, 08:47 AM by baldur.)
02-07-2019, 08:28 AM
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baldur Offline
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#23
RE: Common rail diesel discussion thread
The prototype has been installed in a car. Here is an OM613 swapped Nissan Patrol. Tuning is not done yet but the engine runs and sounds very smooth and power is definitely better than the ZD30 engine it replaced.
https://www.facebook.com/stalsmidjan.kna...=3&theater
Using the stock auto transmission, accelerator pedal, instrument cluster and idle up switch. Everything works as if the car was stock, except it's got a better engine. None of that is easily done using a Mercedes ECU on a swap like this.
Baldur Gislason

02-16-2019, 07:17 AM
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