Adapting P7100 pump to OM603/606
Adapting P7100 pump to OM603/606
The reason I ask this is because the more I think about what I want to do with my next OM606, the more I am leaning towards attempting to use a P7100 pump, especially after seeing this successfully adapted P pump:
I believe there are many advantages to using the P pump, with the main drawback (other than having to make an adapter for it) being that it delivers more fuel than the OM606 could ever use. Most of the commonly found Cummins pumps are 12mm or 11mm, so I am curious what ways there are to limit the fuel to keep the motor at a 'reliable' power level on stock internals.
For the Cummins owners there are aftermarket injectors available for nearly any horsepower level desired. Even if someone has a built 14mm pump capable of 1500hp for tractor pulls or whatever, they can use so called '80hp' injectors and keep their truck at under 500hp for street driving.
That is why I hoped it may be possible to similarly use smaller nozzles in the OM606 injectors.
The OM60x motors use the Bosch DNOSD (or DN0SD) style nozzles. I believe the OM606 uses the DNOSD265 nozzle. From reading on here people say that the DNOSD314 nozzles flow approximately 15% more fuel. Does this mean the 265 or 314 number directly indicates the size difference of the nozzles? I ask this because 314 is approximately 15% more than 265.
Similarly, I read on here that the stock OM606 injectors are capable of approximately 110-120hp. So multiplying 110-120 times six, let us round the answer to 700hp as the total possible engine horsepower with the stock 265 nozzles.
Now, assuming the number on the nozzle does indicate its size, the smallest DNOSD nozzle available is the DNOSD126. 126 is 48% of 265. Does this mean that with this nozzle the engine would be limited to 48% of 700hp, approximately 330-340hp?
There are about 20-30 different DNOSDxxx nozzles available. They range from the 126 to a 318, so one could certainly find a size to suit their desired power level. There are also DNOSDxxx0 nozzles, but I am not sure how they compare to the three-digit nozzles.
Obviously I am just working with assumptions here, as unfortunately there is not much information publicly available on the nozzle sizing, nor do I even know if any other nozzles will fit or work correctly in the stock injectors.
So anyone more knowledgeable, please correct me if I am wrong, or if you have any better ideas on the possibilities of limiting fuel with the P7100 pump, I would be happy to hear them.
Thanks ahead for any information.
Irony.cc
This may go against the typical way of modding a Superturbodiesel, but I am curious if it is possible to use smaller nozzles to restrict fueling to a desired level.
The reason I ask this is because the more I think about what I want to do with my next OM606, the more I am leaning towards attempting to use a P7100 pump, especially after seeing this successfully adapted P pump:
I believe there are many advantages to using the P pump, with the main drawback (other than having to make an adapter for it) being that it delivers more fuel than the OM606 could ever use. Most of the commonly found Cummins pumps are 12mm or 11mm, so I am curious what ways there are to limit the fuel to keep the motor at a 'reliable' power level on stock internals.
For the Cummins owners there are aftermarket injectors available for nearly any horsepower level desired. Even if someone has a built 14mm pump capable of 1500hp for tractor pulls or whatever, they can use so called '80hp' injectors and keep their truck at under 500hp for street driving.
That is why I hoped it may be possible to similarly use smaller nozzles in the OM606 injectors.
The OM60x motors use the Bosch DNOSD (or DN0SD) style nozzles. I believe the OM606 uses the DNOSD265 nozzle. From reading on here people say that the DNOSD314 nozzles flow approximately 15% more fuel. Does this mean the 265 or 314 number directly indicates the size difference of the nozzles? I ask this because 314 is approximately 15% more than 265.
Similarly, I read on here that the stock OM606 injectors are capable of approximately 110-120hp. So multiplying 110-120 times six, let us round the answer to 700hp as the total possible engine horsepower with the stock 265 nozzles.
Now, assuming the number on the nozzle does indicate its size, the smallest DNOSD nozzle available is the DNOSD126. 126 is 48% of 265. Does this mean that with this nozzle the engine would be limited to 48% of 700hp, approximately 330-340hp?
