Turbo Convert a marine OM616?
Turbo Convert a marine OM616?
07-16-2017, 09:38 AM
#1
I´m new here at STD, has some thought about Turbo Convert a marine OM616. Know that there is a lot of expertise on Mercedes diesel engines with mechanical pumps here at STD.
Have bought a marine Mercedes OM616 that I thought of Turbo Convert to replace a Volvo Penta AQ130 of about 110 hp in a Draco 2000 DC with a VP 280 stern drive.
The plan is to make a flange between the water-cooled exhaust and a water-cooled KKK K26 turbo where I set an EGT meter to keep the exhaust gas temperature monitoring. Also needs to modify the diesel pump with a larger pump element and use a large water-cooled intercooler to keep the suction temperature as low as possible. This engine lacks oil-cooled pistons, is this critical?
Has an adapter plate between the engine and the device.
Need about 130 hp to reach my speed targets (top speed + 30 knots and cruise ships 20-24 knots at 3000-3400 laps, is it possible?
Do I expect a load pressure of about 1.3 bar to achieve this goal?
What problems will I meet in this project?
Please enter and how to do it in the best possible way.
At this work, start autumn and start a Project thread about this, hope I'll have a diesel in the boat for next season
This post was last modified: 07-16-2017, 03:10 PM by Smuggler.
Hi,
I´m new here at STD, has some thought about Turbo Convert a marine OM616. Know that there is a lot of expertise on Mercedes diesel engines with mechanical pumps here at STD.
Have bought a marine Mercedes OM616 that I thought of Turbo Convert to replace a Volvo Penta AQ130 of about 110 hp in a Draco 2000 DC with a VP 280 stern drive.
The plan is to make a flange between the water-cooled exhaust and a water-cooled KKK K26 turbo where I set an EGT meter to keep the exhaust gas temperature monitoring. Also needs to modify the diesel pump with a larger pump element and use a large water-cooled intercooler to keep the suction temperature as low as possible. This engine lacks oil-cooled pistons, is this critical?
Has an adapter plate between the engine and the device.
Need about 130 hp to reach my speed targets (top speed + 30 knots and cruise ships 20-24 knots at 3000-3400 laps, is it possible?
Do I expect a load pressure of about 1.3 bar to achieve this goal?
What problems will I meet in this project?
Please enter and how to do it in the best possible way.
At this work, start autumn and start a Project thread about this, hope I'll have a diesel in the boat for next season
07-17-2017, 04:15 AM
#2
K26 is a very old tech turbo, I would look at something more modern to reduce exhaust backpressure.
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
130hp might be a little optimistic, from memory the the STT turbo kits for the OM616 were about 90 odd hp, and normally marine engines are derated so who knows. I'm hoping to get 200 or so with my NA to turbo OM617 conversion however so no reason your engine can't make it, just a matter of will it sustain that power, the piston oil squirters are probably a good idea considering you'll be at 130hp for hours on end rather than just short times like in a car.
K26 is a very old tech turbo, I would look at something more modern to reduce exhaust backpressure.
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
07-17-2017, 04:40 AM
#3
Its ood.
If i understand anything about marine trusters they tend to be of konstant (or narrow band) RPM. So u need a engine that has BSFC consistent with the truster u have or intend to adapt.
And like mr Scot said , marinized engines will work mostly at konstant RPM at max TQ output , so building a pump for this aplication fueling must be conservative since u cant lift pedal down the hills . And the truster will ask the same hp no mater in aceleration or cruise.
If i were u , i would swap the volvo by a 617A or a 603. Use it liquid cooled, and oil cooled by sea water heat exchangers.
This engines can give u kontant TQ by 3000 rpm and will last years with stock fueling.
617A can handle 150hp and 603, 170 so a lot better choices that the tiny 616.
On the other hand, if u really want go ahed with this conversion i need a modded pump. And the original 616 can be moded for more power.
Welcome
FD,
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What i dont understand is why would u have all this asle in a conversion, and then choose a shitty engine and pre dinosaur tech like the 616.
Its ood.
If i understand anything about marine trusters they tend to be of konstant (or narrow band) RPM. So u need a engine that has BSFC consistent with the truster u have or intend to adapt.
And like mr Scot said , marinized engines will work mostly at konstant RPM at max TQ output , so building a pump for this aplication fueling must be conservative since u cant lift pedal down the hills . And the truster will ask the same hp no mater in aceleration or cruise.
If i were u , i would swap the volvo by a 617A or a 603. Use it liquid cooled, and oil cooled by sea water heat exchangers.
This engines can give u kontant TQ by 3000 rpm and will last years with stock fueling.
617A can handle 150hp and 603, 170 so a lot better choices that the tiny 616.
On the other hand, if u really want go ahed with this conversion i need a modded pump. And the original 616 can be moded for more power.
Welcome
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
07-17-2017, 06:16 AM
#4
If your 616 is equiped with A type is a industrial /marinized engine and uses a variable load governor much alike a generator. I never worked in this pump , i have a friend that did.
If it has MW pump there in not much that can be done for a 50% output increase.
If it has a M pump there is lot that can be done. M pumps can be modded to output at least 150cc . This small M's.
Also the w123 was sold with 616 and M pump.
Nevertheless u can contact Dieselmeken in sweden. He's in Aneby town. And he can help u a lot.
Regards.
FD,
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Did some reserch and the OM616 was produced with 3 type of injection pump, A , M , and MW.
If your 616 is equiped with A type is a industrial /marinized engine and uses a variable load governor much alike a generator. I never worked in this pump , i have a friend that did.
If it has MW pump there in not much that can be done for a 50% output increase.
If it has a M pump there is lot that can be done. M pumps can be modded to output at least 150cc . This small M's.
Also the w123 was sold with 616 and M pump.
Nevertheless u can contact Dieselmeken in sweden. He's in Aneby town. And he can help u a lot.
Regards.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
07-17-2017, 11:25 AM
#5
(07-17-2017, 04:15 AM)NZScott 130hp might be a little optimistic, from memory the the STT turbo kits for the OM616 were about 90 odd hp, and normally marine engines are derated so who knows. I'm hoping to get 200 or so with my NA to turbo OM617 conversion however so no reason your engine can't make it, just a matter of will it sustain that power, the piston oil squirters are probably a good idea considering you'll be at 130hp for hours on end rather than just short times like in a car.
K26 is a very old tech turbo, I would look at something more modern to reduce exhaust backpressure.
Also feels that 130hp is on the limit even maybe on the wrong side off the limit ...
