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OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
jav1 Offline
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#1
OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
I'm in the process of tuning my OM606.962 / DSL-1.  I have an upgraded VNT turbo and larger intercooler.  I'm running about 2bar of boost (3bar absolute) in an otherwise stock engine.

I believe I'm experiencing some exhaust valve float at around 4500 RPM.  Anyone have any experience with this?
12-19-2018, 01:23 PM
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barrote Offline
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#2
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
Usually it comes at low revs when u thr in first and second gear. Engine start to spit and unloads lifters... so u notice it right away. Lots of hammering and white smoke.
Anyhow an upgrade is always a must.
I got very strong spring available if u need pm.
Regards
FD,
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12-19-2018, 01:50 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#3
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
I'm having a problem getting past 4500 RPM... which I thought should be no problem on a stock 606? When I get close to 4500 RPM- I don't get white smoke- I get black smoke even though fuel and boost are the same as at 4400 RPM. I also get this very strange noise which doesn't show up very well in my log data. The concern is that the exhaust valves are not sealing at the end of the exhaust stroke due to high exhaust pressure? Has anyone experienced this?

I've though of installing heavier exhaust valve springs but I have 2 concerns. Camshaft wear AND, if this can be done without pulling the head? I could also just limit my RPM to around 4400 and be done with it but I'd like to understand if in fact this is normal on a stock 606 with 2 bar boost?
12-19-2018, 02:13 PM
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erx Offline
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#4
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
I dynoed stock engine with Holset HX52 and 3.5bar boost to 6000rpm and no problem. What turbo you have and what is EGP?
12-19-2018, 03:00 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#5
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
I have a gt2056V... not sure on EGP since my exhaust Map sensor broke.  I should have a new one installed tomorrow.  DO you know your EGP @ 3.5bar boost? I would presume around 4.5bar?
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2018, 03:12 PM by jav1.)
12-19-2018, 03:12 PM
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erx Offline
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#6
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
(12-19-2018, 03:12 PM)jav1 Wrote: I have a gt2056V... not sure on EGP since my exhaust Map sensor broke.  I should have a new one installed tomorrow.  DO you know your EGP @ 3.5bar boost? I would presume around 4.5bar?

Yes it was about 4.5bar egp.  We couldn't get over 3.2bar boost at first time but then we found out that we had 0,7bar backpressure in downpipe. I upgraded to 4" exhaust and we got 3.5bar boost. After that I upgraded to stiffer valve springs and it went over 3.5bar.

You can't say anything before you know your egp, maybe it's over 4bar and engine starts to choke. It's quite small turbo and you have to make sure that actuator is moving very precisely and is holding boost/egp ratio right.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2018, 03:28 PM by erx.)
12-19-2018, 03:22 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#7
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
So the 3.5 bar boost was with stiffer valve springs? Yes- turbo is small but is used on 3.2 liter diesel so I'm hoping it will be OK with my 3 liter. I know vanes are wide open and I have 3" exhaust so if there is a restriction- its the turbos exhaust section.

I doubt I have 4.5 bar EGP but who knows? I installed Chinese 7 bar map that didn't last very long. I have a 5 bar GM coming tomorrow.... we'll see what it is BUT- to be sure- your 4.5 bar was with the stiffer valve springs.. correct?
12-19-2018, 03:40 PM
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erx Offline
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#8
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
(12-19-2018, 03:40 PM)jav1 Wrote: So the 3.5 bar boost was with stiffer valve springs?  Yes- turbo is small but is used on 3.2 liter diesel so I'm hoping it will be OK with my 3 liter.  I know vanes are wide open and I have 3" exhaust so if there is a restriction- its the turbos exhaust section.

I doubt I have 4.5 bar EGP but who knows?  I installed Chinese 7 bar map that didn't last very long.  I have a 5 bar GM coming tomorrow.... we'll see what it is BUT- to be sure- your 4.5 bar was with the stiffer valve springs.. correct?

it made 3.5bar boost with stock springs after I put better exhaust. From which 3.2 engine your turbo came from? I don't know how many different versions of gt2056v's there are but I belive it's even smaller than om606 stock turbo. I use gt2359v which is a little bigger than stock om606 and it spools instantly.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2018, 04:04 PM by erx.)
12-19-2018, 04:03 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#9
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
2008 e320cdi - sorry, that's a 3.0 liter not 3.2. It's NOT smaller than the stock KKK turbo but it is smaller than the gt2359v. I tried to find gt2359v but I could not find a good one when I needed it. I read many great reviews on the gt2056v- it's supposed to have better aerodynamics (newer generation) than the 2359...and I do like it... I'm just concerned the turbine housing may be a bit too restrictive for 5000RPM? I'll know soon.


So your stock valve springs supported 6000 RPM with 4.5bar EBP?
12-19-2018, 04:18 PM
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erx Offline
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#10
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
(12-19-2018, 04:18 PM)jav1 Wrote: 2008 e320cdi - sorry, that's a 3.0 liter not 3.2.   It's NOT smaller than the  stock KKK turbo but it is smaller than the gt2359v.   I tried to find gt2359v but I could not find a good one when I needed it.  I read many great reviews on the gt2056v- it's supposed to have better aerodynamics (newer generation) than the 2359...and I do like it... I'm just concerned the turbine housing may be a bit too restrictive for 5000RPM?  I'll know soon.