There are about 20-30 different DNOSDxxx nozzles available. They range from the 126 to a 318, so one could certainly find a size to suit their desired power level. There are also DNOSDxxx0 nozzles, but I am not sure how they compare to the three-digit nozzles.
Obviously I am just working with assumptions here, as unfortunately there is not much information publicly available on the nozzle sizing, nor do I even know if any other nozzles will fit or work correctly in the stock injectors.
So anyone more knowledgeable, please correct me if I am wrong, or if you have any better ideas on the possibilities of limiting fuel with the P7100 pump, I would be happy to hear them.
Thanks ahead for any information.
Irony.cc
They just work as a code number to be able to find them in a big list.
The only thing which can be said is that the lower the number is, the older the nozzle is mostly. Mostly, not in every case.
The 314 flows about as much as the 261 or 265 due to my bench. The +15% is the 315.
Gruß
Volker
The designation numbers don´t tell anything about nozzle flow or someting else. It also does not matter if there are 3 or 4 digits.
They just work as a code number to be able to find them in a big list.
The only thing which can be said is that the lower the number is, the older the nozzle is mostly. Mostly, not in every case.
The 314 flows about as much as the 261 or 265 due to my bench. The +15% is the 315.
Gruß
Volker
why a P pump? that does not make any sense!!!
if i was able to find 10mm elements for my M i would be happy, me and many people around!!!
the injector number most probly means first number for series, 2nd for development stage and 3rd for Type of atomization...
being a DI type injector the flow matters litle, they will flow what ever the plunguer kick behind, it is the plunguer that sets the quantity delivered. the injector just makes sure it is not wasted in pissing and drops after the event is not needed anymore.
acording to certain rules, the shape of the injector will determine how efective the spray is, and the quality of the spray.
a P pump as any other can be set to deliver 50cc max if u want too, what i can´t say is if it is able to inject 10cc for idle reasons , and if it can run at 3500rpm... not the pump , the plunguers inside the barrel, probably they may seize.... and many other issues...
for low press DI injectors that is another matter expecially for dual stage type injectors... the nozles may have a interesting effect on the quantity injected, but these are completly dif type of injectors....
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
???,
why a P pump? that does not make any sense!!!
if i was able to find 10mm elements for my M i would be happy, me and many people around!!!
the injector number most probly means first number for series, 2nd for development stage and 3rd for Type of atomization...
being a DI type injector the flow matters litle, they will flow what ever the plunguer kick behind, it is the plunguer that sets the quantity delivered. the injector just makes sure it is not wasted in pissing and drops after the event is not needed anymore.
acording to certain rules, the shape of the injector will determine how efective the spray is, and the quality of the spray.
a P pump as any other can be set to deliver 50cc max if u want too, what i can´t say is if it is able to inject 10cc for idle reasons , and if it can run at 3500rpm... not the pump , the plunguers inside the barrel, probably they may seize.... and many other issues...
for low press DI injectors that is another matter expecially for dual stage type injectors... the nozles may have a interesting effect on the quantity injected, but these are completly dif type of injectors....
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(11-12-2015, 05:31 PM)Volker407 The designation numbers don´t tell anything about nozzle flow or someting else. It also does not matter if there are 3 or 4 digits.That is quite unfortunate. And yes you are right, after looking back I meant the 315 nozzles as the 15% larger ones, sorry.
They just work as a code number to be able to find them in a big list.
The only thing which can be said is that the lower the number is, the older the nozzle is mostly. Mostly, not in every case.
The 314 flows about as much as the 261 or 265 due to my bench. The +15% is the 315.
(11-12-2015, 05:49 PM)barrote ???,It makes sense here in the US. There is a huge aftermarket and wealth of information for the P7100 pump thanks to the Dodge Cummins trucks, and any diesel shop knows how to work on it. There is no turn-around time to ship it to Europe for elements. If something goes wrong, I can probably pick up another one on Craigslist the same day, and for cheaper than a Superpump.
why a P pump? that does not make any sense!!!