I know there was a turbo kit for the OM616 from AMG / STT that gives 100hp and 193nm. Have thought about this with oil-cooled pistons, it causes a lot of work then the oil pressure may be too low with the original pump?
Have tried to calculate how much power I would need and found that it is needed about 65-80hp at 3000-3500 lap for my cruise speed of 20-24 knots and 130hp at 4500 laps for a top speed of +30 knots. Top speed I will only drive in short times type 5-10 minutes. But I want to use my cruise speed for some hours anyway. It's a bit special with a boat when it's "steadily uphill".
Original NA supplies my engine 62hp at 3600 laps continuously and 72hp at 4200 in less time.
Knowing that the K26 is an old turbo aggregate but it sits on many marine turbodiesels and is easy to find a refurbished for affordable money, a more modern unit costs about 3-4 times more but it would be better
This post was last modified: 07-17-2017, 04:27 PM by Smuggler.
(07-17-2017, 04:15 AM)NZScott 130hp might be a little optimistic, from memory the the STT turbo kits for the OM616 were about 90 odd hp, and normally marine engines are derated so who knows. I'm hoping to get 200 or so with my NA to turbo OM617 conversion however so no reason your engine can't make it, just a matter of will it sustain that power, the piston oil squirters are probably a good idea considering you'll be at 130hp for hours on end rather than just short times like in a car.
K26 is a very old tech turbo, I would look at something more modern to reduce exhaust backpressure.
Also feels that 130hp is on the limit even maybe on the wrong side off the limit ...
I know there was a turbo kit for the OM616 from AMG / STT that gives 100hp and 193nm. Have thought about this with oil-cooled pistons, it causes a lot of work then the oil pressure may be too low with the original pump?
Have tried to calculate how much power I would need and found that it is needed about 65-80hp at 3000-3500 lap for my cruise speed of 20-24 knots and 130hp at 4500 laps for a top speed of +30 knots. Top speed I will only drive in short times type 5-10 minutes. But I want to use my cruise speed for some hours anyway. It's a bit special with a boat when it's "steadily uphill".
Original NA supplies my engine 62hp at 3600 laps continuously and 72hp at 4200 in less time.
Knowing that the K26 is an old turbo aggregate but it sits on many marine turbodiesels and is easy to find a refurbished for affordable money, a more modern unit costs about 3-4 times more but it would be better
07-17-2017, 01:33 PM
#6
(07-17-2017, 04:40 AM)barrote What i dont understand is why would u have all this asle in a conversion, and then choose a shitty engine and pre dinosaur tech like the 616.
Its ood.
If i understand anything about marine trusters they tend to be of konstant (or narrow band) RPM. So u need a engine that has BSFC consistent with the truster u have or intend to adapt.
And like mr Scot said , marinized engines will work mostly at konstant RPM at max TQ output , so building a pump for this aplication fueling must be conservative since u cant lift pedal down the hills . And the truster will ask the same hp no mater in aceleration or cruise.Å
If i were u , i would swap the volvo by a 617A or a 603. Use it liquid cooled, and oil cooled by sea water heat exchangers.
This engines can give u kontant TQ by 3000 rpm and will last years with stock fueling.
617A can handle 150hp and 603, 170 so a lot better choices that the tiny 616.
On the other hand, if u really want go ahed with this conversion i need a modded pump. And the original 616 can be moded for more power.
Welcome
The reason I want to use this engine and turbo convert is that it's a marine engine from the start. Have also looked at other engines such as OM602 and OM605 for marine and turbo to convert these. This would have meant more jobs and become significantly more expensive, but end up, the outcome would probably have improved. Also has space problems to accommodate a 5 or 6-cylinder engine.
I thought the OM616 and 617 were quite similar to each other with the difference that 617 had a cylinder morse and that 617A also had oil-cooled pistons?
This post was last modified: 07-18-2017, 04:15 AM by Smuggler.
(07-17-2017, 04:40 AM)barrote What i dont understand is why would u have all this asle in a conversion, and then choose a shitty engine and pre dinosaur tech like the 616.
Its ood.
If i understand anything about marine trusters they tend to be of konstant (or narrow band) RPM. So u need a engine that has BSFC consistent with the truster u have or intend to adapt.
And like mr Scot said , marinized engines will work mostly at konstant RPM at max TQ output , so building a pump for this aplication fueling must be conservative since u cant lift pedal down the hills . And the truster will ask the same hp no mater in aceleration or cruise.Å
If i were u , i would swap the volvo by a 617A or a 603. Use it liquid cooled, and oil cooled by sea water heat exchangers.
This engines can give u kontant TQ by 3000 rpm and will last years with stock fueling.
617A can handle 150hp and 603, 170 so a lot better choices that the tiny 616.
On the other hand, if u really want go ahed with this conversion i need a modded pump. And the original 616 can be moded for more power.
Welcome
The reason I want to use this engine and turbo convert is that it's a marine engine from the start. Have also looked at other engines such as OM602 and OM605 for marine and turbo to convert these. This would have meant more jobs and become significantly more expensive, but end up, the outcome would probably have improved. Also has space problems to accommodate a 5 or 6-cylinder engine.
I thought the OM616 and 617 were quite similar to each other with the difference that 617 had a cylinder morse and that 617A also had oil-cooled pistons?
07-17-2017, 02:15 PM
#7
(07-17-2017, 06:16 AM)barrote Did some reserch and the OM616 was produced with 3 type of injection pump, A , M , and MW.Thank you for your research
If your 616 is equiped with A type is a industrial /marinized engine and uses a variable load governor much alike a generator. I never worked in this pump , i have a friend that did.
If it has MW pump there in not much that can be done for a 50% output increase.
If it has a M pump there is lot that can be done. M pumps can be modded to output at least 150cc . This small M's.
Also the w123 was sold with 616 and M pump.
Nevertheless u can contact Dieselmeken in sweden. He's in Aneby town. And he can help u a lot.
Regards.
Did not know there were three different pumps, only found the one on OM615 with the control on the intake and the one on the OM616 with the control directly on the pump.
Has been in touch with dieselmeken and he said there would be no problem upgrading my pump to 130hp or more If it had the control directly on the pump. But he has not seen my pump but asked just where the control was, it is possible that it is equipped with A-type pump for industrial / marineized use?
Regards.
(07-17-2017, 06:16 AM)barrote Did some reserch and the OM616 was produced with 3 type of injection pump, A , M , and MW.Thank you for your research
If your 616 is equiped with A type is a industrial /marinized engine and uses a variable load governor much alike a generator. I never worked in this pump , i have a friend that did.
If it has MW pump there in not much that can be done for a 50% output increase.
