Straight WVO
Straight WVO
01-01-2010, 06:42 PM
#51
This post was last modified: 01-01-2010, 06:43 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
01-01-2010, 06:42 PM
#51
Thats the exact same thing. At bare minimum, you need a two tank conversion to run WVO no matter the climate.
02-27-2010, 03:36 PM
#52
(01-01-2010, 06:42 PM)ForcedInduction Thats the exact same thing. At bare minimum, you need a two tank conversion to run WVO no matter the climate.
Nah, you dont....
Through going on 15 Years of running alt. fuels, The Biggest Issue with WVO, is MOISTURE!
VERY very few guys--even those who've been doing it for years, DRY their WVO PROPERLY....
The Result?
Stuffed up I.P. elements within 3-5 years--If you're lucky, --Within 6 months if you're not.....
Even WVO, thats been filtered to 0.5 Micron, is Absolutely Sparkling-Clear, can and does on average contain 1 to 2 % Moisture. This is slow death to the I.P.!
A OM.61x and OM60x engine, Correctly Prepaired can be run trouble free indefinately on VO.--And, with a Single-tank......
--Just ask the Germans, They've been doing it for 20 years and longer....
Alastair E
02-27-2010, 03:36 PM #52(01-01-2010, 06:42 PM)ForcedInduction Thats the exact same thing. At bare minimum, you need a two tank conversion to run WVO no matter the climate.
Nah, you dont....
Through going on 15 Years of running alt. fuels, The Biggest Issue with WVO, is MOISTURE!
VERY very few guys--even those who've been doing it for years, DRY their WVO PROPERLY....
The Result?
Stuffed up I.P. elements within 3-5 years--If you're lucky, --Within 6 months if you're not.....
Even WVO, thats been filtered to 0.5 Micron, is Absolutely Sparkling-Clear, can and does on average contain 1 to 2 % Moisture. This is slow death to the I.P.!
A OM.61x and OM60x engine, Correctly Prepaired can be run trouble free indefinately on VO.--And, with a Single-tank......
--Just ask the Germans, They've been doing it for 20 years and longer....
02-27-2010, 06:58 PM
#53
(02-27-2010, 03:36 PM)Alastair E Nah, you dont....Yeah, actually, you do. VO is too thick when cold and having a bunch of heaters is pretty pointless if you're starting the engine on cold VO. You need a diesel tank to run on until the VO is up to temperature and its "safe" to switch.
Quote:Even WVO, thats been filtered to 0.5 Micron, is Absolutely Sparkling-Clear, can and does on average contain 1 to 2 % Moisture. This is slow death to the I.P.!Moisture is the least of the causes there.
ForcedInduction
02-27-2010, 06:58 PM
#53
(02-27-2010, 03:36 PM)Alastair E Nah, you dont....Yeah, actually, you do. VO is too thick when cold and having a bunch of heaters is pretty pointless if you're starting the engine on cold VO. You need a diesel tank to run on until the VO is up to temperature and its "safe" to switch.
Quote:Even WVO, thats been filtered to 0.5 Micron, is Absolutely Sparkling-Clear, can and does on average contain 1 to 2 % Moisture. This is slow death to the I.P.!Moisture is the least of the causes there.
02-28-2010, 02:25 PM
#54
Why do you think, that you Have to use a Twin-Tank system on a Suitably Modified engine...
(BTW I'm not talking heat-exchangers or all that rubbish--Ive Never used a fuel heater or H.E in 15 years, I'm talking Injectors and timing differences--All thats needed in climates above say, 0 deg. C ...)
I have never used a Twin-Tank with an OM.61x or 601/2 series engines...Never had any issues....
I know what you're gonna say,--Ring-Gumming, Loss of Compression, --Engine totally stuffed!
This just Doesn't Happen IF The Engine Is Prepared Properly--(Very few actually DO prepare the motor Properly, Hence your rather black view of the subject,--and who can blame you seeing you have encountered so many issues caused by idiots....)
I agree that the DOHC OM.606 and its friends have issues if run ST, but not 'our proper' M.B. engines, if prepared for VO....
--Even then, on these less suitable DOHC engines they can be easily 'repaired' by the use of Water-Injection.--Works a treat, Blow-by due to gummed rings enough to blow out the dipstick to a Neg Crancase Pressure,--In 50 Miles!!
This post was last modified: 02-28-2010, 02:33 PM by Alastair E.
Alastair E
02-28-2010, 02:25 PM #54Hi Lance-
Why do you think, that you Have to use a Twin-Tank system on a Suitably Modified engine...
(BTW I'm not talking heat-exchangers or all that rubbish--Ive Never used a fuel heater or H.E in 15 years, I'm talking Injectors and timing differences--All thats needed in climates above say, 0 deg. C ...)
I have never used a Twin-Tank with an OM.61x or 601/2 series engines...Never had any issues....
I know what you're gonna say,--Ring-Gumming, Loss of Compression, --Engine totally stuffed!
This just Doesn't Happen IF The Engine Is Prepared Properly--(Very few actually DO prepare the motor Properly, Hence your rather black view of the subject,--and who can blame you seeing you have encountered so many issues caused by idiots....)
I agree that the DOHC OM.606 and its friends have issues if run ST, but not 'our proper' M.B. engines, if prepared for VO....
--Even then, on these less suitable DOHC engines they can be easily 'repaired' by the use of Water-Injection.--Works a treat, Blow-by due to gummed rings enough to blow out the dipstick to a Neg Crancase Pressure,--In 50 Miles!!
06-19-2010, 01:39 PM
#55
down the injectors heat.
Could we use 2 T connector to shunt the return diesel back into the line from the tank, that way the new fuel will be preheated by the return line, I dont think it will be very warm, but at least is not stone cold from outside temp.
I have F up a 7.3 inj pump not sure if its old age it has 300,000 miles or 500km according to inj rebuilder these pump only last 100,000 miles or less , one day start very hard, one weekend it failed to start alltogether, I change the lift pump but no change, eventually I have to get another inj pump.
The other Sds seem to be OK.
Just came into my head the other day, diesels have a return line, which suppose to cool
down the injectors heat.
Could we use 2 T connector to shunt the return diesel back into the line from the tank, that way the new fuel will be preheated by the return line, I dont think it will be very warm, but at least is not stone cold from outside temp.
I have F up a 7.3 inj pump not sure if its old age it has 300,000 miles or 500km according to inj rebuilder these pump only last 100,000 miles or less , one day start very hard, one weekend it failed to start alltogether, I change the lift pump but no change, eventually I have to get another inj pump.
The other Sds seem to be OK.
06-19-2010, 02:21 PM
#56
(06-19-2010, 01:39 PM)blowfish Just came into my head the other day, diesels have a return line, which suppose to cool down the injectors heat.No the return system is primarily for automatic air bleeding. Big vehicles (such as the city buses I work on) have no return circuit and do totally fine without, even with high heat generating systems such as common-rail injection.
Quote:that way the new fuel will be preheated by the return lineThe hottest it would ever be is 230*f from contact with the injection pump's lubricating/cooling oil, if you looped the return so it maintains contact long enough to get hot. The Lift pump moves so much excess fuel through the system it doesn't hang around long.
ForcedInduction
06-19-2010, 02:21 PM
#56
(06-19-2010, 01:39 PM)blowfish Just came into my head the other day, diesels have a return line, which suppose to cool down the injectors heat.No the return system is primarily for automatic air bleeding. Big vehicles (such as the city buses I work on) have no return circuit and do totally fine without, even with high heat generating systems such as common-rail injection.
Quote:that way the new fuel will be preheated by the return lineThe hottest it would ever be is 230*f from contact with the injection pump's lubricating/cooling oil, if you looped the return so it maintains contact long enough to get hot. The Lift pump moves so much excess fuel through the system it doesn't hang around long.
09-09-2010, 11:43 PM
#57
(02-27-2010, 03:36 PM)Alastair E Through going on 15 Years of running alt. fuels, The Biggest Issue with WVO, is MOISTURE!