Max rpm can be changed very easily just by swapping out springs inside the RQV governor. Some people run them at 6000+rpm without issues, and supposedly the tractor pull guys rev them even higher.
What is the proper way to set how much max fuel the pump can deliver? The commonly found P7100 pumps deliver 300-325cc in stock form.
Sorry for all the dumb questions, I am trying to learn.
Irony.cc
(11-12-2015, 05:31 PM)Volker407 The designation numbers don´t tell anything about nozzle flow or someting else. It also does not matter if there are 3 or 4 digits.That is quite unfortunate. And yes you are right, after looking back I meant the 315 nozzles as the 15% larger ones, sorry.
They just work as a code number to be able to find them in a big list.
The only thing which can be said is that the lower the number is, the older the nozzle is mostly. Mostly, not in every case.
The 314 flows about as much as the 261 or 265 due to my bench. The +15% is the 315.
(11-12-2015, 05:49 PM)barrote ???,It makes sense here in the US. There is a huge aftermarket and wealth of information for the P7100 pump thanks to the Dodge Cummins trucks, and any diesel shop knows how to work on it. There is no turn-around time to ship it to Europe for elements. If something goes wrong, I can probably pick up another one on Craigslist the same day, and for cheaper than a Superpump.
why a P pump? that does not make any sense!!!
Max rpm can be changed very easily just by swapping out springs inside the RQV governor. Some people run them at 6000+rpm without issues, and supposedly the tractor pull guys rev them even higher.
What is the proper way to set how much max fuel the pump can deliver? The commonly found P7100 pumps deliver 300-325cc in stock form.
Sorry for all the dumb questions, I am trying to learn.
Irony.cc
(11-12-2015, 10:33 PM)barrote(11-12-2015, 05:49 PM)barrote ???,It makes sense here in the US. There is a huge aftermarket and wealth of information for the P7100 pump thanks to the Dodge Cummins trucks, and any diesel shop knows how to work on it. There is no turn-around time to ship it to Europe for elements. If something goes wrong, I can probably pick up another one on Craigslist the same day, and for cheaper than a Superpump.
why a P pump? that does not make any sense!!!
Max rpm can be changed very easily just by swapping out springs inside the RQV governor. Some people run them at 6000+rpm without issues, and supposedly the tractor pull guys rev them even higher.
What is the proper way to set how much max fuel the pump can deliver? The commonly found P7100 pumps deliver 300-325cc in stock form.
Sorry for all the dumb questions, I am trying to learn.
Ok first of all , as i said previously the P or any pump can be set to deliver whatever u want regarding minus from its phisicall max output. why! the deceleration feature in the GOV acts by reducing the output to 0.
The RQV governor in the P pump is what will control the output, tq delivery, idle , cold start and many other fancy things... like RPM well the RQV governor is a load governor , not a variable speed governor, it was moded to be installed for road use vehicles. maybe this means nothing.... i dont know RQV that deep!!!
Tunning pumps in the bench precludes measuring delivered quantities, well my bench can measure with several type of test injector, diferent test pressures, intake , outtake many variable, diferent stroke counting dadda and many other fancy testing conditions...
Considering the T100 volvo engine, 6 cyl 6lts 320HP @ 1800 fitted with a variant of a P series with 12mm element, max output is 120cc at 1000 strokes... u just write that the P7100 deliver 300-325 cc!!! in wich conditions, that is what u have to search for...
for intance VE copies from japan, installed in Toyota veicles have the count at 200 strokes, wich makes a 8,5cc the same as a 42cc in a M type for MB.
My opinion is that a P7 series small body pump, if rated to run at least 2500RPM may handle the 10/11/12mm element and be installed in a 606 engine and performs very well, but again :
1 u have to adapt the pump body to the engine, and choose the pump rated to run in high RPM
2 u must find a element that is rated for high rpm and can deliver at least 200cc at 1000 strokes , test injector 150bar.
3 be sure that u can tune the RQV governor, if diff strenght springs are availabe, if not how can u trick it.
