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Expiremental OM617 build
R-3350 Offline
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#1
Expiremental OM617 build
Hello i don't post a great deal here. however i have been working slowly on a project i have had in mind for a bit. i have a 85 300D w123 that i have been tinkering with for about a year now. my goal is around 300 HP with some reliability. i am aware that the easy way is to go with an OM606 however that has been done before. very few people have taken the 617 to its limit it seems and i enjoy a good challenge. i also enjoy designing my own systems and parts.

So far i have maxed out the stock pump and re-timed the pump to 28* along with reamed and chamfered pre-chambers and increased the boost to ~14 pisg. i then got a new head and aggressively ported it till the port walls were around .150" as verified by ultrasound. the new head is waiting to go on till i can re-cut the valves and seats also need a tiny bit of port geometry smoothing still. all this is along with a HE221W i got and a W115 manifold thats on the way. also trying to find a shop that can calibrate AAZ two stage injectors with DN0SD315's.

the long term plan is to get a compound turbo setup running a HE211W or HE200WG as the HP and either a HX35 or 40 as the LP. i am running a rigged water methanol system from the washer bottle right now and i am intending to replace that with a true high pressure injection system. also looking into getting a set of rods made for the engine but thats gonna cost a great deal so its far down the list. also investigating thermal barrier coating companies about the pistons and the pre-chambers. theres a great deal of other ideas too that i intent to explore. the max rpm capability of the engine is a question i am wondering about. considered buying a junkyard tired engine and pulling the high idle governor from the pump than running it in 500 rpm increases followed by compression tests to find the rapid degradation point or just see when the rods go for a walk. pictures to come as i can host them.
07-26-2016, 06:34 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#2
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i got the turbine housing discharge flange made by a local shop for me. its got a minimal amount of material blocking the exhaust flow and a 3" v-band outlet. kind of ridiculous but every bit less of restriction post turbo helps.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160727_185737_zpswatzu8z9.jpg]" />
i also ceramic coated the exhaust manifold. mind you its not a high quality coating but everything helps, and i dont intend on keeping the EGR manifold for long. looking into using a W115 N/A exhaust manifold to feed a twin scroll housing on the HE221W (TD04HL housings fit the hot side of the 221 and there is a 8.5CM twin entry housing for them.)[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160727_185646_zpsrrflk98u.jpg]" />

it kind of amazes me that the HE221W can flow as much air as it can upwards of 36LBS/m.
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160727_182103_zpsxsc3usc7.jpg]" />
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160727_182126_zpsv99ecl9s.jpg]" />
in other news i am in the process of getting a quote from Pauter for a custom set of connecting rods. not going to need them any time soon but i just wanted to know how much it would be. they make a rod that is almost exactly the same as the 617 but the small end is ~1mm too small. Its for another Mercedes but i cant remember what off the top of my head right now. ill keep posting as more progress and pictures come.
07-27-2016, 06:16 PM
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raysorenson Offline
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#3
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
I applaud your effort. When you say 300hp, are you talking crank or wheel? An HX35 LP probably won't get you either on a 617. Squeezing 250whp past the auto trans with an OM617 would be an accomplishment. Have you seen JTY's build thread?
07-27-2016, 07:24 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#4
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
crank HP as for the trans i am looking into a manual swap its so much more fun to drive than a slush box. as for the  turbo selection the main limiter on the 617 it seems is the god awful breathing habits of the head forcing you to run obscene pressure ratios to get enough air in the cylinders. the stock ports barely flow enough for the stock power. i am hoping to solve this with aggressive porting and good manifolds. however i might have to go with bigger valves but thats its own pile of fun. as i said before this build is not only for more power but its a fun exercise for me. i enjoy working on something challenging. i have seen JTY's build i am also keeping an eye on Robin Eklund and his 617 (search that name on youtube he's the one with the ~450 wheel hp build the Dieselmeken posted) they both have impressive builds and i am hoping to get somewhere near there one day. however this is not a rapid project i don't have the tooling or funding myself to do most of this in any quick manner so its a long term project.
07-27-2016, 07:49 PM
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raysorenson Offline
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#5
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
With the intake and exhaust ports next to each other, thermal expansion of the intake charge will also rob power. If it's possible to coat the exhaust ports with a thermal barrier, fab a good header, keep turbine inlet pressure as low as possible then you'll have the best bet to keep the inlet charge cool and dense.
07-28-2016, 07:41 AM
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raysorenson Offline
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#6
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Testing in uncooled adiabatic diesels has shown that a ceramic layer in the pistons increased BSFC but lost power due to thermal expansion of the intake charge.
07-28-2016, 08:01 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#7
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
one of the goals of this build is to explore ways of increasing the efficiency of the engine. however the intent of the thermal barrier coatings on the piston are to prevent damage from high temperatures. the engine is designed to make stock power and while it can make more it increases the stress on all the parts. hence the idea of new rods and coatings i want this project to last. i am looking into swain tech right now it seems they have some of the best technology right now.
07-28-2016, 12:38 PM
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MFSuper90 Offline
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#8
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
What are you going to do about an IP?
I'm excited to see how this turns out, I've always wanted to do something simliar, but always worked on other projects instead of my daily driver
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         
07-29-2016, 06:11 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#9
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
I am debating on that right now. i would like to keep the MW pump as it is a better design and capable of a significantly higher injection pressure. i am waiting for Dieselmeken to release the 7.5mm elements he has been making for the MW. However he hasn't said exactly what the capabilities of these new elements are yet. So i may have to end up going with an m pump if thats the case ill use an 8mm to help shorten the injection times.