If it has a M pump there is lot that can be done. M pumps can be modded to output at least 150cc . This small M's.
Also the w123 was sold with 616 and M pump.
Nevertheless u can contact Dieselmeken in sweden. He's in Aneby town. And he can help u a lot.
Regards.
Did not know there were three different pumps, only found the one on OM615 with the control on the intake and the one on the OM616 with the control directly on the pump.
Has been in touch with dieselmeken and he said there would be no problem upgrading my pump to 130hp or more If it had the control directly on the pump. But he has not seen my pump but asked just where the control was, it is possible that it is equipped with A-type pump for industrial / marineized use?
Regards.
07-17-2017, 08:31 PM
#8
I'd say if you port the head, use a modern turbo, a big oil cooler, and have dieselmenken rework a 'M' pump you imght be able to do it.
A 617 would be much easier though, and the bell housings all match up.
A marine/generator injection pump could easily be sold in the USA-people always want to make OM616 generators and that's the missing piece of the puzzle.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
07-17-2017, 08:31 PM #8The oil squirters are hard to add, you might as well use a 617 if you really want them.
I'd say if you port the head, use a modern turbo, a big oil cooler, and have dieselmenken rework a 'M' pump you imght be able to do it.
A 617 would be much easier though, and the bell housings all match up.
A marine/generator injection pump could easily be sold in the USA-people always want to make OM616 generators and that's the missing piece of the puzzle.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
07-18-2017, 05:17 AM
#9
(07-17-2017, 08:31 PM)Simpler=Better The oil squirters are hard to add, you might as well use a 617 if you really want them.Okey i get the point, OM617A is a much better item to begin with.
I'd say if you port the head, use a modern turbo, a big oil cooler, and have dieselmenken rework a 'M' pump you imght be able to do it.
A 617 would be much easier though, and the bell housings all match up.
A marine/generator injection pump could easily be sold in the USA-people always want to make OM616 generators and that's the missing piece of the puzzle.
The problem is not the bell housings without finding a watercooled mainfold to an OM617 if I do so then I can move across all marine parts to the 617A and then I have a engine built for turbo from the beginning with oil-cooled pistons and everything from Start.
Among the marine parts includes a large seawater cooled oil cooler, then I will buy a large seawater cooled intercooler to keep the air intake air temperature down.
Must find out which diesel pump is on my engine, the problem is that it is far from my home. The engine is a Mercedes Benz marine engine from start so there's no converted car engine so it's possible that there's a marine / generator injection pump on my engine.
Regarding the K26 turbon, I can buy a refurbished of about 400-500 euros. A more modern turbo with water cooled exhaust gas costs maybe 1000-1500 euros.
Also have another option that is more rebooted but interesting an Eaton M90 compressor, perhaps not a good idea?
There are some advantages but also many disadvantages ....
This post was last modified: 07-18-2017, 10:31 AM by Smuggler.
(07-17-2017, 08:31 PM)Simpler=Better The oil squirters are hard to add, you might as well use a 617 if you really want them.Okey i get the point, OM617A is a much better item to begin with.
I'd say if you port the head, use a modern turbo, a big oil cooler, and have dieselmenken rework a 'M' pump you imght be able to do it.
A 617 would be much easier though, and the bell housings all match up.
A marine/generator injection pump could easily be sold in the USA-people always want to make OM616 generators and that's the missing piece of the puzzle.
The problem is not the bell housings without finding a watercooled mainfold to an OM617 if I do so then I can move across all marine parts to the 617A and then I have a engine built for turbo from the beginning with oil-cooled pistons and everything from Start.
Among the marine parts includes a large seawater cooled oil cooler, then I will buy a large seawater cooled intercooler to keep the air intake air temperature down.
Must find out which diesel pump is on my engine, the problem is that it is far from my home. The engine is a Mercedes Benz marine engine from start so there's no converted car engine so it's possible that there's a marine / generator injection pump on my engine.
Regarding the K26 turbon, I can buy a refurbished of about 400-500 euros. A more modern turbo with water cooled exhaust gas costs maybe 1000-1500 euros.
Also have another option that is more rebooted but interesting an Eaton M90 compressor, perhaps not a good idea?
There are some advantages but also many disadvantages ....
07-18-2017, 08:03 AM
#10
The one milion miles MB engine is the 617A!!!
I guess it says it all about this engine. The 616 is a derivative, rather than a predecessor.
617A were industrialized and marinized too. U should have no wories finding the seawater heat exchangers.
In the 617A u can ask 150hp constantly and expect no wories.
The best turbo solution for this 617 is a holsed HX30 series. Holsets are mainly used in heavy duty aplications. For us road drivers the are not so good due to lag , but for a boat engine that is not a problem.
It fits the 616 too. And for 1000 € u can buy a original in the box a still have some money left for f ^*& beers.
If u have room and weight available this is from all the best solution. Even a 617 N/A turboed will last longuer.
Regards.
FD,
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Mr smugler ....
The one milion miles MB engine is the 617A!!!
I guess it says it all about this engine. The 616 is a derivative, rather than a predecessor.
617A were industrialized and marinized too. U should have no wories finding the seawater heat exchangers.
In the 617A u can ask 150hp constantly and expect no wories.
The best turbo solution for this 617 is a holsed HX30 series. Holsets are mainly used in heavy duty aplications. For us road drivers the are not so good due to lag , but for a boat engine that is not a problem.
It fits the 616 too. And for 1000 € u can buy a original in the box a still have some money left for f ^*& beers.
If u have room and weight available this is from all the best solution. Even a 617 N/A turboed will last longuer.
Regards.
FD,
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07-19-2017, 01:58 AM
#11
------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.elbe.ee - MB performance parts.
Hx30 should have water cooled turbine housing as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.elbe.ee - MB performance parts.
07-19-2017, 11:17 AM
#12
On the Holset turbo I have only found water-cooled turbine housings from HX40 and upwards, HX30 have I not found with water-cooled turbine houses?
How is the quality of china turbo? Anyone who has experience of these?
No one liked my idea with an M90 compressor?
This post was last modified: 07-19-2017, 11:18 AM by Smuggler.
It's a bit strange, I thought all marine turbo had water-cooled turbine houses.? When I was looking around I found several units that should be marine turbo but I do not think they seem to be water-cooled?
On the Holset turbo I have only found water-cooled turbine housings from HX40 and upwards, HX30 have I not found with water-cooled turbine houses?
How is the quality of china turbo? Anyone who has experience of these?
No one liked my idea with an M90 compressor?
