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722.6 w210 stall speed
50harleyrider Offline
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#1
722.6 w210 stall speed
Can anyone tell me the stall speed on these trannys which were oe on the 98-99 w210 E300 TD cars? I have to buy a torque converter for my 97 F150 conversion and am struggling with the proper stall speed I should spec. I'm using the Ford E4OD transmission with Baldur's DSL1 and a tuneable Quick 4 TCU. I made the mistake of buying a Hughes low stall 7.3 diesel tc and it sucks. I don't want to go with lower gearing or shorter tires yet as that would be a fuel mileage killer and look crappy on a 4x4 truck!

My patience is starting to run thin with the whole idea of an automatic in my truck. Slipping the clutch a bit or getting the truck moving with  a 6sp manual with a granny 1st gear sure would be a lot simpler for spool and takeoff not to mention better fuel mileage.
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2018, 09:50 AM by 50harleyrider.)
09-23-2018, 09:38 AM
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zeeman Offline
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#2
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(09-23-2018, 09:38 AM)50harleyrider Wrote: Can anyone tell me the stall speed on these trannys which were oe on the 98-99 w210 E300 TD cars? I have to buy a torque converter for my 97 F150 conversion and am struggling with the proper stall speed I should spec. I'm using the Ford E4OD transmission with Baldur's DSL1 and a tuneable Quick 4 TCU. I made the mistake of buying a Hughes low stall 7.3 diesel tc and it sucks. I don't want to go with lower gearing or shorter tires yet as that would be a fuel mileage killer and look crappy on a 4x4 truck!

My patience is starting to run thin with the whole idea of an automatic in my truck. Slipping the clutch a bit or getting the truck moving with  a 6sp manual with a granny 1st gear sure would be a lot simpler for spool and takeoff not to mention better fuel mileage
Your stall speed will depend on your gear ratio and tire size also. Talk to Evenglass on the forum. He used FTI Custom to build one for his Jeep Cherokee with a 700R4. He went with a 1850 rpm stall speed, talk to Greg at FTI 1-866-726-8358. You have to go with a higher stall speed with the Merc trans similar to a gas stall speed but you need the stronger internal diesel parts. You need a higher stall speed with the OM 606 to get the RPM'S up to get in the power band from a dead stop, or it will be a turd off the line. Gear ratio plays into this also, you probably need around a 3:55 to 3:73 depending on tire size to get any performance off the line with a heavy vehicle.
Zeeman
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2018, 11:04 AM by zeeman.)
09-24-2018, 10:55 AM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#3
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I'm sort of going through the same issue. I have an OM606/4L60E in a 2WD Silverado. My trans started overheating on the highway. I felt it might be the TC. I found a used, cheap one just to find out and sure enough, it WAS the TC. The problem is that after replacing the TC I found out that the one I removed was a 2050 stall, and I accidentally put a 1300. So my low end torque issues I had been struggling with got very noticeably worse. I plan to go back to at least the 2050 real soon; it'd be nice if I find something in the 2500 range. Although I really want to switch to a 6L80 or at least the 722.6, but that'll be when I come up with more money for that.
09-28-2018, 02:13 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#4
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
just curious- did you find out why the trans was overheating with the old TC? Was it not locking up? Was the lock up clutch worn?
09-28-2018, 03:06 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#5
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I haven’t found out exactly. I removed it and it’s just sitting there in my garage, haven’t taken it to open it. It had been rebuilt a few months before for cheap so I imediately suspected it wasn’t locking since it would happen on freeway only, and also assumed the shop did a crappy job—and sure enough, seems that was the case. I want to have it rebuilt to go back to that stall that worked better. Although first I wanted to use the 1300 a while to see if it doesn’t bust again for some other possible cause. Anyway, my two cents intended was that higher stall works better for the 606 in a truck. I may post on what exactly happened to the TC. Btw, the paint on it bubbled/burned.
09-30-2018, 12:08 PM
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zeeman Offline
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#6
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(09-30-2018, 12:08 PM)SilveradOM606 Wrote: I haven’t found out exactly. I removed it and it’s just sitting there in my garage, haven’t taken it to open it. It had been rebuilt a few months before for cheap so I imediately suspected it wasn’t locking since it would happen on freeway only, and also assumed the shop did a crappy job—and sure enough, seems that was the case. I want to have it rebuilt to go back to that stall that worked better. Although first I wanted to use the 1300 a while to see if it doesn’t bust again for some other possible cause. Anyway, my two cents intended was that higher stall works better for the 606 in a truck. I may post on what exactly happened to the TC. Btw, the paint on it bubbled/burned.

