Is this the correct RS203 IP for my 606 STD project?
Is this the correct RS203 IP for my 606 STD project?
few months ago, I decided to build a 606 STD and I've been reading in these holy halls since then. I want to build a w124 or w126 with 400-500hp (and not too much smoke since I live in Germany
![[Image: wink.gif]](http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/images/smilies/wink.gif)
) I'm on the lookout for a IP and found two RS203 which I could buy. I am just not absolutely sure, if they are the best suitable.
Could you please tell me which one I should pick and if they are the correct pump types?
I could get a OM606.910 NA (the pump has a yellow/silver/red numberplate and is a RS203) for about 600 euro, it's missing the intake manifold, generator and starter.
Or just a pump alone, same dealer. Don't know about the price yet. He says this pump has not been used (!)...
The numberplate says:
PES 6M 55C 320 RS203
Sorry for the bad quality pictures, but that's all he sent me. Maybe I could get better ones.
I'd rather buy the pump alone because shipping would be way cheaper of course. And I don't need a gutted 606NA engine lying around
Thanks guys!
Hey guys,
few months ago, I decided to build a 606 STD and I've been reading in these holy halls since then. I want to build a w124 or w126 with 400-500hp (and not too much smoke since I live in Germany )
I'm on the lookout for a IP and found two RS203 which I could buy. I am just not absolutely sure, if they are the best suitable.
Could you please tell me which one I should pick and if they are the correct pump types?
I could get a OM606.910 NA (the pump has a yellow/silver/red numberplate and is a RS203) for about 600 euro, it's missing the intake manifold, generator and starter.
Or just a pump alone, same dealer. Don't know about the price yet. He says this pump has not been used (!)...
The numberplate says:
PES 6M 55C 320 RS203
Sorry for the bad quality pictures, but that's all he sent me. Maybe I could get better ones.
I'd rather buy the pump alone because shipping would be way cheaper of course. And I don't need a gutted 606NA engine lying around
Thanks guys!
THE DIGGER
01-12-2016, 08:59 AM #2As far as i know the RS203 is the last and best of these pumps as it has bigger cam bearings etc, not sure what the gold cylinder is under the idle control on the back of the pump though its no on my rs203.
22/23mm rack travel , u dont need more the pump can´t handle more.
just for u to be informed, that pump being from a 606 N/A is missing gadgets wich in my opinion are o very interest being one the EGR electric control and the EGR vac controll. i know u will not use the pump for a engine with serviceable EGR system but that can be used in the future to kick a VNT turbo and operate a booster pump.
that governor is fitted with a ADA capsule, wich can be replaced by a ALDA. (the capsule in the top)
the red electroactuator is called ELR electronic idle incresse, basically i fit it with PWM 10hz 7Volt current and your idle will increase for cold start , A/C, take of aid daddada and so on.
the botom grey electroactuator is feed the same , causes the rack to cut fuel , it is called ARA electronic anty-jerk system. it is used with the EGR system as well, and to reduce fueling in cruise.
the rest ia just like any other pump....
if u need help for elemento swap tuning and whatever , just PM me.
regards
FD,
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that is a good pump to start with, i personaly like better the rs201, but is the same ....inside the pump housing all of them have the same cam profile lift and so on ... the governor well is one of the last RSF made , and it has the max authority u need about~
22/23mm rack travel , u dont need more the pump can´t handle more.
just for u to be informed, that pump being from a 606 N/A is missing gadgets wich in my opinion are o very interest being one the EGR electric control and the EGR vac controll. i know u will not use the pump for a engine with serviceable EGR system but that can be used in the future to kick a VNT turbo and operate a booster pump.
that governor is fitted with a ADA capsule, wich can be replaced by a ALDA. (the capsule in the top)
the red electroactuator is called ELR electronic idle incresse, basically i fit it with PWM 10hz 7Volt current and your idle will increase for cold start , A/C, take of aid daddada and so on.
the botom grey electroactuator is feed the same , causes the rack to cut fuel , it is called ARA electronic anty-jerk system. it is used with the EGR system as well, and to reduce fueling in cruise.
the rest ia just like any other pump....
if u need help for elemento swap tuning and whatever , just PM me.
regards
FD,
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And thank you barrote for the detailed information on these pumps. There's still a lot to learn for me
I just ordered the new pump.
I think it's a steal, considering that it's new (well, we'll see if it really is) and that it's not too easy to get these pumps even in germany.
Thanks for the quick answers!
And thank you barrote for the detailed information on these pumps. There's still a lot to learn for me
I just ordered the new pump.