4 do it tell us the result we´ll be very happy to hear from u.
personally i´m after turning a M pump for 60X engines able to run in a 617A engine, just a small mod is needed wich is changing the engine atachment , it is taking a lot resourses and time, is far from being ready , and after a lot of testing will be needed .....maybe it will end in the bin....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(11-12-2015, 10:33 PM)barrote(11-12-2015, 05:49 PM)barrote ???,It makes sense here in the US. There is a huge aftermarket and wealth of information for the P7100 pump thanks to the Dodge Cummins trucks, and any diesel shop knows how to work on it. There is no turn-around time to ship it to Europe for elements. If something goes wrong, I can probably pick up another one on Craigslist the same day, and for cheaper than a Superpump.
why a P pump? that does not make any sense!!!
Max rpm can be changed very easily just by swapping out springs inside the RQV governor. Some people run them at 6000+rpm without issues, and supposedly the tractor pull guys rev them even higher.
What is the proper way to set how much max fuel the pump can deliver? The commonly found P7100 pumps deliver 300-325cc in stock form.
Sorry for all the dumb questions, I am trying to learn.
Ok first of all , as i said previously the P or any pump can be set to deliver whatever u want regarding minus from its phisicall max output. why! the deceleration feature in the GOV acts by reducing the output to 0.
The RQV governor in the P pump is what will control the output, tq delivery, idle , cold start and many other fancy things... like RPM well the RQV governor is a load governor , not a variable speed governor, it was moded to be installed for road use vehicles. maybe this means nothing.... i dont know RQV that deep!!!
Tunning pumps in the bench precludes measuring delivered quantities, well my bench can measure with several type of test injector, diferent test pressures, intake , outtake many variable, diferent stroke counting dadda and many other fancy testing conditions...
Considering the T100 volvo engine, 6 cyl 6lts 320HP @ 1800 fitted with a variant of a P series with 12mm element, max output is 120cc at 1000 strokes... u just write that the P7100 deliver 300-325 cc!!! in wich conditions, that is what u have to search for...
for intance VE copies from japan, installed in Toyota veicles have the count at 200 strokes, wich makes a 8,5cc the same as a 42cc in a M type for MB.
My opinion is that a P7 series small body pump, if rated to run at least 2500RPM may handle the 10/11/12mm element and be installed in a 606 engine and performs very well, but again :
1 u have to adapt the pump body to the engine, and choose the pump rated to run in high RPM
2 u must find a element that is rated for high rpm and can deliver at least 200cc at 1000 strokes , test injector 150bar.
3 be sure that u can tune the RQV governor, if diff strenght springs are availabe, if not how can u trick it.
4 do it tell us the result we´ll be very happy to hear from u.
personally i´m after turning a M pump for 60X engines able to run in a 617A engine, just a small mod is needed wich is changing the engine atachment , it is taking a lot resourses and time, is far from being ready , and after a lot of testing will be needed .....maybe it will end in the bin....
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Isn't restricting fuel by fitting smaller injectors just the worst thing to do? If the injector can't handle the flow the pump wil seize. Why would you want to restrict flow anyway? It's better to give as much fuel al possible in a (relative) short therm. Preferably you want your max pressure/injection/heat soak at 8 - 10 degrees after tdc. Longer injection duration gives less efficiency and wastes energy in the form of heat trough the exhaust.
(11-13-2015, 04:16 PM)Tito Isn't restricting fuel by fitting smaller injectors just the worst thing to do? If the injector can't handle the flow the pump wil seize. Why would you want to restrict flow anyway? It's better to give as much fuel al possible in a (relative) short therm. Preferably you want your max pressure/injection/heat soak at 8 - 10 degrees after tdc. Longer injection duration gives less efficiency and wastes energy in the form of heat trough the exhaust.
Tito is right, if you restrict fuel with the injectors you can risk seizing the pump elements.
Also, remember that when comparing a cummins to a om606 injector, you are talking about a DI injector vs IDI. IDI injectors are totally different than DI injectors.