07-19-2017, 12:21 PM
#13
(07-18-2017, 08:03 AM)barrote Mr smugler ....A OM617 turbocharged diesel at 230 hp/4,500 rpm that broke nine Diesel and gasoline speed records eventually reached 322 km/h in 1978, and averaged 16.0 liters / 100 km at 316 km / h over a 12-hour cruise. And kept the record in 25 years so yes it's a fantastic engine!
The one milion miles MB engine is the 617A!!!
I guess it says it all about this engine. The 616 is a derivative, rather than a predecessor.
617A were industrialized and marinized too. U should have no wories finding the seawater heat exchangers.
In the 617A u can ask 150hp constantly and expect no wories.
The best turbo solution for this 617 is a holsed HX30 series. Holsets are mainly used in heavy duty aplications. For us road drivers the are not so good due to lag , but for a boat engine that is not a problem.
It fits the 616 too. And for 1000 € u can buy a original in the box a still have some money left for f ^*& beers.
If u have room and weight available this is from all the best solution. Even a 617 N/A turboed will last longuer.
Regards.
Have looked at the water-cooled mainfold to OM617 and they cost about 1300 Euro + vat + shipping
The plan is now to convert my OM616 and see how the result will be and in the worst case I can lift the Volvo engine back or buy an OM617A and move over the marine parts from my 616 and buy another mainfold to OM617.
Looking at a complete OM617A that went 190,000km they wanted 1500 Euro for a bit expensive I think.
This post was last modified: 07-19-2017, 12:35 PM by Smuggler.
(07-18-2017, 08:03 AM)barrote Mr smugler ....A OM617 turbocharged diesel at 230 hp/4,500 rpm that broke nine Diesel and gasoline speed records eventually reached 322 km/h in 1978, and averaged 16.0 liters / 100 km at 316 km / h over a 12-hour cruise. And kept the record in 25 years so yes it's a fantastic engine!
The one milion miles MB engine is the 617A!!!
I guess it says it all about this engine. The 616 is a derivative, rather than a predecessor.
617A were industrialized and marinized too. U should have no wories finding the seawater heat exchangers.
In the 617A u can ask 150hp constantly and expect no wories.
The best turbo solution for this 617 is a holsed HX30 series. Holsets are mainly used in heavy duty aplications. For us road drivers the are not so good due to lag , but for a boat engine that is not a problem.
It fits the 616 too. And for 1000 € u can buy a original in the box a still have some money left for f ^*& beers.
If u have room and weight available this is from all the best solution. Even a 617 N/A turboed will last longuer.
Regards.
Have looked at the water-cooled mainfold to OM617 and they cost about 1300 Euro + vat + shipping
The plan is now to convert my OM616 and see how the result will be and in the worst case I can lift the Volvo engine back or buy an OM617A and move over the marine parts from my 616 and buy another mainfold to OM617.
Looking at a complete OM617A that went 190,000km they wanted 1500 Euro for a bit expensive I think.
07-20-2017, 06:02 PM
#14
Engine Type: OM616.918 - Turbo Diesel Mercedes 2.4
Construction Year: 1979-1987
Number of cylinders: 4
Drill ø: 91 mm
Engine content: 2399 CC
Compression ratio: 21: 1
HP: 72
???
My engine is at 72hp so it's correct but it has no turbo yet
Know that there was an OM616 turbo that was manufactured on license In India by Force Motor as at 90hp.
Could it be that the marine engines that should be heavy duty were based on the turbovariant?
OM616.918 was also in the Mercedes Benz G-Class W461
This post was last modified: 07-20-2017, 06:23 PM by Smuggler.
My engine is called OM616.918 and when I google it, I get the following:
Engine Type: OM616.918 - Turbo Diesel Mercedes 2.4
Construction Year: 1979-1987
Number of cylinders: 4
Drill ø: 91 mm
Engine content: 2399 CC
Compression ratio: 21: 1
HP: 72
???
My engine is at 72hp so it's correct but it has no turbo yet
Know that there was an OM616 turbo that was manufactured on license In India by Force Motor as at 90hp.
Could it be that the marine engines that should be heavy duty were based on the turbovariant?
OM616.918 was also in the Mercedes Benz G-Class W461
07-24-2017, 01:43 AM
#15
if you really want something reliable and capable of ~150HP output for sustained periods of time i might not look at a 616. the stress of turbo charging it over a long period of running would likely kill it. look at the cat 3116 marine engines they can live an ok life if you run them at the de-rated power level but if you get the 350hp version good luck getting past 500 hours out of them without real problems. im not saying a 616 couldn't make 150+hp just that in a boat where you are going to be running it near wide open for a long time it wouldn't live a long life.
the force motors om616 is barely the same engine at all. the head has been re cast to make it into a cross flow pattern along with the increase of displacement to 2.6L plus its also a direct injected motor. its about as close to a 616 as a Nissan L28 is to a M180. that being said i looked into one of those engines and quickly realized they are crap. everyone that has them says they barely make 90hp and don't rev nearly as well as the idi engines plus they tend to die around 150-200K. still an interesting redesign.
if you really want something reliable and capable of ~150HP output for sustained periods of time i might not look at a 616. the stress of turbo charging it over a long period of running would likely kill it. look at the cat 3116 marine engines they can live an ok life if you run them at the de-rated power level but if you get the 350hp version good luck getting past 500 hours out of them without real problems. im not saying a 616 couldn't make 150+hp just that in a boat where you are going to be running it near wide open for a long time it wouldn't live a long life.
07-24-2017, 03:06 AM
#16
If you do keep on the 616 route I realise you don't want to fork out big money on a modern turbo but just look for something 2nd hand that's more modern than a K26, I cringe when I see people rebuilding that and the stock Garrett T3 as they're just so old and inefficient and the money would be far better off spent elsewhere
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
There's actually different versions they made, they did originally have a basic turbo 616 with 617A parts to begin with then developed the engine you talk about which is DI and 2.6L.
If you do keep on the 616 route I realise you don't want to fork out big money on a modern turbo but just look for something 2nd hand that's more modern than a K26, I cringe when I see people rebuilding that and the stock Garrett T3 as they're just so old and inefficient and the money would be far better off spent elsewhere
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
07-24-2017, 09:30 AM
#17
(07-24-2017, 01:43 AM)R-3350 if you really want something reliable and capable of ~150HP output for sustained periods of time i might not look at a 616. the stress of turbo charging it over a long period of running would likely kill it. look at the cat 3116 marine engines they can live an ok life if you run them at the de-rated power level but if you get the 350hp version good luck getting past 500 hours out of them without real problems. im not saying a 616 couldn't make 150+hp just that in a boat where you are going to be running it near wide open for a long time it wouldn't live a long life.
