OM612/OM647 T1N Holset upgrade
OM612/OM647 T1N Holset upgrade
I started working on a Holset turbo kit for my T1Ns and wanted to get some feedback...I've gone through a few GT2256 units for both of our vans (OM612 and OM647) for various reasons so it's time to get something a little more robust in there...
Here's the hardware side of the equation:
![[Image: 14705661_10154245347868347_8549155966713...e=58953DFE]](https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14705661_10154245347868347_8549155966713970535_n.jpg?oh=9a58d6752da0d793f9ffed2472d6995f&oe=58953DFE)
![[Image: 14681885_10154245347848347_6671018800309...e=58A48EBB]](https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14681885_10154245347848347_6671018800309545092_n.jpg?oh=419b181d61c36b779c6cffb7380aba90&oe=58A48EBB)
![[Image: 14666033_10154245347768347_6060007658634...e=58A55577]](https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14666033_10154245347768347_6060007658634445005_n.jpg?oh=456082132127c073356c77f8873a4823&oe=58A55577)
I'm using the Hx35w to check fitment etc. The choice for turbos is between the Hx30w, Hx35w and Hx40w for T3 flanged units and He200wg and He221w for T25 turbos. I'm currently working on a new flange to adapt the Holset VGT units to this.
This leads me to the turbo control. The 612 uses vacuum and the 647 uses an electronic actuator. I want the turbo control turned off like I did on my Audi, which will allow me to run the stock WG actuators. Obviously this takes away the VNT benefits of the 2256 but it simplifies the system significantly and reduces the cost of the turbo. My tuner is working on getting the turbo control sorted and getting the fuel delivery adjusted. As of right now we've been able to download and start playing with the 647 ECU. the 612 is an issue though so I`m not sure how I'll tackle this yet.
Anyways - any feedback is greatly appreciated. I've always been surprised there's no "performance" support for these engines considering the reputation Merc diesels have for power.. If I manage to get the IMMO off then the engine becomes a good candidate for swaps into various other platforms...
The next step is a compound kit to bring the performance closer to a VNT...
![[Image: 14485100_10154173823303347_1433455011548...e=58ABA835]](https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14485100_10154173823303347_1433455011548228412_n.jpg?oh=28c143b63fdb4a2a617691d61f8571f0&oe=58ABA835)
Folks,
I started working on a Holset turbo kit for my T1Ns and wanted to get some feedback...I've gone through a few GT2256 units for both of our vans (OM612 and OM647) for various reasons so it's time to get something a little more robust in there...
Here's the hardware side of the equation:
I'm using the Hx35w to check fitment etc. The choice for turbos is between the Hx30w, Hx35w and Hx40w for T3 flanged units and He200wg and He221w for T25 turbos. I'm currently working on a new flange to adapt the Holset VGT units to this.
This leads me to the turbo control. The 612 uses vacuum and the 647 uses an electronic actuator. I want the turbo control turned off like I did on my Audi, which will allow me to run the stock WG actuators. Obviously this takes away the VNT benefits of the 2256 but it simplifies the system significantly and reduces the cost of the turbo. My tuner is working on getting the turbo control sorted and getting the fuel delivery adjusted. As of right now we've been able to download and start playing with the 647 ECU. the 612 is an issue though so I`m not sure how I'll tackle this yet.
Anyways - any feedback is greatly appreciated. I've always been surprised there's no "performance" support for these engines considering the reputation Merc diesels have for power.. If I manage to get the IMMO off then the engine becomes a good candidate for swaps into various other platforms...
The next step is a compound kit to bring the performance closer to a VNT...
What is problem with 612 ECU?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
In my opinion this is downgrade, compound yes but that one big ass wastegated turbo is big no-no on engine like this. This is not OM606 which will rev to 6500RPM. How much ponnies do you aim for? Stock 2359V from 320CDI-OM613 will give you 300PS no problem, with billet wheel close to 350 with 80% of torque available as low as 1900RPM. You can forget this right away even with HE221W which even in wildest dreams wont push 300PS. All other turbos are bigger and much lagier. BlackSmoke guys tried HX35 on OM648 if i recall and it was fail, they went compound right away.