VERY very few guys--even those who've been doing it for years, DRY their WVO PROPERLY....
Even WVO, thats been filtered to 0.5 Micron, is Absolutely Sparkling-Clear, can and does on average contain 1 to 2 % Moisture. This is slow death to the I.P.!
Alastair, would you care to share this drying method you speak of?
How does one properly dry wvo?
(02-28-2010, 02:25 PM)Alastair E I'm talking Injectors and timing differences--All thats needed in climates above say, 0 deg. CWhat kind of timing differences are you talking about? On the IP or?
As for the injectors what pop pressure do you reccomend?
This post was last modified: 09-09-2010, 11:47 PM by garage.
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
(02-27-2010, 03:36 PM)Alastair E Through going on 15 Years of running alt. fuels, The Biggest Issue with WVO, is MOISTURE!
VERY very few guys--even those who've been doing it for years, DRY their WVO PROPERLY....
Even WVO, thats been filtered to 0.5 Micron, is Absolutely Sparkling-Clear, can and does on average contain 1 to 2 % Moisture. This is slow death to the I.P.!
Alastair, would you care to share this drying method you speak of?
How does one properly dry wvo?
(02-28-2010, 02:25 PM)Alastair E I'm talking Injectors and timing differences--All thats needed in climates above say, 0 deg. CWhat kind of timing differences are you talking about? On the IP or?
As for the injectors what pop pressure do you reccomend?
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
09-10-2010, 12:10 AM
#58
just going to throw my hat in here - i use cold upflow and have had great success removing all the water and nasties, without much in the way of technology. i've got conversion parts i need to install but running straight into my main tank right now and the engine is loving it.
09-10-2010, 09:15 AM
#60
(09-10-2010, 05:35 AM)ForcedInduction BioDiesel is the only option that will not harm the engine.
I know forced..i know
(09-10-2010, 12:10 AM)stan just going to throw my hat in here - i use cold upflow and have had great success removing all the water and nasties, without much in the way of technology. i've got conversion parts i need to install but running straight into my main tank right now and the engine is loving it.
Hmnn imma have to look into this cold upflow you speak of.
We usually let our oil soak in the sun for a week and let some (would hope all) of the water evaporate, then they go through 2differnt stages of gravity fed filtration down to 1micron, then the oil is let to sit and settle, pumped into a new barrel and then ready to be used.
With a a HE and fuel line heaters we have an 83 300D who SO FAR is loving life going on close to 30,000 miles.
My 240 has no mods done for veggie yet, but i usaually run it on a 50/50 mix of diesel/veg.
This post was last modified: 09-10-2010, 09:20 AM by garage.
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
(09-10-2010, 05:35 AM)ForcedInduction BioDiesel is the only option that will not harm the engine.
I know forced..i know
(09-10-2010, 12:10 AM)stan just going to throw my hat in here - i use cold upflow and have had great success removing all the water and nasties, without much in the way of technology. i've got conversion parts i need to install but running straight into my main tank right now and the engine is loving it.
Hmnn imma have to look into this cold upflow you speak of.
We usually let our oil soak in the sun for a week and let some (would hope all) of the water evaporate, then they go through 2differnt stages of gravity fed filtration down to 1micron, then the oil is let to sit and settle, pumped into a new barrel and then ready to be used.
With a a HE and fuel line heaters we have an 83 300D who SO FAR is loving life going on close to 30,000 miles.
My 240 has no mods done for veggie yet, but i usaually run it on a 50/50 mix of diesel/veg.
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
09-11-2010, 04:19 PM
#64
(09-10-2010, 09:07 PM)stan why would you waste a small piece of the internet to post that?Why did you just waste some of our server capacity to make a completely useless post?
If you don't like factual information, don't read it.
This post was last modified: 09-11-2010, 04:19 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-11-2010, 04:19 PM
#64
(09-10-2010, 09:07 PM)stan why would you waste a small piece of the internet to post that?Why did you just waste some of our server capacity to make a completely useless post?
If you don't like factual information, don't read it.
09-12-2010, 08:06 AM
#65
(06-19-2010, 01:39 PM)blowfish Just came into my head the other day, diesels have a return line, which suppose to cool
down the injectors heat.
Could we use 2 T connector to shunt the return diesel back into the line from the tank, that way the new fuel will be preheated by the return line, I dont think it will be very warm, but at least is not stone cold from outside temp.
I have F up a 7.3 inj pump not sure if its old age it has 300,000 miles or 500km according to inj rebuilder these pump only last 100,000 miles or less , one day start very hard, one weekend it failed to start alltogether, I change the lift pump but no change, eventually I have to get another inj pump.
The other Sds seem to be OK.
The looped return is a fairly standard VO system mod, most of the commercially available systems have some kind of loop back into supply. I actually had twin temp gauges on my supply and return on my 617 and it averaged a 10 degree jump in temp by looping back into supply. Not a huge difference, but certainly a measureable positive return on the plumbing change. Just as long as you have some way to unloop it for air issues.
7.3 IDI injection pumps do not last all that long with ULSD. Chances are it was ready to be changed anyway. I have changed several where the damage was clearly a lack of lubrication, which would be the last problem with VO, a fuel which would actually make the pump last longer. The rotary pump uses the fuel for lubrication, and the process to remove sulfur from the ULSD also removes other lubricity agents of the fuel.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(06-19-2010, 01:39 PM)blowfish Just came into my head the other day, diesels have a return line, which suppose to cool
down the injectors heat.
Could we use 2 T connector to shunt the return diesel back into the line from the tank, that way the new fuel will be preheated by the return line, I dont think it will be very warm, but at least is not stone cold from outside temp.
I have F up a 7.3 inj pump not sure if its old age it has 300,000 miles or 500km according to inj rebuilder these pump only last 100,000 miles or less , one day start very hard, one weekend it failed to start alltogether, I change the lift pump but no change, eventually I have to get another inj pump.
The other Sds seem to be OK.
The looped return is a fairly standard VO system mod, most of the commercially available systems have some kind of loop back into supply. I actually had twin temp gauges on my supply and return on my 617 and it averaged a 10 degree jump in temp by looping back into supply. Not a huge difference, but certainly a measureable positive return on the plumbing change. Just as long as you have some way to unloop it for air issues.
7.3 IDI injection pumps do not last all that long with ULSD. Chances are it was ready to be changed anyway. I have changed several where the damage was clearly a lack of lubrication, which would be the last problem with VO, a fuel which would actually make the pump last longer. The rotary pump uses the fuel for lubrication, and the process to remove sulfur from the ULSD also removes other lubricity agents of the fuel.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
09-12-2010, 09:57 AM
#66
(09-12-2010, 08:06 AM)dropnosky Just as long as you have some way to unloop it for air issues.
Drill and tap 1/8NPT into the return line banjo for a bleed screw.
(From the Baldwin filter upgrade)
Quote:a fuel which would actually make the pump last longer.But unfortunately can't be used on public roads.
Even B2 Biodiesel will provide all the lubrication it could ever need, while being legal to use and not harmful to the engine.
ForcedInduction
09-12-2010, 09:57 AM
#66
(09-12-2010, 08:06 AM)dropnosky Just as long as you have some way to unloop it for air issues.
Drill and tap 1/8NPT into the return line banjo for a bleed screw.
(From the Baldwin filter upgrade)
Quote:a fuel which would actually make the pump last longer.But unfortunately can't be used on public roads.
Even B2 Biodiesel will provide all the lubrication it could ever need, while being legal to use and not harmful to the engine.
09-12-2010, 10:34 AM
#67
(09-12-2010, 09:57 AM)ForcedInduction Drill and tap 1/8NPT into the return line banjo for a bleed screw.
(From the Baldwin filter upgrade)
But unfortunately can't be used on public roads.
Even B2 Biodiesel will provide all the lubrication it could ever need, while being legal to use and not harmful to the engine.
I controlled the return line with an electric valve so I could return it to stock plumbing from the cabin in the event of an air issue.
You and the EPA hard line.
