VGT, stock hybrid or other? Help with which turbo setup
VGT, stock hybrid or other? Help with which turbo setup
05-11-2015, 12:26 PM
#1
My E300 sleeper project will be requiring more power in the coming years, I will be upgrading to 8mm elements so that the fueling is there to support any power level I want to go with, the main question is around which turbo would work best for my goals.
I will be looking to keep the stock part electric fuel pump (but with uprated elements etc), I will be upgrading the 722.6 box as well at some point, here are a few slightly different criteria that probably aren't done as much:
I am planning to keep the stock part electric pump
I am planning to keep the stock rev limiter (at 5.5kish I believe?)
I am planning to be running a stock ECU (although might try a piggyback) - will be running various resistors on sensors as well
I am planning to keep below the max boost that the ECU is happy with before it throws a code
I am looking for a modest level of power probably up to 400bhp.
I will be keeping it with a simple single turbo
I will be using the car for drag racing, however I have found that if there is too much power then the power can't be actually put down to the road, it just spins up the tyres or the autobox flares.
This will also mean that I will be looking for a setup which allows quite a large power band rather than a large spike of power near the end of the rev range.
I am aware that the stock turbo is 'ok' for stock and slightly higher than stock power, however runs out of puff at higher power levels when adding additional fueling.
Here are the options I thought about:
- Basic Holset HX35 - common turbo to find and fit
VGT/VNT Holset HY35 - I can use the stock vacuum transducer to simply plug and play with this setup
Stock hybrid - uprated compressor on stock hotside - have seen something like a K24 or K26 used
Larger t4 turbo - GT45 size - would be laggy but would still provide a largish volume of air at lower boost
I was also thinking about a supercharger, however this would mean added weight and complexity, plus I have a fairly large engine to spool up a turbo with!
My thought is to go down the VGT/VNT route as I will have the vacuum transducer control anyway as stock so won't need to sort out any controller to use it, it would also give me the low down spool and then top end power.
What does everyone think I should look to do? I think the key is that I am planning to keep the stock part electric pump as although I could go down the OM603 mechanical route, I would prefer to see what can be done with the standard pump setup.
Hi all,
My E300 sleeper project will be requiring more power in the coming years, I will be upgrading to 8mm elements so that the fueling is there to support any power level I want to go with, the main question is around which turbo would work best for my goals.
I will be looking to keep the stock part electric fuel pump (but with uprated elements etc), I will be upgrading the 722.6 box as well at some point, here are a few slightly different criteria that probably aren't done as much:
I am planning to keep the stock part electric pump
I am planning to keep the stock rev limiter (at 5.5kish I believe?)
I am planning to be running a stock ECU (although might try a piggyback) - will be running various resistors on sensors as well
I am planning to keep below the max boost that the ECU is happy with before it throws a code
I am looking for a modest level of power probably up to 400bhp.
I will be keeping it with a simple single turbo
I will be using the car for drag racing, however I have found that if there is too much power then the power can't be actually put down to the road, it just spins up the tyres or the autobox flares.
This will also mean that I will be looking for a setup which allows quite a large power band rather than a large spike of power near the end of the rev range.
I am aware that the stock turbo is 'ok' for stock and slightly higher than stock power, however runs out of puff at higher power levels when adding additional fueling.
Here are the options I thought about:
- Basic Holset HX35 - common turbo to find and fit
VGT/VNT Holset HY35 - I can use the stock vacuum transducer to simply plug and play with this setup
Stock hybrid - uprated compressor on stock hotside - have seen something like a K24 or K26 used
Larger t4 turbo - GT45 size - would be laggy but would still provide a largish volume of air at lower boost
I was also thinking about a supercharger, however this would mean added weight and complexity, plus I have a fairly large engine to spool up a turbo with!
My thought is to go down the VGT/VNT route as I will have the vacuum transducer control anyway as stock so won't need to sort out any controller to use it, it would also give me the low down spool and then top end power.
What does everyone think I should look to do? I think the key is that I am planning to keep the stock part electric pump as although I could go down the OM603 mechanical route, I would prefer to see what can be done with the standard pump setup.