Something that has me curious to try is the AAZ two stage injectors with a larger pump. i have a suspicion that the reason people reported a decrease in low end power but an increase in top end is that at lower rpm the IP doesn't meet the ΔP requirements to trigger the second stage. this only happens at the higher pump rpm which would explain the increase on top too.
07-29-2016, 12:16 PM
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MFSuper90 Offline
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#10
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Phil at jolliff diesel services could whip you up a big MW. But be prepared to be patient if you want to go through him. He does grade A work, but is very busy. Me and Phil have talked about doing a big MW before, but I never wanted to spend the coin to get It done.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         
07-29-2016, 04:13 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#11
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
what kind of elements is he using / planning to use? i was thinking of Dieselmeken because he is designing and making his own elements. however if there is someone local that could do something similar without the expensive shipping that would work too. i was thinking something in the 120-150cc/1k would be what i am aiming for. however the more capacity the elements have the faster its delivered. my idea is to have a shop set the AAZ's for 150 bar on the pilot and 200 bar on the main injection. as it is i think they are set for 230/300 bar also the nozzles in them are no good for the 617. probably use DN0SD315's too the larger pintle should also help to keep the injection events short. i would love if someone found an element in the 10mm range with a very shallow helix angle on the plunger perhaps 180cc max. then you could simulate the rotary pump for the AAZ. the in-line pumps are more durable and can make more fuel however they suffer from longer injection times and difficulty in advancing the timing dynamically. my dream pump would be a 5 cylinder H pump with said 10mm shallow angle elements and a mechanical governor to control both racks.
07-29-2016, 04:35 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#12
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
spent most of today wrestling with the engine. i managed to get the seized nuts off the manifolds to pull the stock turbo after soaking them in ATF mixed with MEK. (this is the best penetrant oil i have ever used it even beats the Boeing stuff i used to have that was banned in most states for toxicity) also i just love the nice residue the EGR leaves behind in everything it touches.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160729_185043_zpsk0hvqgkr.jpg]" />
i also found the source of the slight rattle and drone at some speeds. guess i have no excuse now not to have a 3" DP made. i might even "forget" to re-install the exhaust past the DP for a bit just to see how it sounds with the HE221W and a strait pipe.
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160729_185243_zpsfci2g1vx.jpg]" />
the next step is to mount the new turbo with the w115 manifold. i would like to get the new head on however it still needs some work before its ready. i did get new valve guides and the porting but it needs valve sealing work and a little smoothing.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160729_185432_zpsn52enpp9.jpg]" />[img]<a href=[/img]i think i removed around half a kilo with all the porting. the port walls are quite thick somewhere around 10-13mm.[Image: IMG_20160729_185418_zpsfwizaqtl.jpg]" />
something some people might appreciate is the instrumentation i am currently running. this is the current dash with EGT, oil temp, manifold pressure, and voltage.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160729_185118_zpswpm3vzgn.jpg]" />
i am currently in the process of replacing this one with another i made. i have a box of various aircraft indicator lights from things i have worked on before so i will be mounting those in the center for a few sub systems. (water injection active and stages, trans temp high, and maybe some others) I also have some guarded switches ill be installing for some of the aux systems. [img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160729_185141_zpsaqily5mz.jpg]" />[img]<a href=[/img]
i also managed to get a dual manifold gauge from a P-51 that reads to 100" HG.its new old stock and the serial number indicates it was manufactured in 1944. it is still calibrated i tested it not too long ago. one line will be fed boost the other exhaust drive pressure.[Image: IMG_20160729_185208_zpsk8ld4eyo.jpg]" />
i got the w115 manifold in today. also i needed to replace my engine mounts so i got a new set an cast them full of rubber (PR seal if anyone is familiar with it. its horrible stuff its smell awful and gets everywhere but once cured its amazingly indestructible)[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160729_193107_zpst2z2xyh1.jpg]" />
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2016, 06:35 PM by R-3350.)
07-29-2016, 06:24 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#13
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i have been experimenting lately with designing a resonant tuned intake manifold styled after the w115 manifold but with better flow characteristics. the first step was to establish the resonant frequency of the valve acoustics at desired RPM. i chose to model the intake for 2800-3100 and 4000-4500 as two of the primary tuned harmonics. this should establish better airflow at cruse rpm (~3000 for me) and maximum HP which stock is 4350 but i figure i should be able to push that up to around 4500 with some governor tweaks. modeling the intake is two method approach as i am trying to figure out the Helmholtz resonance of the plenum as one volume and the runner resonance as another. so far i have established an ideal runner length of 18.91" (480.3mm) and a cross sectional area of 1.39"^2 (9.02cm^2). this is all rough estimation, however even if it is a bit off the 3rd and 4th order harmonics i am targeting should fall somewhere in the usable power band. based on these dimensions i started designing a manifold with the main goal being ease of construction and optimal air flow. i have access to a CNC mill so i intend to use it for one part of the manifold however most of it is basic aluminum sheet and tube stock.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: manifold%20complete%201_zpsorkoeclf.png]" />
the core of the manifold is a bar of 6061-T6 16" X 2.5" X 1.25" with a series of bell-mouths into the runners. this is the only part that needs special construction and you could probably get around that with ebay velocity stacks, some plate aluminum, and a tig welder.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: manifold%20bellmouth%201_zpspujvofq0.png]" />
i wont be building this manifold for a bit yet as i just got the w115 manifold on. however sometime in the future ill get around to it. once i finish modeling the airflow dynamics and have a good set of .DXF files i will post them somewhere for anyone who wants them. in other news i am waiting for the last parts to get the down-pipe together and some charge piping before i can get the 300D back on the road. i briefly ran it with nothing from the turbo back and its ridiculous. you can't make out the engine tone over the turbo whine above 3K rpm free revving it. i re-clocked it some after this picture to better situate the outlet and the oil drain.