Ok, according to the EPA, VO as a fuel is illegal because it is not "certified" yet by the EPA because it might produce "increased emissions". Yet, as posted before, emissions are cleaner- http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/..._aces.html This is simply one published example, Ive done it with similar results on my own car as well, as have others.
the EPA law says this (waste oil referring to VO)- Because of the potential for increased emissions, it is considered unlawful tampering to convert a vehicle designed for diesel fuel to operate on waste oil without EPA certification. To date, EPA has not certified any conversions for waste oils. Even with EPA certification, conversions may violate the terms of the vehicle warranty
Sooo, there is ample emissions evidence out there showing VO to produce less harmful emissions than diesel, yet the law in effect is because of the potential for increased emissions. Sounds to me like a VERY strong case. The law itself invites certification.
Whats NOT out there is a large number of cars of all the exact same type with all the exact same VO system on them, which the EPA needs to certify a system, and or a fuel. I read the EPA steps to certification, and I can't imagine a single small business or grass roots organization being able to create such a broad spectrum of identical test subjects easily, no wonder it has not been done.
Care to guess when the EPA will have a national crack down on people independently using a cleaner emissions alternative fuel from local renewable resources? Ill hold my breath. It would take a singularly unimaginative bureaucrat to not see what a false position that is.
Guess what else is illegal? "Removal of and tampering with emissions equipment." Thats right, you are not supposed to play with the EGR, it must remain in operation and cannot be modified from factory spec.
How can you continuously cite the EPA VO regulation and ignore the regulations concerning EGR, which are VERY clear on illegality? I don't believe for a minute that you are someone who would not violate an EPA regulation, otherwise you would not be modding your car, which means that the EPA argument against VO is just an avenue of attack since you hate the concept of VO. However, its not an overly strong argument, since even on this post there is emissions evidence showing the EPA rule to be unfounded.
This post was last modified: 09-12-2010, 10:40 AM by JB3.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(09-12-2010, 09:57 AM)ForcedInduction Drill and tap 1/8NPT into the return line banjo for a bleed screw.
(From the Baldwin filter upgrade)
But unfortunately can't be used on public roads.
Even B2 Biodiesel will provide all the lubrication it could ever need, while being legal to use and not harmful to the engine.
I controlled the return line with an electric valve so I could return it to stock plumbing from the cabin in the event of an air issue.
You and the EPA hard line.
Ok, according to the EPA, VO as a fuel is illegal because it is not "certified" yet by the EPA because it might produce "increased emissions". Yet, as posted before, emissions are cleaner- http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/..._aces.html This is simply one published example, Ive done it with similar results on my own car as well, as have others.
the EPA law says this (waste oil referring to VO)- Because of the potential for increased emissions, it is considered unlawful tampering to convert a vehicle designed for diesel fuel to operate on waste oil without EPA certification. To date, EPA has not certified any conversions for waste oils. Even with EPA certification, conversions may violate the terms of the vehicle warranty
Sooo, there is ample emissions evidence out there showing VO to produce less harmful emissions than diesel, yet the law in effect is because of the potential for increased emissions. Sounds to me like a VERY strong case. The law itself invites certification.
Whats NOT out there is a large number of cars of all the exact same type with all the exact same VO system on them, which the EPA needs to certify a system, and or a fuel. I read the EPA steps to certification, and I can't imagine a single small business or grass roots organization being able to create such a broad spectrum of identical test subjects easily, no wonder it has not been done.
Care to guess when the EPA will have a national crack down on people independently using a cleaner emissions alternative fuel from local renewable resources? Ill hold my breath. It would take a singularly unimaginative bureaucrat to not see what a false position that is.
Guess what else is illegal? "Removal of and tampering with emissions equipment." Thats right, you are not supposed to play with the EGR, it must remain in operation and cannot be modified from factory spec.
How can you continuously cite the EPA VO regulation and ignore the regulations concerning EGR, which are VERY clear on illegality? I don't believe for a minute that you are someone who would not violate an EPA regulation, otherwise you would not be modding your car, which means that the EPA argument against VO is just an avenue of attack since you hate the concept of VO. However, its not an overly strong argument, since even on this post there is emissions evidence showing the EPA rule to be unfounded.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
09-12-2010, 11:19 AM
#68
(09-12-2010, 10:34 AM)dropnosky Ok, according to the EPA, VO as a fuel is illegal because it is not "certified" yet by the EPA because it might produce "increased emissions". Yet, as posted before, emissions are cleanerGreat. Then figure out how to make every kind of VO consistent, go pass the EPA's certification testing and the issue will be resolved.
Quote:Sooo, there is ample emissions evidence out there showing VO to produce less harmful emissions than dieselSorry, that is false. You are missing the fact that VO leaves residue in engines which causes a degradation in compression and lifespan, which has a major effect on the pollution released.
Quote:Whats NOT out there is a large number of cars of all the exact same type with all the exact same VO system on themThats only 1/2 the issue. VO has many different forms and no two users oils are the same. You have the base type of oil (Canola, Peanut, coconut, animal fat, etc), how long it was used (burnt), contamination (food fat, bin cleaners, etc), age (decomposition), heat (mixers, single tank or two tank) and a host of other variables.
Thats why Biodiesel was invented, is completely solves all of VO's problems. There is no reason to use VO because of that.
Quote:Care to guess when the EPA will have a national crack down on people independently using a cleaner emissions alternative fuel from local renewable resources?Care to guess when the DEA will crackdown on all the illegal "medical" marijuana distributors and users in Colorado?
Answer: Its not monetarily feasible. The cost of rounding up all the violators, getting evidence and then clogging the court system wouldn't be profitable compared to major busts (people using thousands of gallons of off-road diesel) and mass minor citations (speeders).
Quote:Guess what else is illegal? "Removal of and tampering with emissions equipment." Thats right, you are not supposed to play with the EGR, it must remain in operation and cannot be modified from factory spec.Good thing both my cars are exempt.
LINK
The vehicle discussed earlier, a Ford 7.3 IDI, isn't.
Quote:How can you continuously cite the EPA VO regulation and ignore the regulations concerning EGR, which are VERY clear on illegality?How do you not understand the laws, yet pretend to?
Quote:since even on this post there is emissions evidence showing the EPA rule to be unfounded.Sorry, thats false information.
Here is an e-mail I received a few years ago.
Quote:Hi xxxx, Feel free to report any violations to our Enforcement Office contact, Jack McLaughlin. Jack is cc'd on this e-mail so you have his e-mail
address. ( Mclaughlin.Jackj@epamail.epa.gov )
Thanks!
Rebecca
Rebecca Russo
EPA Region 8
Air Quality Planning & Management Unit
Ph: (303) 312-6757
How would one go about reporting violations?
On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:22 AM, Russo.Rebecca@epamail.epa.gov wrote:
Hello xxxx,
Thank you for your e-mail concerning using waste vegetable oil or
straight vegetable oil as a fuel to power your diesel vehicle.
Waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil cannot legally be used
in vehicles. Raw vegetable oil or recycled greases (also called waste
cooking oil) that have not been processed into esters are not
biodiesel, and are not registered by EPA for legal use in vehicles. In addition,
vehicles converted to use these oils would likely need to be certified
by the EPA; to date EPA has not certified any conversions. These
conversions may also violate the terms of the vehicle warranty. For
more information on the certification process, please visit EPA's Web site
at: www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/cisd0602.pdf
Biodiesel (for example B20) is a great fueling option. You can find
information on biodiesel at our website: http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandgo/do...diesel.htm
Also, please find below a link to biodiesel.org and a fact sheet on
the difference between biodiesel and vegetable oil. Using straight
vegetable oil in your vehicle can harm your vehicle and negate your
vehicle warranty.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/
If you have any further questions, please feel free to give me a
call at 303-312-6757.
Rebecca Russo
EPA Region 8
Air Quality Planning & Management Unit
Ph: (303) 312-6757
Hello,
Your email reached the US EPA Region 8 Environmental Information
Service Center (EISC). The EISC information database provides the following
listing.