So your stock valve springs supported 6000 RPM with 4.5bar EBP?

Yes first time when we couldn't get over 3.2bar boost we tried one pull to 6500rpm and no different sound or white smoke.
Do you have black smoke and enough fuel on 4500rpm when it starts to cut? If you are 100% sure that vanes are completely opened and there is enough fuel then it should go easily over 2 bar boost.
12-19-2018, 04:36 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#11
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
it's tough to be sure on the smoke color because that test was at night on the highway. For sure there was smoke... i thought black but it may have been white? Also for sure it was right at 4500 and I was pushing just under 2 bar of boost about 27psi on my gauge and in the log. The truck just stopped accelerating, started to smoke and made a really strange sound like it was on a rev limiter. I immediately lifted off the gas pedal and the transmission shifted- which put me at a lower RPM and then everything was fine. This has happened a few times and the logs all show good boost, good fuel , vanes wide open and nothing obvious to explain why the engine behaves that way...

Baldur suggested it might be valve float and it makes sense. I've also read that the stock valve springs are only good for about 45 pounds so if the exhaust is at even at 3.5-4 bar absolute and the piston is moving down after the exhaust stroke- it makes sense that forces COULD keep the valve from sealing?
12-19-2018, 09:18 PM
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firen456 Offline
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#12
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
Had valve float with a HE351CW 10cm housing, cast manifold from about 5000rpm @2.4bar. Stronger valve springs helped to cure this. This issue is more common than most of us think. I know minimum three OM engines from friends cars where valve float was present.
12-20-2018, 01:08 AM
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jav1 Offline
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#13
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
has anyone changed valve springs without removing the head? If this could be done without pulling the head then I may want to try that (If I find that EBP is above 4Bar absolute). Also- I'd probably only want to change the exhaust valve springs and increase the spring force about 50%... I wouldn't want to double the spring force since my goal is only to be able to rev up another 500-700 RPM to about 5000-5200 RPM because my OEM transmission controller shifts at around 4900 RPM @ WOT.
12-20-2018, 08:13 AM
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firen456 Offline
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#14
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
yes, already upgraded some enines with the head on them. You just have to turn the piston on tdc. You can take early CDI exhaust springs with part number: 6110530220. They fit plug and play.
12-20-2018, 08:28 AM
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jav1 Offline
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#15
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
Thank you firen456,


But I think there is a problem-  In this thread - post #88:

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...521&page=2


It would appear that part # 6110530220 spring is the same as the stock OM606 exhaust spring … it's just the new (superceded) number.  Someone was supposed to confirm that it was in fact stiffer but they never did (on that thread anyway)?  Or... has it been confirmed since then?
(This post was last modified: 12-20-2018, 09:25 AM by jav1.)
12-20-2018, 08:40 AM
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firen456 Offline
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#16
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
first CDI springs were the strong ones in in and ex. Then they changed in to the weaker ones in intake and left ex strong. The 6110530220 spring is the stron exhaust spring. I compared them to the OM60x springs and it's stronger.
12-20-2018, 10:40 AM
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jav1 Offline
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#17
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
Yeah- there was quite a lot of talk about this and the way I read it (and I've now re-read it 3 times) was ....   Yes with the CDI engine, the intake spring was made weaker BUT the exhaust spring was left "the same"- except they changed the part number twice.  

And by "the same" I believe that means it was the same spring as the original OM606.962  exhaust spring.  

One guy did compare an old OM606.962 exhaust spring against a NEW 61105300220 on a bolt and found the new one compressed less than the old one BUT... the size of the spring, wire and all, was the same.  It was my understanding from that- that the "stiffness" of the new spring was just because it was NEW - not because it was really a higher rate spring?
(This post was last modified: 12-20-2018, 11:05 AM by jav1.)
12-20-2018, 11:03 AM
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erx Offline
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#18
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
2 years ago before I did spring swap I tested exhaust valves and they start to bleed from 3bar pressure and at 4bar they blow all air through opened intake.

[Image: 64vBR2D.jpg]
12-20-2018, 03:20 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#19
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
Thats fantastic! Did you test again after the new spring?
12-20-2018, 05:49 PM
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erx Offline
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#20
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
(12-20-2018, 05:49 PM)jav1 Wrote: Thats fantastic!  Did you test again after the new spring?

I didn't test it with new springs because I tested stock springs on spare engine. Only difference I noticed after spring swap is that engine is making a little louder noise on idle and it made a little more boost. Springs came from KMcams and they were about twice as stiff, I don't remember any numbers.
12-22-2018, 12:47 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#21
RE: OM606.962 Valve Float @ raised boost?
I installed my new exhaust map sensor and I am seeing  just over 4 bar absolute... which I suspect is causing exhaust map float at higher rpm... seems ok in first gear but not in second or higher.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2018, 09:56 PM by jav1.)
12-23-2018, 09:54 PM
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