I think it's a steal, considering that it's new (well, we'll see if it really is) and that it's not too easy to get these pumps even in germany.
even here where things are expensive i belive i can find a 6 cyl core for 200€ or something, 5 cyl 150€ bunch of them ... even 50...
lol...
right time at the right junk yard hehhehe
regards
FD,
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and what about now , u need elemento improvement how u plan to do that? if u need help just pm me for the numbers .
even here where things are expensive i belive i can find a 6 cyl core for 200€ or something, 5 cyl 150€ bunch of them ... even 50...
lol...
right time at the right junk yard hehhehe
regards
FD,
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By the way. The pump really has never been used. The seller bought a bunch of new engines and pumps which were designated for the german army.
And wow, those are nice prices for these toys, barrote
lucky you
Thanks mate, at the moment I am busy restoring my 1984 Opel Kadett D (with 2,0 16V GSI engineswap), hence it'll be a while before I can go on (or even start) with the STD project. Also I have to wait for another moneytrain to pass by
By the way. The pump really has never been used. The seller bought a bunch of new engines and pumps which were designated for the german army.
And wow, those are nice prices for these toys, barrote lucky you
Well worth looking closely at the anti jerk/bonanza effect module on the back of the pump and getting it to work, STD’s with jerk can be tricky to drive smoothly and if really bad it’s a pain in the a$$.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
maxypriest
01-13-2016, 08:51 AM #8Have you any more of those pumps for sale?
Well worth looking closely at the anti jerk/bonanza effect module on the back of the pump and getting it to work, STD’s with jerk can be tricky to drive smoothly and if really bad it’s a pain in the a$$.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
![[Image: mecha-ara.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/mecha-ara.jpg)
The clutch is not the big problem, the main problem ist the soft mounting of the 124 engines which resonates and causes this jerking. Using the right clutch can help, yes. But all in all: it's a shit construction
anyway, this thing reduces throttle with engine lean - it does an OK job, but if you'r not used to manual transmissions, you can still get it to jerk... But not many people know this, it's a very rare sight these days.Or just use a W123 - never a problem with jerking...
DiseaselWeasel
01-13-2016, 04:37 PM #11Maybe, but the pump does the counterpart... If it does. I think 90% of the anti-jerk ECUs are toast anyway... But there's a mechanical version that was dealer fitted to early manual cars (if customer complained), before the electronic version was developed. Sort of a emergency band-aid, but it does work!
The clutch is not the big problem, the main problem ist the soft mounting of the 124 engines which resonates and causes this jerking. Using the right clutch can help, yes. But all in all: it's a shit construction anyway, this thing reduces throttle with engine lean - it does an OK job, but if you'r not used to manual transmissions, you can still get it to jerk... But not many people know this, it's a very rare sight these days.
Or just use a W123 - never a problem with jerking...
Good luck with your project and post some more photos along the way!
atypicalguy
01-14-2016, 05:27 AM #12Any of the pump builders have suitable cores for 300 euros or so I think. If you are planning to build your own and save money they it makes sense to buy a core, but if you plan to send it for rebuild anyway I am not sure what the advantage is because you spend $100 euros to ship the core to them.
Good luck with your project and post some more photos along the way!
interesting thing is when engine is cold, it does not jerk or at least is not so visible , starting to agravate after really hot. (one hour driving)
other interesting fact is , the jerking can be almost eliminated with retarding the pump timing but it does not really dissapear. IP Throtle Damper helps , so basically the pump retarded and a good damper the jerking goes almost away.
Clutch , now i have a W202 2.5TD stock clutch wich jerks a litle, before i had a single mass from a M104 , that thing when hot jesus was imposible do drive slow.
Boost, recently my GT 23 got with vanes stuck , and basically was not building boost at low rpm, sudennly the jerking disapeared,
Then i concluded , that the jerking has to do with the inability of the clutch to dampend properly the harmonic vibration gnerated by the power pulses of the engine, and once it crosses the resonant harmonic it starts to increase amplitude. This can be even amplified by a defective (inexistance) IP throtle damper, associated with the fact that the pump already has a cernain inability to manintain regulated variable speed, due to the fine control needed over the element. This fine control can be best achieved in the 5.5mm one but will be desastrous in the 7.5mm version.
I agree with mr dieselweasel, in all u said. and i would like to discuss this matter deeper with u.
regards
FD,
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well, i lost many hours digging on the jerking thing , and come out to nothing, my car has a anty jerk controler, wich long ago stoped working. it start to jerking really hard after the 6mm 90cc swap, and became worst with 7.5mm 150cc.
interesting thing is when engine is cold, it does not jerk or at least is not so visible , starting to agravate after really hot. (one hour driving)
other interesting fact is , the jerking can be almost eliminated with retarding the pump timing but it does not really dissapear. IP Throtle Damper helps , so basically the pump retarded and a good damper the jerking goes almost away.