BIODIESEL FUEL Jeff Kimes (303) 312-6445 Rebecca Russo
(303) 312-6757
You may wish to contact Jeff or Rebecca at the above email addresses.
They may be able to provide the information you seek or direct you
to an appropriate source.
A-name xxxx
B-email xxxx@xxxx.net
E-city Federal Heights
F-county Jefferson
G-state Colorado
H-zip code 80260
I-Web page address
J-comments
What is the legality of using Waste Vegetable Oil (from restaurants)
or Straight Vegetable Oil (Off the store shelf) as a fuel to power my
Diesel passenger car? Is it legal to modify the fuel system in order
to use the fuel?
I'm wanting to know the EPA's stand on it as I am not sure if WVO/
SVO is approved to be used as an on-road fuel.
Thank You,
xxxx
This post was last modified: 09-12-2010, 11:22 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-12-2010, 11:19 AM
#68
(09-12-2010, 10:34 AM)dropnosky Ok, according to the EPA, VO as a fuel is illegal because it is not "certified" yet by the EPA because it might produce "increased emissions". Yet, as posted before, emissions are cleanerGreat. Then figure out how to make every kind of VO consistent, go pass the EPA's certification testing and the issue will be resolved.
Quote:Sooo, there is ample emissions evidence out there showing VO to produce less harmful emissions than dieselSorry, that is false. You are missing the fact that VO leaves residue in engines which causes a degradation in compression and lifespan, which has a major effect on the pollution released.
Quote:Whats NOT out there is a large number of cars of all the exact same type with all the exact same VO system on themThats only 1/2 the issue. VO has many different forms and no two users oils are the same. You have the base type of oil (Canola, Peanut, coconut, animal fat, etc), how long it was used (burnt), contamination (food fat, bin cleaners, etc), age (decomposition), heat (mixers, single tank or two tank) and a host of other variables.
Thats why Biodiesel was invented, is completely solves all of VO's problems. There is no reason to use VO because of that.
Quote:Care to guess when the EPA will have a national crack down on people independently using a cleaner emissions alternative fuel from local renewable resources?Care to guess when the DEA will crackdown on all the illegal "medical" marijuana distributors and users in Colorado?
Answer: Its not monetarily feasible. The cost of rounding up all the violators, getting evidence and then clogging the court system wouldn't be profitable compared to major busts (people using thousands of gallons of off-road diesel) and mass minor citations (speeders).
Quote:Guess what else is illegal? "Removal of and tampering with emissions equipment." Thats right, you are not supposed to play with the EGR, it must remain in operation and cannot be modified from factory spec.Good thing both my cars are exempt.
LINK
The vehicle discussed earlier, a Ford 7.3 IDI, isn't.
Quote:How can you continuously cite the EPA VO regulation and ignore the regulations concerning EGR, which are VERY clear on illegality?How do you not understand the laws, yet pretend to?
Quote:since even on this post there is emissions evidence showing the EPA rule to be unfounded.Sorry, thats false information.
Here is an e-mail I received a few years ago.
Quote:Hi xxxx, Feel free to report any violations to our Enforcement Office contact, Jack McLaughlin. Jack is cc'd on this e-mail so you have his e-mail
address. ( Mclaughlin.Jackj@epamail.epa.gov )
Thanks!
Rebecca
Rebecca Russo
EPA Region 8
Air Quality Planning & Management Unit
Ph: (303) 312-6757
How would one go about reporting violations?
On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:22 AM, Russo.Rebecca@epamail.epa.gov wrote:
Hello xxxx,
Thank you for your e-mail concerning using waste vegetable oil or
straight vegetable oil as a fuel to power your diesel vehicle.
Waste vegetable oil or straight vegetable oil cannot legally be used
in vehicles. Raw vegetable oil or recycled greases (also called waste
cooking oil) that have not been processed into esters are not
biodiesel, and are not registered by EPA for legal use in vehicles. In addition,
vehicles converted to use these oils would likely need to be certified
by the EPA; to date EPA has not certified any conversions. These
conversions may also violate the terms of the vehicle warranty. For
more information on the certification process, please visit EPA's Web site
at: www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/cisd0602.pdf
Biodiesel (for example B20) is a great fueling option. You can find
information on biodiesel at our website: http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandgo/do...diesel.htm
Also, please find below a link to biodiesel.org and a fact sheet on
the difference between biodiesel and vegetable oil. Using straight
vegetable oil in your vehicle can harm your vehicle and negate your
vehicle warranty.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/
If you have any further questions, please feel free to give me a
call at 303-312-6757.
Rebecca Russo
EPA Region 8
Air Quality Planning & Management Unit
Ph: (303) 312-6757
Hello,
Your email reached the US EPA Region 8 Environmental Information
Service Center (EISC). The EISC information database provides the following
listing.
BIODIESEL FUEL Jeff Kimes (303) 312-6445 Rebecca Russo
(303) 312-6757
You may wish to contact Jeff or Rebecca at the above email addresses.
They may be able to provide the information you seek or direct you
to an appropriate source.
A-name xxxx
B-email xxxx@xxxx.net
E-city Federal Heights
F-county Jefferson
G-state Colorado
H-zip code 80260
I-Web page address
J-comments
What is the legality of using Waste Vegetable Oil (from restaurants)
or Straight Vegetable Oil (Off the store shelf) as a fuel to power my
Diesel passenger car? Is it legal to modify the fuel system in order
to use the fuel?
I'm wanting to know the EPA's stand on it as I am not sure if WVO/
SVO is approved to be used as an on-road fuel.
Thank You,
xxxx
09-12-2010, 12:24 PM
#69
For you its always an uncompromising black and white, never any shades of gray, and yet the laws of this country are enacted and enforced through a system of compromise by lawmakers. When a law needs work, we have the ability to change it if need be. I have said again and again that this VO industry is new, things may or may not develop. Its a fluid situation, certainly not black and white.
This is off topic, but you still seem to believe that all weed in CO is distributed only by a huge evil conspiracy of "medical marijuana distributors". Open your eyes man, most marijuana is sold illegally by your friendly neighborhood dealers, its everywhere, and only the most popular recreational "drug" in the world. Theres a huge evil conspiracy, but its the drug trade combined with the "wink, wink" attitude for most of the population concerning marijuana. As far as im concerned, just another reason it should be legal and taxed instead of wasting my tax dollars trying to kill the while elephant in the room.
back on topic, As usual, we are both quoting the same law, yet I "pretend to understand" the laws, and a link to an EPA emissions VO test is "false information".
Im not understanding how you interpret the import link as your cars are exempt. Was this not the question that was asked?
What are the requirements for importing classic or antique vehicles / cars for personal use?
Are both your cars grey market imports, or sold in this country by MB in compliance of federal law?
It seems to me that you are loosely interpreting a response that is not related to vehicles commercially sold in this country.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Lol, if there was ever a clearer demonstration of your personality, its how your email correspondence with the EPA officials goes from, "Im interested in this, what are the laws concerning it" to "How do I report violations" in the blink of an eye. For you its always an uncompromising black and white, never any shades of gray, and yet the laws of this country are enacted and enforced through a system of compromise by lawmakers. When a law needs work, we have the ability to change it if need be.
I have said again and again that this VO industry is new, things may or may not develop. Its a fluid situation, certainly not black and white.
This is off topic, but you still seem to believe that all weed in CO is distributed only by a huge evil conspiracy of "medical marijuana distributors". Open your eyes man, most marijuana is sold illegally by your friendly neighborhood dealers, its everywhere, and only the most popular recreational "drug" in the world. Theres a huge evil conspiracy, but its the drug trade combined with the "wink, wink" attitude for most of the population concerning marijuana. As far as im concerned, just another reason it should be legal and taxed instead of wasting my tax dollars trying to kill the while elephant in the room.
back on topic, As usual, we are both quoting the same law, yet I "pretend to understand" the laws, and a link to an EPA emissions VO test is "false information".
Im not understanding how you interpret the import link as your cars are exempt. Was this not the question that was asked?