05-12-2015, 01:32 PM
#2
if u want to be conservative on the matter, go after the 8mm element fit them in the pump , find a good remap and hit the road.
Depending on how the pump will perform , u may end up upgrading the turbo .
lets see , those EDC pumps dont have REV limiter, the ECU does, and it does cause there are one of the RPM sensor wich s limited to 5500RPM, basically it will be very dificult to REV past the 5500 pulling.
and diesels dont deliver mutch power at high revs, the torque curve peaks at 3000RPM and after 4500 most start to drop. Common Rail designs very hard achieve that.
the 722.6 will hold 1000nm and 700hp. but in the end for a 400hp 600nm engine u want to be mechanichal regarding pump and gear box.
wich leave u with the clutch issue.
722.6 very dificultly will be able to run with the mech pump. so..... da da da ....
back to beginings, element swap, ecu remap, exaust pipe, egr out of business, turbo try the 2359V will bolt in maybe u can control it with the ecu, if not i´ll teach how to make it mechanichal.
regards.
FD,
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well , nothing of what u described will put u near 400mark except the 8mm element , but not in that pump.
if u want to be conservative on the matter, go after the 8mm element fit them in the pump , find a good remap and hit the road.
Depending on how the pump will perform , u may end up upgrading the turbo .
lets see , those EDC pumps dont have REV limiter, the ECU does, and it does cause there are one of the RPM sensor wich s limited to 5500RPM, basically it will be very dificult to REV past the 5500 pulling.
and diesels dont deliver mutch power at high revs, the torque curve peaks at 3000RPM and after 4500 most start to drop. Common Rail designs very hard achieve that.
the 722.6 will hold 1000nm and 700hp. but in the end for a 400hp 600nm engine u want to be mechanichal regarding pump and gear box.
wich leave u with the clutch issue.
722.6 very dificultly will be able to run with the mech pump. so..... da da da ....
back to beginings, element swap, ecu remap, exaust pipe, egr out of business, turbo try the 2359V will bolt in maybe u can control it with the ecu, if not i´ll teach how to make it mechanichal.
regards.
FD,
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05-12-2015, 03:20 PM
#3
(05-12-2015, 01:32 PM)barrote well , nothing of what u described will put u near 400mark except the 8mm element , but not in that pump.Hi again, just trying to get this right, I know for a fact the stock turbo will be no where near capable of supporting much over 200bhp so that's a definite upgrade needed, I was also looking at the Holset HY53 which should flow a fair amount of air.
if u want to be conservative on the matter, go after the 8mm element fit them in the pump , find a good remap and hit the road.
Depending on how the pump will perform , u may end up upgrading the turbo .
lets see , those EDC pumps dont have REV limiter, the ECU does, and it does cause there are one of the RPM sensor wich s limited to 5500RPM, basically it will be very dificult to REV past the 5500 pulling.
and diesels dont deliver mutch power at high revs, the torque curve peaks at 3000RPM and after 4500 most start to drop. Common Rail designs very hard achieve that.
the 722.6 will hold 1000nm and 700hp. but in the end for a 400hp 600nm engine u want to be mechanichal regarding pump and gear box.
wich leave u with the clutch issue.
722.6 very dificultly will be able to run with the mech pump. so..... da da da ....
back to beginings, element swap, ecu remap, exaust pipe, egr out of business, turbo try the 2359V will bolt in maybe u can control it with the ecu, if not i´ll teach how to make it mechanichal.
regards.
I thought that the OM606 was happy to rev up higher unlike the CDI engines? Anyway I plan to keep the revs below the 5,500 mark so raising the limiter won't be an issue - although a remap might be able to remove this limiter anyway.
The stock 722.6 gearbox has a 580 ft/lbs rating so around 790nm would be the limit so it should be ok for a bit more power before things start to have issues, although I am planning to upgrade to the E55 AMG box instead.
I will be keeping the stock electric pump and upgrade the elements, as its only really the rack actuation that is done electronically I don't see why it should be such a big problem - especially if I run some resistors on the rack sensor so I get additional fueling.
The stock ECU uses the vacuum transducer on the stock turbo so will hook right up to the VNT upgrade I go with (if I go down the VNT route) - will be keeping with the electronic pump as it will be easier to make everything work together so it won't throw codes up etc.
