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good VNT upgrade for a K14
50harleyrider Offline
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#1
good VNT upgrade for a K14
I'm looking to get the quickest  possible spoolup for my F-150 606.962 so I'm looking to a VGT replacement for the k14 wastegated turbo. I'm running Baldurs DSL1 with a nice unrestricted air inlet and IC setup, stock IP and a 2.5" exhaust with a cat and a free flow muffler. Should I try an open exhaust(no cat or muffler first)? My HP requirement will not be much more than the oe setup but my truck is 1000 lbs heavier. I am running the E4OD with a USSHIFT tcu. Baldur thinks my stall is too low on the TC I'm using. He's probably right but even with the truck rolling it's still slow spooling and smoky. I want to get all I can before I start changing TC's or lower the gearing. The truck is turning around 2000 RPM at 70 MPH and feels really nice there.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2018, 02:00 PM by 50harleyrider.)
07-04-2018, 01:39 PM
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Mr.Emo Offline
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#2
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
He341ve?
07-04-2018, 02:17 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#3
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
i would look at a GT2359V or a GTB2260VKLR off of a OM642. they are both the right size for a 606 making a bit more than stock power and are a modern Garrett that should spool quite fast. i have heard the the 2260 can support ~250 ish maxed out but with it being a GTB series and not too big should light right around the stock turbo or sooner.
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
07-04-2018, 04:17 PM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#4
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
Isn't the GTB2260VKLR more suitable for a 1.9 TDI? Seems small for a 3 liter 24 valve 606.
07-04-2018, 07:33 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#5
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
it pushes enough air for a 642 to make 300+. if you are not going much past stock like 200-225 ish and not turning it past 5500-6000 or so it should work fine.
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
07-04-2018, 08:45 PM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#6
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
How about this reman Garrett GT2056V? https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-TURBO-GT205...1438.l2649
It is for a 2.8 Jeep Cherokee so I can probably find a turbine exit pipe in the States. All the GT2556V I've found are Chinese. A new or reman Garrett will be really hard to find in the US since the BMW 330d wasn't imported. How about a baby Holset?
(This post was last modified: 07-12-2018, 11:01 PM by 50harleyrider.)
07-12-2018, 10:58 PM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#7
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
(07-04-2018, 04:17 PM)R-3350 Wrote: i would look at a GT2359V or a GTB2260VKLR off of a OM642. they are both the right size for a 606 making a bit more than stock power and are a modern Garrett that should spool quite fast. i have heard the the 2260 can support ~250 ish maxed out but with it being a GTB series and not too big should light right around the stock turbo or sooner.

+1 on the 2359V. I think that one is stock on the OM648. Should spool instantly.
07-13-2018, 12:31 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#8
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
look for a used turbo off a 320 cdi or a 350 bluetec those would be the ones you are interested in
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
07-13-2018, 10:50 AM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#9
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
I bought a GTA2359VK off a 2005 OM648. Baldur and I are contemplating how to control the electronic actuator with his DSL1. I hate to downgrade to a vacuum controller but may have to for simplicity of control. There are only three wires running to this controller so I hoped it defaults to one direction when powered and an ecu signal tells it to reverse. Has anyone on here had experience with these guys? the TDI vnt turbos I have are simple vacuum controlled with the spring direction default and the vacuum opposite. simple linear plus or minus control. Why wouldn't the electronic be the same with its' internal control defaulting the motor one direction until the signal from the ecu tells it to reverse? I'm so exited to have a vnt for spoolup as the effective AR is really low from idle so major spool improvement over the wastegate..
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2018, 07:34 PM by 50harleyrider.)
07-24-2018, 07:30 PM
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Mr.Emo Offline
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#10
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
What are you hoping to get hp wise?
07-25-2018, 02:56 AM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#11
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
(07-25-2018, 02:56 AM)Mr.Emo Wrote: What are you hoping to get hp wise?

