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OM603 w/ Myna 7.0mm - Project
crodgers Offline
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#1
Photo  OM603 w/ Myna 7.0mm - Project
Hey guys,

Wanted to get your opinion on an issue I'm trying to sort on an OM603 motor running a Myna pump with 7.5mm elements. 

I've been planning to do a superturbo for a year or two now, and had a 87' 300td manual swap done and ready for parts when I stumbled upon a project 300TE that was for sale on the east coast. The TE had a swapped in om603 (#22 head) with the pump mentioned above, and an HE341VE. I purchased the vehicle for parts with the intent of swapping them over to my TD. The PO had lost interest in the project and had also moved out of town. Super nice fellow though. The car has since sat for 6 years, and was not running when last touched. PO described difficulty starting and suggested that either the timing was off, or the engine had low compression. 

So I've done the following since purchase. 

1.) Compression Test: [300psi cyl1, 340psi cyl2, 320psi cyl3, 440psi cyl4, 440psi cyl5, 420 cyl6] - readings with glow plugs out, and after adding oil to each cylinder. The readings show a differential of over 5bar from front to back. Which from what I've read is problematic. Given that the engine sat outside, fluids in it, for 6 years. I'm thinking stuck rings could be contributing to the spread. (Best case scenario)

2.) Checked Pump Timing: Removed pump, installed locking tool, rotated engine clockwise to 20btdc. I've read a few posts on here that suggest that is the correct timing for Myna built pumps. Though it is age dependent depending on whether they have the old or new cam. I don't know which it is. 

3.) Verified fuel at injectors: Reinstalled pump, disconnected tank, routed supply/return lines to a bottle of diesel, and installed new filter. Cranked the motor without plugs until fuel spurted from each injector with the lines cracked. Tightened lines and verified fuel vapor coming from glow plug holes during cranking. Reinstalled glow plugs/harness. 

Engine Start:

The engine catches quickly but idles extremely roughly. White smoke all over the place and hard nailing. I need to throttle it to keep it running, but it didn't clear up much and was nailing horribly. I assumed the smoke resulted from the car having sat so long, potentially stuck rings, etc, and overlooked it. I addressed the nailing by retarding the timing in case it was too advanced. I adjusted it with the screw, retarding it about 4 degrees. There was no noticeable improvement. 


So that where I'm at. Before I run the engine any longer, I need to make sure the block is full of coolant to make sure there aren't any air pockets could caused hot spots. I've filled it, but the water pump pump pulley isn't hooked up to burp the system. 
So my questions to you guys are should I keep going and hope it clears up? Do you know if I'm in the "ballpark" with my timing settings? Any other suggestions for the cause of the rough running? Obviously the engine is sketchy, I don't have the history on it. The cylinder compression spread isn't good.

There doesn't seem to be much information out there on the Myna pumps. A few other posts mentioned a stamp being placed on the Myna pumps that indicate timing, element size, etc. The only thing I could make out on mine were some yellow numbers "70 - 3" and " 03 11". I've attached a photo of the pump below. Anybody know what they mean? 

Thank you!

-Cody
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2019, 01:20 PM by crodgers.)
04-10-2018, 11:11 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#2
Video  RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Update:

Got the engine running pretty smoothly the other night. Ended up advancing the timing about 5 degrees, which put it back to around 20 degrees. my guess is that I just had the timing too retarded and there was still air in the system that needed to work out. Took about 30min of running for it to smooth out completely.

New question, anybody know whats happening at cylinder 2 when I rev it? It looks like combustion gasses are getting around the intake valve, or that its backfiring. Freaked me out lol




-Cody
04-15-2018, 09:16 AM
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NZScott Offline
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#3
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Carbon stuck on the valve seat. People have that trouble with 60x engine here all the time, never experienced it myself on my 617s.

I can't read all of your first post but looks like you got it sussed

1978 300D, 373,000km
OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (awaiting certification to be legal...)

1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km 'new' DD





04-15-2018, 04:01 PM
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barrote Offline
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#4
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Valve ... tappet problem... run it high idle it should dissapear
FD,
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04-17-2018, 02:32 AM
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barrote Offline
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#5
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Valve ... tappet problem... run it high idle it should dissapear
FD,
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04-17-2018, 03:01 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#6
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Got it,

Thanks for the info guys. And yeah, I tried to add those photo's as an attachment rather than inserting them into the post but they still displayed huge. I'll just delete them.

Thanks again
04-17-2018, 02:05 PM
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crodgers Offline
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#7
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Reviving an old thread. I had stopped work on this in order to get another td back together and sold. I resumed work on this about a month ago and I'm still trying to sort out some running issues.

To catch you all up, I've completed the the coolant plumbing for the VGT turbo, Installed a 5spd manual gearbox (twice..sigh. stupid long story), and pieced back together the intake end of things. The fuel tank is a mess. I drained about 12 gallons of varnish from it. Circa 2011 fuel. There's all sorts of sludge built up to the point where it wont take any new fuel, and just burps it back out. Guessing it's airlocked. I'll try muriatic acid to to clear it up in the short term unless you guys have other recommendations.