If the converter is not locking up it will overheat. You should be able to tell by the sound of the engine or by a tach.
You must use a torque converter for a diesel or diesel componets or it will not hold up to the diesel.
09-30-2018, 06:13 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#7
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Zeeman-

I'd love your input on the "diesel" torque converter statement ie. why the torque converter must be for a diesel? As a fluid coupling, I'm not sure I understand why a torque converter rated in excess of an engines output (diesel or gas) would be more prone to failure behind a diesel?
09-30-2018, 07:06 PM
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zeeman Offline
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#8
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(09-30-2018, 07:06 PM)jav1 Wrote: Zeeman-

I'd love your input on the "diesel" torque converter statement ie.  why the torque converter must be for a diesel?  As a fluid coupling, I'm not sure I understand why a torque converter rated in excess of an engines output (diesel or gas) would be more prone to failure behind a diesel?

Diesel torque is not the same as a gas engines torque. The operate in a different RPM range. Trust me the internal parts in a diesel torque converter are a lot stronger then with a gas torque converter.
10-01-2018, 12:45 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#9
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
After a short highway trip the TC would radiate a lot of heat. I could also hear it by the rpm telling me it wasn’t locking. And there was a barely notieable noise. So sounds likely it’ll happen again (damage it) until I get a disel TC. But I’m not sure I’ll be able to find a compatible one (4L60E) with approx. 2000 stall. I’ll start looking though. Very interesting to learn that they’re different and the diesel ones are tougher, I appreciate that input.
10-03-2018, 09:18 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#10
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
With respect to Zeeman, I agree that he is generally correct but I disagree on some finer points as follows.  There's a generally accepted concept that diesels produce more torque than gasoline versions of engines within the same vehicles.  Surely if you look at heavy duty trucks on offer from the US big 3, this is clearly the case when comparing Power-stroke, Duramax and Cummins to there gasoline counterparts.

Having said that, torque, as a unit of measure, is the same "force" whether produced via compression ignition, spark ignition or electric power.  So while it can be generally and truthfully said that diesel torque converters are a lot stronger than gas converters, I feel this is a bit off point.  The OM606.XXX in stock form, can hardly be compared to the heavy duty diesels employed here in the states.  It is a (comparatively) higher RPM, lower torque diesel that compares better to our larger gasoline engines than it does to our behemoth truck diesel engines. In fact,  the OM606.962 has a lower torque rating than many gasoline truck V8 engines. 

I do believe that by diesels nature, the compression ignition event may produce higher peak crank acceleration transients than a higher torque gasoline engine, BUT- I question that this will have any impact on torque converter longevity since it is a fluid coupling... and these transients should be absorbed by fluid flow and not transmitted directly such that mechanical failures would be eminent.  Now- this is just my "opinion" as I have no data to prove this view but I am a mechanical engineer, and I'm fairly well versed in fluid dynamics as well as cyclical load testing/failure analysis.

One area of concern is the lock up clutch.  Converter manufacturers do publish the overall torque rating for a converter, BUT they don't publish the lock up clutches ultimate torque rating.  I presume because the lock-up clutch is NOT intended to transmit HIGH torque demand events... it's usually unlocked in those cases to allow the fluid coupling and torque multiplication qualities of the converter to do their job.  Also- lockup torque can be increased by manipulating system pressure to a degree.  I think problems can arise in these diesel conversions because we're building a hybrid system by grafting a diesel engine where a gasoline engine used to be... and the truck/cars PCM may be trying to control the transmission/torque converter using input parameters that are likely different than originally intended.  I feel lock-up clutch/torque converter failures COULD be as much related to: less than optimal control strategies, AND weak/failing internals when too often, they are blamed on the "diesel engine" itself.

Unless you have a custom converter built, I doubt you will find a diesel torque converter with a high stall speed since most USA diesels are larger, low RPM, torque monsters.  And- if you use a low stall diesel torque converter, while I'm sure it won't fail,  I doubt you'll be happy with the performance.  IMHO- I would use a high stall gasoline torque converter that is rated in excess of the torque your engine produces and make sure the control strategy is working properly IE. that lock up occurs only when the transmission slip is less than 5% and engine power demand is below 50%.