What is problem with 612 ECU?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
![[Image: 15941069_10154483278998347_5956329675973...e=58E12EBB]](https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15941069_10154483278998347_5956329675973405127_n.png?oh=1141d63017e809c761f99832eeb75392&oe=58E12EBB)
![[Image: 15871955_10154483279008347_2464808723224...e=59162002]](https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15871955_10154483279008347_2464808723224047457_n.png?oh=b66384cda1cc88146f8fffc96663c966&oe=59162002)
![[Image: 15941311_10154483279003347_9123763145622...e=59134646]](https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15941311_10154483279003347_9123763145622979446_n.png?oh=9d54ac6b2bc6802ef4e1203e1c6eb86b&oe=59134646)
also started working on another compound set from BW
![[Image: 20161226_092302_zpslaamqugd.jpg]](http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd387/EurotrashMotorsports/B7%20TDi/20161226_092302_zpslaamqugd.jpg)
I`m pretty sure it`ll be a compound...nothing wrong with the 612 but the ECU is a pain in the butt to work with...
the stock Sprinters are pushing what - 150hp/240ftlbs...I`m happy to start with 200hp/300ftlbs, which is no issue for the 221
did a few WOT pulls with the 06 Sprinter today for a baseline and downloaded the maps from the 04 and 06 for the tuner to modify in parallel...
also started working on another compound set from BW
I`m pretty sure it`ll be a compound...nothing wrong with the 612 but the ECU is a pain in the butt to work with...
the stock Sprinters are pushing what - 150hp/240ftlbs...I`m happy to start with 200hp/300ftlbs, which is no issue for the 221
(01-10-2017, 03:51 PM)MartinB OMG. 200HP you can get with all original HW...only by remap. What is your real power goal?????
absolutely - there's no doubt there at all...the problem I'm having is actually defining what is reasonable for this motor and the moment you start talking to Sprinter people all hell breaks loose...apparently what I'm trying to do is sacrilegious lol
I'm looking at both hardware and software for this
on the hardware side I want to have a turbo option outside of the OEM circle...I've got T3 conversion flanges and can make T25 ones as well...this needs to stay a work truck so quick spool is essential (hence the 200/211/221 choice). I think the Hx30 would work well or a 200/211 compound with an Hx351w on the top...or the BW compound set although that's fairly hefty on its own
The main requirement here is: bolt on turbo upgrade, stock internals, stock drivetrain (read the transmission needs to survive), affordable
So in terms of power 250-300hp would be the max I'm looking for from a daily driver point of view...I have the ability to dedicate a van to the development so in the long term I'm ok with pushing the power until we start blowing parts up...basically no development's been done for the Sprinter crowd and I run a few of them so I want to play
I think the tuning is my only limiting factor right now...Green Diesel in the US have dealt with the EGR but don't want to discuss power upgrades and every other tuner I talk to is basically lost...I've started working on the maps but I'm relatively new to it so it's taking a while to sort through them...
what do you think is a "safe" power goal for the OM612/647 family?
(01-10-2017, 03:51 PM)MartinB OMG. 200HP you can get with all original HW...only by remap. What is your real power goal?????
absolutely - there's no doubt there at all...the problem I'm having is actually defining what is reasonable for this motor and the moment you start talking to Sprinter people all hell breaks loose...apparently what I'm trying to do is sacrilegious lol
I'm looking at both hardware and software for this
on the hardware side I want to have a turbo option outside of the OEM circle...I've got T3 conversion flanges and can make T25 ones as well...this needs to stay a work truck so quick spool is essential (hence the 200/211/221 choice). I think the Hx30 would work well or a 200/211 compound with an Hx351w on the top...or the BW compound set although that's fairly hefty on its own
The main requirement here is: bolt on turbo upgrade, stock internals, stock drivetrain (read the transmission needs to survive), affordable
So in terms of power 250-300hp would be the max I'm looking for from a daily driver point of view...I have the ability to dedicate a van to the development so in the long term I'm ok with pushing the power until we start blowing parts up...basically no development's been done for the Sprinter crowd and I run a few of them so I want to play
I think the tuning is my only limiting factor right now...Green Diesel in the US have dealt with the EGR but don't want to discuss power upgrades and every other tuner I talk to is basically lost...I've started working on the maps but I'm relatively new to it so it's taking a while to sort through them...
what do you think is a "safe" power goal for the OM612/647 family?
as for the 221w its a great turbo moves a lot of air for its size and will last a long time. i am running one on my OM617 and set the gate to ~16 psi it makes over 10 at wot by~2000 rpm (its hard to tell because it jumps up so fast). i have the 6 cm housing i suspect the 7 might be too large for the 2.7L 612/647 especially considering the lower rpm nature of the CDI engines. im actually surprised this kind of modification is not more common. seeing as fleet operations are always pushing for fewer repairs it makes complete sense to switch to a more industrial service rated turbo like holsets than a more passenger car duty one.
i believe he is looking at the holsets for the increased durability vs the gt turbos in a heavy use environment.
as for the 221w its a great turbo moves a lot of air for its size and will last a long time. i am running one on my OM617 and set the gate to ~16 psi it makes over 10 at wot by~2000 rpm (its hard to tell because it jumps up so fast). i have the 6 cm housing i suspect the 7 might be too large for the 2.7L 612/647 especially considering the lower rpm nature of the CDI engines. im actually surprised this kind of modification is not more common. seeing as fleet operations are always pushing for fewer repairs it makes complete sense to switch to a more industrial service rated turbo like holsets than a more passenger car duty one.
