rebuilt OM617 NA - wont start!
rebuilt OM617 NA - wont start!
I have rebuilt this motor with new bearings, liners and pistons, timing chain.
It has never sounded like firing. It did 'run' for a second at a time when given a spray of 'Start ya Bastard' (what it says on the can).
So far I have established that
- the glow plugs are glowing.
- there is compression (compression tester)
- the injectors work adequately (diesel mechanic)
- fuel is reaching the injectors
- the drip-timing method on pump output 1 yeilds only a steady stream (not a drop per second) when the crank is turned to 24deg BTDC.
The relationship between crank, timing element on inj pump, and camshaft is what I am checking now.
So far I have the notches lined up on the camshaft sprocket, with the cyl 1 cam lobes pointing upwards-ish, when the crank is on 0deg position. This seems logical to me, I assume this is correct otherwise the motor would not have run at all...
I am not understanding what my manuals say for installing the big cylindrical timing element/inj pump drive. I am not sure what to look for when I remove the inj pump this weekend.
Can anybody shed any light on this please? How can I establish if the pump is installed correctly?
Thanks
Adrian
I have asked this question on another (G-wagen) forum too, but so far no replies, so please bear with me.
I have rebuilt this motor with new bearings, liners and pistons, timing chain.
It has never sounded like firing. It did 'run' for a second at a time when given a spray of 'Start ya Bastard' (what it says on the can).
So far I have established that
- the glow plugs are glowing.
- there is compression (compression tester)
- the injectors work adequately (diesel mechanic)
- fuel is reaching the injectors
- the drip-timing method on pump output 1 yeilds only a steady stream (not a drop per second) when the crank is turned to 24deg BTDC.
The relationship between crank, timing element on inj pump, and camshaft is what I am checking now.
So far I have the notches lined up on the camshaft sprocket, with the cyl 1 cam lobes pointing upwards-ish, when the crank is on 0deg position. This seems logical to me, I assume this is correct otherwise the motor would not have run at all...
I am not understanding what my manuals say for installing the big cylindrical timing element/inj pump drive. I am not sure what to look for when I remove the inj pump this weekend.
Can anybody shed any light on this please? How can I establish if the pump is installed correctly?
Thanks
Adrian
To find out yourcurrent timing turn the engine forward from 24 BTDC with the drip tool installed until the flow turns into 1 drip per second (you need to pump the primer pump pretty hard for this).Make sure you are not injecting in the exhaust stroke(cam lobe on no1 cyl must be pointing UPWARDS)
the crank is to be 24º BTDC and pump with the marks aligned... then u drip as petar said 1 drom a minute and the crank must be somewhere between 18 and 24 otherwise it wont start , then u can tune by drip at 22º or hearing or timing light at 18.5.
any method works , but seting the crank at OT is rather odd.
good luck
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
whatch the installation procedure...
the crank is to be 24º BTDC and pump with the marks aligned... then u drip as petar said 1 drom a minute and the crank must be somewhere between 18 and 24 otherwise it wont start , then u can tune by drip at 22º or hearing or timing light at 18.5.
any method works , but seting the crank at OT is rather odd.
good luck
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
then u turn the engine to 24º BTDC at the right time, u know what i mean , not 336º btdc
Intall the pump in the engine , pre tight the 3 bolts off the pump housing.
install the drip tool, add fuel and rotate the pump housing to the side were u can count 1 drop minute.
That should be enough to have a good set engine.
if u have good hearing or a timing light u can skip the drip step.
this engine rum from 10º to 40º so if the pump is in the right engine stroke and there´s nothing wrong with it it will fire.
good luck.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
the pump uses a woodroof key to hold the 57 teeth gear in the right position then there is a double tooth that shoud be aligned with a mark in the pump housing. this is pre installation of the pump.
then u turn the engine to 24º BTDC at the right time, u know what i mean , not 336º btdc
Intall the pump in the engine , pre tight the 3 bolts off the pump housing.
install the drip tool, add fuel and rotate the pump housing to the side were u can count 1 drop minute.
That should be enough to have a good set engine.
if u have good hearing or a timing light u can skip the drip step.
this engine rum from 10º to 40º so if the pump is in the right engine stroke and there´s nothing wrong with it it will fire.
good luck.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
On my pump I did not notice the mark as pointed out by your blue pen, but I will look more closely tonight.
So am I right in saying that the injection timing device that is between the inj pump and the timing chain can sit at any angle relative to the crank?
And am I right in saying that the inj pump gets installed, as per your description, when the crank is at 0 deg TDC?
(then the drip timing at 24deg BTDC of course)
Thanks!
Aha!
On my pump I did not notice the mark as pointed out by your blue pen, but I will look more closely tonight.
So am I right in saying that the injection timing device that is between the inj pump and the timing chain can sit at any angle relative to the crank?
And am I right in saying that the inj pump gets installed, as per your description, when the crank is at 0 deg TDC?
(then the drip timing at 24deg BTDC of course)
Thanks!
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
About to do the same to my engine - I set crank to 25 BTDC and installed the pump in the most retarded (away from engine) position, hope she starts and can fine tune from there
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
The guru has spoken ;-)
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
. at the shop we do this 20 times a week , imagine if every man in there used a diff technique, most engines would just start bad , or have to be dissassembled just cause u have a missing tooth ..... time is money
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
come on!!! not guru , is just like this , what u want to do ,is a phisicall thing .
at the shop we do this 20 times a week , imagine if every man in there used a diff technique, most engines would just start bad , or have to be dissassembled just cause u have a missing tooth ..... time is money
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Still no start! I will redo the bleeding just in case that is the issue, (when the starter motor is working again of course...)
