which pump
which pump
Could an expert please clarify the pros/cons of the pump options for OM606
1. Standard electronic pump (6mm elements?)
2. Standard mechanical pump (5 / 5.5mm elements?)
3. Upgraded mechanical pump (7.5mm elements)
I'm sure i've read this all here somewhere, but now i come to check my facts i can't find it.
Could an expert please clarify the pros/cons of the pump options for OM606
1. Standard electronic pump (6mm elements?)
2. Standard mechanical pump (5 / 5.5mm elements?)
3. Upgraded mechanical pump (7.5mm elements)
Same for M EDC not all came with 6 mil!
But yes most 606.96X have the M EDC with 6 mil.
All pumps can be fitted with 6 ,7, 7.5 or 8 mil its the way the pump is build that determines the hp.
For more clarifications PM
Regards?
FD,
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Well not all 606's have the M EDC this just to start with!
Same for M EDC not all came with 6 mil!
But yes most 606.96X have the M EDC with 6 mil.
All pumps can be fitted with 6 ,7, 7.5 or 8 mil its the way the pump is build that determines the hp.
For more clarifications PM
Regards?
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
The M EDC (electronic) can be made to give 18/20mm wich gives 140cc or so rack and the rest is up to the ECU tunner to build a map for max rack wich can be done but it takes big and black bals to achieve , and then u have the RPM limit wich i heard around is a bit dificult to overcome, well people claim they have done it !!! i never seen.
The cost is almost the same , maybe a couple of euros cheaper cause u dont need a external ALDA, but u have to spend a lot more to map the ECU correctly.
Advantages well can´t see none having the electronic device at least at the moment , unless u are 60 or more and u just like to drive at 250km/h in the highway with your W210.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
If u install a mech and if it is the right one , u can benefit of 22mm of rack wich in a 7.5mil element gives 165/170cc
The M EDC (electronic) can be made to give 18/20mm wich gives 140cc or so rack and the rest is up to the ECU tunner to build a map for max rack wich can be done but it takes big and black bals to achieve , and then u have the RPM limit wich i heard around is a bit dificult to overcome, well people claim they have done it !!! i never seen.
The cost is almost the same , maybe a couple of euros cheaper cause u dont need a external ALDA, but u have to spend a lot more to map the ECU correctly.
Advantages well can´t see none having the electronic device at least at the moment , unless u are 60 or more and u just like to drive at 250km/h in the highway with your W210.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Otherwise we would all be stuck spending fortunes to get anywhere tuning these engines. By trial and error.
Too add a little to what has been mentioned from my own research.
Depending on your end goal and expertise in mechanics and electrics.
Electric pumps are ideal to get up to 450-500hp with 8mm elements and no further changed are required (plug and play) other than cooling and turbo changes.
Mechanical are a little more costl, will give higher outputs due to extra rack travel. But will need a fuel shut off and throttle fitted and a separate gearbox controller if not going manual.
Mechanical also requires you get a new mech pump.
Cost is very similar after you have paid for an ecu or donor mech pump .
Mechanical requires you still use the ecu to keep your clocks working.
So in short what are your power goals, your budget, is it a conversion or original engine and car.
I wouldn't call myself an expert but barrote has been around longer than me and contributed much more, I think anyone should appreciate when someone gives any advice.
Otherwise we would all be stuck spending fortunes to get anywhere tuning these engines. By trial and error.
Too add a little to what has been mentioned from my own research.
Depending on your end goal and expertise in mechanics and electrics.
Electric pumps are ideal to get up to 450-500hp with 8mm elements and no further changed are required (plug and play) other than cooling and turbo changes.
Mechanical are a little more costl, will give higher outputs due to extra rack travel. But will need a fuel shut off and throttle fitted and a separate gearbox controller if not going manual.
Mechanical also requires you get a new mech pump.
Cost is very similar after you have paid for an ecu or donor mech pump .
Mechanical requires you still use the ecu to keep your clocks working.
So in short what are your power goals, your budget, is it a conversion or original engine and car.
For myself, i am not looking for massive power gains, so for me the question was i guess "What are the advantages and disadvantages of an Electric pump vs mechanical pump for standard power levels" but i left the question a little more open as it could also be interesting to others which can be tuned higher.
I have read that E pumps give better economy / smoothness in driving for instance, i wanted to check this.
Of course if your donor already came with an E pump and ECU, theres no extra expense to buy, and little cost to de-immo it.
Thank you Sean for the coherent response.
For myself, i am not looking for massive power gains, so for me the question was i guess "What are the advantages and disadvantages of an Electric pump vs mechanical pump for standard power levels" but i left the question a little more open as it could also be interesting to others which can be tuned higher.
I have read that E pumps give better economy / smoothness in driving for instance, i wanted to check this.
Of course if your donor already came with an E pump and ECU, theres no extra expense to buy, and little cost to de-immo it.