[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160810_090110_zpseodzftvt.jpg]" />
here's how i adapted the drain line to the block not elegant but it works.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160809_141749_zpsilvp7xxl.jpg]" />
08-17-2016, 03:58 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#14
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i got the new 3" down pipe on today and finished plumbing in everything. then took the car for a test drive. sounds amazing however i noticed a strange hissing/scratching noise at idle when i got back. popped the hood didn't see anything revved the engine a little. promptly the alternator exploded and shorted the battery managed to get it unhooked fast enough to prevent serious damage but now i need to install a new alternator and redo the wiring harness. yay. i have a new AL129X and 1/0 cable coming soon so ill just redo the entire layout might try to get the battery in the trunk.
08-22-2016, 06:41 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#15
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
the car has been doing well with the new turbo. it maxes out at 17 psi right now however it doesn't like to make more than 10 psi below 3000 RPM. i would like to drop that to 15 but as it is i think its leaking drive pressure from the WG due to reducing the WG spring pressure too much. i might try feeding it vacuum with a manual boost controller to feed pressure once the set point is reached. ill have to see if that helps. in other news i picked up a new short block to go with the head i have been doing a lot of work to.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160927_183516_zpst1ritc36.jpg]" />
the head has been ported as far as i am comfortable with for now. the short side radius on the stock ports is atrocious, also the intake runners decline into the valve while the exhaust is almost a direct 90 degree turn. i contemplated reshaping the chambers and valve reliefs to help reduce valve shrouding but without a flow bench and a few spare heads to play with thats a dangerous move.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20160924_165949_zpsiyfjcwrk.jpg]" /> i talked to Geoff at Colt cams about a bigger cam to go with the better head flow. He said they have a few profiles for the OM617 that are good for a little more flow without hurting the low down power, so ill be ordering one as soon as budget allows. he also was interested in creating something more extreme when i mentioned the ported head and the other work i have been doing. so maybe once this car is no longer a daily ill look into going a bit farther. i am currently tearing the short block down to see what needs replacing while also getting some ideas for other things to tinker with. something that interested me was the timing advance mechanism, according to the FSM the early models prior to 1980 have 8 degrees of advance while the later have 7.5. i am considering grinding the stops to allow another 1-2 degrees of advance. this should hopefully help increase the usable power band a bit as even if you tinker with the high idle governor it still falls on its face above 5K.

Sorry for the rambling i genuinely enjoy testing ideas and seeing what sticks. if anyone has had any similar ideas feel free to chip in im game.
09-30-2016, 11:24 PM
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CRD4x4 Offline
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#16
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Nice work you've done! You're doing what a lot of us wish we'd done already and then some!
Have you weighted the benefits of enlarging the holes in each precombustion chamber?
10-01-2016, 09:10 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#17
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i already reshaped the pre-chambers i ended opening them up only about 15-20 thou but i tapered all the openings. i have heard that opening the chambers too far can cause severe nailing so i decided to go easy for now. the tapering should help too, and i intend on getting another set to open much further and see what happens so thats something else to try.
10-01-2016, 10:18 AM
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NZScott Offline
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#18
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Love the porting. The Scandinavians don't bother but I think with the 617 heads anyway it's silly not to given the crap VE.

A guy on a G wagen forum got nice power gains with an NA engine that I'd like to try with another car

1978 300D, 373,000km
OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (awaiting certification to be legal...)

1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km 'new' DD





10-01-2016, 03:20 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#19
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i have been taking dimensions from the engine i am taking apart and i figured i would post some for anyone interested. the rods are 149mm center to center, big end is 55.6mm, small end is 28mm ID in the bushing with the bare rod bore being 31.04mm. the big end width is 31.85mm, the small end is 28mm wide. the big end across the cap is 84.58mm wide with the chamfer into the big end bore 58.8mm, and the beam is 22.8 X 14mm in the center. the rod to stroke ratio works out at 1.611 to 1.

i am waiting for the quote i requested from Pauter to come back. they make a rod for the m121 engine (seeing that in their catalog was the mother of all non-sequitur) which is almost exactly the same except for the small end being 26mm ID. so hopefully they could just modify that design and it wont be too expensive. i am still expecting it to be in the range of 1800 for a set so not cheap, nor will i be getting them any time soon but its good to have the option on the table.
10-03-2016, 10:53 PM
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SurfRodder Offline
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#20
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Interesting...those dimensions are VERY similar to om603 (except .97 3.5L version...only about 145mm length cL to cL) rods...so those m121's could likely be adapted/modified to fit the newer series engines as well...Pauter makes a really good rod though.  I have them in a 4.9L Jeep stroker that I built a few years back.

I'd love to get a set of Mahle Monotherm (forged STEEL) pistons and a set of Pauter Titanium rods...just cannot justify the cost...likely more than the whole car is worth!
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **

S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **

OBK# 62
10-04-2016, 12:24 AM
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MFSuper90 Offline
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#21
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Not the correct mounting flange or orientation I do not believe , but it's cheap.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112037473559
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         
10-09-2016, 07:51 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#22
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
the reason i would want a H pump is the twin control racks one for fuel and one for timing. the MW has no timing advance built in instead it uses the advance in the drive gear which is only 7.5*. theres a good video on dieselmekens youtube on taking a H pump apart and showing the difference.
10-09-2016, 08:57 AM
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NZScott Offline
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#23
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
If you stuck with 26mm gudgeon pins you maybe could get bushings made for the piston bores that reduce the height of the piston and lower the CR instead of getting a thicker custom head gasket. Bit backwards with a smaller rod bore than the piston though.

