M pump into an OM617
M pump into an OM617
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
I am swapping an M Pump into a fellow board members Land Rover with a OM617. I was going to set timing with the standard 14 ATDC timing method but if anyone know of a better setting for these motors let me know. Also what are people just plugging the oil feed from the MW pump? This motor also has a pump driven off the chain above the injection pump, looks like a hydraulic pump of some sort but on this setup they just have it looped back into itself. Anyone know the story on this setup?
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Can you post a picture of what you are asking about?
![[Image: zzzzzzzzzzz.jpg]](http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww112/jhoff/zzzzzzzzzzz.jpg)
I don't know anything about switching over to an M pump but my guess is that you have to modify the intermediate shaft that drives the IP so that it oils the pump properly since the MW pump is not lubricated from there and plug the stock MW line. Or go the lazy way and route the MW line into the pump. But you might need a flow restrictor then ??
I don't think that the OM61X M pumps have the locking pin for the 14ATDC method at all. This is the vacuum governed om616 pump installation but it should be the same for an om617: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/dies...g-how.html
That's the pump for the self leveling suspension.
I don't know anything about switching over to an M pump but my guess is that you have to modify the intermediate shaft that drives the IP so that it oils the pump properly since the MW pump is not lubricated from there and plug the stock MW line. Or go the lazy way and route the MW line into the pump. But you might need a flow restrictor then ??
I don't think that the OM61X M pumps have the locking pin for the 14ATDC method at all. This is the vacuum governed om616 pump installation but it should be the same for an om617: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/dies...g-how.html
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Yeah I did notice no locking pin. Yes that is the correct pump for sls. Yeah the oiling thing is interesting. Maybe it just gets oiled like the om60x pumps.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Now there's two schools of thought - one is that M pumps put on engines that never had them need external oil supply like the MW, the other is to not bother.
I haven't had personal experience (yet) so up to you really
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
My engine has a block off plate instead of the SLS pump. Looping it into itself won't do it any favours...
Now there's two schools of thought - one is that M pumps put on engines that never had them need external oil supply like the MW, the other is to not bother.
I haven't had personal experience (yet) so up to you really
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
08-23-2015, 08:43 AM #7The M-pump for the 617 is oiled through the camshaft, if you look at the front its hollow. On my engine I blocked the MW supply port on the block with a bolt, and every time I've taken an M-pump off my engine its full of oil.
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
(08-23-2015, 08:43 AM)led-panzer The M-pump for the 617 is oiled through the camshaft, if you look at the front its hollow. On my engine I blocked the MW supply port on the block with a bolt, and every time I've taken an M-pump off my engine its full of oil.
True story
![[Image: 2rbyq8y.jpg]](http://i61.tinypic.com/2rbyq8y.jpg)
(08-23-2015, 01:10 AM)NZScott ......M pumps put on engines that never had them need external oil supply like the MW....
THIS !!
I'm not sure if the shaft that drives the IP on MW pump engine has the provision to oil the pump through the holow shaft. So when you put an M pump on an engine that never had an M pump nothing suplies the oil to the pump. Now I'm not sure if this is true, maybe it is maybe it isn't.
Quote: the other is to not botherBut you can NEVER be too cautious
I wouldn't be willing to risk an IP.
(08-23-2015, 01:10 AM)NZScott ......M pumps put on engines that never had them need external oil supply like the MW....
THIS !!
I'm not sure if the shaft that drives the IP on MW pump engine has the provision to oil the pump through the holow shaft. So when you put an M pump on an engine that never had an M pump nothing suplies the oil to the pump. Now I'm not sure if this is true, maybe it is maybe it isn't.
Quote: the other is to not botherBut you can NEVER be too cautious
I wouldn't be willing to risk an IP.
what i usually suggest is that , in case of dought , to fill the IP with engine oil , and after some time check for the presence of black oil.
when it is black .... is being feed.
i´ve seen many (other) pumps oiled from its crankcase , diesel kiki in komatsu´s engines. every now and then u got to check oil level.
same aplies for a M , despite some people are wiling to argue that.
regards.
FD,
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most engines ( the ones i saw) feed the IP through the advance mechanism hole, the oil goes through he camshaft feeding the main bearing and then fills the inside.
what i usually suggest is that , in case of dought , to fill the IP with engine oil , and after some time check for the presence of black oil.
when it is black .... is being feed.
i´ve seen many (other) pumps oiled from its crankcase , diesel kiki in komatsu´s engines. every now and then u got to check oil level.
same aplies for a M , despite some people are wiling to argue that.
regards.