I have heard of people running larger elements with the stock ECU and not having issues - all the remaps seem to do is add a bit of extra fueling at the end of the injection cycle - plan is to upgrade the elements and run the stock ECU, the ECU has no idea how much fuel is being injected, it just knows that at a stock fueling level the pump rack has to be in a certain location.
What turbo do you think I should go with for 350-400bhp?
This post was last modified: 05-12-2015, 03:23 PM by m1tch.
(05-12-2015, 01:32 PM)barrote well , nothing of what u described will put u near 400mark except the 8mm element , but not in that pump.Hi again, just trying to get this right, I know for a fact the stock turbo will be no where near capable of supporting much over 200bhp so that's a definite upgrade needed, I was also looking at the Holset HY53 which should flow a fair amount of air.
if u want to be conservative on the matter, go after the 8mm element fit them in the pump , find a good remap and hit the road.
Depending on how the pump will perform , u may end up upgrading the turbo .
lets see , those EDC pumps dont have REV limiter, the ECU does, and it does cause there are one of the RPM sensor wich s limited to 5500RPM, basically it will be very dificult to REV past the 5500 pulling.
and diesels dont deliver mutch power at high revs, the torque curve peaks at 3000RPM and after 4500 most start to drop. Common Rail designs very hard achieve that.
the 722.6 will hold 1000nm and 700hp. but in the end for a 400hp 600nm engine u want to be mechanichal regarding pump and gear box.
wich leave u with the clutch issue.
722.6 very dificultly will be able to run with the mech pump. so..... da da da ....
back to beginings, element swap, ecu remap, exaust pipe, egr out of business, turbo try the 2359V will bolt in maybe u can control it with the ecu, if not i´ll teach how to make it mechanichal.
regards.
I thought that the OM606 was happy to rev up higher unlike the CDI engines? Anyway I plan to keep the revs below the 5,500 mark so raising the limiter won't be an issue - although a remap might be able to remove this limiter anyway.
The stock 722.6 gearbox has a 580 ft/lbs rating so around 790nm would be the limit so it should be ok for a bit more power before things start to have issues, although I am planning to upgrade to the E55 AMG box instead.
I will be keeping the stock electric pump and upgrade the elements, as its only really the rack actuation that is done electronically I don't see why it should be such a big problem - especially if I run some resistors on the rack sensor so I get additional fueling.
The stock ECU uses the vacuum transducer on the stock turbo so will hook right up to the VNT upgrade I go with (if I go down the VNT route) - will be keeping with the electronic pump as it will be easier to make everything work together so it won't throw codes up etc.
I have heard of people running larger elements with the stock ECU and not having issues - all the remaps seem to do is add a bit of extra fueling at the end of the injection cycle - plan is to upgrade the elements and run the stock ECU, the ECU has no idea how much fuel is being injected, it just knows that at a stock fueling level the pump rack has to be in a certain location.
What turbo do you think I should go with for 350-400bhp?
05-13-2015, 02:09 AM
#5
(05-13-2015, 12:09 AM)AlanMcR The 722.6 that came with your E300 was rated for 330NM. It can be reworked to support more power, and I don't think that is actually all that difficult. But it is a complete teardown to replace the friction surfaces.
Ah, apologies, I checked back at the details on the car and it will have the WA5 330 gearbox rather than the WA5 580 box - although I don't think it could handle the power barrote is suggesting as 330nm is only 243 ft/lbs!
I know that the transmission is known as a NAG1 over in the states and used in other models, I think there are uprated valve assemblies etc as well, I think I will look into simply fitting a 722.6 box from an E55 AMG as that should hold the power - I believe the differences would just be in the clutch packs as well as a slightly faster shift solenoid.
Coming back to my original question - what sort of turbo should I look at getting to get to 400bhp (excluding the supporting mods such as the transmission) - something like a HX40?
(05-13-2015, 12:09 AM)AlanMcR The 722.6 that came with your E300 was rated for 330NM. It can be reworked to support more power, and I don't think that is actually all that difficult. But it is a complete teardown to replace the friction surfaces.
