603 3,5 liter block with 606 24v head
603 3,5 liter block with 606 24v head
I would like to use my OM606 24v newly rebuild tophead in a engine with longer stroke than OM606a to gain low end torque in my Gwagen
Is it possible to use the OM603 3,5 liter block and bolt on a OM606a head ? What need to be changed?
Will piston hit the extra 2 valves ? need other pistons ? Other?
Or
How to stroke a 606a block with the 3,5 liter crank, what piston or rods to use ?
Worried about puston pin heights, etc,,
Im afraid of ovalization/piston slap of the cylinders.
I fitted kmcams stronger valve springs, drilled the pre chambers a litle(10%) and a dieselmeken pump waiting to get installed, W5A900 722.6 aut gearbox, ole fejer gearboxcontroller, ++
Thank you for all helpful input.
Gwagen 460, om606.962. 722.6 Ole Fejer controller++
Gwagen 463, shitty 603,,,,at the moment,,,
Gwagen 463, 270cdi
Hey need some input here.
I would like to use my OM606 24v newly rebuild tophead in a engine with longer stroke than OM606a to gain low end torque in my Gwagen
Is it possible to use the OM603 3,5 liter block and bolt on a OM606a head ? What need to be changed?
Will piston hit the extra 2 valves ? need other pistons ? Other?
Or
How to stroke a 606a block with the 3,5 liter crank, what piston or rods to use ?
Worried about puston pin heights, etc,,
Im afraid of ovalization/piston slap of the cylinders.
I fitted kmcams stronger valve springs, drilled the pre chambers a litle(10%) and a dieselmeken pump waiting to get installed, W5A900 722.6 aut gearbox, ole fejer gearboxcontroller, ++
Thank you for all helpful input.
Gwagen 460, om606.962. 722.6 Ole Fejer controller++
Gwagen 463, shitty 603,,,,at the moment,,,
Gwagen 463, 270cdi
i´m doing it with a 602. basically the 4 valve head is drop in with minor changes...
drilling a 605 to 89mm bores would do the trick , problem is the block well, is 5mm short, might be the same with the 606 since they are just the same with a cylinder more.
chain need atention , chain guide small things
pistons.... well finding a 89mm piston with the center hole to acomodate the slight ofset center precup would be easy , i dont know any.
in my build i intend to run it DI so i use DI pistons , the ones i found have the well ofset in such a way that they just match the 4 valve precup. wrist pin is 28mm so they can suit your needs in last resort.
gasket , u have to use the 4 valve gasket , so it need to be enlarged to 89mm
if i remember nothing else....
just as a reminder , a 2 valve engine usually is a lot more powerfull in low rev power, a lot more than a 4 valve, wich is boss at high revs.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
It can be done....
i´m doing it with a 602. basically the 4 valve head is drop in with minor changes...
drilling a 605 to 89mm bores would do the trick , problem is the block well, is 5mm short, might be the same with the 606 since they are just the same with a cylinder more.
chain need atention , chain guide small things
pistons.... well finding a 89mm piston with the center hole to acomodate the slight ofset center precup would be easy , i dont know any.
in my build i intend to run it DI so i use DI pistons , the ones i found have the well ofset in such a way that they just match the 4 valve precup. wrist pin is 28mm so they can suit your needs in last resort.
gasket , u have to use the 4 valve gasket , so it need to be enlarged to 89mm
if i remember nothing else....
just as a reminder , a 2 valve engine usually is a lot more powerfull in low rev power, a lot more than a 4 valve, wich is boss at high revs.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
in your case 603 and 606 3.5 are 89mm .
but u dont have to use 89mm bores, u can install the 603 D35 crank in a 606.96 block, the problema is the cylinder well , it canot acomodate the piston when it travels down, unless u want to sleve the block.
as i said i just assume they are similar to 5 cylinders....
u can always machine the piston crown to acomodate the 4 valves and the center hole .... no harm will come from that , unless u leave liver corners in there, but when mirror polished they will witstand whatever heat u put to them.
regarsd
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
cause 3.5 engines and 2.9 and 2.3 and 2.2 are 89mm pistons , just saying 612 13 , 88mm 611 89mm 612 d 30 91mm and so on
in your case 603 and 606 3.5 are 89mm .
but u dont have to use 89mm bores, u can install the 603 D35 crank in a 606.96 block, the problema is the cylinder well , it canot acomodate the piston when it travels down, unless u want to sleve the block.
as i said i just assume they are similar to 5 cylinders....
u can always machine the piston crown to acomodate the 4 valves and the center hole .... no harm will come from that , unless u leave liver corners in there, but when mirror polished they will witstand whatever heat u put to them.
regarsd
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I am actually considering this same build. A couple of observations:
The pistons on the OM603.97x (3.5l) have only 2 flycuts for the valves. The OM606 has 4 smaller flycuts for the 4 valve setup.
The pistons in the 3.5l are larger diameter than the others. I have not disassembled that block yet, but the 606 ones with rings on fit inside the bore easily and fall into the bore of the 3.5l. Machining would need to be done on the smaller displacement blocks to fit the 3.5l pistons.