That's my .02c.
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2018, 10:18 AM by jav1.)
10-04-2018, 07:51 AM
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zeeman Offline
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#11
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(10-04-2018, 07:51 AM)jav1 Wrote: With respect to Zeeman, I agree that he is generally correct but I disagree on some finer points as follows.  There's a generally accepted concept that diesels produce more torque than gasoline versions of engines within the same vehicles.  Surely if you look at heavy duty trucks on offer from the US big 3, this is clearly the case when comparing Power-stroke, Duramax and Cummins to there gasoline counterparts.

Having said that, torque, as a unit of measure, is the same "force" whether produced via compression ignition, spark ignition or electric power.  So while it can be generally and truthfully said that diesel torque converters are a lot stronger than gas converters, I feel this is a bit off point.  The OM606.XXX in stock form, can hardly be compared to the heavy duty diesels employed here in the states.  It is a (comparatively) higher RPM, lower torque diesel that compares better to our larger gasoline engines than it does to our behemoth truck diesel engines. In fact,  the OM606.962 has a lower torque rating than many gasoline truck V8 engines. 

I do believe that by diesels nature, the compression ignition event may produce higher peak crank acceleration transients than a higher torque gasoline engine, BUT- I question that this will have any impact on torque converter longevity since it is a fluid coupling... and these transients should be absorbed by fluid flow and not transmitted directly such that mechanical failures would be eminent.  Now- this is just my "opinion" as I have no data to prove this view but I am a mechanical engineer, and I'm fairly well versed in fluid dynamics as well as cyclical load testing/failure analysis.

One area of concern is the lock up clutch.  Converter manufacturers do publish the overall torque rating for a converter, BUT they don't publish the lock up clutches ultimate torque rating.  I presume because the lock-up clutch is NOT intended to transmit HIGH torque demand events... it's usually unlocked in those cases to allow the fluid coupling and torque multiplication qualities of the converter to do their job.  Also- lockup torque can be increased by manipulating system pressure to a degree.  I think problems can arise in these diesel conversions because we're building a hybrid system by grafting a diesel engine where a gasoline engine used to be... and the truck/cars PCM may be trying to control the transmission/torque converter using input parameters that are likely different than originally intended.  I feel lock-up clutch/torque converter failures COULD be as much related to: less than optimal control strategies, AND weak/failing internals when too often, they are blamed on the "diesel engine" itself.

Unless you have a custom converter built, I doubt you will find a diesel torque converter with a high stall speed since most USA diesels are larger, low RPM, torque monsters.  And- if you use a low stall diesel torque converter, while I'm sure it won't fail,  I doubt you'll be happy with the performance.  IMHO- I would use a high stall gasoline torque converter that is rated in excess of the torque your engine produces and make sure the control strategy is working properly IE. that lock up occurs only when the transmission slip is less than 5% and engine power demand is below 50%.

That's my .02c.

My point was you are not going to find a gas torque converter with the stall speed you need, that will hold up to the diesel. The torque power curve of the OM 606 is much different then a gas engine power torque. Hence the need to have a gas stall speed with the diesel internals.

Also what is controlling the shift points now? Do you have an after market controller? Diesel shift points are different from gas also.

Even though both are a fluid coupling the input shaft is connected to a clutch hub in the converter that is designed for a gas engines torque curve.

And I will repeat the Diesel torque is different from gas torque, the piston power stroke in a gas engine is not the same. In fact the OM 606 fires after TDC.

If you notice on the OM 606 the alternator pulley has a one way clutch designed into it. This for the different harmonics of the diesel on deceleration.

I have already given a name of a company that can do this earlier in this blog. This is not rocket science, just common sense.
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2018, 03:33 PM by zeeman.)
10-04-2018, 03:12 PM
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AlanMcR Offline
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#12
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I was also going to point out the alternator pulley.  At low RPM, and particularly at idle, the OM606 crank rotational speed is very jumpy.  The inertia of the 115A alternator will tear up the accessory belt in a few miles without the one-way clutch.  I sacrificed a couple of belts to make that discovery.

The torque converter is similarly directly connected to the crank and must get jerked around pretty hard on low RPM acceleration.
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2018, 11:39 PM by AlanMcR.)
10-04-2018, 11:38 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#13
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Thanks for the additional info gents. I will be big enough to say I was wrong should that prove to be the case. I'm wrapping up my OM606 conversion and used a high stall gas torque converter and non over-run alternator (pulley). I'm putting that out there for full disclosure and while I'm still a few weeks away from firing it up, I will certainly be honest and forthright should my choices prove mistakes.