Clutch , now i have a W202 2.5TD stock clutch wich jerks a litle, before i had a single mass from a M104 , that thing when hot jesus was imposible do drive slow.
Boost, recently my GT 23 got with vanes stuck , and basically was not building boost at low rpm, sudennly the jerking disapeared,
Then i concluded , that the jerking has to do with the inability of the clutch to dampend properly the harmonic vibration gnerated by the power pulses of the engine, and once it crosses the resonant harmonic it starts to increase amplitude. This can be even amplified by a defective (inexistance) IP throtle damper, associated with the fact that the pump already has a cernain inability to manintain regulated variable speed, due to the fine control needed over the element. This fine control can be best achieved in the 5.5mm one but will be desastrous in the 7.5mm version.
I agree with mr dieselweasel, in all u said. and i would like to discuss this matter deeper with u.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
If only I could remember if it was Sachs or LUK clutch that is supposed to have minimising effect on the jerking... I think it was the LUK pressure plate that was recommended. I'm not able to do a lot of experimenting; I only have automatic cars and plan to keep them automatic.
But given the nature of torque converter; you may be onto something. Allowing the drive-line to have flex rather than the engine mounts. Resp. have something that compensates torque like a "spring". What flex discs are you using? The "hard" ones or the "soft" ones with cut-outs for manual cars? Though I could imagine that the soft ones don't handle a lot of power...
Anyway; this subject is interessting. and as said, this mechanical throttle retarding-thing does an OK job at reducing jerking. But that's all I can contribute from personal experience. I know of a 250TD manual car which didn't jerk - it only started to do so when the ARA device broke... Then it was realy bad with 90HP allready...
Cheers,
Jan
DiseaselWeasel
01-14-2016, 01:44 PM #14Hi barrote!
If only I could remember if it was Sachs or LUK clutch that is supposed to have minimising effect on the jerking... I think it was the LUK pressure plate that was recommended. I'm not able to do a lot of experimenting; I only have automatic cars and plan to keep them automatic.
But given the nature of torque converter; you may be onto something. Allowing the drive-line to have flex rather than the engine mounts. Resp. have something that compensates torque like a "spring". What flex discs are you using? The "hard" ones or the "soft" ones with cut-outs for manual cars? Though I could imagine that the soft ones don't handle a lot of power...
Anyway; this subject is interessting. and as said, this mechanical throttle retarding-thing does an OK job at reducing jerking. But that's all I can contribute from personal experience. I know of a 250TD manual car which didn't jerk - it only started to do so when the ARA device broke... Then it was realy bad with 90HP allready...
Cheers,
Jan
the contribuition could well be grey matter
I don´t even know wich type of flex diskd i have , cause my car and possibly all around here already changed flex´s to a Aftermarket brand so , probably mine are worn out pretty bad.
i´m waiting them to broke, after i will use fexcouplings made of stainless stell. aviation type....
The IP can indeed be the cause, initially and then all things like clutch disk or bimass flywheel, flex´s and even transmission and diff play all toguether turn it into a harsh thing to deal with.
As a pump expert , more or less .... the job of the ARA device is actually cut a litle fuel directly of the rack , but this litle 2/3mm is more like 10/20 cc in a 6mm pump, tuned to have max 43cc wich is what a 602 TD uses.
well i have another theory and if my theory is right then the ARA computer will be of a huge help.
my theory is related to the idle governor in the RSF device, wich is a remarkable idling machine is very sensitive to changes . when we start to use throtle the idle Spring is compressed forcing the idle governor to be against a certain force, causing it to leave the konstant speed governing to variable speed governing wich is made by another Spring wich has much more authority, and respectively playing much more rack travel than it does. likewise the ARA magnet reduces this amount of rack to be used. making the governor less active in regards to the amount of rack movement.
Like everybody wich felt the simpton it dissapears with full throtle, inside the governor when we press full throtle , or half throtle another set of springs will be compressed wich results only in the governor leaving the function of variable speed governing to max speed governing , wich is not the same as variable speed.
This to say that soon i will work on this thing, thats when i´ll need your help for the ARA controler , i´m missing wiring diagram books and boxes explanation. first i´ll try to see the diference in a 7.5mm pump with the ara controler working . if it does help we might all have to move into ARA controlers and pumps, or i find the right set of springs to be changed in the governors..... hehhe
thanks , its related but sorry to highjack the thread,
FD,
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yep, i see auto´s hummmmm
the contribuition could well be grey matter
I don´t even know wich type of flex diskd i have , cause my car and possibly all around here already changed flex´s to a Aftermarket brand so , probably mine are worn out pretty bad.
i´m waiting them to broke, after i will use fexcouplings made of stainless stell. aviation type....