Can not so much about the CAT engines but is not a 3116 a rather big engine? My boat is a small 20ft DC of 1200kg which is best in cruises around 20-24 knots.
4-cylinder marine diesels that I might be fit in are Volvo Penta TMD 31 and TMD 22.
+ 150hp is not necessary without 100-130hp would be optimal in my boat with a continuous power output of 55-75hp at 2800-3400 rpm.
500 hours would be an approved life span as I drive max 50 hours a year.
This post was last modified: 07-24-2017, 11:07 AM by Smuggler.
(07-24-2017, 01:43 AM)R-3350 if you really want something reliable and capable of ~150HP output for sustained periods of time i might not look at a 616. the stress of turbo charging it over a long period of running would likely kill it. look at the cat 3116 marine engines they can live an ok life if you run them at the de-rated power level but if you get the 350hp version good luck getting past 500 hours out of them without real problems. im not saying a 616 couldn't make 150+hp just that in a boat where you are going to be running it near wide open for a long time it wouldn't live a long life.
Can not so much about the CAT engines but is not a 3116 a rather big engine? My boat is a small 20ft DC of 1200kg which is best in cruises around 20-24 knots.
4-cylinder marine diesels that I might be fit in are Volvo Penta TMD 31 and TMD 22.
+ 150hp is not necessary without 100-130hp would be optimal in my boat with a continuous power output of 55-75hp at 2800-3400 rpm.
500 hours would be an approved life span as I drive max 50 hours a year.
07-24-2017, 09:41 AM
#18
(07-24-2017, 03:06 AM)NZScott If you do keep on the 616 route I realise you don't want to fork out big money on a modern turbo but just look for something 2nd hand that's more modern than a K26, I cringe when I see people rebuilding that and the stock Garrett T3 as they're just so old and inefficient and the money would be far better off spent elsewhere
Just so, my thoughts go but the more modern turbo I have found is not water-cooled, it seems that the manufacturers have left it and use a turbo hat instead?
(07-24-2017, 03:06 AM)NZScott If you do keep on the 616 route I realise you don't want to fork out big money on a modern turbo but just look for something 2nd hand that's more modern than a K26, I cringe when I see people rebuilding that and the stock Garrett T3 as they're just so old and inefficient and the money would be far better off spent elsewhere
Just so, my thoughts go but the more modern turbo I have found is not water-cooled, it seems that the manufacturers have left it and use a turbo hat instead?
07-25-2017, 02:25 AM
#19
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Would you get away without it? I would think the manifold would suck enough heat out of it (which is a bad thing from a performance by of view but it is done for reasons in boats). You're still going to run water into the exhaust post turbo?
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
07-25-2017, 04:25 PM
#20
(07-25-2017, 02:25 AM)NZScott Would you get away without it? I would think the manifold would suck enough heat out of it (which is a bad thing from a performance by of view but it is done for reasons in boats). You're still going to run water into the exhaust post turbo?
Do not know, it seems to be a conventional solution with non-water cooled turbo for marine use, but would feel safer with a water cooled as it's a very small engine room almost completely without ventilation.
Yes, there will be dry exhaust with water covered by the mainfold until about 5 centimeters from the turbo where the EGT will sit and then add water with the exhaust after turbo if that was what you meant?
Has seen marine-converted BMW 3.0 (M57) diesel engines that have used original manifolds with exhaust wrap and late water after the turbo. I'm skeptical, a simple solution but should develop a lot of heat?
(07-25-2017, 02:25 AM)NZScott Would you get away without it? I would think the manifold would suck enough heat out of it (which is a bad thing from a performance by of view but it is done for reasons in boats). You're still going to run water into the exhaust post turbo?
Do not know, it seems to be a conventional solution with non-water cooled turbo for marine use, but would feel safer with a water cooled as it's a very small engine room almost completely without ventilation.
Yes, there will be dry exhaust with water covered by the mainfold until about 5 centimeters from the turbo where the EGT will sit and then add water with the exhaust after turbo if that was what you meant?
Has seen marine-converted BMW 3.0 (M57) diesel engines that have used original manifolds with exhaust wrap and late water after the turbo. I'm skeptical, a simple solution but should develop a lot of heat?
07-26-2017, 01:42 AM
#21
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Up to you, best to err on the side of caution. Wrapping is probably alright for any exposed non water jacketed stuff, it won't see the temps of a petrol engine I would think? Can always trial it anyway
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
07-26-2017, 03:07 PM
#22
(07-26-2017, 01:42 AM)NZScott Up to you, best to err on the side of caution. Wrapping is probably alright for any exposed non water jacketed stuff, it won't see the temps of a petrol engine I would think? Can always trial it anyway
Yes, I know, it makes it more difficult
I'm not sure that a turbo cap is sufficient? Will there be an exhaust gas temperature of 500-600C after mainfold? One of the reasons I want to switch from gasoline to diesel is to reduce fire risk.
This post was last modified: 07-26-2017, 03:11 PM by Smuggler.
(07-26-2017, 01:42 AM)NZScott Up to you, best to err on the side of caution. Wrapping is probably alright for any exposed non water jacketed stuff, it won't see the temps of a petrol engine I would think? Can always trial it anyway
Yes, I know, it makes it more difficult
I'm not sure that a turbo cap is sufficient? Will there be an exhaust gas temperature of 500-600C after mainfold? One of the reasons I want to switch from gasoline to diesel is to reduce fire risk.
07-27-2017, 12:01 AM
#23
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Temps will drop maybe up to a couple hundred *C post turbo and you won't want to be running 600* constantly with no oil cooling nozzles I would think, 500 would be better I would think so maybe 300-400 post turbo at a wild guess
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
07-27-2017, 01:49 PM
#24
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
07-27-2017, 01:49 PM #24I have wrapped my daily driver (gasser, but sitll) and it makes a huge difference for under hood temps. Buy the nice DEI brand wrap, follow the directions, use the spray coating.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
07-27-2017, 04:33 PM
#25
(07-27-2017, 12:01 AM)NZScott Temps will drop maybe up to a couple hundred *C post turbo and you won't want to be running 600* constantly with no oil cooling nozzles I would think, 500 would be better I would think so maybe 300-400 post turbo at a wild guess
yachtwork.com/report-turbo.htm
600-700 according to the page above, under 500C after turbo according to the Pentas rep manual, I saw now.
But as you say, maybe I'll aim at 100-200C lower because I have no oil cooling nozzles.
Then comes the next question.
Will there be any speed on the exhaust gas at these temperatures, so that turbo can deliver some charge pressure?