Back to the motor, it's still running off of it's snapple-tea sippy cup due to the fuel tank issue. But I'm back to being unable to get the darn thing to start. I haven't touched the timing since last spring. It's still at 20 degrees BTDC per the Myna specs. I confirmed the IP tang is centered at 20*BTDC so I shouldn't be 180* off. Lastly I pulled the valve cover last night to ensure the cam timing is correct. It's about 2 degrees advanced of TDC. Assuming no big deal there. I've cracked the injector lines, they're getting fuel. Glow plug relay works, and I confirmed power at the plugs.

So to the best of my knowledge the engine is timed per spec, getting fuel, getting air, and has compression. Why the fak won't it start? lol. It's on the edge of catching, but I'm just getting white smoke.

Any and all guidance here is much appreciated! I'm missing something!
02-20-2019, 12:09 PM
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crodgers Offline
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#8
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
A little more context to this and another potential symptom you guys might be able to shed some light on:
Prior to swapping the transmission I had the motor running reasonably well. It still generated alot of white smoke, and had some occasional stumbles in the idle but I attributed that to the late timing I had set the pump too.

I just recently finished the 5spd (717.410) swap with a new new flywheel, clutch (9"), and pp. The master and slave cylinders are bled, and the pedal feels nice a firm all the way through its travel. I've confirmed by rolling the vehicle both in and out of gear that the clutch engages and (at least partially) disengages.

Now currently, per my previous post, I cannot get the engine to start. While trying I've become increasingly aware that the motor seems to be struggling to turn over. Almost as if there is extra resistance or the battery is dead. When I was checking the timing, I had to use a pipe at the end of the socket wrench to turn the motor. Maybe I'm being paranoid but if I remember right, I used to be able to hand turn it with just a wrench.

Could something in the transmission be adding a load to the motor and bog the the starter motor down? Thinking this through, worst case is that the clutch isn't fully disengaged, all that would do is drag the input shaft along with the rotating assembly (engine crank) during starting. Yes that's more load, but it really shouldn't be all that much if the trans is in neutral.

I've cleaned the grounds and had the battery tested despite being brand new.  All checked out fine. Bad starter motor maybe?

I'm overlooking something lol
02-21-2019, 09:15 AM
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jav1 Offline
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#9
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
My .02c. With the tranny swap you had to change the flywheel yes? There could be something in the assembly causing undue drag and it may not be in the tranny. Could be an alignment issue, something could be rubbing, perhaps the starter gear doesn't have any clearance to the flywheel gear?

There should be some resistance to turning over the engine due to compression but that resistance shouldn't be constant. Can you remove the glow plugs and see how easily it turns over?

A bad starter motor can also make for slow cranking but if was working fine before the tranny swap, I would suspect other things first.
02-21-2019, 10:48 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#10
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(02-21-2019, 10:48 AM)jav1 Wrote: My .02c.  With the tranny swap you had to change the flywheel yes?  There could be something in the assembly causing undue drag and it may not be in the tranny.  Could be an alignment issue, something could be rubbing, perhaps the starter gear doesn't have any clearance to the flywheel gear?

There should be some resistance to turning over the engine due to compression but that resistance shouldn't be constant.  Can you remove the glow plugs and see how easily it turns over?

A bad starter motor can also make for slow cranking but if was working fine before the tranny swap, I would suspect other things first.

Jav,

Thanks for the input! Yes I did install a new flywheel after removing the old torque converter flexplate. The bolt-up was uneventful and everything seemed to clear ok. I didn't think about behind the flywheel though. And whether there could be interference occurring between the flywheel and the block, specially after torquing down the flywheel bolts. I'll check that clearance out. I think I should be able to snake a scope up there through that window in lower portion of the bellhousing/oil pan. I did a quick glance over comparing the original flywheel that came with the 5spd compared to the new one before I installed it. The two seemed pretty much the same, but I didn't actually measure the overall diameters and compare them. 

I'm thinking I might also crack the starter bolts loose in case there is a starter alignment issue. There's no grinding or signs of metal flaking that I can see through the CPS hole, but if that ring gear is a slightly larger diameter than the old one, then I'm sure that could cause binding or a lateral load on the starter. I'm not sure if there's any room for play in the bolt holes or the starter flange. I'm pretty sure there isn't. But I figure the starter will use it if I leave the bolts a hair loose. 

Your point about glowplugs is my next test for tonight. A friend of mine suggested that as well. I'll pop those out and see how the hand rotation feels in terms of resistance.
02-21-2019, 12:43 PM
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jav1 Offline
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#11
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Also-

On start up- I've had issues with my install and I'm pretty sure my issue was air in the fuel supply/return lines. I Know you said you were having some fuel issues and were running with a temporary source. Make sure there are no air leaks anywhere that could lead to the injection pump sucking in an air pocket.
02-21-2019, 01:28 PM
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crodgers Offline
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#12
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Will do. Do these pumps purge air very well if they get a pocket in the fuel "gallery"? I need to read up on these things to better understand how they work, intent of the banjo check valve, etc.

Thanks again I'll circle back.
02-21-2019, 03:47 PM
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Petar Offline
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#13
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
They seem to self-bleed very well, I only manually bleed when removing the injector lines, otherwise I prime it with the hand pump, crank it and it runs. It may fun rough for a while but it fixes itself after a while
02-22-2019, 05:46 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#14
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
An update to this. I removed the transmission this past weekend and found that the sleeve that the throwout bearing slides along was interfering with the clutch disk. The fit-up was close enough that everything seemed to go together fine. But I think after snugging up the bellhousing bolts, that sleeve was pressed up against the clutch plate.