What are the requirements for importing classic or antique vehicles / cars for personal use?
Are both your cars grey market imports, or sold in this country by MB in compliance of federal law?
It seems to me that you are loosely interpreting a response that is not related to vehicles commercially sold in this country.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
09-12-2010, 07:59 PM
#70
(09-12-2010, 12:24 PM)dropnosky When a law needs work, we have the ability to change it if need be.Then I must repeat myself; if certifying VO is so easy because its cleaner than diesel, why has nobody done it? It seems to me that companies like Lovecraft or Elsbett would see HUGE benefits to making it legal, especially the marketing advantages associated with being the first to do so.
Quote:I have said again and again that this VO industry is newBullspit. Dr. Diesel ran his first successful engine on VO and every generation has converted vehicles or tried mass distribution to some extent. In WWI and WWII Germany damn near ran on vegetable oil, ethanol and wood gas, thats why so many alternative fuel companies started there.
http://lipidlibrary.aocs.org/history/Diesel/index.htm
http://www.extension.org/pages/History_of_Biodiesel
Quote:This is off topic, but you still seem to believe that all weed in CO is distributed only by a huge evil conspiracy of "medical marijuana distributors".They are. As was proven by several investigations, over 90% of applications were fraudulent.
Quote:Open your eyes man, most marijuana is sold illegally by your friendly neighborhood dealers, its everywhere, and only the most popular recreational "drug" in the world.Thats not an excuse.
By your logic its okay for me bring down fireworks from Wyoming because half the neighborhood shoots them off every 4th of July or to steal car radios because its happened to me 3 times.
Quote:back on topic, As usual, we are both quoting the same law, yet I "pretend to understand" the laws, and a link to an EPA emissions VO test is "false information".Please read my prior post.
Quote:Im not understanding how you interpret the import link as your cars are exempt.An imported car is no different than an existing car. Diesels in CO are tested for gross pollution (opacity), not emissions compliance.
Quote:Was this not the question that was asked?That is false. I'm interpenetrating word for word (as highlighted).
What are the requirements for importing classic or antique vehicles / cars for personal use?
It seems to me that you are loosely interpreting a response that is not related to vehicles commercially sold in this country.
This post was last modified: 09-12-2010, 08:01 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-12-2010, 07:59 PM
#70
(09-12-2010, 12:24 PM)dropnosky When a law needs work, we have the ability to change it if need be.Then I must repeat myself; if certifying VO is so easy because its cleaner than diesel, why has nobody done it? It seems to me that companies like Lovecraft or Elsbett would see HUGE benefits to making it legal, especially the marketing advantages associated with being the first to do so.
Quote:I have said again and again that this VO industry is newBullspit. Dr. Diesel ran his first successful engine on VO and every generation has converted vehicles or tried mass distribution to some extent. In WWI and WWII Germany damn near ran on vegetable oil, ethanol and wood gas, thats why so many alternative fuel companies started there.
http://lipidlibrary.aocs.org/history/Diesel/index.htm
http://www.extension.org/pages/History_of_Biodiesel
Quote:This is off topic, but you still seem to believe that all weed in CO is distributed only by a huge evil conspiracy of "medical marijuana distributors".They are. As was proven by several investigations, over 90% of applications were fraudulent.
Quote:Open your eyes man, most marijuana is sold illegally by your friendly neighborhood dealers, its everywhere, and only the most popular recreational "drug" in the world.Thats not an excuse.
By your logic its okay for me bring down fireworks from Wyoming because half the neighborhood shoots them off every 4th of July or to steal car radios because its happened to me 3 times.
Quote:back on topic, As usual, we are both quoting the same law, yet I "pretend to understand" the laws, and a link to an EPA emissions VO test is "false information".Please read my prior post.
Quote:Im not understanding how you interpret the import link as your cars are exempt.An imported car is no different than an existing car. Diesels in CO are tested for gross pollution (opacity), not emissions compliance.
Quote:Was this not the question that was asked?That is false. I'm interpenetrating word for word (as highlighted).
What are the requirements for importing classic or antique vehicles / cars for personal use?
It seems to me that you are loosely interpreting a response that is not related to vehicles commercially sold in this country.
09-12-2010, 09:21 PM
#71
The US is certainly a potential market, but there are far less widespread diesel use here outside of industry. I think we will both agree that Lovecraft is nothing more than a rape of mercedes diesel durability. As far as im concerned, companies like Lovecraft and their campaign of incorrect information and oversimplification are one of the reasons that so many people hate the concept of VO.
The VO industry is new as of commercial widespread interest, and especially in the US. Its only made economic sense here in the last 10 years or so. If you know so much about VO history, why are you so passionately against any kind of alternative fuel experimentation?
No one is saying that certifying VO is "so easy because its cleaner than diesel". Have you read what the EPA requires for certification? I have simply said that the REASON that the EPA has stated its illegal is not founded in fact, and posted a link to an EPA emissions test to back that up. The EPA is a huge bureaucracy, something can pass an EPA test in one place, and yet be technically illegal from the same agency at the same time. One does not invalidate the other in such an organization. You are assuming that the EPA is more efficient than practical.
I can see Elsbett seeing the value in certification, but the cost and difficulty of meeting the EPA requirements with such a technology certainly make it far from "easy", even for a larger company, and certainly for a foreign company breaking into another market with a longstanding shaky diesel history among the general public. We can blame GM for that.
Back to Marijuana-
90% of applications were fraudulent. So? that does not mean that the total number of fraudulent applications represents all sources of marijuana in the state. Thats ridiculous. If you are gonna sell drugs, why would you put in for an application?
My "logic" is simply pragmatic realism. It should be legal, why? because its demonstrably impossible to enforce widespread control of marijuana use, and attempting to do so simply wastes endless tax dollars, while at the same time promoting lawlessness among those who would otherwise be law abiding. This stupid waste of money also makes it harder for legitimate use in medical applications. Don't get started on that not being true, no one would smoke pot if there were no effects to doing so. I can see many medical applications where the ability to get someone high can be useful.
Its a "joke" drug as far as recognizing its illegality, I said on the other thread, walk into any college in the country and tell me im wrong about is availability. Also, do you honestly believe that the presence of marijuana is all from fraudulent medical marijuana applications? Get real. I told you before I had a kid try and sell me some weed door to door last year. I also told you I had a cop landlord who would smoke it with his wife after busting college kids for the same crime.
It does not matter whether I support its use or not, I bet you that we agree on how much we dislike it, but I think its a complete waste of time and tax money that can be applied to trying to eradicate more dangerous drugs. legalize it and tax it, turn it into a source of revenue like tobacco and alcohol.
This post was last modified: 09-12-2010, 09:30 PM by JB3.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
Elsbett is a German company, where controlled rape seed oil is actually a taxed and legal fuel. Completely legit where they are, (although I have heard that recent German regulation has strangled the VO industry there, someone from Europe will have to comment on that).
The US is certainly a potential market, but there are far less widespread diesel use here outside of industry. I think we will both agree that Lovecraft is nothing more than a rape of mercedes diesel durability. As far as im concerned, companies like Lovecraft and their campaign of incorrect information and oversimplification are one of the reasons that so many people hate the concept of VO.
The VO industry is new as of commercial widespread interest, and especially in the US. Its only made economic sense here in the last 10 years or so. If you know so much about VO history, why are you so passionately against any kind of alternative fuel experimentation?
No one is saying that certifying VO is "so easy because its cleaner than diesel". Have you read what the EPA requires for certification? I have simply said that the REASON that the EPA has stated its illegal is not founded in fact, and posted a link to an EPA emissions test to back that up. The EPA is a huge bureaucracy, something can pass an EPA test in one place, and yet be technically illegal from the same agency at the same time. One does not invalidate the other in such an organization. You are assuming that the EPA is more efficient than practical.
I can see Elsbett seeing the value in certification, but the cost and difficulty of meeting the EPA requirements with such a technology certainly make it far from "easy", even for a larger company, and certainly for a foreign company breaking into another market with a longstanding shaky diesel history among the general public. We can blame GM for that.