(07-27-2017, 12:01 AM)NZScott Temps will drop maybe up to a couple hundred *C post turbo and you won't want to be running 600* constantly with no oil cooling nozzles I would think, 500 would be better I would think so maybe 300-400 post turbo at a wild guess
yachtwork.com/report-turbo.htm
600-700 according to the page above, under 500C after turbo according to the Pentas rep manual, I saw now.
But as you say, maybe I'll aim at 100-200C lower because I have no oil cooling nozzles.
Then comes the next question.
Will there be any speed on the exhaust gas at these temperatures, so that turbo can deliver some charge pressure?
07-27-2017, 09:22 PM
#26
What injection pump do you have in mind? The 5.5mm elements won't cut it. Can get them swapped for bigger ones (6mm would do I think) or swap pumps completely to a 4 cyl one off a more powerful engine (something us 5 cylinder owners can't really do)
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
The engine will have load on it to get the turbo going, you just have to shove air in on top of that to bring temps down. Marine engines are constant load so the right turbo could be calculated in theory to do the job.
What injection pump do you have in mind? The 5.5mm elements won't cut it. Can get them swapped for bigger ones (6mm would do I think) or swap pumps completely to a 4 cyl one off a more powerful engine (something us 5 cylinder owners can't really do)
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
07-28-2017, 04:51 PM
#27
(07-27-2017, 09:22 PM)NZScott The engine will have load on it to get the turbo going, you just have to shove air in on top of that to bring temps down. Marine engines are constant load so the right turbo could be calculated in theory to do the job.Having talked to a company that is renovating turbo and they recommend a refurbished water cooled K26 as a budget alternative, otherwise they can build a turbo according to my needs but then it will be about 3-4 times more expensive. This is a low budget project so the more expensive options there is no room for. Used marine turbos also seem to be lacking, expensive and insecure condition.
What injection pump do you have in mind? The 5.5mm elements won't cut it. Can get them swapped for bigger ones (6mm would do I think) or swap pumps completely to a 4 cyl one off a more powerful engine (something us 5 cylinder owners can't really do)
So I'm a bit on a turbo from a car and use turbo cap and wrap it? If it still does not have to be water-cooled, which I thought previously, maybe it might be an alternative, much more access to than marine turbos.
Is there anyone who can count and suggest turbo, I'm grateful?
Have looked at the Garrett GT2052V standard on the Volvo D2,4 / D5 and the Audi 2.5 TDI is available from about 300 euros used. The problem is that it is VNT controlled do not know if I can solve that control with vacuum? Or if I'm going to look for a WG controlled turbo aggregate instead? Seems like any newer turbo is VNT controlled?
Regarding the injection pump, I have talked to Dieselmeken and he says there should be no problem rebuilding my pump to deliver diesel for 130hp or what I wish. Do not know what size of elements he will use.
This post was last modified: 07-28-2017, 05:05 PM by Smuggler.
(07-27-2017, 09:22 PM)NZScott The engine will have load on it to get the turbo going, you just have to shove air in on top of that to bring temps down. Marine engines are constant load so the right turbo could be calculated in theory to do the job.Having talked to a company that is renovating turbo and they recommend a refurbished water cooled K26 as a budget alternative, otherwise they can build a turbo according to my needs but then it will be about 3-4 times more expensive. This is a low budget project so the more expensive options there is no room for. Used marine turbos also seem to be lacking, expensive and insecure condition.
What injection pump do you have in mind? The 5.5mm elements won't cut it. Can get them swapped for bigger ones (6mm would do I think) or swap pumps completely to a 4 cyl one off a more powerful engine (something us 5 cylinder owners can't really do)
So I'm a bit on a turbo from a car and use turbo cap and wrap it? If it still does not have to be water-cooled, which I thought previously, maybe it might be an alternative, much more access to than marine turbos.
Is there anyone who can count and suggest turbo, I'm grateful?
Have looked at the Garrett GT2052V standard on the Volvo D2,4 / D5 and the Audi 2.5 TDI is available from about 300 euros used. The problem is that it is VNT controlled do not know if I can solve that control with vacuum? Or if I'm going to look for a WG controlled turbo aggregate instead? Seems like any newer turbo is VNT controlled?
Regarding the injection pump, I have talked to Dieselmeken and he says there should be no problem rebuilding my pump to deliver diesel for 130hp or what I wish. Do not know what size of elements he will use.
07-28-2017, 05:24 PM
#28
(07-17-2017, 08:31 PM)Simpler=Better I'd say if you port the head, use a modern turbo, a big oil cooler, and have dieselmenken rework a 'M' pump you imght be able to do it.
Do you think it's necessary to port the head to reach 130hp? Will I have surge else?
07-29-2017, 05:05 AM
#29
(07-28-2017, 04:51 PM)Smuggler Having talked to a company that is renovating turbo and they recommend a refurbished water cooled K26 as a budget alternative, otherwise they can build a turbo according to my needs but then it will be about 3-4 times more expensive. This is a low budget project so the more expensive options there is no room for. Used marine turbos also seem to be lacking, expensive and insecure condition.
So I'm a bit on a turbo from a car and use turbo cap and wrap it? If it still does not have to be water-cooled, which I thought previously, maybe it might be an alternative, much more access to than marine turbos.
Is there anyone who can count and suggest turbo, I'm grateful?
Have looked at the Garrett GT2052V standard on the Volvo D2,4 / D5 and the Audi 2.5 TDI is available from about 300 euros used. The problem is that it is VNT controlled do not know if I can solve that control with vacuum? Or if I'm going to look for a WG controlled turbo aggregate instead? Seems like any newer turbo is VNT controlled?
Regarding the injection pump, I have talked to Dieselmeken and he says there should be no problem rebuilding my pump to deliver diesel for 130hp or what I wish. Do not know what size of elements he will use.
Can always lock the nozzles in place near or fully open as being a marine engine spool time isn't that much of a concern.
Sounds like you're pretty well sussed otherwise. Keen to know how you get on
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
(07-28-2017, 04:51 PM)Smuggler Having talked to a company that is renovating turbo and they recommend a refurbished water cooled K26 as a budget alternative, otherwise they can build a turbo according to my needs but then it will be about 3-4 times more expensive. This is a low budget project so the more expensive options there is no room for. Used marine turbos also seem to be lacking, expensive and insecure condition.
So I'm a bit on a turbo from a car and use turbo cap and wrap it? If it still does not have to be water-cooled, which I thought previously, maybe it might be an alternative, much more access to than marine turbos.
Is there anyone who can count and suggest turbo, I'm grateful?