Other way of doing it is stick with the "NA" pistons. That would be an interesting experiment actually.

Oooh, an A pump. Since I've realised how twitchy superpumps are, I've been wondering if an industrial constant RPM type governor would help with sensitivity...

1978 300D, 373,000km
OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (awaiting certification to be legal...)

1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km 'new' DD





10-09-2016, 05:38 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#24
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
im trying to stick away from too much modification that isn't necessary. as the rod they already have is close and they work off of blank forgings it shouldn't be too hard to increase the small end bore a little. i contacted them a while ago trying to work out the details but they haven't responded yet ill probably call them tomorrow some time.
the constant rpm governor would require the use of a cvt or something similar. also it wouldn't be too friendly to the engine on start as going from a cold engine to the governed rpm (which to get good power would have to be above 3500 rpm on a 617) would hurt it quickly. most constant rpm industrial engines are not designed to be started and stopped very often and the 617 doesn't warm up fully at idle.
10-09-2016, 06:43 PM
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NZScott Offline
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#25
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Woops - meant...like a tractor, your foot controls what RPM the engine is to run at and the governor adjusts the fuel rack accordingly

1978 300D, 373,000km
OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (awaiting certification to be legal...)

1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km 'new' DD





10-10-2016, 01:45 AM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#26
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Neat thread.

Auto Verdi quoted me 300 a copy for custom om617 rods last year. They have a pretty good reputation and use some special super alloy steel forging. They make factory rods for Audi I think. Lots of drag racers here using them.
10-12-2016, 04:14 AM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#27
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
I also have a new he200wg 5cm if you decide to go that route. $450 would take it. Custom exhaust vband plate. It should spool very quickly. The hot side might be a bit small for your power goal, but you could run it more sequential with an external gate and get great low end spool in a compound setup.

I doubt that increasing the rpm limit is going to result in much more power. The bsfc goes down so fast at higher rpm on this motor that it is probably a wash.

I think 150cc is going to be very smoky without about 65psi of boost.

What is your intercooler plan?
10-12-2016, 04:32 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#28
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
im running a HE221W right now if i go for compounds in the future ill probably go away from holset turbos at least for the HP turbo. their turbos tend to be optimized for a wide map combined with fast spool that pushes the compressor efficiency quite far down. with compounds you want turbos that are efficient in a smaller band due to the narrow operating band that each one actually sees.

as for the rpm increase vs BSFC the reduction is not an independent variable. it falls on its face for a few reasons the reduction in VE due to the horrible flow of the head. this combined with the restrictions in the pre-chambers preventing the expansion of the combustion into the chamber fast enough, and the timing mechanism not advancing far enough. i have worked on most of these things already and intend to keep experimenting as i go. the need for high boost to get enough air into the engine is solved with aggressive porting and a better cam. those are two of the things im working on, theres a lot more to be done too that may help get this engine to perform closer to its more modern brothers.

i have a rather large water to air set up im installing later this week the core is 11X6X4.5 so i don't see out growing that one for a while.
10-12-2016, 06:54 AM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#29
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
The exhaust plate you had fabricated looks nearly identical to the one I had made by a guy named Joey Fanguy in Houma, LA. He sells them on ebay. Incidentally the he221 seems to have an identical bolt pattern to the he200wg.
10-12-2016, 08:32 AM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#30
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
(10-12-2016, 06:54 AM)R-3350 Wrote: im running a HE221W right now if i go for compounds in the future ill probably go away from holset turbos at least for the HP turbo. their turbos tend to be optimized for a wide map combined with fast spool that pushes the compressor efficiency quite far down. with compounds you want turbos that are efficient in a smaller band due to the narrow operating band that each one actually sees.

as for the rpm increase vs BSFC the reduction is not an independent variable. it falls on its face for a few reasons the reduction in VE due to the horrible flow of the head. this combined with the restrictions in the pre-chambers preventing the expansion of the combustion into the chamber fast enough, and the timing mechanism not advancing far enough. i have worked on most of these things already and intend to keep experimenting as i go. the need for high boost to get enough air into the engine is solved with aggressive porting and a better cam. those are two of the things im working on, theres a lot more to be done too that may help get this engine to perform closer to its more modern brothers.

i have a rather large water to air set up im installing later this week the core is 11X6X4.5 so i don't see out growing that one for a while.

Yes it is definitely easier to choose turbos that have compressor maps more readily available. The efficiency thing is one reason I chose the hx30 over the 221 for my hp turbo. I chose aN he451 for the lp, which is a bit bigger than an hx40. It maxes out around 80lb/min.

For true compounds yes everything should function in a narrow band of pressure ratio, but in reality the hp is usually undersized for early spool, so it does nearly all of the work until the big turbo spools. So it should spool early and have a wide map. After the big turbo spools, it does most of the work and the little turbo only adds a little bit. So it also needs a nice wide map. The fact that the hp turbo is operating at lower efficiency at higher rpm doesn't really matter much, because it isn't doing much compression work. There is a guy on yellowbullet.com named kjewer1 who runs a drag car with compounds, and has provided a huge amount of detail on how his setup has evolved over time. I am basically trying to emulate that type of performance: early boost off the line, large turbo doing heavy lifting later in rpm range. My driving is in town and spool at 3k rpm is a bit late.