Ah, apologies, I checked back at the details on the car and it will have the WA5 330 gearbox rather than the WA5 580 box - although I don't think it could handle the power barrote is suggesting as 330nm is only 243 ft/lbs!
I know that the transmission is known as a NAG1 over in the states and used in other models, I think there are uprated valve assemblies etc as well, I think I will look into simply fitting a 722.6 box from an E55 AMG as that should hold the power - I believe the differences would just be in the clutch packs as well as a slightly faster shift solenoid.
Coming back to my original question - what sort of turbo should I look at getting to get to 400bhp (excluding the supporting mods such as the transmission) - something like a HX40?
05-13-2015, 05:14 AM
#6
well i dont think u need any advice, since u know such a lot of things about ECU`s and resistors , and adding extra fuel at the end of injection, and suporting VNT`s . REV limiters and all that......
what i can bet with u is that , with the improvements u want to do u´ll never reach the 400hp.
is your Money so...... good luck
FD,
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he he,
well i dont think u need any advice, since u know such a lot of things about ECU`s and resistors , and adding extra fuel at the end of injection, and suporting VNT`s . REV limiters and all that......
what i can bet with u is that , with the improvements u want to do u´ll never reach the 400hp.
is your Money so...... good luck
FD,
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05-13-2015, 06:14 AM
#7
(05-13-2015, 05:14 AM)barrote he he,
well i dont think u need any advice, since u know such a lot of things about ECU`s and resistors , and adding extra fuel at the end of injection, and suporting VNT`s . REV limiters and all that......
what i can bet with u is that , with the improvements u want to do u´ll never reach the 400hp.
is your Money so...... good luck
That isn't a really constructive comment is it? I am trying to ask on the forum for some advice over and above the basic simple tuning mods that are well documented or advice from other members who have already done research and the mods already - I still don't know which size turbo would be the best to use with the 8mm pump elements.
(05-13-2015, 05:14 AM)barrote he he,
well i dont think u need any advice, since u know such a lot of things about ECU`s and resistors , and adding extra fuel at the end of injection, and suporting VNT`s . REV limiters and all that......
what i can bet with u is that , with the improvements u want to do u´ll never reach the 400hp.
is your Money so...... good luck
That isn't a really constructive comment is it? I am trying to ask on the forum for some advice over and above the basic simple tuning mods that are well documented or advice from other members who have already done research and the mods already - I still don't know which size turbo would be the best to use with the 8mm pump elements.
05-13-2015, 01:32 PM
#8
For me i´m good , i just disliked when u start talking about things that are not done that way, after i writed a good tip for u.
if your question is: what turbo will be able to produce 400HP ? u can use those holset 35 and above family, or from GT28 on.
if your question is: what turbo will be good for 8mm element? any one will do!!!! that depend on how much fuel u can take out from your pump. and a EDC direct swap it wont be much maybe 90cc and for that the kkk24 will do the trick , and belive me it will blow more than 200hp. a lot more.
tryed things are all over the fórum, americans like holsets, me and my friends like VNT from garret, the russians like borg warner, well again all depend on how much fuel u can put out.
FD,
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some coments can be as constructive as they are , or as destructive as they are.
For me i´m good , i just disliked when u start talking about things that are not done that way, after i writed a good tip for u.
if your question is: what turbo will be able to produce 400HP ? u can use those holset 35 and above family, or from GT28 on.
if your question is: what turbo will be good for 8mm element? any one will do!!!! that depend on how much fuel u can take out from your pump. and a EDC direct swap it wont be much maybe 90cc and for that the kkk24 will do the trick , and belive me it will blow more than 200hp. a lot more.
tryed things are all over the fórum, americans like holsets, me and my friends like VNT from garret, the russians like borg warner, well again all depend on how much fuel u can put out.
FD,
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05-13-2015, 01:40 PM
#9
(05-13-2015, 01:32 PM)barrote some coments can be as constructive as they are , or as destructive as they are.