Unfortunately (or foolishly depending on your point of view), my bigger fears about this conversion are not (currently) my torque converter or alternator pulley but time reveals all- and I'll share my findings.
10-05-2018, 07:19 AM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#14
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Very interesting input you all have. I'm fairly naive when it comes to swaps and TCs and their internals, etc. Although some of the good points you guys mention did cross my mind, simply as speculation. For instance, I assumed the 4L60E TC should be strong enough mated to an OM606 with only 6mm elements intended for daily driving; shouldn't that be a fairly reasonable assumption!

So I am using a standalone TCU (Fast EZ-TCU). I'm not sure if this was a good choice for use with the OM606. And I have wondered if the way the TCU is controlling fluid pressure, shift points, etc, is adequate for the 4L60E, TC, etc. But again, I assumed for daily driving there might be no harm if this TCU wasn't exactly the ideal one. I guess time will tell if I destroy the TC I'm currently using. If that happens, then I will start to custom fab a TC with internals for a diesel application.

Something else to add, I had been struggling to get good power, and I thought it might be the small turbo chocking the engine. I got a vnt turbo (GT23V) and power seemed to improve. So I started horsing around reving over 4k rpm which is when the motor came alive nicely, and incidently around that time is when my TC went out. I can almost say I heard/felt exactly when it happened. It continued to run/shift fine with hardly noticeable noise, although it would overheat on the highway.

I really want to go back to 2000 stall...but at the same time I want to use this cheap ($30) 1300 TC a bit more to see if it'll happen again. I will start driving it like I stole it again to see if the TC will blow again.
10-05-2018, 12:11 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#15
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
My opinion-

4l60e torque rating 480Nm....606.962 torque rating 340 Nm...  safe assumption in my book.

I don't have much experience with the fast EZ but as I recall, there are a few TCC parameters you can set.  I believe sys pressure, min speed and Max TPS.  As I recall there's also a hardware input to force the tcc to lock.   Did you set the parameters?

BTW- How are you controlling the GT23V now?
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2018, 02:24 PM by jav1.)
10-05-2018, 01:32 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#16
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
The EZ-TCU does not let you olay with the system pressure. I set the speed and tps at 50mph and 30% respectively. Let me know if in your opinion either is a bit off, they seem/feel resonable to me. One problem I suspect is that, since the 603/6mm pump does not deliver much at low rpm, I have to push the gas pedal to the point that the TCU down-shifts when normally it would not be necessary considering the moderate power/fuel I command. This in turn also increases line pressure, I think, far more than necessary for the torque/HP being generated. So TCU know TPS demand but does jot know fuel/power output. Hope you get what I mean.

I’m currently controlling the GT23V with boost actuator, so not very precise. Just got Baldur’s ECU and I will try to control the GT by vacuum with this ECU.
10-05-2018, 10:22 PM
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zeeman Offline
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#17
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(10-05-2018, 12:11 PM)SilveradOM606 Wrote: Very interesting input you all have. I'm fairly naive when it comes to swaps and TCs and their internals, etc. Although some of the good points you guys mention did cross my mind, simply as speculation. For instance, I assumed the 4L60E TC should be strong enough mated to an OM606 with only 6mm elements intended for daily driving; shouldn't that be a fairly reasonable assumption!

So I am using a standalone TCU (Fast EZ-TCU). I'm not sure if this was a good choice for use with the OM606. And I have wondered if the way the TCU is controlling fluid pressure, shift points, etc, is adequate for the 4L60E, TC, etc. But again, I assumed for daily driving there might be no harm if this TCU wasn't exactly the ideal one. I guess time will tell if I destroy the TC I'm currently using. If that happens, then I will start to custom fab a TC with internals for a diesel application.

Something else to add, I had been struggling to get good power, and I thought it might be the small turbo chocking the engine. I got a vnt turbo (GT23V) and power seemed to improve. So I started horsing around reving over 4k rpm which is when the motor came alive nicely, and incidently around that time is when my TC went out. I can almost say I heard/felt exactly when it happened. It continued to run/shift fine with hardly noticeable noise, although it would overheat on the highway.

I really want to go back to 2000 stall...but at the same time I want to use this cheap ($30) 1300 TC a bit more to see if it'll happen again. I will start driving it like I stole it again to see if the TC will blow again.
I understand there may be a money issue here but, if your TC fails all the debris goes through the transmission. so not only has the TC destroyed itself but the transmission as well. Money well spent getting everything right in the beginning instead of trial an error.

You haven't stated if the transmission is new, or if your running a transmission cooler. Everything plays into this, tire size, gear ratio, torque converter stall speed and gearing. Just trying to help out.

Does your controller use a speed sensor?