Barrote,
you seem very skeptical, but a 12mm P7100 can turn in excess of 5k rpms and supply around 500cc/1000. To make it fast revving like an om606 a lighter set of governor weights would need to be fitted to the pump. Do I think its overkill? yes, but like the OP said P7100 pumps are a dime a dozen in the US, and super "M" pumps are not. M pumps in general are actually pretty scarce, especially for 617.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(11-13-2015, 04:16 PM)Tito Isn't restricting fuel by fitting smaller injectors just the worst thing to do? If the injector can't handle the flow the pump wil seize. Why would you want to restrict flow anyway? It's better to give as much fuel al possible in a (relative) short therm. Preferably you want your max pressure/injection/heat soak at 8 - 10 degrees after tdc. Longer injection duration gives less efficiency and wastes energy in the form of heat trough the exhaust.
Tito is right, if you restrict fuel with the injectors you can risk seizing the pump elements.
Also, remember that when comparing a cummins to a om606 injector, you are talking about a DI injector vs IDI. IDI injectors are totally different than DI injectors.
Barrote,
you seem very skeptical, but a 12mm P7100 can turn in excess of 5k rpms and supply around 500cc/1000. To make it fast revving like an om606 a lighter set of governor weights would need to be fitted to the pump. Do I think its overkill? yes, but like the OP said P7100 pumps are a dime a dozen in the US, and super "M" pumps are not. M pumps in general are actually pretty scarce, especially for 617.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
How about restricting rack travel? Would that be a feasible way of 'turning down' the pump?
As for revving, these are the 5500k governor springs, which seem to be highest aftermarket springs available:
http://www.xtremediesel.com/ddp-compgsk-...rings.aspx
However, people have put even stiffer springs in the governor, usually using valve springs. There are individuals who have been revving the pump to 6000-7000rpm without issues.
Another cool thing about the pump are all the fuel plates available, which greatly impact the fueling 'map' of the pump along the rpm range.
![[Image: p_pump02.jpg]](http://dieseldatabase.com/images_articles/p_pump02.jpg)
![[Image: allplateprofiles.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h179/silvo_p/allplateprofiles.jpg)
![[Image: 1004dp_14%2Bbosch_p7100_injection_pump%2..._plate.jpg]](http://image.trucktrend.com/f/26969348+re0+ar0+st0/1004dp_14%2Bbosch_p7100_injection_pump%2Badjustable_fuel_plate.jpg)
Not to mention there are aftermarket replacements for pretty much every part on the pump, including cams, racks, and even complete new billet housings.
http://rocken-tech.com/Pumps_Inline.html
Irony.cc
Thank you for the input. Sounds like it was quite a stupid idea to mess with the injectors.
How about restricting rack travel? Would that be a feasible way of 'turning down' the pump?
As for revving, these are the 5500k governor springs, which seem to be highest aftermarket springs available:
http://www.xtremediesel.com/ddp-compgsk-...rings.aspx
However, people have put even stiffer springs in the governor, usually using valve springs. There are individuals who have been revving the pump to 6000-7000rpm without issues.
Another cool thing about the pump are all the fuel plates available, which greatly impact the fueling 'map' of the pump along the rpm range.
Not to mention there are aftermarket replacements for pretty much every part on the pump, including cams, racks, and even complete new billet housings.
http://rocken-tech.com/Pumps_Inline.html
Irony.cc
While the springs will allow you to run higher rpm, the high weight of the governor weights will hinder the engine from revving as quickly as could be possible, and would allow a better fueling curve at the upper rpms. In the tractor pulling world we use a Couple different weights of governor weights. Heavier weights allow a hard fueling cutoff, but won't allow the engine to rev up quite as much as a lighter set would. rotating mass has a lot to do with it
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
The fuel plates,tuning the AFC, and possibly a custom rack plug would all help to "detune" it.