Back to Marijuana-
90% of applications were fraudulent. So? that does not mean that the total number of fraudulent applications represents all sources of marijuana in the state. Thats ridiculous. If you are gonna sell drugs, why would you put in for an application?
My "logic" is simply pragmatic realism. It should be legal, why? because its demonstrably impossible to enforce widespread control of marijuana use, and attempting to do so simply wastes endless tax dollars, while at the same time promoting lawlessness among those who would otherwise be law abiding. This stupid waste of money also makes it harder for legitimate use in medical applications. Don't get started on that not being true, no one would smoke pot if there were no effects to doing so. I can see many medical applications where the ability to get someone high can be useful.
Its a "joke" drug as far as recognizing its illegality, I said on the other thread, walk into any college in the country and tell me im wrong about is availability. Also, do you honestly believe that the presence of marijuana is all from fraudulent medical marijuana applications? Get real. I told you before I had a kid try and sell me some weed door to door last year. I also told you I had a cop landlord who would smoke it with his wife after busting college kids for the same crime.
It does not matter whether I support its use or not, I bet you that we agree on how much we dislike it, but I think its a complete waste of time and tax money that can be applied to trying to eradicate more dangerous drugs. legalize it and tax it, turn it into a source of revenue like tobacco and alcohol.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
09-13-2010, 06:20 AM
#72
It shows how ludicrous the illegalization of marijuana is. How all the bad effects are myths from bad studies and bad science (FI you should appreciate that) and how much more money is made off it because of it. Drug dealers dont want it legal any more than LEOs. Why? They all make money off it.
This post was last modified: 09-13-2010, 06:21 AM by winmutt.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Its OT but I highly recommend everyone watch The Union. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...4651731007#
It shows how ludicrous the illegalization of marijuana is. How all the bad effects are myths from bad studies and bad science (FI you should appreciate that) and how much more money is made off it because of it. Drug dealers dont want it legal any more than LEOs. Why? They all make money off it.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
09-13-2010, 03:16 PM
#73
(09-13-2010, 06:20 AM)winmutt Its OT but I highly recommend everyone watch The Union. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...4651731007#
It shows how ludicrous the illegalization of marijuana is. How all the bad effects are myths from bad studies and bad science (FI you should appreciate that) and how much more money is made off it because of it. Drug dealers dont want it legal any more than LEOs. Why? They all make money off it.
I second that. Also gives some interesting insight to the pharma industry.
"Molly" Jan. '84 black/tan 300d 180k miles, two owner car
Silberpfeil
09-13-2010, 03:16 PM #73(09-13-2010, 06:20 AM)winmutt Its OT but I highly recommend everyone watch The Union. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...4651731007#
It shows how ludicrous the illegalization of marijuana is. How all the bad effects are myths from bad studies and bad science (FI you should appreciate that) and how much more money is made off it because of it. Drug dealers dont want it legal any more than LEOs. Why? They all make money off it.
I second that. Also gives some interesting insight to the pharma industry.
"Molly" Jan. '84 black/tan 300d 180k miles, two owner car
12-01-2010, 02:59 AM
#74
also very interested to keep hearing the feedback on the veggie oil in here... keep up the good work
There's no replacement for displacement... except for the TURBO IN MY BASEMENT!
AMCtilldeath
12-01-2010, 02:59 AM #74actually, as far as the whole fuel tax goes, its a huge gray area, many states have made amendments or exceptions to there laws, allowing as long as its "fuel that you processed from a waste that is yours" or if you want to get serious about it you can get a blenders license, and pay tax for every gallon you make... personally, i feel i pay enough, when my vehicle registration goes up, as well as every other fee related to it, and our services go down, as well as quality of roads, etc. our state doesnt just get to pull you over and randomly dip you, and i'm glad. plus from others i've spoken with, most only care if its dyed fuel, but i suppose this varys from state to state as well... bottom line though... fight for what you feel is right.
also very interested to keep hearing the feedback on the veggie oil in here... keep up the good work
There's no replacement for displacement... except for the TURBO IN MY BASEMENT!
12-01-2010, 03:29 PM
#75
i actually dont like advocating to much for it for that very reason... and i have a secure supply... lol... call me paranoid... or greedy... not really sure
There's no replacement for displacement... except for the TURBO IN MY BASEMENT!
AMCtilldeath
12-01-2010, 03:29 PM #75Also, you may or may not get a friendly response to wvo in here, i dont know, i just joined yesterday. but you may want to check out some forums that are dedicated to WVO, these engines are very popular to use for it, and work very well, and people in there will be collaborating on best processing methods, etc... the problem you will run into in a forum like this, to be blunt and cut to the chase, is that alot of people havent tried it, and when they see some dumb hippie/ tree hugger/ hipster, etc, get one of our cars for super cheap (and we miss the deal, lol) and destroy cause they dont know wtf there doing, it pisses them/ us off, because to that person, it was just a cheap throw away car, and they take on the "i dont give a shit" attitude... i'm gonna stick it to the man by not paying for fuel for a few months.... then when it blows up, i'll just buy another one... cause there too broke/ lack the knowledge/ resources to fix theirs, when in reality, if they had any sense about them, they would realize what a vital resource that car is!!! if they really wanted to stick it to the man, they would take there time and RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH, and build the best system right away, and, build it to match the car... and by that i mean overbuild the piss out of it... and they would ACTUALLY be able to stick it to the man, cause they would have a car that is renowned world wide for its reliability and longevity, (no tax money for uncle sam by having to get a new car every year) and it would burn through two or three tanks of dino a year... that i feel is one of the biggest concerns in here, or at least, it should be. if done properly, there is not really an harm done when running filtered veggie oil... even if you have to rebuild an Injector pump here or there (at every 50k, for example, an injector pump is far cheaper than 1851 Gallons (27mpg) of diesel @ $3.50 a gallon... thats $6481) it can be done, and it, among other fuels i'm experimenting with, is the reason i bought mine... a very good friend has been running his 84 F250 with the IH navistar 6.9L idi on veggie since 2004 (possibly earlier) without a hitch that i am aware of... i havent talked with him recently (almost two years, lol... :S) except a text here and there, but i will be visiting him sometime in the next month, i will get a full report from him on it... total miles on wvo, what kind of failures have occurred since the switch, what miles they occurred at, MPG on wvo, both empty and with a significant load, as well as summer/ winter performance. another friend just picked up an 86 jetta diesel that was already converted, the previous owner put about 10k on his system with no issue... have also met a guy here locally just last week in the parking lot of the auto parts store, lol. had a 2000 f250 (powerstroke 7.3L) he's got an 85 gallon heated and insulated tank in the bed of his truck, not to mention a very sophisticated fully computer automated system that he designed and fabricated himself... (once up to set temp, automatically switches from Dino to veggie, temps are monitored through out the entire system and displayed on his little dash mounted computer control module. him and his wife go all over the country in it. he's also got a 79 300TD, dont recall him saying he's got that on veggie yet, he had just gotton it. we exchanged emails and phone numbers and i will be asking him a few more questions about his setup. we were both in a hurry. but dont let the nay sayers put you off to this, heed there warnings of course, and think about why that problem is occuring, but dont let it stop you. the way i always looked at it, if they dont want to do it, that fine, more fuel for me i actually dont like advocating to much for it for that very reason... and i have a secure supply... lol... call me paranoid... or greedy... not really sure
There's no replacement for displacement... except for the TURBO IN MY BASEMENT!
12-05-2010, 05:35 AM
#77
or is it because they consider themselves good citizens(patriots) and the WVO drivers are not?
My advise is to think for a minute the next time you fill up your tank at a gas station, Where are your dollars going?
USA have to import 8 million barrels of crude oil (89$ a barrel today) every day. That means that some of your hard earned money goes to Arabic countries, Venezuela and Russia(and others). They use this money to buy your peoperty or borrow you money so that you will be in debt to them forever.