FD,
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These pumps had a port to check the oil level.
70s era pumps were oiled through the groove in the IP. These pumps have a leather diaphragm that is part of the governor. If an MW oil line is hooked up to an M pump the diaphragm will rupture because of the pressure.
The MW pumps do not have the leather diaphragm and get pressurized oil via the line that goes to the center of the pump.
I did some poking around and this is what I found. 60s era pumps had a separate oil system from the rest of the engine. the oil in the IP would have to be changed separately form the engine oil.
These pumps had a port to check the oil level.
70s era pumps were oiled through the groove in the IP. These pumps have a leather diaphragm that is part of the governor. If an MW oil line is hooked up to an M pump the diaphragm will rupture because of the pressure.
The MW pumps do not have the leather diaphragm and get pressurized oil via the line that goes to the center of the pump.
Found these docs about the pumps. The PDF is for the 60's era pumps. The image shows how the IP gets oil on the 70s era pumps.
(08-20-2015, 04:49 PM)TurboTim I am swapping an M Pump into a fellow board members Land Rover with a OM617. I was going to set timing with the standard 14 ATDC timing method but if anyone know of a better setting for these motors let me know. Also what are people just plugging the oil feed from the MW pump? This motor also has a pump driven off the chain above the injection pump, looks like a hydraulic pump of some sort but on this setup they just have it looped back into itself. Anyone know the story on this setup?
the timing on a m pump is different from a mw?its not supposed to be 24 degrees btdc?
carlitosgy6
08-25-2015, 11:08 AM #13(08-20-2015, 04:49 PM)TurboTim I am swapping an M Pump into a fellow board members Land Rover with a OM617. I was going to set timing with the standard 14 ATDC timing method but if anyone know of a better setting for these motors let me know. Also what are people just plugging the oil feed from the MW pump? This motor also has a pump driven off the chain above the injection pump, looks like a hydraulic pump of some sort but on this setup they just have it looped back into itself. Anyone know the story on this setup?
the timing on a m pump is different from a mw?its not supposed to be 24 degrees btdc?
the doc u uploaded is from a pump to 60X series engines , self lubricated, slightly diff from M pump for 61X engines.
the timing is the same in any engine, any pump, matter´s litle , the way u install the pump is what matters. M pumps for 60X engines need to be installed at 14.5 º ATDC cause they have a locking device wich locks the pump in mid injection, a M pump for a 61X engine does not have that locking abilities , so the pump m pump for 61X series need to be installed post injection 24ºATDC. same as a mw , or whatever the installation procedure tels u to do.
timing checking , can´t be done by using 24 or 16 or what ever in pumps for 61X series the drip method is the best one drop minute, this sets start of injection.
for a M type 60X engines, when i build the pump a do the driping before installation of the locking grove where people will in the end istall the locking device. u should be aware that pump builder may fail that point, rendering the timing set by RIV (AB light) method unreliable.
MB provides a special tool with a stoboscopic light and pick up at cyl 1, this device is the best to use it fits all diesel engines, it just lissens the opening of the injector. the trick is to know the number of degres at wich the engine runs best.
regards to all
FD,
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Mr Torkey , yes u´re right except the diaphagm thing, m pumps do not have that thing , the mw has separate chambers inside, one part gets oil from the gear at the avance mechanism, the other part (governor) is feed by a oil line from the engine, the ruturn to engine i done through the front end of the pump as the picture above.
the doc u uploaded is from a pump to 60X series engines , self lubricated, slightly diff from M pump for 61X engines.
the timing is the same in any engine, any pump, matter´s litle , the way u install the pump is what matters. M pumps for 60X engines need to be installed at 14.5 º ATDC cause they have a locking device wich locks the pump in mid injection, a M pump for a 61X engine does not have that locking abilities , so the pump m pump for 61X series need to be installed post injection 24ºATDC. same as a mw , or whatever the installation procedure tels u to do.
timing checking , can´t be done by using 24 or 16 or what ever in pumps for 61X series the drip method is the best one drop minute, this sets start of injection.
for a M type 60X engines, when i build the pump a do the driping before installation of the locking grove where people will in the end istall the locking device. u should be aware that pump builder may fail that point, rendering the timing set by RIV (AB light) method unreliable.
MB provides a special tool with a stoboscopic light and pick up at cyl 1, this device is the best to use it fits all diesel engines, it just lissens the opening of the injector. the trick is to know the number of degres at wich the engine runs best.
regards to all
FD,
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Congratulations! What size elements do you have in your M pump and are you going to dyno it?
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