I am running a 606, but spent a bit of time thinking about a 617 first. To run 150cc and afr 17:1 on the 606, I would set the small gate at 65psi. It would have to be even higher for a 2 valve head to achieve similar airflow for 150cc fuel I think. Of course there are many people running 13:1 with smoke and high egt, so that is always an option, but I look at it as cheating :-)

Looks like you have thought things through and have a great build going. The om617 is so common that it it is a shame more people don't rework the heads etc. As you are doing. Post some photos of your intercooler if you can; that is my next step so I am looking for ideas.
10-12-2016, 05:16 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#31
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
the exhaust housing is a visual copy of one i saw in ebay so were probably thinking of the same thing. i have a friend with a tormach pcnc 1100 nearby. i saw that housing on ebay and got the idea to run a band of steel tracing the exhaust housing perimeter with a v-band flange welded on.
as for the compounds im slowly doing research into what i would run. right now im thinking of a TD04HL-19T as the HP and maybe a GTX35 as the LP both flow large amounts of air at lower pressure ratios than the Holsets.
the intercooler is a work in progress once im happy with it ill post up the install photos and what i had to do to make it work. but i can say that im using a CXracing water to air intercooler its 12X11X4.5 with 3" inlet and outlet both on the same side. and im using a 30 row oil cooler as the heat exchanger for the coolant. i also dont have any AC or any other accessories taking up space i removed them a long time ago (i never use AC even on my families new Subaru i occasionally drive, why use it when you have windows).
the AFR im thinking of running is maybe around 15:1 this is lean enough to not smoke too much but doesn't need as much boost to maintain. if you read through JTY's build they discussed the optimal power AFR and Jeemu chimed in saying that they recorded 13:1 as optimal for the Mercedes IDI's also that they smoked light gray at that point and that solid black was around 10:1 or lower.
10-12-2016, 07:42 PM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#32
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Yes I read those AFR threads also. They are insightful. I think those afr numbers reflect the fact that these street motors are rarely run at high power outputs for very long. So high egt's can be tolerated for the short durations of time while the pistons etc soak up the heat.

Over on competition diesel there is a guy named dieselfreak who talks a lot about compounds. Apparently one rough way to size them is to compare inlet diameters. The little one should be 0.707 x the big one, so the big one will have twice the cross sectional area of the little one. Doesn't help with turbine housing sizing, and street compounds are usually a bit less, and you should subtract the hub diameter, but I found it a useful guide.

I think that tdo4l19t is a pretty good replacement for the 617 turbo (is a good hp turbo for compounds). Dougal on 4btswaps has a thread on the 617 that is nice.

Cool about the tormach . I have a cheapo CNC router.

I am seriously considering the air water route, but I think whipplem104 got an a/a setup into a w124 with Ac, so might try it. Tired of blowing boost hoses off, so the Sultzi style intake is attractive also.

Good luck and please keep updating the thread!

Karl
10-15-2016, 09:56 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#33
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i have been making good progress on dissembling, cleaning, and inspecting the new engine. i recently got a 6L ultrasonic cleaner and its fantastic at stripping the years of crud built up on all the parts. [img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161019_230824_zpsmptwtnck.jpg]" />
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161019_224710_zps3ft57whr.jpg]" />[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161019_224545_zpsr9jxdwse.jpg]
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161019_225153_zpsrz3fbppe.jpg]" />
i also finally got the parts to begin installing the water to air intercooler. i still need a few plumbing bits and a water pump but hopefully in the next few weeks it should be working.
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161014_154344_zpsfe6eioub.jpg]" />[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161013_130508_zps9aor6t9f.jpg]" /> one thing i have started working on is examining the timing advance mechanism and determining how to change the limits and the curve.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161019_222030_zpscktjs208.jpg]" />the round pucks of steel are the flyweights these ride on two hardened curved tracks in both the upper and lower housing. as the rotational speed increases the weights force outward rotating the outer housing which is keyed to the pump drive intermediate shaft relative to the lower housing with the chain sprocket. the springs fit into two holes in the housings and are retained by the half barrel pins which in turn are held captive by the vacuum pump cam plate. inside the springs are a set of rods these are the limit stops i removed the springs to compare the travel limits with and without the pins installed the housing can accommodate another .125" of rotational travel without contacting anything. i am still working out the pin length vs degrees of advance once i know this ill try to see if i can get it to around 10* total advance. the next step is to measure the spring rate and see if i can find something the same dimensions with a slightly lower rate to increase the timing advance rate.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161019_222636_zpshwuh9ndo.jpg]" />
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2016, 09:39 PM by R-3350.)
10-20-2016, 09:33 PM
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NZScott Offline
HX30W 73/44mm
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#34
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
I remember seeing on a forum somebody ground down the "stops" so it would advance more, memory a bit hazy though Tongue

Really like this build...

1978 300D, 373,000km
OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (awaiting certification to be legal...)