The reason for this is that the new flywheel wear surface is substantially thicker than the the old one. And causes the whole clutch and pressure plate assembly to sit back further towards the transmission. I bought the car with a bunch of parts including the manual tranmission swap kit. I lazily assumed everything was sourced as "bolt-up". In fairness to the previous owner, he did an incredible job sourcing this stuff. I feel like a kid in a toy store evertime I go through the boxes of stuff that came with it.  Nevertheless I should have paid more attention to the flywheel depth, despite it being damn close to the old one.

There's a shop up the street that can turn down the flywheel but of course they were closed on Saturday. So you're not going to like what it did next, but I opted to shorten that sleeve by 6mm with a die grinder and cutoff disc. I bolted everything back up and the car fired right up! So I'm guessing that interference was creating a large enough braking load to stall the engine and prevent it from starting. My ultimate plan is to install a 6spd 716.668. Since everything I've read on this 717.410 says it's not going to last. especially with the larger clutch/flywheel. My goal right now is to just get the car moving under it's own power with that 717.410. Even if it means hacking at that trans :/
   
   

The problem wasn't resolved there though. I'm getting a substantial amount of clutch slip i.e. the clutch isn't fully engaging. Which you guys probably all saw coming lol. Not me lol. Out comes the transmission again. I'm hoping I may get lucky and be able to play around with a different clutch fork/ throw out bearing to gain some clearance. The fact that I can still move the car around and up inclines causes me to think it just needs a few more mm of clearance.  (I'll get a straight edge on it once the trans is out to verify how much additional space I need. Worst case I'll see if I can get the flywheel turned down a few mm.  I'll circle back when thats done.

Thanks for the input so far!
02-25-2019, 03:30 PM
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barrote Offline
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#15
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Hum... it slips... snd u suspect the fork throw out bearing is rubbing the clutch?
Very hardlly.... probably is something else ...
Forks differ only in 2 way ... dmf clutch pack or single... that might be the problem. But the actuator is diff in them too.
Take a carefull look... probably the problem is in the actuation set or the clutch pack...
Usually single clutch trans besides rubing the sleeve once u use a DMF can 't reach the pilot bearing ...
FD,
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02-26-2019, 04:32 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#16
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(02-26-2019, 04:32 AM)barrote Wrote: Hum... it slips... snd u suspect the fork throw out bearing is rubbing the clutch?
Very hardlly.... probably is something else ...

Thanks for the input Barrote! You always have great info on this board. 
I don't think that the bearing is rubbing the clutch, I think that the bearing is pressed up too tightly against the pressure plate. And that the thicker flywheel is causing the pressure plate to sit further back towards that bearing. If that is the case, the clutch would never be fully engaged and slip. Maybe I'm thinking about that incorrectly. 

Quote:Forks differ only in 2 way ... dmf clutch pack or single... that might be the problem. But the actuator is diff in them too.
Take a carefull look... probably the problem is in the actuation set or the clutch pack... 
Usually single clutch trans besides rubing the sleeve once u use a DMF can 't reach the pilot bearing ...

By actuation do you mean the slave cylinder actuation? The thought also occurred to me that maybe the rod on the slave cylinder just needs to be shortened to allow the fork to travel further back. I should mention that the clutch pedal has constant resistance in it. Feels kind of nice actually, but shouldn't you be able to feel the clutch disengage while the pedal is pushed in? I.e. the pedal should start soft, then firm up as the bearing contacts the pressure plate?
02-26-2019, 08:29 AM
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barrote Offline
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#17
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Yes , u must be able to fell the throw out bearing contact the clutch plate.
First of all, u have to figure out wich GB u have! .410 if my knowlegde is ok is a SMF input shaft. The shaft goes all way inside the crank and the pilot bearing is in the crank.
.411 is the same type of box but with DMF imput shaft. In this case the pilot bearing is logged in the stationary part of the DMF. The clutch plate plane is closer to engine GB contact plane in the single mass and therefhore the fork and slave cylinder are longuer than in the DMF type.
If u are using other FW than MB u have to watch out contact plane distance . Same happens for disk thickness... if disk is too thick or too narrow u may have locking problems.
FD,
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02-26-2019, 11:08 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#18
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
To clarify, I have a 717.410 transmission, and yes it’s setup for an SMF. My flywheel is an A111 030 39 05 (SMF). After searching the EPC I believe it was intended for an early r170 or late w202 with the M111 engine. There isn’t much info on it. 
 
I pulled the transmission again last night and took some more measurements.
  • Engine: From the bellhousing mating surface to the end off the pressure plate I measured 74mm. This means the flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate assembly protrude into the transmission bellhousing 74mm
  • Transmission: From the bellhousing mating surface to the throw-out bearing I measured 68mm. This measurement was taken with the bearing/fork pushed all the way back (slave cylinder fully retracted).
 
So from the measurements above I have 6mm of interference at the pressure plate and throw-out bearing. I believe what’s happening is the pressure plate is being forced in by 6mm preventing the clutch from fully engaging. I can get another 5mm of extra clearance by shortening the slave cylinder rod, but that’s it. The original shift fork/bearing is thicker, and would reduce the clearance more if installed. The simplest solution is to have the flywheel machined down 6-8mm in order to make some decent room in there for everything.
 