The 3.5l has a definite history of being a "rodbender" in N. America. M-B supposedly corrected those issues at the end of that engine's production. I think a major problem here was the "rod ratio". M-B increased the stroke of the engine, but decreased the lenght of the rod. That is opposite of what you want to do in an ideal engine. I am not taking any chances with my build, I will find the longest rod that I can to fit with the pistons I end up with. I am looking into possibly using some forger steel Mahle Monotherms...just have to find the correct application that will fit.
The head gaskets for both engines appear to line up correctly. Swapping heads over should not be an issue. There may be different oiling requirements between the 2 tho...another whole cam to feed oil to, etc.
There are other things I am likely forgetting at this point, but its a good start.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
02-22-2016, 03:11 AM #5I wrote this earlier before other posts...could go thru it and update with what others have already answered...but I wont.
I am actually considering this same build. A couple of observations:
The pistons on the OM603.97x (3.5l) have only 2 flycuts for the valves. The OM606 has 4 smaller flycuts for the 4 valve setup.
The pistons in the 3.5l are larger diameter than the others. I have not disassembled that block yet, but the 606 ones with rings on fit inside the bore easily and fall into the bore of the 3.5l. Machining would need to be done on the smaller displacement blocks to fit the 3.5l pistons.
The 3.5l has a definite history of being a "rodbender" in N. America. M-B supposedly corrected those issues at the end of that engine's production. I think a major problem here was the "rod ratio". M-B increased the stroke of the engine, but decreased the lenght of the rod. That is opposite of what you want to do in an ideal engine. I am not taking any chances with my build, I will find the longest rod that I can to fit with the pistons I end up with. I am looking into possibly using some forger steel Mahle Monotherms...just have to find the correct application that will fit.
The head gaskets for both engines appear to line up correctly. Swapping heads over should not be an issue. There may be different oiling requirements between the 2 tho...another whole cam to feed oil to, etc.
There are other things I am likely forgetting at this point, but its a good start.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
I tend to sell these om606 3.5-liter kits to all you guys. Also 2.9-liter om605 and something a little special...You are really nailing most of the issues here and I hope you can get it working.
F-tune Performance
![[Image: V-band_om606.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/V-band_om606.jpg)
![[Image: GTX3582R.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GTX3582R.jpg)
![[Image: gs6-53dz_gearbox.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/gs6-53dz_gearbox.jpg)
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
You are thinking in a way I like. I have sorted these problems but for once I will not share I tend to sell these om606 3.5-liter kits to all you guys. Also 2.9-liter om605 and something a little special...
You are really nailing most of the issues here and I hope you can get it working.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
nevertheless a 4 valve gasket can be used.... unless i´m mistaken the 2 valve block is bolt on to the 4 valve head with the exception of one or two oil drain holes.
The 605/6 block has the same deck height as a 602/3 so the rotating parts can be used drop in!!! D29 or D35 cranks have a 8mm more throw so the piston must descend a lot more in the cylinder well, the 605/6 block does not offer enough suport for the skirt , unless it is sleved!!!
FRAS hy there , just out of curiosity , are u seling 89mm pistons for 4 valves? with wrist pin at 28mm, if so how much for each?
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
I felas , as i wrote above the 2 valve head gasket does not offer the coverage for the timing case with a 4 valve head above it.
nevertheless a 4 valve gasket can be used.... unless i´m mistaken the 2 valve block is bolt on to the 4 valve head with the exception of one or two oil drain holes.
The 605/6 block has the same deck height as a 602/3 so the rotating parts can be used drop in!!! D29 or D35 cranks have a 8mm more throw so the piston must descend a lot more in the cylinder well, the 605/6 block does not offer enough suport for the skirt , unless it is sleved!!!
FRAS hy there , just out of curiosity , are u seling 89mm pistons for 4 valves? with wrist pin at 28mm, if so how much for each?
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(02-22-2016, 05:26 AM)barrote FRAS hi there , just out of curiosity , are u selling 89mm pistons for 4 valves? with wrist pin at 28mm, if so how much for each?
regards
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
No I don't at this time and the only 89mm 4-valve pistons I will sell are part of the stroker kit. And yes they do have different compression height to deal with the longer throw
(02-22-2016, 05:26 AM)barrote FRAS hi there , just out of curiosity , are u selling 89mm pistons for 4 valves? with wrist pin at 28mm, if so how much for each?
regards
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
, thats another way of having it inside...personaly the idea of adding just 5mm of skirt was in the table , but then a found a 602.98X block wich solved the matter for good.
thanks good to know where the parts are
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
i see , about the throw your kit comes with diff size rods and pistons right , thats another way of having it inside...
personaly the idea of adding just 5mm of skirt was in the table , but then a found a 602.98X block wich solved the matter for good.