Talk to the company in the beginning of this blog. I think they will save you money and grief in the long run.
10-06-2018, 01:55 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#18
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I had rebuilt the transmission myself about a year ago. It worked flawlessly from the start; one of my first rebuilds. The EZ-TCU comes with a monitor that shows temp, never got over 160F before the TC issue, which is pretty cool. My strategy with the $30 TC was to rule it out. If I rebuilt the tranny again might be for only a couple months if the problem was something else. And it could very well be something else but so far so good. Next I’ll remove the tranny again to inspect inside, back to 2000 stall TC, and fill it with fresh oil.

No trans cooler but again, it runs very cool. I run 30” tires, 3.73 gear, 2000 stall at first and 1300 now which I don’t like. And I very much appreciate every word u type. I’ll take a stab talking to the company, although I haven’t been super lucky talking to other companies like TCI/TCU. I relly hope that the $70 rebuild of my first converter was the issue. How much could the guy have done for $70!!
10-06-2018, 11:25 PM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#19
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Well, hopefully in summation, I can provide some real world comparisons with a higher stall gas converter vs a very expensive Hughes 1200 stall diesel one. Stay away from the diesel 1200 stall. The 606.962 just doesn't make useful hp and torque below 1200 RPM. I have the logs to prove it. The more mods one does with turbos and fueling, the worse it will get. When mine hits the real power, hang on! Very obvious need for a gutsy tc. I think zeeman is on the right track with a 2000 stall converter with heavy duty guts. That's my goal this winter. Thanks zeeman and let us know if you fing out any more info about availability. Let's face it, these are not common apps for the mfrs. so we need to have confidence.
10-08-2018, 06:28 AM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#20
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Zeeman,

Is it possible to ask my TC guy to rebuild my 4L60E TC using diesel internals or will he not be able to find compatible diesel parts for my gas TC?
10-08-2018, 02:30 PM
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zeeman Offline
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#21
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(10-08-2018, 02:30 PM)SilveradOM606 Wrote: Zeeman,

Is it possible to ask my TC guy to rebuild my 4L60E TC using diesel internals or will he not be able to find compatible diesel parts for my gas TC?

I don't see why not, the guy that does my converters in Spokane Washington can. He also welds the vanes in the converter by hand with a heliarc. Have you contacted the company that Evenglass used I posted earlier in the blog. Or you can even PM Evenglass very helpful guy.

I would stay away from the large TC companies, they won't want to be bothered.

Zeeman
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2018, 02:36 PM by zeeman.)
10-10-2018, 02:34 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#22
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Haven’t talked to the company yet, it’s on my to do list. I got overwhelmed collecting parts and making a harness for the ECU to switch to an EDC pump. My tranny continues to work fine but I’ll talk to FTI real soon to pick their brain and try to get the right TC once and for good. Thanks much for the tip, I’ll post soon my talk with FTI.
10-11-2018, 12:21 AM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#23
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I PM'd Evenglass, still waiting for his reply.

Something I'd like to get off my chest and maybe get your two cents on. Some background: again, I have a Silverado/OM606/603(6mm)/4L60E set up with GT23V turbo that spool real quick. If I start gentle on the gas pedal and accelerate gradually the motor runs real smooth; not much power but it moves decently, again a bit dull/slow on the low rpm. Then it'll come alive nicely after say 2700 rpm. The problem is that if right at take off or at low rpm I go heavy on the gas pedal, it almost feels like it chockes, I just don't feel any more acceleration increase, in fact, it almost feels like it gets worse, as if it chocked due to hight EGP or something; this would be between idle and 2600 rpm, and 0 to about 10 psi boost; after that it takes off reall nice. I don't see much smoke eventhough I've turned up the torque capsule on the pump a bit, and it doesn't matter how heavy I go on the pedal either. There's enough fueld and boost that should produce increased acceleration.

So I've wondered, is it possible that the more I step on the gas, the more the TCU increases line pressure therefore making the truck feel like I pull a heavier load? I would assume that increased line pressure only goes to compress the trans clutches harder (more work from the engine simply going to the transmission pistons and friction plates). Or should that line pressure increase (if it's even the case) be negligible such that it should not translate into noticeable load/performance drop?
10-12-2018, 12:18 PM
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zeeman Offline
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#24
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(10-12-2018, 12:18 PM)SilveradOM606 Wrote: I PM'd Evenglass, still waiting for his reply.