For the time being, I think I’m just going to install the original flywheel, clutch, and pp that came with the trans so that I can lightly drive the car around, test VNT controller, etc. In the meantime I’ll keep looking for a c230 partout to get a 6spd and order the smf sprinter f/w kit.
 
Anybody know when the production break-point of the m111 in the c230’s was? I’ve located a 2003 c230 coupe for sale, but keep finding conflicting info on whether it has the M111 or the M172. If only it were a 2002 I’d be in the clear lol.
02-27-2019, 09:44 AM
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barrote Offline
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#19
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Haha. So now i know what problem u have hehe.
It is the throw out bearing that is not suited for your needs. They differ too. But i thought u had all parts for SMF.
Anyhow, a clutch system from a M111 does not suit at all a diesel. That is ghe reason why uf slips and not cause of being a litle forced cause that is normal... they all press a litle.
The only MB clutch that holds are from OM605 TD, M103, OM612. This beeing said the 605td and m104 are same DMF.
The 612 u have from sprinters is also DMF.
If u find a w124 with M103 engine in there u have a suitable clutch wich only need to be machined to accept a 240mm disk and a .430 gearbox, wich is the stronguest of all 717.
If not search 6speed 716 and sprinter clutch. Be aware 716 from c230 is not a good box is no good than a .410
FD,
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02-28-2019, 04:34 AM
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#20
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(02-27-2019, 09:44 AM)crodgers Wrote: To clarify, I have a 717.410 transmission, and yes it’s setup for an SMF. My flywheel is an A111 030 39 05 (SMF). After searching the EPC I believe it was intended for an early r170 or late w202 with the M111 engine. There isn’t much info on it. 
 
I pulled the transmission again last night and took some more measurements.
  • Engine: From the bellhousing mating surface to the end off the pressure plate I measured 74mm. This means the flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate assembly protrude into the transmission bellhousing 74mm
  • Transmission: From the bellhousing mating surface to the throw-out bearing I measured 68mm. This measurement was taken with the bearing/fork pushed all the way back (slave cylinder fully retracted).
 
So from the measurements above I have 6mm of interference at the pressure plate and throw-out bearing. I believe what’s happening is the pressure plate is being forced in by 6mm preventing the clutch from fully engaging. I can get another 5mm of extra clearance by shortening the slave cylinder rod, but that’s it. The original shift fork/bearing is thicker, and would reduce the clearance more if installed. The simplest solution is to have the flywheel machined down 6-8mm in order to make some decent room in there for everything.
 
For the time being, I think I’m just going to install the original flywheel, clutch, and pp that came with the trans so that I can lightly drive the car around, test VNT controller, etc. In the meantime I’ll keep looking for a c230 partout to get a 6spd and order the smf sprinter f/w kit.
 
Anybody know when the production break-point of the m111 in the c230’s was? I’ve located a 2003 c230 coupe for sale, but keep finding conflicting info on whether it has the M111 or the M172. If only it were a 2002 I’d be in the clear lol.
In the US we find the MY2002 C230K with 716.648 behind the M111Komp in the coupe (203.747) 240mm also.
Many of these are going into the junk yard and with 6 speed, look at LKQ =$126
The 2003 MY are M271 are weaker 716.62 and have wrong bell shape for inline diesel
We are running the 716.648 trans with VW 12V VR6T in W203 Coupe with good results
VR6 PP is weakest link so far no problem with the trans with 400WHP and hard launch with 26x10 et drag.
pretty shure that the 716.668 is highest input rating but only found behind M112 3.2L also in crossfire but the bell shape is wrong for inline motors. Also clutch parts for the DC stuff costs less if you look close.
I would not hesitate to try the 716.648 behind a lightly modded street driven 606.962 with 300-400ft. lbs so long as the car is not too heavy.
In fact we will do this in a W203 coupe very soon.
02-28-2019, 02:20 PM
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#21
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Quote:Haha. So now i know what problem u have hehe. 
It is the throw out bearing that is not suited for your needs. They differ too. But i thought u had all parts for SMF.
Anyhow, a clutch system from a M111 does not suit at all a diesel. That is ghe reason why uf slips and not cause of being a litle forced cause that is normal... they all press a litle.
The only MB clutch that holds are from OM605 TD, M103, OM612. This beeing said the 605td and m104 are same DMF.
The 612 u have from sprinters is also DMF.
If u find a w124 with M103 engine in there u have a suitable clutch wich only need to be machined to accept a 240mm disk and a .430 gearbox, wich is the stronguest of all 717.
If not search 6speed 716 and sprinter clutch. Be aware 716 from c230 is not a good box is no good than a .410

So it sounds like I need a stiffer pressure plate (More clamping force), if I'm understanding that correctly? The m103 and m104 manual cars are very difficult to come by here in the states. I believe the most readily available solution in my situation is to get a 716.668 and the sprinter clutch/ SMF. Though junkyarddawg had an interesting comment above about his flywheel/pp setup:

Quote:In the US we find the MY2002 C230K with 716.648 behind the M111Komp in the coupe (203.747) 240mm also.
Many of these are going into the junk yard and with 6 speed, look at LKQ =$126
The 2003 MY are M271 are weaker 716.62 and have wrong bell shape for inline diesel
We are running the 716.648 trans with VW 12V VR6T in W203 Coupe with good results
VR6 PP is weakest link so far no problem with the trans with 400WHP and hard launch with 26x10 et drag.
pretty shure that the 716.668 is highest input rating but only found behind M112 3.2L also in crossfire but the bell shape is wrong for inline motors. Also clutch parts for the DC stuff costs less if you look close.
I would not hesitate to try the 716.648 behind a lightly modded street driven 606.962 with 300-400ft. lbs so long as the car is not too heavy.
In fact we will do this in a W203 coupe very soon.