For me i´m good , i just disliked when u start talking about things that are not done that way, after i writed a good tip for u.
if your question is: what turbo will be able to produce 400HP ? u can use those holset 35 and above family, or from GT28 on.
if your question is: what turbo will be good for 8mm element? any one will do!!!! that depend on how much fuel u can take out from your pump. and a EDC direct swap it wont be much maybe 90cc and for that the kkk24 will do the trick , and belive me it will blow more than 200hp. a lot more.
tryed things are all over the fórum, americans like holsets, me and my friends like VNT from garret, the russians like borg warner, well again all depend on how much fuel u can put out.
The stock EDC I am running has 6mm elements already, will be looking to swap those out to 8mm - so should be above the stock 90cc to whatever the normal output is on the OM603 pump with 8mm elements.
I was only asking which turbo would be best to get around 400bhp with the supporting fueling - I don't want to chose a turbo that is too small as it won't have the capacity or if I run it outside its efficiency island then it will start running rather hot intake charges.
(05-13-2015, 01:32 PM)barrote some coments can be as constructive as they are , or as destructive as they are.
For me i´m good , i just disliked when u start talking about things that are not done that way, after i writed a good tip for u.
if your question is: what turbo will be able to produce 400HP ? u can use those holset 35 and above family, or from GT28 on.
if your question is: what turbo will be good for 8mm element? any one will do!!!! that depend on how much fuel u can take out from your pump. and a EDC direct swap it wont be much maybe 90cc and for that the kkk24 will do the trick , and belive me it will blow more than 200hp. a lot more.
tryed things are all over the fórum, americans like holsets, me and my friends like VNT from garret, the russians like borg warner, well again all depend on how much fuel u can put out.
The stock EDC I am running has 6mm elements already, will be looking to swap those out to 8mm - so should be above the stock 90cc to whatever the normal output is on the OM603 pump with 8mm elements.
I was only asking which turbo would be best to get around 400bhp with the supporting fueling - I don't want to chose a turbo that is too small as it won't have the capacity or if I run it outside its efficiency island then it will start running rather hot intake charges.
05-13-2015, 01:57 PM
#10
601/2/3 pumps for turbo engines have between 42 to 45 with alda at max, usually above 800KPA
installing wider elements witout the tuning in the governor for mech pumps will increase fueling by the diff in diameter only, and that maybe 10% from 5.5 to 6. 5.5 to 7.5 25% about that much, more less.
installing wider elements in the EDC pump without proper ECU tuning will have the same efect. 65cc * 25% = more less 90cc to 100cc
that is good for 50hp cylinder, and that your curent turbo will be enough.
the trick is to make the EDC or other able to put out 150CC that will be good for more than 70hp Cylinder your 400hp above.
for those turbos u should ask to the fins and swedes , they are doing that.
FD,
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stock EDC for 604/5/6 is tuned at 62 to 65 cc turbo pressure above 1.2 bar. stock configuration.
601/2/3 pumps for turbo engines have between 42 to 45 with alda at max, usually above 800KPA
installing wider elements witout the tuning in the governor for mech pumps will increase fueling by the diff in diameter only, and that maybe 10% from 5.5 to 6. 5.5 to 7.5 25% about that much, more less.
installing wider elements in the EDC pump without proper ECU tuning will have the same efect. 65cc * 25% = more less 90cc to 100cc
that is good for 50hp cylinder, and that your curent turbo will be enough.
the trick is to make the EDC or other able to put out 150CC that will be good for more than 70hp Cylinder your 400hp above.
for those turbos u should ask to the fins and swedes , they are doing that.
FD,
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05-13-2015, 02:13 PM
#11
(05-13-2015, 01:57 PM)barrote stock EDC for 604/5/6 is tuned at 62 to 65 cc turbo pressure above 1.2 bar. stock configuration.
601/2/3 pumps for turbo engines have between 42 to 45 with alda at max, usually above 800KPA
installing wider elements witout the tuning in the governor for mech pumps will increase fueling by the diff in diameter only, and that maybe 10% from 5.5 to 6. 5.5 to 7.5 25% about that much, more less.
installing wider elements in the EDC pump without proper ECU tuning will have the same efect. 65cc * 25% = more less 90cc to 100cc
that is good for 50hp cylinder, and that your curent turbo will be enough.
the trick is to make the EDC or other able to put out 150CC that will be good for more than 70hp Cylinder your 400hp above.
for those turbos u should ask to the fins and swedes , they are doing that.