Have looked at the Garrett GT2052V standard on the Volvo D2,4 / D5 and the Audi 2.5 TDI is available from about 300 euros used. The problem is that it is VNT controlled do not know if I can solve that control with vacuum? Or if I'm going to look for a WG controlled turbo aggregate instead? Seems like any newer turbo is VNT controlled?
Regarding the injection pump, I have talked to Dieselmeken and he says there should be no problem rebuilding my pump to deliver diesel for 130hp or what I wish. Do not know what size of elements he will use.
Can always lock the nozzles in place near or fully open as being a marine engine spool time isn't that much of a concern.
Sounds like you're pretty well sussed otherwise. Keen to know how you get on
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
07-29-2017, 09:33 AM
#30
Stationary engines usually use freefloat turbo systems... they just operate in ideal conditions... VNT and WG turbos are used in automotive aplications due the fact that users want (and need)a flat power band if possible.
Systems tend to mask deficiencies... by aleviating drive press in WG . And by changing turbine relative a/r in VNTs.
A WG turbo is not needed for a boat engine neither desirable, a VNT is completely of question due to low eficiency.
But in any case the automotive industry can suply a very fine and cheap turbo for a boat. Like a gt20w.
And about temp... well the hotter the gas enters the turbine the lower the drive press will be for the same work. turbine cooling is only desirable and needed when gas stream is over 1000°C continuously and that cause the turbine may start to melt.
If heating in engine bay is a problem... shield it, as it is the best option.
130 hp from 616 continuous ...
It sounds recepy for desaster... but we only know that after trying...
Good build
This post was last modified: 07-29-2017, 09:44 AM by barrote.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Sorry to imput... and disturb your ideas...
Stationary engines usually use freefloat turbo systems... they just operate in ideal conditions... VNT and WG turbos are used in automotive aplications due the fact that users want (and need)a flat power band if possible.
Systems tend to mask deficiencies... by aleviating drive press in WG . And by changing turbine relative a/r in VNTs.
A WG turbo is not needed for a boat engine neither desirable, a VNT is completely of question due to low eficiency.
But in any case the automotive industry can suply a very fine and cheap turbo for a boat. Like a gt20w.
And about temp... well the hotter the gas enters the turbine the lower the drive press will be for the same work. turbine cooling is only desirable and needed when gas stream is over 1000°C continuously and that cause the turbine may start to melt.
If heating in engine bay is a problem... shield it, as it is the best option.
130 hp from 616 continuous ...
It sounds recepy for desaster... but we only know that after trying...
Good build
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
07-30-2017, 05:35 PM
#31
(07-29-2017, 09:33 AM)barrote Sorry to imput... and disturb your ideas...I'm just grateful for the input that I get, even if it's a problem with my concept, maybe I'll do this in a better way than I thought from the beginning.
Stationary engines usually use freefloat turbo systems... they just operate in ideal conditions... VNT and WG turbos are used in automotive aplications due the fact that users want (and need)a flat power band if possible.
Systems tend to mask deficiencies... by aleviating drive press in WG . And by changing turbine relative a/r in VNTs.
A WG turbo is not needed for a boat engine neither desirable, a VNT is completely of question due to low eficiency.
But in any case the automotive industry can suply a very fine and cheap turbo for a boat. Like a gt20w.
And about temp... well the hotter the gas enters the turbine the lower the drive press will be for the same work. turbine cooling is only desirable and needed when gas stream is over 1000°C continuously and that cause the turbine may start to melt.
If heating in engine bay is a problem... shield it, as it is the best option.
130 hp from 616 continuous ...
It sounds recepy for desaster... but we only know that after trying...
Good build
Have looked around on different car models to find someone who is suitable to donate a turbo.
Think that it will be harder to get VNT work, WG is therefore better?
Have looked at GT20, nobody with W but just blank or with V that I suppose stands for VNT? The GT20 is on diesel Mercedes W210 220 CDI. The exhaust flange was conical on the GT20 from MB which makes it harder to manufacture exhaust gas knee to it.
Found a page where "all" turbo models were available and could see which car models they were on. I do not find that page again.
And about temp, I have wrong, thought it would get better pressure with warmer exhaust gases, thanks for updating.
If turbo is water-jacketed, I do not have any problems with heat in the engine room, but if I choose wrap and a cap it becomes more uncertain what's happening. I have not decided if I should choose the water-cooled outdated K26 turbo or try to find a more modern turbo without water cooling.
The limits for the power increase achieved are determined by the thermal and mechanical strength of the engine.
If I have an injector pump that delivers enough diesel and a turbo that gives an air surplus then the top must flow well enough for the engine to deliver the desired effect.
Think it will be the heat in the cylinders that will be my biggest problem, it's enough that a cylinder is too hot for maybe 20-30 seconds, so there may be a hole in the piston, you can not look at the engine temperature, maybe not on the EGT meter then It sits after the water cooled exhaust pipe. My way of handling it is to use a large seawater cooled intercooler to keep the intake air as cold as possible, I do not know if that's enough.
My effect target is maybe 60-80hp 3000-3600 rpm continuous power and 100-130hp 4000-4500 rpm in short moments.
This post was last modified: 07-30-2017, 06:07 PM by Smuggler.
(07-29-2017, 09:33 AM)barrote Sorry to imput... and disturb your ideas...I'm just grateful for the input that I get, even if it's a problem with my concept, maybe I'll do this in a better way than I thought from the beginning.
Stationary engines usually use freefloat turbo systems... they just operate in ideal conditions... VNT and WG turbos are used in automotive aplications due the fact that users want (and need)a flat power band if possible.
Systems tend to mask deficiencies... by aleviating drive press in WG . And by changing turbine relative a/r in VNTs.
A WG turbo is not needed for a boat engine neither desirable, a VNT is completely of question due to low eficiency.
But in any case the automotive industry can suply a very fine and cheap turbo for a boat. Like a gt20w.
And about temp... well the hotter the gas enters the turbine the lower the drive press will be for the same work. turbine cooling is only desirable and needed when gas stream is over 1000°C continuously and that cause the turbine may start to melt.
If heating in engine bay is a problem... shield it, as it is the best option.
130 hp from 616 continuous ...
It sounds recepy for desaster... but we only know that after trying...
Good build
Have looked around on different car models to find someone who is suitable to donate a turbo.
Think that it will be harder to get VNT work, WG is therefore better?
Have looked at GT20, nobody with W but just blank or with V that I suppose stands for VNT? The GT20 is on diesel Mercedes W210 220 CDI. The exhaust flange was conical on the GT20 from MB which makes it harder to manufacture exhaust gas knee to it.