That's what I'm on the hunt for. Those transmissions are readily available here, but I can't seem to find the linkage assembly for it lol. All the junkyards that I've called have cut through the linkages and scrapped them with the car. I'm looking at a Chrysler Crossfire linkages now. They had the m271, but I think the linkage should be the same since the crossfire is essentially an SLK. Still $250 for a crossfire linkage and shift assembly though.
Can you give me some more specs on your setup? Sounds cool! (i.e. the year range your VW VR6 motor is from, vw pp/clutch?, etc) I may go that route with the clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate if the parts or more accessible here in the states. Otherwise I'll just get the sprinter setup from the UK. 

Thanks for you input thus far guys
03-04-2019, 04:38 PM
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#22
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(03-04-2019, 04:38 PM)crodgers Wrote:
Quote:Haha. So now i know what problem u have hehe. 
It is the throw out bearing that is not suited for your needs. They differ too. But i thought u had all parts for SMF.
Anyhow, a clutch system from a M111 does not suit at all a diesel. That is ghe reason why uf slips and not cause of being a litle forced cause that is normal... they all press a litle.
The only MB clutch that holds are from OM605 TD, M103, OM612. This beeing said the 605td and m104 are same DMF.
The 612 u have from sprinters is also DMF.
If u find a w124 with M103 engine in there u have a suitable clutch wich only need to be machined to accept a 240mm disk and a .430 gearbox, wich is the stronguest of all 717.
If not search 6speed 716 and sprinter clutch. Be aware 716 from c230 is not a good box is no good than a .410

So it sounds like I need a stiffer pressure plate (More clamping force), if I'm understanding that correctly? The m103 and m104 manual cars are very difficult to come by here in the states. I believe the most readily available solution in my situation is to get a 716.668 and the sprinter clutch/ SMF. Though junkyarddawg had an interesting comment above about his flywheel/pp setup:

Quote:In the US we find the MY2002 C230K with 716.648 behind the M111Komp in the coupe (203.747) 240mm also.
Many of these are going into the junk yard and with 6 speed, look at LKQ =$126
The 2003 MY are M271 are weaker 716.62 and have wrong bell shape for inline diesel
We are running the 716.648 trans with VW 12V VR6T in W203 Coupe with good results
VR6 PP is weakest link so far no problem with the trans with 400WHP and hard launch with 26x10 et drag.
pretty shure that the 716.668 is highest input rating but only found behind M112 3.2L also in crossfire but the bell shape is wrong for inline motors. Also clutch parts for the DC stuff costs less if you look close.
I would not hesitate to try the 716.648 behind a lightly modded street driven 606.962 with 300-400ft. lbs so long as the car is not too heavy.
In fact we will do this in a W203 coupe very soon.

That's what I'm on the hunt for. Those transmissions are readily available here, but I can't seem to find the linkage assembly for it lol. All the junkyards that I've called have cut through the linkages and scrapped them with the car. I'm looking at a Chrysler Crossfire linkages now. They had the m271, but I think the linkage should be the same since the crossfire is essentially an SLK. Still $250 for a crossfire linkage and shift assembly though.
Can you give me some more specs on your setup? Sounds cool! (i.e. the year range your VW VR6 motor is from, vw pp/clutch?, etc) I may go that route with the clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate if the parts or more accessible here in the states. Otherwise I'll just get the sprinter setup from the UK. 

Thanks for you input thus far guys
The clutch we are using is actually for a 24V VR6 but we are running it behind a 12V VR6 with the 716.648 trans and adapter plate.
Because the VR6 is not a diesel we wont clutter this thread with details but you can look here for build https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p...cedes-benz
you wont be able to use the vw clutch with the mb diesel setup but the transmission will hold for you. I thought about using the dual mass flywheel, clutch and pressure plate from the M111K motor onto the OM606 with 716.648 but can not confirm that it works. Sounds like the sprinter setup is tried and true. Search for a LKQ junkyard near you and setup an alert for the vehicles you are interested in pulling parts from. They will send you an email when the cars go into the yard and you can look at the interior photos to see if any have manual trans. I think there is enough information on STD that a decent sticky could be made for the MB 6 speed transmissions and proven clutch combos. Maybe it should get started?
03-06-2019, 08:36 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#23
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(03-06-2019, 08:36 AM)junkyarddawg Wrote: The clutch we are using is actually for a 24V VR6 but we are running it behind a 12V VR6 with the 716.648 trans and adapter plate.

Because the VR6 is not a diesel we wont clutter this thread with details but you can look here for build https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p...cedes-benz
you wont be able to use the vw clutch with the mb diesel setup but the transmission will hold for you. I thought about using the dual mass flywheel, clutch and pressure plate from the M111K motor onto the OM606 with 716.648 but can not confirm that it works. Sounds like the sprinter setup is tried and true. Search for a LKQ junkyard near you and setup an alert for the vehicles you are interested in pulling parts from. They will send you an email when the cars go into the yard and you can look at the interior photos to see if any have manual trans. I think there is enough information on STD that a decent sticky could be made for the MB 6 speed transmissions and proven clutch combos. Maybe it should get started?