1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km 'new' DD





10-21-2016, 12:34 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#35
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i have been having an issue lately with excessive smoking at idle. i did a valve adjustment and re tested the injectors to make sure they were not dripping also changed the glow plugs and inspected the pre-chambers. while i had the plugs out and the injectors i noticed that #1 seemed slightly wet with oil this combined with some slight residual pressure in the coolant expansion tank after sitting for a day confirmed my thoughts of a failed head gasket. it has been smoking for a while and getting steadily worse so i finally decided to pull the head and swap in the new head thats been ported along with the new cam. while i was pulling the head bolts i noticed a few were wet with oil on the threads but dry by the shank two were also covered in soot.[Image: IMG_20161117_170310_zpsuv0jecb4.jpg]
[Image: IMG_20161118_135936_zpsh7cky3q6.jpg]
you can see there where it failed the #3 and 4 also had similar failures just not as bad.
[Image: IMG_20161118_140251_zpsb4apiluw.jpg]
the pistons are pristine with no visible erosion or anything. the bores are great too ~.004" wear step with cross hatching still clearly visible. i still need to surface the ported head and have a three angle valve job done. i have been holding off of doing that work until right before i put it on so as to limit the possibility of damage in storage or transport. while i had the old head off i set it next to the new ported one to show the difference. its quite dramatic especially [Image: IMG_20161119_131357_zps6r7klngn.jpg]
im also considering swapping in a new compressor wheel in the HE221W. [Image: IMG_20161119_134902_zpsz3envjov.jpg]
dimensions are 189mm inducer and 258mm exducer. this plus some slightly larger valves should help it breathe.
[Image: IMG_20161119_135251_zpsmjzsfz0j.jpg]
but seriously i should have the new head on and running before too long. i already have the new gasket and bolts all i need to do is get the machine work done and spend a weekend working. ill be interested to see how much of a difference it will make in power without any fueling changes.
11-19-2016, 04:15 PM
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TKMad Offline
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#36
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Very cool build! I'm looking forward to your results too.
11-21-2016, 04:11 PM
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NZScott Offline
HX30W 73/44mm
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#37
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
That compressor wheel off an APU or something ha

Ever thought of selling ported 617 heads?

1978 300D, 373,000km
OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (awaiting certification to be legal...)

1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km 'new' DD





11-21-2016, 09:05 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#38
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
lol its actually a centrifugal supercharger impeller for a R-3350-23 i believe or it could be a -34 not entirely sure. it ate some fod so its scrap same for the valves the intake is 79mm across and the exhaust is 65. i also have a piston and jug assy(6.125" bore) all from working on a few old planes before.

as for the heads if i were gonna do that i would need to build some kind of basic flow bench and get some better tooling for porting. i do have the head that came off to test on so maybe i could be talked into it. there would also be the issue of shipping a cast iron head.
most of all the tinkering i am doing is just for my own entertainment. i don't seriously believe that i can get that much out of the 617. it just doesn't have the air flow capability to match the 60X 4 valve engines even with the porting and cam. that being said i actually enjoy doing things that pose more of a challenge. the lack of any bolt on solutions is fun it forces you to adapt other things and learn much more in the process. in the long run i am planning to turn the 300d into some kind of franken build. who knows where it will end up but i will never be entirely done tinkering thats for certain.
11-21-2016, 09:30 PM
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NZScott Offline
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#39
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Ahaa. Ever heard of the Flying Millyard? Sounds like you could get enough bits together...

Just curious, I really like that porting job and want to do a similar thing to my spare engine, whether I ever get time to is another thing though. People seem to write these engines off but with some heafty tinkering you might be able to break the 500hp barrier. 400hp with stock rods is apparently possible...

1978 300D, 373,000km
OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (awaiting certification to be legal...)

1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km 'new' DD





11-22-2016, 01:07 AM
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MFSuper90 Offline
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Posts: 1,533
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Location: MOV, Ohio
#40
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
A Big IP is a must for HP in these mercs.
but it is a big coin item, and people like me are too tight to spend the money.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         
11-24-2016, 10:35 AM
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R-3350 Offline
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#41
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
of course, im not planning on this being a cheap build quite the opposite. if i wanted cheap easy power i would just drop in a chevy 350. i bet someone has made mounts for one to go in a w123 and you cant deny that engine has some of the best aftermarket ever. but that defeats the fun of engineering everything from the ground up, which is what i enjoy. its not for everyone thats for certain but the satisfaction of the finished build is what im after. which is kinda funny because ill never be done with this thing. theres always something else to be done and im not short on weird ideas i would like to try if i ever had the money. as a related question does anyone know if the M104 and OM606 have similar head bolt patterns? because if so you might be able with custom rods and some sleeving make an OM120 v12 diesel. now that would be something fun to drop in a w123.
11-24-2016, 12:01 PM
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Evenglass Offline
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#42
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Looking to port and possibly polish my om617a head. Any advice on this? Did you see a difference after the port job? Any advice before I dive in? I've already have an 8mm M pump mounted, Hx30w turbo at 20psi (will be 30psi soon) and a TMIC.
12-18-2016, 11:01 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#43
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
i just recently got the car running again. as with all projects like this it became the death of a thousand paper cuts. i kept finding i needed another part or was missing something. the real kicker was i have multiples of almost every gasket on the engine as spares but i didn't have a timing chain tensioner gasket and it took a week to get one. the new head looked great after i got the modded pre-chambers in and the valves lapped and installed (new bronze guides valve seals rotocaps ect ect).[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161208_153523_zpsu19inb2c.jpg]" />
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161209_141529_zpsk0xnssr1.jpg]" />[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161209_144741_zpsaghyqto0.jpg]" />


as for the car now, it has made a significant difference in its personality. all of a sudden the engine likes to rev before i had to give it a good bit of pedal in neutral to get it to rev fast. now about 1/2" of pedal makes it jump right to 2000. i haven't driven it enough to make any concrete observations on spool, egt, and off boost response. however i can say all are better.