So who are the real patriots? my vote goes to the WVO drivers
By reading this thread I have learnt that some of you don't like the guys driving on WVO, some even go as far as saying they steal from taxpayers. So I ask myself why do they say that? Is it because they are lazy(easier to go to a gas station than make your own fuel) and jealous on people that are able to save a buck or two?
or is it because they consider themselves good citizens(patriots) and the WVO drivers are not?
My advise is to think for a minute the next time you fill up your tank at a gas station, Where are your dollars going?
USA have to import 8 million barrels of crude oil (89$ a barrel today) every day. That means that some of your hard earned money goes to Arabic countries, Venezuela and Russia(and others). They use this money to buy your peoperty or borrow you money so that you will be in debt to them forever.
So who are the real patriots? my vote goes to the WVO drivers
12-05-2010, 06:30 AM
#78
I've got no right to say one way or the other, since I've been running on #2 diesel for the few times I've had my engine up, but I can see his point.
Drink UV sterilized and sock filtered pond water(WVO), or go chlorinated and reverse osmosis filtered(B2). One is free-ish, does the job with some cavets, and can do nasty things when not properly handled, the other is more refined, more expensive, and requires more time, expertise, and capital investment.
Ignoring legality for a minute, It boils down to personal preference. Save time and cost, with possible hidden cost down the road, or outlay more cash upfront, invest more time, and create a fuel that has properties more similar to the one it replaces.
This is intended to be unbiased, and not a push towards either method.
That being said, I'd be one to setup a biodiesel converter, or bring wvo to a co-op to trade cost for convenience and time saved.
I'm also a bit of a perfectionist, and have an engineering background, so the thought of something like fryer oil in a precision device like an IP makes me recoil a bit and brace for an explosion.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
The way I see it, Forced isn't condeming alternative fuel, just the fact that people are overlooking another way to go about it, that has less ethical and legal grey area, less variability and unknowns, and produces a more consistent product.
I've got no right to say one way or the other, since I've been running on #2 diesel for the few times I've had my engine up, but I can see his point.
Drink UV sterilized and sock filtered pond water(WVO), or go chlorinated and reverse osmosis filtered(B2). One is free-ish, does the job with some cavets, and can do nasty things when not properly handled, the other is more refined, more expensive, and requires more time, expertise, and capital investment.
Ignoring legality for a minute, It boils down to personal preference. Save time and cost, with possible hidden cost down the road, or outlay more cash upfront, invest more time, and create a fuel that has properties more similar to the one it replaces.
This is intended to be unbiased, and not a push towards either method.
That being said, I'd be one to setup a biodiesel converter, or bring wvo to a co-op to trade cost for convenience and time saved.
I'm also a bit of a perfectionist, and have an engineering background, so the thought of something like fryer oil in a precision device like an IP makes me recoil a bit and brace for an explosion.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-05-2010, 08:40 AM
#79
(12-05-2010, 05:35 AM)erling66 By reading this thread I have learnt that some of you don't like the guys driving on WVO, some even go as far as saying they steal from taxpayers. So I ask myself why do they say that? Is it because they are lazy(easier to go to a gas station than make your own fuel) and jealous on people that are able to save a buck or two?
or is it because they consider themselves good citizens(patriots) and the WVO drivers are not?
My advise is to think for a minute the next time you fill up your tank at a gas station, Where are your dollars going?
USA have to import 8 million barrels of crude oil (89$ a barrel today) every day. That means that some of your hard earned money goes to Arabic countries, Venezuela and Russia(and others). They use this money to buy your peoperty or borrow you money so that you will be in debt to them forever.
So who are the real patriots? my vote goes to the WVO drivers
I agree
a lot of the road tax thing is just a misunderstanding of how tax is calculated in the US. People are not really understanding that tax on fuel at a fuel station is SALES tax, just like any other commodity or service where sales tax is charged. The revenue from fuel sales does not wholly or directly correlate to road maintenance, the whole idea that using the road and not paying tax at the fuel pump constitutes "stealing" from the government is totally preposterous frankly.
Its all part of the revenue stream of the US government, and road maintenance funds come from many places, not just pump sales. The same argument could be made that since im drinking well water from my own well and not paying a tax on the bottled water I buy, the im "stealing" that source of revenue from the government.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(12-05-2010, 05:35 AM)erling66 By reading this thread I have learnt that some of you don't like the guys driving on WVO, some even go as far as saying they steal from taxpayers. So I ask myself why do they say that? Is it because they are lazy(easier to go to a gas station than make your own fuel) and jealous on people that are able to save a buck or two?
or is it because they consider themselves good citizens(patriots) and the WVO drivers are not?
My advise is to think for a minute the next time you fill up your tank at a gas station, Where are your dollars going?
USA have to import 8 million barrels of crude oil (89$ a barrel today) every day. That means that some of your hard earned money goes to Arabic countries, Venezuela and Russia(and others). They use this money to buy your peoperty or borrow you money so that you will be in debt to them forever.
So who are the real patriots? my vote goes to the WVO drivers
I agree
a lot of the road tax thing is just a misunderstanding of how tax is calculated in the US. People are not really understanding that tax on fuel at a fuel station is SALES tax, just like any other commodity or service where sales tax is charged. The revenue from fuel sales does not wholly or directly correlate to road maintenance, the whole idea that using the road and not paying tax at the fuel pump constitutes "stealing" from the government is totally preposterous frankly.
Its all part of the revenue stream of the US government, and road maintenance funds come from many places, not just pump sales. The same argument could be made that since im drinking well water from my own well and not paying a tax on the bottled water I buy, the im "stealing" that source of revenue from the government.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
12-05-2010, 12:43 PM
#80
(12-05-2010, 08:40 AM)dropnosky I agree
a lot of the road tax thing is just a misunderstanding of how tax is calculated in the US. People are not really understanding that tax on fuel at a fuel station is SALES tax, just like any other commodity or service where sales tax is charged. The revenue from fuel sales does not wholly or directly correlate to road maintenance, the whole idea that using the road and not paying tax at the fuel pump constitutes "stealing" from the government is totally preposterous frankly.
Its all part of the revenue stream of the US government, and road maintenance funds come from many places, not just pump sales. The same argument could be made that since im drinking well water from my own well and not paying a tax on the bottled water I buy, the im "stealing" that source of revenue from the government.
Thats not entirely true as you pay a property tax on your own well. By using the roads and not paying taxes on the fuel you are placing additional burdens on the rest of us tax payers. It is a sales tax simply because that is the easiest way to charge it. Would you rather they took you yearly inspection as an opporunity to record your odometer and then charge you based on weight times distance travelled? How would you like to get heavily fined for a non functioning odometer.
WVO is not a worldwide solution to energy. It places additional burdens on our food resources, particularly SVO. I generally frown upon it because I hear of people simple letting it sit for a month or so and then straining it through a couple of tshirts and then driving their benz for another 10k miles. Suddenly they have pump or engine issues and the car ends up in the junkyard. I have seen plenty WVO failures there.
What happens now in the greater scheme of things is that another car must be produced to replace this one at a far greater cost both economically and environmentally than that of using diesel or properly produced biodiesel.
Further to the issue of who "patriots" are. I would argue it is those who use properly manufactured and taxed biodiesel. Not only are we paying our dues we are reducing the need for foreign imports. In my case it is made and sold in the same state I live in.
You point to how much is imported daily, that is predominantly because of gas, not diesel. According to the EPA if 50% of the US was driving diesel then we wouldnt have to import light crude.
If you want to really be green and help the country I think our system of trucking needs to be re-evaluated. There is little reason why more trains wouldnt relieve the burden that is placed on our fuel resources by trucks who consume more fuel than any other vehicle, commercial or otherwise.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(12-05-2010, 08:40 AM)dropnosky I agree
a lot of the road tax thing is just a misunderstanding of how tax is calculated in the US. People are not really understanding that tax on fuel at a fuel station is SALES tax, just like any other commodity or service where sales tax is charged. The revenue from fuel sales does not wholly or directly correlate to road maintenance, the whole idea that using the road and not paying tax at the fuel pump constitutes "stealing" from the government is totally preposterous frankly.