Got it. Thanks again for the info. I have the alerts setup, so it's just a matter of time. There's a c230 lead down in Louisville that I may go for. A little more than I'm looking to spend for a manual setup, but it'll provide everything I need short of the driveshaft since it's a full donor car. If I get the car, I'll definitely install the DMF temporarily and report back on how it holds up (or doesn't lol). From what I've read the DMF bolts up fine, it just doesn't last longdue to poor heat dissipation. Or so the theory goes. At the very least it'll buy me some time to order the SMF kit. 

And yes there's a plethora of 6spd info on here, but it does seem to be a bit fragmented. A sticky would certainly be useful to consolidate that information. Happy to report back with my findings once the swap is done. I could then pull together the info from other threads, plus whatever else other folks want to add.
03-07-2019, 10:07 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#24
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
That link/project is awesome by the way. I need to sit down and really read through it. I'm at the office, so I can't play the youtube links. But hopefully there's some lovely VR6 noise in there.
03-07-2019, 10:26 AM
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#25
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Quote: In the US we find the MY2002 C230K with 716.648 behind the M111Komp in the coupe (203.747) 240mm also.

Many of these are going into the junk yard and with 6 speed, look at LKQ =$126
The 2003 MY are M271 are weaker 716.62 and have wrong bell shape for inline diesel

I read multiple places that the M271 6 speeds were not the correct bellhousing pattern, but then I pulled one last week because it sure looked right.  I don't know if there was a cutoff point, but I can vouch for the car I saw.  VIN WDBRN40J83A433460, built 8/02. It is the weaker model as you say though (716.628 R 203 261 05 01)
03-10-2019, 04:58 PM
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#26
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(03-10-2019, 04:58 PM)serious_lee Wrote:
Quote: In the US we find the MY2002 C230K with 716.648 behind the M111Komp in the coupe (203.747) 240mm also.

Many of these are going into the junk yard and with 6 speed, look at LKQ =$126
The 2003 MY are M271 are weaker 716.62 and have wrong bell shape for inline diesel

I read multiple places that the M271 6 speeds were not the correct bellhousing pattern, but then I pulled one last week because it sure looked right.  I don't know if there was a cutoff point, but I can vouch for the car I saw.  VIN WDBRN40J83A433460, built 8/02. It is the weaker model as you say though (716.628 R 203 261 05 01)

Serious_Lee, I think the trans you pulled should technically work with some modification of the trans mount. Here's why I think you'll need to modify the mount. I have a friends 716.624 on the bench right now actually. It's out of a 2003 C230 with the M271 motor. The bolt pattern is the same, HOWEVER, the pattern is rotated about 10-15 degrees counterclockwise. I've included a photo that shows the 716.624 on the left, and a 717.410 on the right. I've measured the spacing between bolt holes and they all match between transmissions, except that pattern is rotated on the 716.624. 
I think this is because the M111 (2002 c230) and OM60x engines were mounted at an angle to increase the headroom in the engine bay. The M271 as best I can tell from online photos is mounted straight and not rotated so they adjusted the bolt pattern accordingly on the trans. 

   

So if you bolt your trans up to an om60x engine, the trans would be rotated and its mount wont be parallel with the crossmember. If you fab up a plate to make up for the difference at the mount everything else I think would work. Though filling the trans with oil will be more difficult since it's tilted, and long term oil circulation could suffer.
03-11-2019, 08:33 AM
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crodgers Offline
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#27
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
So an update on the car. It drives! As a last ditch effort to get the clearance I needed with the flywheel setup on the 717.410 I shortened the ball pivot by 10mm, and the slave cylinder rod by 5mm. This gave me the 74mm of clearance I needed for the pressure plate. I bolted everything up for the 4th time lol and it works! Took the car for it’s first test drive in 1.5 years! The clutch engagement is nice and firm. I don’t expect it to hold up for very long once the turbo is going, but this at least temporarily will get the car moving for testing and it sure beats pushing the car around lol.

So here’s the bad part. In my excitement of the clutch finally working. I rushed the intake and intercooler back together and accidentally kinked the throttle cable. When I started the engine, it immediately took off and redlined until I could get to the pump’s shutoff lever. A a good 3-5 seconds of redlining. Scared the hell out of me. Now I have some significant blowby at the oil cap and pcv breather ☹. I think I'll re-title this thread "How not  to build a Superturbo". I did a compression test and found that cylinder 2 is still at 300psi, which is problematic. The others are 400psi plus. Thats roughly what I measured in my first post a year ago though. Technically an improvement for cylinder 1. 

Is it possible I blew some valve seals, or bent some valves? I don't have a leakdown tester unfortunately.
03-11-2019, 09:21 AM
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#28
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(03-11-2019, 08:33 AM)crodgers Wrote:
(03-10-2019, 04:58 PM)serious_lee Wrote:
Quote: In the US we find the MY2002 C230K with 716.648 behind the M111Komp in the coupe (203.747) 240mm also.