That turbo will easily produce 200+hp on a 3 liter diesel. My goal here is to achieve the maximum early spool off idle taking full advantage of a variable vanes' huge advantage over a wastegated turbos' slow low rpm spoolup. Its all about the low AR ratio which a wastegated turbo just doesn't have at low rpm. Low AR means high exhaust gas velocity through the turbine blades and quick spool.
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2018, 06:29 AM by 50harleyrider.)
07-25-2018, 06:19 AM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#12
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
What are folks using for oil supply lines to aftermarket turbos on the OM606.962 engines? The Garrett I have chosen has a smaller hard piped line than the OE K14. Both have banjo fittings, the oe K14 much larger. I'd like to adapt the large pipe to a braided hose that will fit the smaller banjo fitting on the Garrett. Also need to adapt the drain line. The K14 drain line has a hard piped 2 bolt flange on the outlet and the Garrett the same but smaller. I need to keep the drain line as large as possible to protect the turbo seals.
08-06-2018, 02:57 PM
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starynovy Offline
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#13
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
Fully closed it will boost from 1200RPM no problem, but max. power is limited on these. 250HP would be around maximum, it may make 300HP but not on prechamber diesel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
08-06-2018, 03:27 PM
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Austincarnut Offline
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#14
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
(07-24-2018, 07:30 PM)50harleyrider Wrote: I bought a GTA2359VK off a 2005 OM648. Baldur and I are contemplating how to control the electronic actuator with his DSL1. I hate to downgrade to a vacuum controller but may have to for simplicity of control. There are only three wires running to this controller so I hoped it defaults to one direction when powered and an ecu signal tells it to reverse. Has anyone on here had experience with these guys? the TDI vnt turbos I have are simple vacuum controlled with the spring direction default and the vacuum opposite. simple linear plus or minus control. Why wouldn't the electronic be the same with its' internal control defaulting the motor one direction until the signal from the ecu tells it to reverse? I'm so exited to have a vnt for spoolup as the effective AR is really low from idle so major spool improvement over the wastegate..

I have a good turbo off of a 642 if you're still looking at options...
08-06-2018, 09:40 PM
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Petar Offline
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#15
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
(07-24-2018, 07:30 PM)50harleyrider Wrote: I bought a GTA2359VK off a 2005 OM648. Baldur and I are contemplating how to control the electronic actuator with his DSL1
...

This might be helpfull:

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...hp?tid=614
08-07-2018, 01:56 AM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#16
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
I went ahead and converted to a vacuum actuator. Thanks for all the input but I really need help on oil lines now. Surely someone has gone through this when saying bye bye to the K14.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018, 06:05 PM by 50harleyrider.)
08-07-2018, 06:04 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#17
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
not sure on the return side but the feed should be easy to adapt. a banjo fitting from the filter to an AN line then just adapt the line to the inlet at the turbo side. if its a threaded fitting get an adapter if its a bolt on flange just braze a steel AN fitting on to it. i run a 48" AN4 from the 14mm banjo at my filter to the M12 inlet fitting with an in line restrictor orifice to drop the oil pressure and a AN4 to M12 fitting.
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
08-08-2018, 12:00 AM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#18
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
The oe supply line attaches to the right side of the block not the filter.
08-08-2018, 06:29 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#19
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
the block side fitting is a M16x1.5 bubble flare you could just cut the pipe an inch or so outside the fitting and weld an AN fitting on or have a local shop do it. im not sure exactly what the oil feed side of the turbo is but you should be able to adapt it to AN. then you wont have to worry about the length or positioning of the original feed line.

something like this for the block side 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4AN-AN4-AN-4-AN...itleDesc=0
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
08-08-2018, 09:20 AM
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Mr.Emo Offline
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#20
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
Check out oleelstad on Instagram. I just did the conversion and took some pictures of it. Smile
08-08-2018, 01:27 PM
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MTUPower Offline
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#21
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
(08-07-2018, 06:04 PM)50harleyrider Wrote: I went ahead and converted to a vacuum actuator. Thanks for all the input but I really need help on oil lines now. Surely someone has gone through this when saying bye bye to the K14.

Pics and notes from your vacuum actuator for the group please
2005 CDI with removable Kleeman tuning box /// 1984 300TD - Myna pump/ A-A intercooler/ enlarged PC's/ stock Garrett boost to 20psi/ W126 II front brakes/ Vogtland springs/ EGT +Boost gauges/  H4 Hella's
08-13-2018, 11:54 AM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#22
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
Pics aren't necessary. I got an actuator and thumb nut for a GT2052V off Ebay. They are here
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Wastegate...2749.l2649
I did have to cut the electronic actuator mount off the compressor housing to get the vacuum actuator to fit and mount. I also added an adjustable vane stop to the boss that was on the GTA 2359VK. I am adding an EGT probe and exhaust manifold pressure 6 bar sensor per Baldurs advice. I won't post up on this any more until it's installed and Baldur and I get the DSL1 to control it.
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2018, 02:08 PM by 50harleyrider.)
08-15-2018, 01:59 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#23
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
Hey- that looks just like my VW TDI VNT actuator! I presume you'll be using the N75 vacuum modulating solenoid and Baldur will just provide a PWM signal to the N75?


I've been looking into this since we chatted about it. It seems the Turbo off the OM613 is similar to the one off the OM648- just vacuum controlled instead of electronic controlled. These seem available reasonably priced used from Europe. Has anyone been able to get a compressor map on these (gt2359v) units?