thanks good to know where the parts are
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
http://www.acm-ab.se/vevstake-spm-h-profil/298
I also heard that the OM604 turbo have 89mm pistons 4valve cut in top, but they are still 1-2mm to tall for the block,,,
Gwagen 460, om606.962. 722.6 Ole Fejer controller++
Gwagen 463, shitty 603,,,,at the moment,,,
Gwagen 463, 270cdi
Here is a link to diff rods
http://www.acm-ab.se/vevstake-spm-h-profil/298
I also heard that the OM604 turbo have 89mm pistons 4valve cut in top, but they are still 1-2mm to tall for the block,,,
Gwagen 460, om606.962. 722.6 Ole Fejer controller++
Gwagen 463, shitty 603,,,,at the moment,,,
Gwagen 463, 270cdi
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
om604 was never made as a turbo
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
(02-24-2016, 04:01 PM)tgg416 Here is a link to diff rods
http://www.acm-ab.se/vevstake-spm-h-profil/298
I also heard that the OM604 turbo have 89mm pistons 4valve cut in top, but they are still 1-2mm to tall for the block,,,
Would the pistons be too tall if a different crankshaft were used? Would a 3L crank in a 3.5L block lower the piston height sufficiently?
(02-24-2016, 04:01 PM)tgg416 Here is a link to diff rods
http://www.acm-ab.se/vevstake-spm-h-profil/298
I also heard that the OM604 turbo have 89mm pistons 4valve cut in top, but they are still 1-2mm to tall for the block,,,
Would the pistons be too tall if a different crankshaft were used? Would a 3L crank in a 3.5L block lower the piston height sufficiently?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
The blocks are more or less similar. A 3-liter crank with 3-liter rods and 3-liter pistons would work (except for the fact that 3-liter pistons are 87mm). If using om604 pistons with the same setup you need to deck the block 1.3mm. 1.3mm doesn't sound much but it will actually lower the compression beyond the point that the engine will start with. Then again, why??? It has to be easier to just bore a om606 block to 89mm
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
What torque on what RPM are we talking about and with which turbo? I mean how big difference this 3,3 or 3,5 liter engine makes compared to stock om606, is it worth all the time and money. You can make reliable torque from stock 606 also, if it goes to Gwagen then turbo should be as small as possible to give torque on low RPM.
Would a supercharger (eaton m90) in addition to a properly sized turbo raise the compression enough to not need decking the block?
Did the 604 come with piston oil squirters?
I've got a 3.5 block and 3L crank, rods and pistons...if I used 604 pistons how low would the compression be?
Would a supercharger (eaton m90) in addition to a properly sized turbo raise the compression enough to not need decking the block?
Did the 604 come with piston oil squirters?
if u want to use the internals from one in the other as long as u respect the piston pin center to top distance they will fit... drop in ,
what fras was talking about was piston projection, and this has to do with the head and the gasket.... some engines use .8 others 1.3
even if u need to use 2 gaskets is somehow posible to mate things toguether.
another question wich i´m tired of talking about is the cylinder well , in the 4 valves the well is not deep enough to acomodate the longuer stroke crank, basically the piston will descent to low, and it will rock too much!!!!
but since the 4 valve head can be used in the 2 valve block almost drop in .... u just need to find, mod a piston to acomodate the 4 valve head....
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
the deck height in the blocks is the same, 23.5mm . usually are the rods that make the magic!!!
if u want to use the internals from one in the other as long as u respect the piston pin center to top distance they will fit... drop in ,
what fras was talking about was piston projection, and this has to do with the head and the gasket.... some engines use .8 others 1.3
even if u need to use 2 gaskets is somehow posible to mate things toguether.
another question wich i´m tired of talking about is the cylinder well , in the 4 valves the well is not deep enough to acomodate the longuer stroke crank, basically the piston will descent to low, and it will rock too much!!!!
but since the 4 valve head can be used in the 2 valve block almost drop in .... u just need to find, mod a piston to acomodate the 4 valve head....
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(02-26-2016, 02:27 AM)F.R.A.S ... If using om604 pistons with the same setup you need to deck the block 1.3mm ...
Say i use an om606 block bored to 89mm for om604 pistons, 3.5l crank and 3.5l rods the piston will be 1.3mm too low. What about using an offset piston pin bushing,since the 3.5l rods have 28mm small end and the om604 pistons should have 26mm pin,instead of decking the block ??
(02-26-2016, 02:27 AM)F.R.A.S ... If using om604 pistons with the same setup you need to deck the block 1.3mm ...
Say i use an om606 block bored to 89mm for om604 pistons, 3.5l crank and 3.5l rods the piston will be 1.3mm too low. What about using an offset piston pin bushing,since the 3.5l rods have 28mm small end and the om604 pistons should have 26mm pin,instead of decking the block ??
wont u think ???
then mirror polish the crown , to avoid hot spots , or coat them , but never forguet the cutting edges must be smooth dwn....
once i measured several pistons and they all fit in the same measures, i just can´t understand why are we are arguing about decking this or not , since the problema is piston projection.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
i belive is rather easy to cut piston top to acomodate the 4 valves instead....
wont u think ???
then mirror polish the crown , to avoid hot spots , or coat them , but never forguet the cutting edges must be smooth dwn....
once i measured several pistons and they all fit in the same measures, i just can´t understand why are we are arguing about decking this or not , since the problema is piston projection.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
1 Guest(s)
1 Guest(s)