Many of these are going into the junk yard and with 6 speed, look at LKQ =$126
The 2003 MY are M271 are weaker 716.62 and have wrong bell shape for inline diesel

I read multiple places that the M271 6 speeds were not the correct bellhousing pattern, but then I pulled one last week because it sure looked right.  I don't know if there was a cutoff point, but I can vouch for the car I saw.  VIN WDBRN40J83A433460, built 8/02. It is the weaker model as you say though (716.628 R 203 261 05 01)

Serious_Lee, I think the trans you pulled should technically work with some modification of the trans mount. Here's why I think you'll need to modify the mount. I have a friends 716.624 on the bench right now actually. It's out of a 2003 C230 with the M271 motor. The bolt pattern is the same, HOWEVER, the pattern is rotated about 10-15 degrees counterclockwise. I've included a photo that shows the 716.624 on the left, and a 717.410 on the right. I've measured the spacing between bolt holes and they all match between transmissions, except that pattern is rotated on the 716.624. 
I think this is because the M111 (2002 c230) and OM60x engines were mounted at an angle to increase the headroom in the engine bay. The M271 as best I can tell from online photos is mounted straight and not rotated so they adjusted the bolt pattern accordingly on the trans. 



So if you bolt your trans up to an om60x engine, the trans would be rotated and its mount wont be parallel with the crossmember. If you fab up a plate to make up for the difference at the mount everything else I think would work. Though filling the trans with oil will be more difficult since it's tilted, and long term oil circulation could suffer.

I think you will have a problem with the shifter linkage if you put the trans from the M271 behind a 60X engine because the shifter bracket has to be parallel to the floor pan in order to get all the gears and achieve proper adjustment. Im not positive cause I haven't tried it but, suspect it would be a problem.
03-11-2019, 12:12 PM
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#29
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(03-11-2019, 09:21 AM)crodgers Wrote: So an update on the car. It drives! As a last ditch effort to get the clearance I needed with the flywheel setup on the 717.410 I shortened the ball pivot by 10mm, and the slave cylinder rod by 5mm. This gave me the 74mm of clearance I needed for the pressure plate. I bolted everything up for the 4th time lol and it works! Took the car for it’s first test drive in 1.5 years! The clutch engagement is nice and firm. I don’t expect it to hold up for very long once the turbo is going, but this at least temporarily will get the car moving for testing and it sure beats pushing the car around lol.

So here’s the bad part. In my excitement of the clutch finally working. I rushed the intake and intercooler back together and accidentally kinked the throttle cable. When I started the engine, it immediately took off and redlined until I could get to the pump’s shutoff lever. A a good 3-5 seconds of redlining. Scared the hell out of me. Now I have some significant blowby at the oil cap and pcv breather ☹. I think I'll re-title this thread "How not  to build a Superturbo". I did a compression test and found that cylinder 2 is still at 300psi, which is problematic. The others are 400psi plus. Thats roughly what I measured in my first post a year ago though. Technically an improvement for cylinder 1. 

Is it possible I blew some valve seals, or bent some valves? I don't have a leakdown tester unfortunately.
Ive seen this happen when carbon and crud break loose and get into the valve seats, usually clears up after a little driving under load as the engine digests the crap. I would take the main fuel filter off, dump it out or replace it, then fill it to the top with Dextron 3 automatic transmission fluid. Then restart the engine and drive it under load. This will clean the pump, injectors, pre chambers, pistons, etc...
Obviously this assumes you have no other outward indicators of bigger problems like engine knocking, lifter noise etc....
03-11-2019, 12:31 PM
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crodgers Offline
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#30
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
(03-11-2019, 12:31 PM)junkyarddawg Wrote: Ive seen this happen when carbon and crud break loose and get into the valve seats, usually clears up after a little driving under load as the engine digests the crap. I would take the main fuel filter off, dump it out or replace it, then fill it to the top with Dextron 3 automatic transmission fluid. Then restart the engine and drive it under load. This will clean the pump, injectors, pre chambers, pistons, etc...
Obviously this assumes you have no other outward indicators of bigger problems like engine knocking, lifter noise etc....

Well thats reassuring news. I don't have any discernible knocking or lifter tick. I do however have a large amount of blow-by at the oil cap and pcv breather. No bubbles in the coolant reservoir or signs of head gasket failure. Video attached



03-11-2019, 01:55 PM
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#31
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.0mm - Project
Thats too much for a half used engine... massive blowby is caused by leaking rings. Consequently i should not see a good compression test. Maybe rings are just stuck in the groove... there are aditives for that otherwise use water ingestion . Spray water and alcool in it.... it may recover, that does not happen cause of a 5 sec runway...
Good luck
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03-12-2019, 03:46 AM
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#32
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Quote:Serious_Lee, I think the trans you pulled should technically work with some modification of the trans mount. Here's why I think you'll need to modify the mount. I have a friends 716.624 on the bench right now actually. It's out of a 2003 C230 with the M271 motor. The bolt pattern is the same, HOWEVER, the pattern is rotated about 10-15 degrees counterclockwise. I've included a photo that shows the 716.624 on the left, and a 717.410 on the right. I've measured the spacing between bolt holes and they all match between transmissions, except that pattern is rotated on the 716.624. 
I think this is because the M111 (2002 c230) and OM60x engines were mounted at an angle to increase the headroom in the engine bay. The M271 as best I can tell from online photos is mounted straight and not rotated so they adjusted the bolt pattern accordingly on the trans. 