The alda on some mechanical pumps have a set gain and ramp up from there, this can give rich mixtures as boost begins to come in.
This can also be done on the e-pump through an aggressive map but its a compromise then for what you want.
But yes in my mind your donor engine comes with an e-pump and ecu so why not utilise what is already there.
I think the mindset of going mechanical pump is just there because there hasnt been another option and also most people like to steer clear of electrics, and would rather turn a screw or two to get the fuelling set, much like a carb.
There is also the fact that many people go out and get large elements and a mechanical pump and never run the power levels there designed for, much like the case of some petrol driven project cars.
standalone ecus, massive fuel pumps and fully "built" engine and then they start upgrading everything else to match like brakes, suspension, bucket seats and slowly the car becomes something it wasn't intended and more of a spec list to brag about.
The smoothness and economy from a electric pump is partially due to the fact you can run specific fuelling levels for different boost levels.
The alda on some mechanical pumps have a set gain and ramp up from there, this can give rich mixtures as boost begins to come in.
This can also be done on the e-pump through an aggressive map but its a compromise then for what you want.
But yes in my mind your donor engine comes with an e-pump and ecu so why not utilise what is already there.
I think the mindset of going mechanical pump is just there because there hasnt been another option and also most people like to steer clear of electrics, and would rather turn a screw or two to get the fuelling set, much like a carb.
There is also the fact that many people go out and get large elements and a mechanical pump and never run the power levels there designed for, much like the case of some petrol driven project cars.
standalone ecus, massive fuel pumps and fully "built" engine and then they start upgrading everything else to match like brakes, suspension, bucket seats and slowly the car becomes something it wasn't intended and more of a spec list to brag about.
Original map:
boost max 15 psi on hx35 (from 12 psi on stock turbo), no real power gains.
ver 1 of remap, used to be:
- original up to 3000rpm, 3000-4200rpm climbing, 4200rpm full fuel power.max rpm 5200.. Overboost safety at 1,85 bar (switch of engine for 10 seconds)
- required Air Flow Meter, so that I had to use shitty piping (coudnt put K&N directly on turbo). The car was running great or not fast , i suspected AFM problems. I changed WG control to boost line opening WG, not the vaccum controller)suspecting WG opening random, but it wasnt it. Now I have boost controling WG.[another problem, cant get past 20psi, spring too soft)
Car was fast, with WG forced closed it was going up to 27 psi (1,85BAR) the car had power. Sometimes because of overboosting, it went to "slow mode" - max boost 10 psi, no realpower, drivable, sometimes it came to life ... . I changed boost control from vaccum controler to boost and spring. now cant go past 20psi
thiking of adding external spring)2 weeks driving no problems exept for apearing and disapearing boost (probably AirFlowMeter).
Yesterday I inserted ver.2 of remap.2 chips.
On forum I found somebodys comment, I can get rid of AFM, so I can put K&N directly on turbo, I left boost WG control (still max 20psi)
ver 2 of chip Is supposed to go stock fueling till 2000rpm, increase 2000-3200 and full power above 3200. Boost limit 2 bar (I have sensor from VW)
5500 rpm max.
Now. The guy told me after installing if glow plugs lamp goes on. It went on, so we started engine. it started. We went for a drive and while kickdown we had engine shutdown (happened only once). I stopped the car. restarted the engine and the rest of testing was very positive.
Yes, fuel was too rich too eraly on full throttle from start, but with easier start, i managed to start without balack smoke.
I have no AFM, I have K&N on turbo , so no complicated piping and no AFM connected). Engine has power.
Today morning on red light engine died on me, on idle. didnt start, the glow plug lamp gignt go on. Didnt start till I accesed computer and pressed on the chips in sockets. Than it started, died on idle again!!, and than started and slowly I drove home.
Yesterday on warm engine everything was fine.WTF
Questions.
- Is it my socket bad weld ?
- Is it the map with crappy idle and cold engine mapping
- I feel max 220-250HP. at speeds over 180km/h its not superfast,
- should I messure how many volts I have on pump ? 4,65 V ?
- what rack travel do I have ? 18mm, or less, I dont expect to have 110ccm of fuel,
The car goes slower than W124 7,5mm pump i had before.
Im kind of disapointed,
Can I get more fuel out of this 6mm elements ? do I need to takeout the EDC pump to increase rack travel to have this 140ccm on 6mm element ?
thnanks for your time barrote
1999 S210 Edc pump. 7.5mm dieselmeken element.
HX35W turbo, custom map.
Brakes 330mm 4 piston brembo CL500, bolt on fit. Longer brake lines. 3mm spacers.
260km/h
2.1 boost for now.
16 inch steel wheels with 20mm spacers.