Any idea why you'd need a 6 bar MAP? Does anyone know that the stock OM606 MAP is rated for?
08-15-2018, 02:31 PM
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Petar Offline
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#24
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
(08-15-2018, 02:31 PM)jav1 Wrote: .... It seems the Turbo off the OM613 is similar to the one off the OM648- just vacuum controlled instead of electronic controlled....

It should be exactly the save beside the actuator. But someone with more hands on knowledge should confirm
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2018, 02:36 PM by Petar.)
08-15-2018, 02:36 PM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#25
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
the 6bar MAP sensor is for back pressure. Since We are starting from scratch on the vacuum regulator and I had to add a stop. I don't have any vane setting for the stop or a flow bench, so we will be initially monitoring back pressure closely so not to grenade anything. Huh I did get the turbo mounted today along with egt probe and pressure sensor fitting. The OM606 exhaust manifold is really hard. I couldn't even get a carbide bit to work so I had to drill the turbine housing just past the inlet to get my fittings in.
(08-15-2018, 02:31 PM)jav1 Wrote: Hey- that looks just like my VW TDI VNT actuator!   I presume you'll be using the N75 vacuum modulating solenoid and Baldur will just provide a PWM signal to the N75?


I've been looking into this since we chatted about it.  It seems the Turbo off the OM613 is similar to the one off the OM648- just vacuum controlled instead of electronic controlled.  These seem available reasonably priced used from Europe.  Has anyone been able to get a compressor map on these (gt2359v) units?


Any idea why you'd need a 6 bar MAP?  Does anyone know that the stock OM606 MAP is rated for?
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2018, 02:49 PM by 50harleyrider.)
08-16-2018, 02:43 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#26
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
That's surprising on the manifold.  I'm following this:    https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/white-l...338/page-2.   Lots of good info and it seems he got the probe in the manifold.


On the VNT- are you using an N75 valve for the vacuum control?  I presume what your referring to as the stop is just the free length on the actuator arm?  That's how the TDI is setup and if memory serves, the extended position set the vanes as closed as they should go without constricting the exhaust enough to effect idle.  The actuator then opens the vanes as requested boost levels are approached to prevent an over-boost and to limit boost when loads are not present.


I presume baldur will have to setup another PID strategy for VNT control? Or are you guys trying to control Boost as it relates to exhaust back pressure as well?
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2018, 03:55 PM by jav1.)
08-16-2018, 03:54 PM
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baldur Offline
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#27
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
(08-16-2018, 03:54 PM)jav1 Wrote: That's surprising on the manifold.  I'm following this:    https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/white-l...338/page-2.   Lots of good info and it seems he got the probe in the manifold.


On the VNT- are you using an N75 valve for the vacuum control?  I presume what your referring to as the stop is just the free length on the actuator arm?  That's how the TDI is setup and if memory serves, the extended position set the vanes as closed as they should go without constricting the exhaust enough to effect idle.  The actuator then opens the vanes as requested boost levels are approached to prevent an over-boost and to limit boost when loads are not present.


I presume baldur will have to setup another PID strategy for VNT control? Or are you guys trying to control Boost as it relates to exhaust back pressure as well?

We will start out with using the exhaust back pressure only as a reference for tuning the vane position. I have added a map to the boost control that lets one specify the control range of the boost control as a function of engine speed and boost level. This will prevent the vanes from going full closed on transients at high engine speeds, preventing them from restricting air flow too much on the spool up, but the control loop will target boost pressure and not exhaust back pressure.
Baldur Gislason

08-16-2018, 05:16 PM
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barrote Offline
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#28
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
It works best by targuetting boost... unless u need(out of) fuel. EGP can be controlled by a WG on the EGR port.
Nothing works best...
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Yesterday, 12:09 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#29
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
Barrote-

I think it's pretty smart that they will monitor EGP in conjunction with a VNT style turbo. I would bet there will be no need to dump exhaust thru the EGR port (to control EGP) since in all the literature I've read, one of benefits of VNT is the ability drive EGR flow... which suggests it can also NOT drive that flow by keeping EGP at equilibrium (or below) that of intake pressures?
Yesterday, 12:56 PM
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50harleyrider Offline
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#30
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
All the tuned TDI's I've had in the past were fine with EGR delete and VNT turbos. All I monitored was EGT but again the VNT's I used were all preset on the max vane closure by Garrett with the factory stop. not so lucky here but in the long run will probably make a great match with egr delete thanks to Baldur.
9 hours ago
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jav1 Offline
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#31
RE: good VNT upgrade for a K14
I think you guys are on the right track... so much so that I bought one today (om648) and will need to go the same route (delete the electronic control and install vacuum actuator)
6 hours ago
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