Thanks for the instructions.
OK, I have assembled the pump as described above. (24deg BTDC) done the drip timing - seems to drip as expected.
Still no start! I will redo the bleeding just in case that is the issue, (when the starter motor is working again of course...)
Thanks for the instructions.
once i installed a pump in a 605 after having reving back the engine and , did not killed the stretch /tension on the chain , and it started very bad... when we did the light gun test it was running at 35º atdc. usually is 18º . so had to redue the job , just that another afternoon lost.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
check the right stroke, most often people mix the strokes and then is a nightmare.
once i installed a pump in a 605 after having reving back the engine and , did not killed the stretch /tension on the chain , and it started very bad... when we did the light gun test it was running at 35º atdc. usually is 18º . so had to redue the job , just that another afternoon lost.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
To summarize:
the glow plugs are glowing
there is compression
the injectors work adequately
fuel is reaching the injectors
the drip-timing method on pump output 1 yeilds a drop per second when the crank is turned to 24deg BTDC (and cyl 1 camshaft lobes pointing upwards-ish).
The engine started easily before - and I have done nothing with the inj pump. It will run for a split second on ether spray. Apart from checking everything again, I do not know where else to look! Any ideas please?
Anything I have missed?
Still no joy.
To summarize:
the glow plugs are glowing
there is compression
the injectors work adequately
fuel is reaching the injectors
the drip-timing method on pump output 1 yeilds a drop per second when the crank is turned to 24deg BTDC (and cyl 1 camshaft lobes pointing upwards-ish).
The engine started easily before - and I have done nothing with the inj pump. It will run for a split second on ether spray. Apart from checking everything again, I do not know where else to look! Any ideas please?
Anything I have missed?
have you bled the air out of the injection lines?
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Do you get any smoke?
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Smoke? Not from cranking, no. When it 'took' on the ether I didnt notice any smoke just smells.
I tried removing the shutoff vacuum line just in case. There is a manual shutoff lever on the side of the pump which is spring loaded in the up position. It moves freely through its stroke and returns - I assume this is normal.
All I can think of at this stage is to revisit the start-of-injection (drip timing) - setting the pump position in its slots.
Thanks for your response.
Adrian
Dunno what happened with the repeat post there.
Smoke? Not from cranking, no. When it 'took' on the ether I didnt notice any smoke just smells.
I tried removing the shutoff vacuum line just in case. There is a manual shutoff lever on the side of the pump which is spring loaded in the up position. It moves freely through its stroke and returns - I assume this is normal.
All I can think of at this stage is to revisit the start-of-injection (drip timing) - setting the pump position in its slots.
Thanks for your response.
Adrian
Yes, you should see some smoke of some description if your pump is in the right region. I just got my engine going this morning using barrote's instructions above (ignore my post) and it smoked and eventually coughed into life. Never did any drip timing..so seems you have something off
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Yup if that lever is up it's ok - it goes down when there's the vacuum sent to it
Yes, you should see some smoke of some description if your pump is in the right region. I just got my engine going this morning using barrote's instructions above (ignore my post) and it smoked and eventually coughed into life. Never did any drip timing..so seems you have something off
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
I think you are not getting any fuel in, it would do some smoke even if that pump injected at completely wrong stroke.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Ether that or timing is completely wacked. Did you lock the proper tooth in the window on the pump?
atypicalguy
04-22-2016, 06:33 AM #23If it is fuel, you should be able to keep it going for 20-30 seconds just using little tiny puffs of ether to the intake.
Ether that or timing is completely wacked. Did you lock the proper tooth in the window on the pump?
In the meantime I damaged a delivery valve holder - mine has the 33T spline - so I need to replace that before further troubleshooting...
Thanks for your responses.
Guys there is something strange going on here, I found the timing of the inj pump-to-crank was way off - despite having set it accurately before! And getting a good drip.
In the meantime I damaged a delivery valve holder - mine has the 33T spline - so I need to replace that before further troubleshooting...
Thanks for your responses.
(04-25-2016, 07:43 AM)Dusty-G Guys there is something strange going on here, I found the timing of the inj pump-to-crank was way off - despite having set it accurately before! And getting a good drip.
In the meantime I damaged a delivery valve holder - mine has the 33T spline - so I need to replace that before further troubleshooting...
Thanks for your responses.
Thanks to a fellow Gwagen enthusiast I have replaced the delivery valve holder, and then the engine started first time!
So the initial problem was almost certainly the injection pump-to-engine timing being out...
Thanks all for your assistance and tips, I really appreciate the help.
Regards
Adrian
(04-25-2016, 07:43 AM)Dusty-G Guys there is something strange going on here, I found the timing of the inj pump-to-crank was way off - despite having set it accurately before! And getting a good drip.
In the meantime I damaged a delivery valve holder - mine has the 33T spline - so I need to replace that before further troubleshooting...
Thanks for your responses.
Thanks to a fellow Gwagen enthusiast I have replaced the delivery valve holder, and then the engine started first time!
So the initial problem was almost certainly the injection pump-to-engine timing being out...
Thanks all for your assistance and tips, I really appreciate the help.
Regards
Adrian
1 Guest(s)
1 Guest(s)