Found a page where "all" turbo models were available and could see which car models they were on. I do not find that page again.
And about temp, I have wrong, thought it would get better pressure with warmer exhaust gases, thanks for updating.
If turbo is water-jacketed, I do not have any problems with heat in the engine room, but if I choose wrap and a cap it becomes more uncertain what's happening. I have not decided if I should choose the water-cooled outdated K26 turbo or try to find a more modern turbo without water cooling.
The limits for the power increase achieved are determined by the thermal and mechanical strength of the engine.
If I have an injector pump that delivers enough diesel and a turbo that gives an air surplus then the top must flow well enough for the engine to deliver the desired effect.
Think it will be the heat in the cylinders that will be my biggest problem, it's enough that a cylinder is too hot for maybe 20-30 seconds, so there may be a hole in the piston, you can not look at the engine temperature, maybe not on the EGT meter then It sits after the water cooled exhaust pipe. My way of handling it is to use a large seawater cooled intercooler to keep the intake air as cold as possible, I do not know if that's enough.
My effect target is maybe 60-80hp 3000-3600 rpm continuous power and 100-130hp 4000-4500 rpm in short moments.
07-31-2017, 08:27 AM
#32
VNT crap is not suitable for stationary engines due to low eficiency.(design related)
GT20 is best found on 602/605 and 611.
Its not the melting pistons that kill the engine.... neither oil squirters or having a cooler Xor y... its the continuous load ...
Put this simply, a automotive 200hp engine when used in stationary aplication has to be derated to 80hp(guess) otherwise the engine will heat up and colapse everithing will melt , block will warp , gaskets burn, rings will eat the cylinder walls and so on... its not just a question of oil heat and Egt and coolant... is a lot more... the engine has to be studied under load expecially the ring pressure leak. After all it is the ring leak that will determine how long it will last.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Hy mr Smugler
VNT crap is not suitable for stationary engines due to low eficiency.(design related)
GT20 is best found on 602/605 and 611.
Its not the melting pistons that kill the engine.... neither oil squirters or having a cooler Xor y... its the continuous load ...
Put this simply, a automotive 200hp engine when used in stationary aplication has to be derated to 80hp(guess) otherwise the engine will heat up and colapse everithing will melt , block will warp , gaskets burn, rings will eat the cylinder walls and so on... its not just a question of oil heat and Egt and coolant... is a lot more... the engine has to be studied under load expecially the ring pressure leak. After all it is the ring leak that will determine how long it will last.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
07-31-2017, 11:43 PM
#33
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Buy the best turbo you can for your budget (as I said before, maybe try run some calcs to work out whats best) and see how you go, the temp will tell you how well it's handling the load, make sure you have a decent heat exchanger etc
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
08-06-2017, 06:49 PM
#34
(07-31-2017, 08:27 AM)barrote Hy mr Smugler
VNT crap is not suitable for stationary engines due to low eficiency.(design related)
GT20 is best found on 602/605 and 611.
Its not the melting pistons that kill the engine.... neither oil squirters or having a cooler Xor y... its the continuous load ...
Put this simply, a automotive 200hp engine when used in stationary aplication has to be derated to 80hp(guess) otherwise the engine will heat up and colapse everithing will melt , block will warp , gaskets burn, rings will eat the cylinder walls and so on... its not just a question of oil heat and Egt and coolant... is a lot more... the engine has to be studied under load expecially the ring pressure leak. After all it is the ring leak that will determine how long it will last.
Thanks for the turbo tip, VNT goes away looking for a WG turbo instead.
The GT20 would suit my needs only the problem I see is that the attachment to the exhaust pipe is conical which makes the knee production more difficult.
Have looked at the GT2052S, which is also featured on some OM611, it has an exhaust flange that is easier to customize.
Found the page with "all" turbo models again!
http://www.dieselevante.it/turbochargers...am=GT2052S
What I wrote about the thermal and mechanical strength of the engine was a rough generalization and much of what you mentioned falls under mechanical strength.
We'll see what's first of all, make pistons or something else. But i will try this out anyway.
Do not know if I'm stubborn or stupid or maybe both. If I do not test anything , I will never learn something .
Regarding the power of stationary aplication must be dampened by more than half does not match those marine engines I know.
For example:
Mercruiser 1.7 dti 120hp / 4400 rpm Based on Opel 1.7 DTI 110-125hp
Volvo Penta D3 160-190hp Based on Volvo D5 163-184hp
Lombardini ldw 194 jmt 180hp Based on Fiat 1.9 JTD 150hp
VW Marine TDI 150-5, TDI 165-5 Based on VW 2.5 TDI 100-151hp
This post was last modified: 08-06-2017, 07:03 PM by Smuggler.
(07-31-2017, 08:27 AM)barrote Hy mr Smugler
VNT crap is not suitable for stationary engines due to low eficiency.(design related)
GT20 is best found on 602/605 and 611.
Its not the melting pistons that kill the engine.... neither oil squirters or having a cooler Xor y... its the continuous load ...
Put this simply, a automotive 200hp engine when used in stationary aplication has to be derated to 80hp(guess) otherwise the engine will heat up and colapse everithing will melt , block will warp , gaskets burn, rings will eat the cylinder walls and so on... its not just a question of oil heat and Egt and coolant... is a lot more... the engine has to be studied under load expecially the ring pressure leak. After all it is the ring leak that will determine how long it will last.
Thanks for the turbo tip, VNT goes away looking for a WG turbo instead.
The GT20 would suit my needs only the problem I see is that the attachment to the exhaust pipe is conical which makes the knee production more difficult.
Have looked at the GT2052S, which is also featured on some OM611, it has an exhaust flange that is easier to customize.
Found the page with "all" turbo models again!
http://www.dieselevante.it/turbochargers...am=GT2052S
What I wrote about the thermal and mechanical strength of the engine was a rough generalization and much of what you mentioned falls under mechanical strength.
We'll see what's first of all, make pistons or something else. But i will try this out anyway.
Do not know if I'm stubborn or stupid or maybe both. If I do not test anything , I will never learn something .
Regarding the power of stationary aplication must be dampened by more than half does not match those marine engines I know.
For example:
Mercruiser 1.7 dti 120hp / 4400 rpm Based on Opel 1.7 DTI 110-125hp
Volvo Penta D3 160-190hp Based on Volvo D5 163-184hp
Lombardini ldw 194 jmt 180hp Based on Fiat 1.9 JTD 150hp
VW Marine TDI 150-5, TDI 165-5 Based on VW 2.5 TDI 100-151hp
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