My cas is a stock S210 1997 with automatic gearbox, HX35 on a adapter, stock manifold, stock pump(6mm),
Original map:
boost max 15 psi on hx35 (from 12 psi on stock turbo), no real power gains.
ver 1 of remap, used to be:
- original up to 3000rpm, 3000-4200rpm climbing, 4200rpm full fuel power.max rpm 5200.. Overboost safety at 1,85 bar (switch of engine for 10 seconds)
- required Air Flow Meter, so that I had to use shitty piping (coudnt put K&N directly on turbo). The car was running great or not fast , i suspected AFM problems. I changed WG control to boost line opening WG, not the vaccum controller)suspecting WG opening random, but it wasnt it. Now I have boost controling WG.[another problem, cant get past 20psi, spring too soft)
Car was fast, with WG forced closed it was going up to 27 psi (1,85BAR) the car had power. Sometimes because of overboosting, it went to "slow mode" - max boost 10 psi, no realpower, drivable, sometimes it came to life ... . I changed boost control from vaccum controler to boost and spring. now cant go past 20psi thiking of adding external spring)
2 weeks driving no problems exept for apearing and disapearing boost (probably AirFlowMeter).
Yesterday I inserted ver.2 of remap.2 chips.
On forum I found somebodys comment, I can get rid of AFM, so I can put K&N directly on turbo, I left boost WG control (still max 20psi)
ver 2 of chip Is supposed to go stock fueling till 2000rpm, increase 2000-3200 and full power above 3200. Boost limit 2 bar (I have sensor from VW)
5500 rpm max.
Now. The guy told me after installing if glow plugs lamp goes on. It went on, so we started engine. it started. We went for a drive and while kickdown we had engine shutdown (happened only once). I stopped the car. restarted the engine and the rest of testing was very positive.
Yes, fuel was too rich too eraly on full throttle from start, but with easier start, i managed to start without balack smoke.
I have no AFM, I have K&N on turbo , so no complicated piping and no AFM connected). Engine has power.
Today morning on red light engine died on me, on idle. didnt start, the glow plug lamp gignt go on. Didnt start till I accesed computer and pressed on the chips in sockets. Than it started, died on idle again!!, and than started and slowly I drove home.
Yesterday on warm engine everything was fine.WTF
Questions.
- Is it my socket bad weld ?
- Is it the map with crappy idle and cold engine mapping
- I feel max 220-250HP. at speeds over 180km/h its not superfast,
- should I messure how many volts I have on pump ? 4,65 V ?
- what rack travel do I have ? 18mm, or less, I dont expect to have 110ccm of fuel,
The car goes slower than W124 7,5mm pump i had before.
Im kind of disapointed,
Can I get more fuel out of this 6mm elements ? do I need to takeout the EDC pump to increase rack travel to have this 140ccm on 6mm element ?
thnanks for your time barrote
1999 S210 Edc pump. 7.5mm dieselmeken element.
HX35W turbo, custom map.
Brakes 330mm 4 piston brembo CL500, bolt on fit. Longer brake lines. 3mm spacers.
260km/h
2.1 boost for now.
16 inch steel wheels with 20mm spacers.
Sometimes its bad contact on chips or socket pin has lifted, make sure to clean any flux away.
ive never had a cold or hot start issue when doing a remap , you shouldn't either.
starting injection etc doesn't need to be touched.
18mm is the max travel im aware unless you have a dieselmeken pump with new elements and they get an extra 1-2mm travel.
i had a stock turbo and remap and it felt quite fast. with a hx35 it should feel fast but with lag.
i never ran my holset with 6mm elements only with 8mm.
you should be able to get enough fuel for 300hp with stock pump depends on your map though and it may be smokey on boost
any map i do i alway map out the egr system this stops egr limp and allows you to remove afm and egr vacuum control.
ive seen others try with various resistors etc but not a 100% solution.
sounds like a bad socket alright yes, i always use contact cleaner when swapping chips .
Sometimes its bad contact on chips or socket pin has lifted, make sure to clean any flux away.
ive never had a cold or hot start issue when doing a remap , you shouldn't either.
starting injection etc doesn't need to be touched.
18mm is the max travel im aware unless you have a dieselmeken pump with new elements and they get an extra 1-2mm travel.
i had a stock turbo and remap and it felt quite fast. with a hx35 it should feel fast but with lag.
i never ran my holset with 6mm elements only with 8mm.
you should be able to get enough fuel for 300hp with stock pump depends on your map though and it may be smokey on boost
any map i do i alway map out the egr system this stops egr limp and allows you to remove afm and egr vacuum control.
ive seen others try with various resistors etc but not a 100% solution.
About the EGR control. The S300 and G300 versions of the OM606 had an extra sensor that directly measured EGR valve lift. If you disconnect that the ECU goes into limp mode. It isn't clear to me if the ECU tries to test the EGR valve for movement if the EGR has been "programmed out" to zero in a tuning.
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