Its all part of the revenue stream of the US government, and road maintenance funds come from many places, not just pump sales. The same argument could be made that since im drinking well water from my own well and not paying a tax on the bottled water I buy, the im "stealing" that source of revenue from the government.
Thats not entirely true as you pay a property tax on your own well. By using the roads and not paying taxes on the fuel you are placing additional burdens on the rest of us tax payers. It is a sales tax simply because that is the easiest way to charge it. Would you rather they took you yearly inspection as an opporunity to record your odometer and then charge you based on weight times distance travelled? How would you like to get heavily fined for a non functioning odometer.
WVO is not a worldwide solution to energy. It places additional burdens on our food resources, particularly SVO. I generally frown upon it because I hear of people simple letting it sit for a month or so and then straining it through a couple of tshirts and then driving their benz for another 10k miles. Suddenly they have pump or engine issues and the car ends up in the junkyard. I have seen plenty WVO failures there.
What happens now in the greater scheme of things is that another car must be produced to replace this one at a far greater cost both economically and environmentally than that of using diesel or properly produced biodiesel.
Further to the issue of who "patriots" are. I would argue it is those who use properly manufactured and taxed biodiesel. Not only are we paying our dues we are reducing the need for foreign imports. In my case it is made and sold in the same state I live in.
You point to how much is imported daily, that is predominantly because of gas, not diesel. According to the EPA if 50% of the US was driving diesel then we wouldnt have to import light crude.
If you want to really be green and help the country I think our system of trucking needs to be re-evaluated. There is little reason why more trains wouldnt relieve the burden that is placed on our fuel resources by trucks who consume more fuel than any other vehicle, commercial or otherwise.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
12-05-2010, 02:01 PM
#81
(12-05-2010, 12:43 PM)winmutt Thats not entirely true as you pay a property tax on your own well. By using the roads and not paying taxes on the fuel you are placing additional burdens on the rest of us tax payers. It is a sales tax simply because that is the easiest way to charge it. Would you rather they took you yearly inspection as an opporunity to record your odometer and then charge you based on weight times distance travelled? How would you like to get heavily fined for a non functioning odometer.
You also pay property tax on your car, alternative fuel or otherwise, just like a well.
There is no way that running a VO powered car "places additional burdens on the rest of the tax payers". I don't know about you, but most of the road maintenance taxes that I pay are through my yearly state and federal taxes, not through the sales tax of fuel bought at the pump!
We've been over this before in this thread as well, but thats the same logic that would have people being penalized tax wise for driving a more fuel efficient car! Like I said earlier, I think it makes more sense to give a tax incentive to drive a hybrid car, which is already done on the gas/electric hybrids.
Like I said earlier, when I drive a VO/diesel hybrid car, I still buy diesel at the pump, but can supplement it with VO and extend my range. Its almost the same concept of running a gasoline electric hybrid, where gas power is supplemented by electric motors. Would you say that a electric hybrid driver is also placing additional burdens on the taxpayer?
(12-05-2010, 12:43 PM)winmutt WVO is not a worldwide solution to energy. It places additional burdens on our food resources, particularly SVO. I generally frown upon it because I hear of people simple letting it sit for a month or so and then straining it through a couple of tshirts and then driving their benz for another 10k miles. Suddenly they have pump or engine issues and the car ends up in the junkyard. I have seen plenty WVO failures there.
If you want to really be green and help the country I think our system of trucking needs to be re-evaluated. There is little reason why more trains wouldnt relieve the burden that is placed on our fuel resources by trucks who consume more fuel than any other vehicle, commercial or otherwise.
I totally agree with this, its NOT a worldwide solution to energy. However, what makes it interesting to me is that it IS a viable alternative option for heavy industry, like biodiesel, which I also support to use of. Im not arguing against biodiesel, I just personally prefer VO, both are good options.
Very few of all the alternative solutions out there actually address the biggest consumer of fuels and producer of emissions in heavy industry. I have personally seen the stuff work in heavy trucks and even a well drilling rig, so used wisely, it can be applied to the industrial sector in some capacity.
I totally agree on the idiots misusing VO in their vehicles and doing damage, its a problem especially for old mercedes since they are cheap, and not everyone loves them like enthusiasts. They are simply an old inexpensive car that runs on diesel and can be converted for experimental purposes. Ultimately, we all just have to deal with that though, because I doubt there will be less of it in the future. There are no shortages of people who do not maintain a complex machine like an automobile, and these people are often also cheap and likely to cut corners with whatever they do. Plenty of people can't be trusted to change a tire, yet can buy an old diesel and throw VO in it, so theres really no surprise.
The trains idea is a good idea, but its seems to be less viable than you would think. It takes a lot of capital to put together a train system that is truly profitable, and the proliferation of trucking instead is I believe just a natural consequence of more inexpensive and versatile shipping services that trucks represent, certainly for this country.
This post was last modified: 12-05-2010, 02:15 PM by JB3.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(12-05-2010, 12:43 PM)winmutt Thats not entirely true as you pay a property tax on your own well. By using the roads and not paying taxes on the fuel you are placing additional burdens on the rest of us tax payers. It is a sales tax simply because that is the easiest way to charge it. Would you rather they took you yearly inspection as an opporunity to record your odometer and then charge you based on weight times distance travelled? How would you like to get heavily fined for a non functioning odometer.
You also pay property tax on your car, alternative fuel or otherwise, just like a well.
There is no way that running a VO powered car "places additional burdens on the rest of the tax payers". I don't know about you, but most of the road maintenance taxes that I pay are through my yearly state and federal taxes, not through the sales tax of fuel bought at the pump!
We've been over this before in this thread as well, but thats the same logic that would have people being penalized tax wise for driving a more fuel efficient car! Like I said earlier, I think it makes more sense to give a tax incentive to drive a hybrid car, which is already done on the gas/electric hybrids.
Like I said earlier, when I drive a VO/diesel hybrid car, I still buy diesel at the pump, but can supplement it with VO and extend my range. Its almost the same concept of running a gasoline electric hybrid, where gas power is supplemented by electric motors. Would you say that a electric hybrid driver is also placing additional burdens on the taxpayer?
(12-05-2010, 12:43 PM)winmutt WVO is not a worldwide solution to energy. It places additional burdens on our food resources, particularly SVO. I generally frown upon it because I hear of people simple letting it sit for a month or so and then straining it through a couple of tshirts and then driving their benz for another 10k miles. Suddenly they have pump or engine issues and the car ends up in the junkyard. I have seen plenty WVO failures there.
If you want to really be green and help the country I think our system of trucking needs to be re-evaluated. There is little reason why more trains wouldnt relieve the burden that is placed on our fuel resources by trucks who consume more fuel than any other vehicle, commercial or otherwise.
I totally agree with this, its NOT a worldwide solution to energy. However, what makes it interesting to me is that it IS a viable alternative option for heavy industry, like biodiesel, which I also support to use of. Im not arguing against biodiesel, I just personally prefer VO, both are good options.
Very few of all the alternative solutions out there actually address the biggest consumer of fuels and producer of emissions in heavy industry. I have personally seen the stuff work in heavy trucks and even a well drilling rig, so used wisely, it can be applied to the industrial sector in some capacity.
I totally agree on the idiots misusing VO in their vehicles and doing damage, its a problem especially for old mercedes since they are cheap, and not everyone loves them like enthusiasts. They are simply an old inexpensive car that runs on diesel and can be converted for experimental purposes. Ultimately, we all just have to deal with that though, because I doubt there will be less of it in the future. There are no shortages of people who do not maintain a complex machine like an automobile, and these people are often also cheap and likely to cut corners with whatever they do. Plenty of people can't be trusted to change a tire, yet can buy an old diesel and throw VO in it, so theres really no surprise.
The trains idea is a good idea, but its seems to be less viable than you would think. It takes a lot of capital to put together a train system that is truly profitable, and the proliferation of trucking instead is I believe just a natural consequence of more inexpensive and versatile shipping services that trucks represent, certainly for this country.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
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