The IP can indeed be the cause, initially and then all things like clutch disk or bimass flywheel, flex´s and even transmission and diff play all toguether turn it into a harsh thing to deal with.
As a pump expert , more or less .... the job of the ARA device is actually cut a litle fuel directly of the rack , but this litle 2/3mm is more like 10/20 cc in a 6mm pump, tuned to have max 43cc wich is what a 602 TD uses.
well i have another theory and if my theory is right then the ARA computer will be of a huge help.
my theory is related to the idle governor in the RSF device, wich is a remarkable idling machine is very sensitive to changes . when we start to use throtle the idle Spring is compressed forcing the idle governor to be against a certain force, causing it to leave the konstant speed governing to variable speed governing wich is made by another Spring wich has much more authority, and respectively playing much more rack travel than it does. likewise the ARA magnet reduces this amount of rack to be used. making the governor less active in regards to the amount of rack movement.
Like everybody wich felt the simpton it dissapears with full throtle, inside the governor when we press full throtle , or half throtle another set of springs will be compressed wich results only in the governor leaving the function of variable speed governing to max speed governing , wich is not the same as variable speed.
This to say that soon i will work on this thing, thats when i´ll need your help for the ARA controler , i´m missing wiring diagram books and boxes explanation. first i´ll try to see the diference in a 7.5mm pump with the ara controler working . if it does help we might all have to move into ARA controlers and pumps, or i find the right set of springs to be changed in the governors..... hehhe
thanks , its related but sorry to highjack the thread,
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(01-14-2016, 05:58 AM)barrote "...interesting thing is when engine is cold, it does not jerk or at least is not so visible , starting to agravate after really hot. (one hour driving)
other interesting fact is , the jerking can be almost eliminated with retarding the pump timing but it does not really dissapear. IP Throtle Damper helps , so basically the pump retarded and a good damper the jerking goes almost away."
VERY INTRESTING - mine is exactly the same! when its engine is cold there is no jerking at all. I now dont let the car warm up on the drive for a few mins before we go out for exactly this reason.
I have bought a damper and will make a bracket up to fit it to the pump, probably with a stronger return spring too.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
maxypriest
01-14-2016, 06:15 PM #16(01-14-2016, 05:58 AM)barrote "...interesting thing is when engine is cold, it does not jerk or at least is not so visible , starting to agravate after really hot. (one hour driving)
other interesting fact is , the jerking can be almost eliminated with retarding the pump timing but it does not really dissapear. IP Throtle Damper helps , so basically the pump retarded and a good damper the jerking goes almost away."
VERY INTRESTING - mine is exactly the same! when its engine is cold there is no jerking at all. I now dont let the car warm up on the drive for a few mins before we go out for exactly this reason.
I have bought a damper and will make a bracket up to fit it to the pump, probably with a stronger return spring too.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
atypicalguy
01-14-2016, 08:21 PM #17Probably relates to differences in elasticity of the rubber motor mounts at different temperatures. Possibly something about oil viscosity also. Stiffer durometer rubber or urethane mounts should change the resonant frequency enough to get rid of the oscillation.
This particular car always had good power and was excellent on fuel consumption. However, it suffered from the 'bonanza effect' and our local dealer fitted the updated throttle linkage which improved it greatly but didn't solve it. It did vary from driver to driver though. I could drive the car for months on end with no problems, however, other drivers seemed to have a more kangaroo type driving style. I guess, you had to 'know' your car.
Several factors, as outlined by other posters above caused/contributed to this jerking, but the main problem was the soft mounting of the engine. This gave excellent Noise, Vibration, Harmony characteristics, but driveability was an issue.
I eventually returned the throttle linkage to normal(it was quicker that way!) and fitted a small damper between the engine and the valance/chassis. This practically eliminated the problem as it controlled the engine rocking on its soft mountings.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
01-17-2016, 03:57 AM #19God, this brings back memories. My father bought a new W124 300D 5 speed manual in London in 1987. Fantastic car...went on to cover 700,000 miles in its life and still survives today.
This particular car always had good power and was excellent on fuel consumption. However, it suffered from the 'bonanza effect' and our local dealer fitted the updated throttle linkage which improved it greatly but didn't solve it. It did vary from driver to driver though. I could drive the car for months on end with no problems, however, other drivers seemed to have a more kangaroo type driving style. I guess, you had to 'know' your car.
Several factors, as outlined by other posters above caused/contributed to this jerking, but the main problem was the soft mounting of the engine. This gave excellent Noise, Vibration, Harmony characteristics, but driveability was an issue.
I eventually returned the throttle linkage to normal(it was quicker that way!) and fitted a small damper between the engine and the valance/chassis. This practically eliminated the problem as it controlled the engine rocking on its soft mountings.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
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