Something I'd like to get off my chest and maybe get your two cents on. Some background: again, I have a Silverado/OM606/603(6mm)/4L60E set up with GT23V turbo that spool real quick. If I start gentle on the gas pedal and accelerate gradually the motor runs real smooth; not much power but it moves decently, again a bit dull/slow on the low rpm. Then it'll come alive nicely after say 2700 rpm. The problem is that if right at take off or at low rpm I go heavy on the gas pedal, it almost feels like it chockes, I just don't feel any more acceleration increase, in fact, it almost feels like it gets worse, as if it chocked due to hight EGP or something; this would be between idle and 2600 rpm, and 0 to about 10 psi boost; after that it takes off reall nice. I don't see much smoke eventhough I've turned up the torque capsule on the pump a bit, and it doesn't matter how heavy I go on the pedal either. There's enough fueld and boost that should produce increased acceleration.

So I've wondered, is it possible that the more I step on the gas, the more the TCU increases line pressure therefore making the truck feel like I pull a heavier load? I would assume that increased line pressure only goes to compress the trans clutches harder (more work from the engine simply going to the transmission pistons and friction plates). Or should that line pressure increase (if it's even the case) be negligible such that it should not translate into noticeable load/performance drop?

You have to get the engine in its power range, you need the 1800 stall TC. The line pressure increases on the clutch packs in relation to the position of the throttle pedal. The only thing that will affect engine RPM is the TC. or down shifting.
10-12-2018, 12:51 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#25
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Very good! I’ll get back to the higher stall. Today I talked to my TC guy and he says he can turn my 2000 stall TC into a diesel version (went to talk to him and forgot to take the TC with me, he could have opened it and seen the actual failure). It’ll be a few days but I’ll post an update when ready.
10-12-2018, 04:17 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#26
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Ok, so I finally got to opening the TC that apparently was overheating my transmission when driving on the highway, seemingly when the lock-up should have been applied. Well, to my surprise everything inside the TC was in perfect condition, clutch and everything without any signs of overheating. So I’m confussed, I don’t know how to explain the overheating when the problem went away as soon as I replaced the TC with another used one. I did not do absolutely anything else, even used the same burt oil, didn’t even refill since it was a bit low. So go figure! Any ideas?