the head porting was something i did a while ago while i still had access to the NDT equipment at the airport i was working at. i used an ultrasound inspection probe to gauge the port wall thickness. in some places it was over 1/2". i started by opening the throat of the ports to the edge of the gasket hole while also reducing the center divider wall to around .125" then i raised the roof of the port as much as possible to decrease the short side angle. i also opened the valve throat to around 87% of the valve face diameter while tear drop profiling the valve guide boss (theres not much there to profile but every little bit helps). finally i increased the short side radius as much as i could. all of this was interspersed with ultrasound inspections to prevent breaking through the port walls, the thinnest i went was .125"

i also ported the manifolds and turbo housings to match the ports on the head and optimize flow. the exhaust in particular needed a lot of attention as the stock egr manifold is not good it has lots of large nodules the interrupt flow. in particular the #1 port is very bad.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161213_210631_zpsubeakhil.jpg]" />[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161212_201956_zps7kxyk9w8.jpg]" />
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161212_201928_zpsxvfya8gm.jpg]" />
something i did while i was waiting for the tensioner gasket was to look at the coolant flow paths and how i could optimize it to help keep the head cooler. they can crack at higher output due to the inability of cast iron to dissipate heat like aluminum can. i noticed the stock thermostat housing half that bolts to the head is the outlet from the head and there are a lot of sharp corners in the flow path and plenty of excess material to remove to help it flow better. you cant see what i did as its not easy to get a shot of the work but if you get a chance to examine the flow path it becomes obvious what to do.[img]<a href=[/img][Image: IMG_20161212_204330_zpsvexqrz3p.jpg]" />
im also looking into removing the threaded plug at the back of the head to fit a hose to. then run a feed from that through a small aux radiator to an electric pump and back into the front most port on the side of the head. this should help keep the head cool during protracted high power output.


one final not to anyone interested in porting. its at your own risk. it would be quite easy to wreck a head by grinding too far and it's not going to get any easier to find good heads as time goes on. that being said if you are willing to take the risk and accept the responsibility go for it. it can really help these asthmatic engines behave more like a proper German engineered piece of machinery.
12-19-2016, 10:29 PM
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DiseaselWeasel Offline
Holset
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Posts: 420
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Location: German SSR of EUSSR
#44
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Hi!

I just put a bypass into the interior heater circuit. About 8mm. Not a whole lot, but enough to let coolant circulate around cyl. 5&6 (OM603). The block & head are now at a constant temperature from cyl. 1 to 6 (measured with IR thermometer). Before 5 & 6 had always been at a higher temperature.
____________________________________

'88 300CD Turbo Coupé - OM603
12-26-2016, 04:09 AM
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R-3350 Offline
Dreaming of compounds
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Location: Western NC USA
#45
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
its been a while since i have given any updates on the project. i haven't made much progress on the drive train side of the car lately as i am waiting on my pump to get back from dieselmeken. as for the rest of the car i have been doing a lot of modifications to the styling and repairing the inevitable rust i found at the same time. i found a great deal of rust on the passenger side behind the bumper cladding after i removed it i also found extensive sheet metal damage from an accident a long time ago that had been shoddily repaired so i took a long time welding and hammering out the entire rear of the car to get it right before re-spraying it. i also did a compression test and found the current engine is ok for a while yet which is partially why im putting off building the next one till i have more time and money to spare.

[Image: IMG_20170217_162328_zps948l5cis.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20170316_171827_zpse8anmq9s.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20170316_183512_zpskz5ztuaf.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20170322_010513_zpspumz0n9d.jpg]

once i had finished the repair i also took the time to mount a w115 bumper and a set of w116 rear over riders as they both fit easily with little modification.

[Image: IMG_20170413_204602_zpsh4cbpjb6.jpg]

some other little things i have been working on are changing the interior lights to all led and updating the fixtures.
[Image: IMG_20170523_191701_zpsbt6cicn3.jpg]

adding a new hood ornament also from a w115 along with the matching front bumper im still looking for a set of w116 over-riders to match the rear however they are hard to find in decent condition

[Image: IMG_20170203_130342_zps0q1w5bci.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20170220_150238_zpsspuwo60s.jpg]

on the engine side of things im working on building a new manifold out of Inconel 625 to feed the set of compounds ill be running in the future i got a pile of plate and filler wire for tig welding the tubes just haven't had a chance to get around to it as work has swamped me for the past few months.
[Image: IMG_20170111_145334_zpsvaylxuoi.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20170106_153108_zpshqt2pwns.jpg]

to help make the car les deadly once i get the engine sorted out i got a set of s600 front calipers that ill be fitting once i go to larger front wheels the rotors are 320mmX30mm. i will be fabbing new spindle caliper mounts and tie rod mounting systems to both allow me to mount these beasts up and eliminate bump steer.[Image: IMG_20170227_164501_zpslpn1upge.jpg]

and finally the new engine for the car has been under the knife for a while receiving extensive modifications to the block and head. ill also be getting a set of custom forged rods from Pauter soon and a new custom cam that i am prototyping along with a full valve train upgrade (if it works i may end up selling it as a package along side head porting to anyone interested in pushing a 617 to 606 territory) i am working on a new dash system to replace the current second gen one im running im looking at going fully holographic heads up projection using an arduino based data logging system.