While the springs will allow you to run higher rpm, the high weight of the governor weights will hinder the engine from revving as quickly as could be possible, and would allow a better fueling curve at the upper rpms. In the tractor pulling world we use a Couple different weights of governor weights. Heavier weights allow a hard fueling cutoff, but won't allow the engine to rev up quite as much as a lighter set would. rotating mass has a lot to do with it
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Though at first I would be happy to just get it running well. Revving it to the max would be something to tackle later on.
I was curious about what a different rack plug could do as well. I know there are aftermarket ones with a deeper cavity to allow for more rack travel, so I wondered what would happen if I just used a regular bolt or plug that does not have any cavity in it.
Though while on the subject of rack travel, I am interested in how the shutoff lever operates. As far as I know, it shuts the pump off by pulling the rack backward, is that correct? If that is the case, I am curious what would happen if I made an adjustable rod to keep the shutoff lever partially engaged. If this worked, it would very easy to adjust for any amount of fuel desired. However, I am not sure if the partially engaged shutoff could potentially cause any damage if the pump was continuously operated like that.
Irony.cc
Did not know the bit about the governor weights, thank you for bringing it up. Are lighter weights something that is readily available?
Though at first I would be happy to just get it running well. Revving it to the max would be something to tackle later on.
I was curious about what a different rack plug could do as well. I know there are aftermarket ones with a deeper cavity to allow for more rack travel, so I wondered what would happen if I just used a regular bolt or plug that does not have any cavity in it.
Though while on the subject of rack travel, I am interested in how the shutoff lever operates. As far as I know, it shuts the pump off by pulling the rack backward, is that correct? If that is the case, I am curious what would happen if I made an adjustable rod to keep the shutoff lever partially engaged. If this worked, it would very easy to adjust for any amount of fuel desired. However, I am not sure if the partially engaged shutoff could potentially cause any damage if the pump was continuously operated like that.
Irony.cc
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Although there are different weight governors from the factory for different configurations, most of the ones I have seen are custom made by pump shops
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
you seem very skeptical, but a 12mm P7100 can turn in excess of 5k rpms and supply around 500cc/1000. To make it fast revving like an om606 a lighter set of governor weights would need to be fitted to the pump. Do I think its overkill? yes, but like the OP said P7100 pumps are a dime a dozen in the US, and super "M" pumps are not. M pumps in general are actually pretty scarce, especially for 617.
Ok,
i´m not skepticall i just pointed out some things that have to be changed in order to have a P type pump rollin 6k, and does the already available componentes hold that much... i´m tired of watching VE heads seizing at 6k... never seen a M seizing but it can happen.
i´m working in a conversion from a regular M for 60X engines to work on the 617 that is something that will be easyer to do than having a P converted for that purpose.... for 60X engines there´s plenty of info on getting them past the 80hp cylinder, so going harder is just a question of mod something else besides the fuel injected....
if u look at my post the 4 valve 602.98X u´ll see that besides fuel i´m also interested in stage 3 head, wich i belive will give me the extra 20HP.
sometimes the twist is not a question of fuel, is something else as well
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Barrote,
you seem very skeptical, but a 12mm P7100 can turn in excess of 5k rpms and supply around 500cc/1000. To make it fast revving like an om606 a lighter set of governor weights would need to be fitted to the pump. Do I think its overkill? yes, but like the OP said P7100 pumps are a dime a dozen in the US, and super "M" pumps are not. M pumps in general are actually pretty scarce, especially for 617.
Ok,
i´m not skepticall i just pointed out some things that have to be changed in order to have a P type pump rollin 6k, and does the already available componentes hold that much... i´m tired of watching VE heads seizing at 6k... never seen a M seizing but it can happen.
i´m working in a conversion from a regular M for 60X engines to work on the 617 that is something that will be easyer to do than having a P converted for that purpose.... for 60X engines there´s plenty of info on getting them past the 80hp cylinder, so going harder is just a question of mod something else besides the fuel injected....
if u look at my post the 4 valve 602.98X u´ll see that besides fuel i´m also interested in stage 3 head, wich i belive will give me the extra 20HP.
sometimes the twist is not a question of fuel, is something else as well
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
1 Guest(s)
1 Guest(s)