So if you bolt your trans up to an om60x engine, the trans would be rotated and its mount wont be parallel with the crossmember. If you fab up a plate to make up for the difference at the mount everything else I think would work. Though filling the trans with oil will be more difficult since it's tilted, and long term oil circulation could suffer.

Yes you're right about the angle.  I remember reading about some guy that used this trans on a w124 and he cut/welded the mount in a few spots.  It's also 7-10 cm too long to fit in the shifter hole.  I'll have to see once I get that far if it seems worth it.
03-12-2019, 09:31 PM
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#33
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.5mm - First Start Issues
Quick update on this.
I haven't done anythign yet to address the blow-by (running transfluid or water/alcohol) since the general concensus on here is that it isn't a huge deal per say. In the meantime I've installed a relay board to power the added consumers (turbo actuator, turbo controller, turbo coolant pump, and a/w intercooler pump). The board fits conveniently where the m103 ecu used to live, behind the battery.
   
That photo is a bit out of date, now most of the consumers are wired up to it. 

My next problem to sort is related to the turbo controller. Everything powers up, and I've established communication with the controller but I'm getting a firmware version error with it. Doing some back and forth now with the deleloper whose been really helpful so far. Using a standalone Lil' Blackbox to run the turbo. Excited to report back to you guys on how well it does. The dodge guys all seems to really like it.
03-18-2019, 12:08 PM
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#34
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.0mm - Project
Alright Gents, it's complain about my car-problems time again Smile

Got the turbo controller finally talking to the turbo actuator. The car pulls pretty hard when the boost comes in. It's kind of scary with all the noise and the feeling that something is about to explode haha. It's still really lethargic and slow to build boost though. I don't have any exhaust gaskets on it at the moment which is a large reason for that. My next step is to pull the turbo, install the rebuild kit for it since the shaft seals are leaking, and get the gaskets installed
I can't figure out the source of my gray/ blue idle smoke though and could use your thoughts. My timing is set at 24btdc (Myna pump) and I've advanced it up to about 30btdc with no improvement in smoke. My lowest psi cylinder is at 300psi, which I thought should be enough to fully combust the fuel.

Is this symptomatic of a leaking fuel injector? Or bad atomization? I'm attributing the blue smoke to leaking valve seals and/or the turbo seals. I know for sure the turbo intake seal is leaking, so I'm assuming the rear end probably is as well. The tear down will be telling. But the gray smoke as far as I've read has to be unburnt fuel. 

Any input is appreciated

Thanks!
04-09-2019, 03:54 PM
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#35
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.0mm - Project
After watching the video it seem like the blow by is too high. This could be several things as suggested and base on the compression reading you supplied there could be a damaged piston or the rings gaps could be lined up which is not uncommon. This could lead to incomplete combustion and the gray smoke. We usually perform a cylinder leak test to verify this type of issue. The blue smoke can also be caused by piston ring issues like this. I would perform the cylinder leak test, if the pressure is passing through the rings into the crankcase I would just plan on pullin the head for further inspection of piston crowns, cylinder walls, piston protrusion. etc. Keep in mind that if the rings gaps are lined up you will not be able to see that unless you remove the pistons to inspect. At that point its easier to just pull the engine and put it on a stand. The good news is that 603 parts are easier to obtain than 606 parts and should cost less. Also keep in mind that if the rings are not sealing then you are putting excessive fuel into the engine oil, dilution, and this will lead to much bigger problems if you keep running it.
04-14-2019, 08:16 AM
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#36
RE: OM603 w/ Myna 7.0mm - Project
(04-14-2019, 08:16 AM)junkyarddawg Wrote: After watching the video it seem like the blow by is too high. This could be several things as suggested and base on the compression reading you supplied there could be a damaged piston or the rings gaps could be lined up which is not uncommon. This could lead to incomplete combustion and the gray smoke. We usually perform a cylinder leak test to verify this type of issue. The blue smoke can also be caused by piston ring issues like this. I would perform the cylinder leak test, if the pressure is passing through the rings into the crankcase I would just plan on pullin the head for further inspection of piston crowns, cylinder walls, piston protrusion. etc. Keep in mind that if the rings gaps are lined up you will not be able to see that unless you remove the pistons to inspect. At that point its easier to just pull the engine and put it on a stand. The good news is that 603 parts are easier to obtain than 606 parts and should cost less. Also keep in mind that if the rings are not sealing then you are putting excessive fuel into the engine oil, dilution, and this will lead to much bigger problems if you keep running it.

Dang junkyarddawg, you know your stuff.  Appreciate your input and sound advice.

I hadn't thought about the ring gaps being lined up, but given the symptoms that makes a lot of sense. I don't have a leak down tester unfortunately, I'll jump online to see what those go for. I haven't done bottom-end engine work before. Is it simply a matter of swiveling the rings opposite each other if they are in fact aligned? I understand "simply" probably isn't the right word here, considering I still need to remove the engine and piston.

I'll scope the low psi cylinder first though to look for obvious damage. If the motor ate something in it's previous life and there's significant damage, I think I'll just keep an eye out for a new motor. Or is re-sleeving a cylinder and installing a new piston not that big of a deal? (assuming no head damage).
04-15-2019, 01:50 PM
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