Something else, these last few days the transmission seems to get stuck while trying to downshift, as if the TC got stuck locked up or as if a downshifting valve/solenoid was getting stuck. The transmission temp is fine though, and it wasn’t doing this when I was having the overheating problem. I hope it’s that I’m a bit oow on fluid, maybe more than a quart. I was waiting to replace the TC to change the oil...while I also try to make of my TC a diesel version, a decision I’m trying to make in a day or two.
11-03-2018, 11:09 AM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#27
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
…not sure if anyone else is following this thread, but I want to post another update to answer an above question: so again, I had my TC opened and since I couldn’t make a decision on the spot (at the shop) as to what to do with it, I took it home with me in pieces. I decided to clean it real good for a thorough inspection, I was left puzzled to be told that there was nothing wrong with it. Anyway, I had never seen the internals of a TC and I don’t know the part names, but the part with the friction clutch (sort of looks like frying pan) has a crack approximately 4 inches long. I’m not 100% certain, but to me this means that it leaks fluid pressure through that crack as the TC is in lock-up mode. The strange part is that even though the fluid looks dirty and smells a bit burnt, that friction clutch looks intact, as if the debris and burning came from other friction plates inside the transmission (I may open it later and check). However, my point is that I feel pretty confident the mystery problem has been revealed, that crack was leaking fluid pressure thus preventing full lock-up which resulted in slippage friction and overheating. Why the crack though!!?? I’ll have to wait and see if I manage crack it again. I will talk again with my TC guy to see if he feels real confident that he can convert my TC to a diesel version. Either way I’ll be going back to my 2000 stall pretty soon, which worked plenty better for me than the 1300 I have today.
11-05-2018, 11:16 AM
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jav1 Offline
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#28
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I'm following along... IMHO, I'd be suspect of a TC shop said the TC was fine and then YOU (a non TC expert), finds a 4" crack? I'm not a TC expert myself and I would seek an informed opinion with your new revelation. At least to me it would seem plausible that the crack is such that lock up pressure and thus "lock-up" could not be maintained, this could explain overheating.
As an side- the heat generation may not have come from the clutches friction surface. Without lock-up, it's my understanding that just the fluid action acting between the impellor, stator and the turbine generates heat... it may have been a combination of factors contributing to the temperature rise.
11-05-2018, 02:44 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#29
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Quite frankly, it’s not the first time I deciphered something before others, that were supposed to have expertise in something, did. It’s fairly common that shops run their operation with guys that barely know much, assebly line style. Or it might be simple human error. They opened it and looked at the clutch and “o” ring and called it good. The dirty oil made it hard to see the crack. What I would like at this point is an expert opinion on why it cracked to begin with. I’ll repeat that I think I knew the exact moment when it happened, I was accelerating on full throttle. Now assuming that to be correct, does that say that line pressure was maxed and the line pressure cracked the steel. Boy I would assume cracking that steel would take an excessive amount of pressure the oil pump wouldn’t be able to make...but who knows! And I think you make a pretty good point about the combination of heat factors, which in turn explains the clutch material not burning and the TC paint (from the last rebuild) not burning either. I will try to talk to an expert about the possible crack source, but I think the trans overheating reason has been solved.
11-05-2018, 07:42 PM
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jav Offline
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#30
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I for sure would talk to a trusted TC guy that knows his stuff. The guy that said he strengthen a converter to run diesel duty... that isn't they guy that said this one was fine was it??
11-05-2018, 09:24 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#31
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
No, it was a local guy that sells transmission parts and rebuilds TCs. He’s not super knowlegeable but I can’t resist his prices. I also cannot blame him for the TC rebuild, it was my own part that failed, not his work. I’ll definetely try to talk to an expert...when I manage to find one actually willing to share some knowledge.
11-05-2018, 11:26 PM
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whipplem104 Offline
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#32
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
So I have not read all of this. But I am going to say that most of this is nonsense. Take the lock up clutch out of the equation. A converter has a stall speed based on tq and load etc. What type of engine is in front of it is not relevant. Diesels make low end tq and big diesels have a narrow RPM range so you need large tq converters that are fairly tight to hold them in their operating RPM range. But you can totally use a converter from a gas engine in a diesel. It will work. If the stall is good and the slip rate is fine then that is really all there is. With any engine being used here they have more of a gasoline rpm range. A 606 has close to the same rpm operating range as any older chevy v8.
So now holding power. If you make a lot of torque you can overpower a converter. It will become a heat pump with terrible efficiency. This is typically called blowing through the converter. Again nothing to do with the lock up clutch.
And as an example for this. I have a gasoline C230 or E320 converter on a 700lbft w/tq om606. It has been stalled up a bit so that would make it looser we had a stock one in it originally. It held just fine as does the current one.
No lock up. There is a difference on the lock up in the Mercedes converters and I would expect others. But this is mostly for dampening. If you lock up a converter at low rpm on a diesel where it has significant mass and vibration then it will break the converter dampening. They have the same parts as a manual transmission clutch to dampen vibrations. But this problem can be avoided by controlled slip regulation if you trans is capable and the tcu is capable and or locking up at higher rpms where the vibrations are not present.
There is a ton more to say on this but that is the jist.
11-06-2018, 10:43 AM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#33
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Whipplem, that's real valuable info you're sharing with us. It sounds like my gas TC from the 4L60E transmission is not a bad match for the OM606, and that's the main thing I was curious about. Although I'm still not sure where the "nonsense" is but that's somewhat irrelevant now. Our discussion about TC lock-up was because I started having an overheating problem on highway driving, the problem emerged out of the clear blue and I suspected it might be that the TC was not locking up. However, just a couple of days ago I discovered a crack on a TC part (where the clutch goes). Based on the type of crack, I assume that perhaps it was somehow causing the overheating problem.
11-06-2018, 05:19 PM
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firen456 Offline
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#34
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Quote:And as an example for this. I have a gasoline C230 or E320 converter on a 700lbft w/tq om606. It has been stalled up a bit so that would make it looser we had a stock one in it originally. It held just fine as does the current one. 
Have the same problem in my build. Using a 270CDI converter and it stalls at about 2k. Have a C180 W203 converter lying here which I wanna fit. How much raised the stall speed about with your gasser converter? And what do u think about the C180 converter? I will check the part number in EPC to check in which other models the converter was fitted.
11-08-2018, 06:19 AM
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firen456 Offline
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#35
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Did some investigation... The C180 W203 converter (202 250 12 02) is also used in the M104 320 Ssanyong cars... The MB E320 M104 cars have a different converter (202 250 05 02). Maybe there is a diff in stall speed between these two converters. The diesel engines (CDI and IDI turbo) have part number 210 250 06 02. This should be the converter with the lowest stall speed in my mind.