(01-10-2017, 04:12 PM)R-3350 im actually surprised this kind of modification is not more common. seeing as fleet operations are always pushing for fewer repairs it makes complete sense to switch to a more industrial service rated turbo like holsets than a more passenger car duty one.
amen...that's all I`m going to say...
I've got a 221 powering up my 2.0 TDi and I squeezed out 215whp/300ftlbs out of it so it will work well with the 2.7CDI...
I agree on the injectors but it's the tune that's the limiting factor right now...
MartinB - I am not interested in using an OEM turbo...they're expensive and hard to get...I sell Holsets so I've got shelves packed with turbos ready to go...I already asked - what do you think is a good number to aim for with this engine? keeping in mind this is a work horse...
it's well known that engines like Cummins, Powerstroke and Duramax see incredible gains and the market is fairly developed here...not so much on the Sprinter side although the engines are everywhere...
(01-10-2017, 04:12 PM)R-3350 im actually surprised this kind of modification is not more common. seeing as fleet operations are always pushing for fewer repairs it makes complete sense to switch to a more industrial service rated turbo like holsets than a more passenger car duty one.
amen...that's all I`m going to say...
I've got a 221 powering up my 2.0 TDi and I squeezed out 215whp/300ftlbs out of it so it will work well with the 2.7CDI...
I agree on the injectors but it's the tune that's the limiting factor right now...
MartinB - I am not interested in using an OEM turbo...they're expensive and hard to get...I sell Holsets so I've got shelves packed with turbos ready to go...I already asked - what do you think is a good number to aim for with this engine? keeping in mind this is a work horse...
it's well known that engines like Cummins, Powerstroke and Duramax see incredible gains and the market is fairly developed here...not so much on the Sprinter side although the engines are everywhere...
Personally I have not seen damaged turbo on 612-613 engines even on half million km examples.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
You are talking like stock turbos goes flying into pieces every week. Personally I have not seen damaged turbo on 612-613 engines even on half million km examples.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
so yes - on a day to day there's no need to do this...the moment you want to service the truck you're stuck paying big bucks...dealing with Mercedes on this is no fun I`ll tell you that much
no - not flying into pieces...there's two problems with them - price and availability...I've rebuilt a few OM612 engines now and I want to use a new turbo when I do my engine rebuilds...the price I have to pay to rebuild a turbo is close to the price I have to pay for a new Holset...if I wanted to replace it I'm looking at $1000k+ for a new unit...
so yes - on a day to day there's no need to do this...the moment you want to service the truck you're stuck paying big bucks...dealing with Mercedes on this is no fun I`ll tell you that much
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Well different country or what.. here on my planet new CHRA from Mellet costs about 250€/USD and you have pretty much new turbo if housings are not damaged but do what you need to do. Also if you swap you need to remap it otherwise it will fall into limp mode all the time from not meeting desired boost obviously-WG cant boost like VNT down low.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
1. 4 Bar MAP sensor - A0071530028 (or A0101537228) - required to improve the data logging of the OM612 and OM647 engines as the stock sensors are 2.5 Bar and are just about maxed under normal conditions
2. CP3 hpfp - the OM612/OM647 units use a CP1 pump, while the 320CDI and 400CDI engines use the CP3 pump...it flows a lot more fuel and can increase the rail pressure...the pumps can be found used or rebuilt online...new pumps are unfortunately $1k+
3. C30 AMG injectors (last mod probably) - obviously have to be brought in from EU and are pretty pricey...I`m still looking into getting the stock injectors modified instead of buying new ones
4. Turbo - I`m going to start with an He300 and take it from there...the engine should have no issue spooling up an Hx30, He221, He300 etc. - just depends on where the drivability will sit
5. Tune - currently in the works - will update this when finished
quick update...working on this part list:
1. 4 Bar MAP sensor - A0071530028 (or A0101537228) - required to improve the data logging of the OM612 and OM647 engines as the stock sensors are 2.5 Bar and are just about maxed under normal conditions
2. CP3 hpfp - the OM612/OM647 units use a CP1 pump, while the 320CDI and 400CDI engines use the CP3 pump...it flows a lot more fuel and can increase the rail pressure...the pumps can be found used or rebuilt online...new pumps are unfortunately $1k+
3. C30 AMG injectors (last mod probably) - obviously have to be brought in from EU and are pretty pricey...I`m still looking into getting the stock injectors modified instead of buying new ones
4. Turbo - I`m going to start with an He300 and take it from there...the engine should have no issue spooling up an Hx30, He221, He300 etc. - just depends on where the drivability will sit
5. Tune - currently in the works - will update this when finished
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