[Image: IMG_20170502_190058_zpstvmexsxg.jpg][Image: IMG_20170502_184912_zpssbqono88.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20170213_125651_zpsjw0tyeyj.jpg]
06-08-2017, 10:46 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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Posts: 182
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Location: Western NC USA
#46
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
here are the two sides of the w116 over-riders as they are now
[Image: IMG_20170609_093126_zpsiykaym0a.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20170609_093137_zpsv3zgwxkv.jpg]
06-09-2017, 10:51 PM
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R-3350 Offline
Dreaming of compounds
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Posts: 182
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Location: Western NC USA
#47
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
Its been a while since i posted, but life has been busy lately so i haven't had much time to get a lot done on my car. got the 8mm Dieselmeken M pump in along with a carter P4601HP fuel pump and a much larger fuel filter to feed the beast. the M pump is set to 175cc and 5200rpm full load with full fuel cut probably somewhere around 6500-7500 rpm. im using the external alda to limit the output to somewhere around 120cc as thats as much as i can burn right now with the he221w set to 30psi. working on building the new exhaust manifold and plumbing to get a second turbo in as a set of compounds. it will be a while till thats done though as the manifold is going to be slow to make. im using some inconel 625 sheet i got to roll tubes, seam weld them and then pie cut and weld to get curves. once thats done i gotta finally decide what the LP turbo is going to be as there are at least 3 im considering right now. theres a lot more ideas i have been toying with in my head to test on this car but im limited in time and money right now so well see if i ever get around to them. all that being said the car is a blast to drive now it will slam you into the seat from a stop and i have broken the rear lose at 50 mph hitting the kick-down switch.
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
10-27-2017, 07:59 AM
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atypicalguy Offline
Holset
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Joined: Oct 2013
Location: LA
#48
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
(10-27-2017, 07:59 AM)R-3350 Wrote: Its been a while since i posted, but life has been busy lately so i haven't had much time to get a lot done on my car. got the 8mm Dieselmeken M pump in along with a carter P4601HP fuel pump and a much larger fuel filter to feed the beast. the M pump is set to 175cc and 5200rpm full load with full fuel cut probably somewhere around 6500-7500 rpm. im using the external alda to limit the output to somewhere around 120cc as thats as much as i can burn right now with the he221w set to 30psi. working on building the new exhaust manifold and plumbing to get a second turbo in as a set of compounds. it will be a while till thats done though as the manifold is going to be slow to make. im using some inconel 625 sheet i got to roll tubes, seam weld them and then pie cut and weld to get curves. once thats done i gotta finally decide what the LP turbo is going to be as there are at least 3 im considering right now. theres a lot more ideas i have been toying with in my head to test on this car but im limited in time and money right now so well see if i ever get around to them. all that being said the car is a blast to drive now it will slam you into the seat from a stop and i have broken the rear lose at 50 mph hitting the kick-down switch.

Bravo!
10-29-2017, 08:54 PM
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atypicalguy Offline
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#49
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
(10-27-2017, 07:59 AM)R-3350 Wrote: Its been a while since i posted, but life has been busy lately so i haven't had much time to get a lot done on my car. got the 8mm Dieselmeken M pump in along with a carter P4601HP fuel pump and a much larger fuel filter to feed the beast. the M pump is set to 175cc and 5200rpm full load with full fuel cut probably somewhere around 6500-7500 rpm. im using the external alda to limit the output to somewhere around 120cc as thats as much as i can burn right now with the he221w set to 30psi. working on building the new exhaust manifold and plumbing to get a second turbo in as a set of compounds. it will be a while till thats done though as the manifold is going to be slow to make. im using some inconel 625 sheet i got to roll tubes, seam weld them and then pie cut and weld to get curves. once thats done i gotta finally decide what the LP turbo is going to be as there are at least 3 im considering right now. theres a lot more ideas i have been toying with in my head to test on this car but im limited in time and money right now so well see if i ever get around to them. all that being said the car is a blast to drive now it will slam you into the seat from a stop and i have broken the rear lose at 50 mph hitting the kick-down switch.

I am guessing your smoke factor and egt are a bit excessive with that turbo at 120cc. What sort of afr and air mass are you planning? And how are your intake temps with the current cooler setup?
11-16-2017, 09:43 PM
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R-3350 Offline
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#50
RE: Expiremental OM617 build
yes it can get a bit toasty and smokey if i stay in the throttle all the way that being said its not like it turns the sky black behind me its mostly a medium gray haze and EGT will hit 1400 or so in about 10 seconds of wide open. or course im doing over 80-90 at that point so i usually let out before then.

to help control the new pump one of the first things i did was make a new throttle linkage cam plate. the track that the plastic roller rides in defines the throttle input to pump lever actuation ratio so i made one that is a non linear reduction for the first third of travel to make it more street friendly. as for the rest one of the things dieselmeken did to get the governor to not pull any fuel till 5200rpm was extend the throttle lever travel arc a good deal. from the idle stop to the max load stop on the pump is about 4.5-5" on the actuation rod so i have plenty of resolution to control temps and smoke with my foot.

the intercooler i have is good at a PR of 3:1 my iat is usually around 120-140*F while turbo discharge temp is over 300*F the only issue is that the bosch cobra pump im running is not enough flow or i need to re-plumb the system for less restriction as it starts to heat soak before long.

long term im sizing the compounds to flow around 50-60 LBS/M at a PR of 4-6 depending on how the next few stages of head porting go along with the new cam, valves ,and springs. as for AFR im perfectly ok for running peak power at 15:1 or so the goal is to be able to sustain an output of 250HP or more semi indefinitely. peak power is another thing all together and with few exceptions doesn't need to be sustainable for a long time. but as with any long project goals change as the scope evolves. so im still not sure what it will end up being. i recently picked up another project too so my time is somewhat split between it and my 300d daily.
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
11-16-2017, 11:17 PM
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