   
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2018, 09:51 AM by firen456.)
11-08-2018, 09:47 AM
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whipplem104 Offline
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#36
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Stall speed is not static. if you increase power the stall goes up. So picking one from a specific model does not work if you change it to another. And almost all Mercedes converters are so close to each other that it does not matter much. Just use the one you have and see what the stall is and the power you are making and send it to a converter place to have them change it. At most it takes a couple of tries.
11-08-2018, 10:20 AM
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firen456 Offline
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#37
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
ok, thank u. It's clear to me that stall speed rises with rising engine torque. Been searching for a converter shop in europe which can modify the tq, but wasn't successful so far. In the states it seems the big builders like FTI only do the big converters for hemi engines but not the small ones that fit in the "inline" bell housing. The only company that sells a high stall converter for the small housing is Turbobandit but he takes about 1700€ for it. That's way to much in my mind. Can u tell me a aproximate number your stall speed rised after u swapped the diesel tq for the gasser tq?
11-08-2018, 12:24 PM
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whipplem104 Offline
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#38
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
There is nothing special to changing the stall in these converters. I find it hard to believe that there are not shops that do this in Europe. Thats kind of like saying no one in Europe rebuilds Chevy engines but they do all other make and models. You have to send one in and have it done. You cannot buy one off the shelf. So what ever you have in your car now. Find out how it stalls with your power and then have it changed. Like I said it may take a few tries. We went from stock stall at around 1900rpm to 2200-2300 on the foot brake. We are going to redo it to get it to 2700-3000 rpm. But when boost comes on it will go way up. So we dont want to be to loose otherwise we will blow through the converter. We may have to do it again. No one can sell you a converter that works properly on your car if they have not done it before. Almost exaclty the same setup.
11-08-2018, 06:31 PM
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zeeman Offline
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#39
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
(11-08-2018, 12:24 PM)firen456 Wrote: ok, thank u. It's clear to me that stall speed rises with rising engine torque. Been searching for a converter shop in europe which can modify the tq, but wasn't successful so far. In the states it seems the big builders like FTI only do the big converters for hemi engines but not the small ones that fit in the "inline" bell housing. The only company that sells a high stall converter for the small housing is Turbobandit but he takes about 1700€ for it. That's way to much in my mind. Can u tell me a aproximate number your stall speed rised after u swapped the diesel tq for the gasser tq?

This is all such BS. Has anyone called Greg at FTI and talked to him. Has anyone talked to Evenglass? You know sometimes you have to step up and pay the money if you want sometime right, or you can keep throwing time and money at it till hell freezes over.
11-08-2018, 08:05 PM
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whipplem104 Offline
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#40
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
I pay around 650-750 for custom stall. we do it all the time. Stop
thinking about these big companies having it on the shelf.
11-08-2018, 11:23 PM
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firen456 Offline
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#41
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Quote:There is nothing special to changing the stall in these converters. I find it hard to believe that there are not shops that do this in Europe. Thats kind of like saying no one in Europe rebuilds Chevy engines but they do all other make and models. You have to send one in and have it done. You cannot buy one off the shelf. So what ever you have in your car now. Find out how it stalls with your power and then have it changed. Like I said it may take a few tries. We went from stock stall at around 1900rpm to 2200-2300 on the foot brake. We are going to redo it to get it to 2700-3000 rpm. But when boost comes on it will go way up. So we dont want to be to loose otherwise we will blow through the converter. We may have to do it again. No one can sell you a converter that works properly on your car if they have not done it before. Almost exaclty the same setup.

I know many people here which work an US cars here. But they all buy their converters in the states. Thanks for your advice. I will start with the C180 converter and see how it behaves. The numbers you told me, sound promising. I see boost from 2k on. A stall speed of 200-300rpm more should get the car a little looser. After that I still can try a custom converter.
11-09-2018, 12:56 PM
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SilveradOM606 Offline
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#42
RE: 722.6 w210 stall speed
Zeeman, I did, I sent messages but never heard back from either. And I didn’t insist because I was trying to first figure out my overheating mystery. So less than an hour ago I Went to talk to my TC guy and to show him the crack I found. Without questions he offered to give me another one, and said he could get me a 2200 stall. I took his offer to see how it’ll work, before I pay him big bucks to convert it to diesel. Stepping up and paying the big money without knowing for sure what stall will work doesn’t work for me. The fact that I’ve been able to try different speeds for virtually no money is an option I can’t resist, specially considering I already wasted a lot of money on my project on decisions that didn’t work even when I thought they were informed. I’ll get the 2200 maybe tomorrow.
11-09-2018, 06:01 PM
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