Looking at Dieselmeken's 8mm EDC pump, it seems to be running at around 140cc? I will be looking into getting the stock ECU chip remappable at some point but its the rack sensor that the ECU uses to know where the rack is to actuate it - if this is re-calibrated slightly it will mean that the ECU will be injecting more fuel than it thinks anyway even on a stock ECU.
(05-13-2015, 01:57 PM)barrote stock EDC for 604/5/6 is tuned at 62 to 65 cc turbo pressure above 1.2 bar. stock configuration.
601/2/3 pumps for turbo engines have between 42 to 45 with alda at max, usually above 800KPA
installing wider elements witout the tuning in the governor for mech pumps will increase fueling by the diff in diameter only, and that maybe 10% from 5.5 to 6. 5.5 to 7.5 25% about that much, more less.
installing wider elements in the EDC pump without proper ECU tuning will have the same efect. 65cc * 25% = more less 90cc to 100cc
that is good for 50hp cylinder, and that your curent turbo will be enough.
the trick is to make the EDC or other able to put out 150CC that will be good for more than 70hp Cylinder your 400hp above.
for those turbos u should ask to the fins and swedes , they are doing that.
Looking at Dieselmeken's 8mm EDC pump, it seems to be running at around 140cc? I will be looking into getting the stock ECU chip remappable at some point but its the rack sensor that the ECU uses to know where the rack is to actuate it - if this is re-calibrated slightly it will mean that the ECU will be injecting more fuel than it thinks anyway even on a stock ECU.
05-13-2015, 04:08 PM
#12
But then again, I haven't built a om606. So what do I know
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
HY35 will is not a VGT/VNT turbo, it is a fixed geometry exhaust housing that is only 9cm. From what I have read from the 606 tuners, a hy35 holds way to much backpressure on the engine. HX35 is a better option from what I see
But then again, I haven't built a om606. So what do I know
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
05-14-2015, 02:03 AM
#14
(05-13-2015, 06:19 PM)aaa The modified pumps usually have greater than normal rack travel, so that is one reason leaving your ECU as is will result it in it not using the pump's full output.
Could this be countered by having large elements so that although the total rack travel might be less the fuel delivered would be slightly higher to counter it?
Also, if the rack sensor output was showing slightly less than the actual position, would this mean that the ECU would move the rack slightly more therefore getting additional fueling anyway?
(05-13-2015, 06:19 PM)aaa The modified pumps usually have greater than normal rack travel, so that is one reason leaving your ECU as is will result it in it not using the pump's full output.
Could this be countered by having large elements so that although the total rack travel might be less the fuel delivered would be slightly higher to counter it?
Also, if the rack sensor output was showing slightly less than the actual position, would this mean that the ECU would move the rack slightly more therefore getting additional fueling anyway?
05-14-2015, 01:00 PM
#15
(05-14-2015, 02:03 AM)m1tchGoing from 6mm to 7mm elements (with no other changes) would, in theory deliver ~36% more fuel for any particular rack position.(05-13-2015, 06:19 PM)aaa The modified pumps usually have greater than normal rack travel, so that is one reason leaving your ECU as is will result it in it not using the pump's full output.
Could this be countered by having large elements so that although the total rack travel might be less the fuel delivered would be slightly higher to counter it?
Also, if the rack sensor output was showing slightly less than the actual position, would this mean that the ECU would move the rack slightly more therefore getting additional fueling anyway?
And, yes, if you attenuate the rack position sensor then the ECU will move the rack out further to get the position value that it is was trying for. That is what the "resistor fix' does on the OM606 ECU. I tried this and it definitely adds noticeable power. Unfortunately the extra fuel is delivered late in the combustion cycle and is not all that efficiently burned. Also, the ECU doesn't know it is burning more fuel and thus it doesn't turn up the boost to match.
(05-14-2015, 02:03 AM)m1tchGoing from 6mm to 7mm elements (with no other changes) would, in theory deliver ~36% more fuel for any particular rack position.(05-13-2015, 06:19 PM)aaa The modified pumps usually have greater than normal rack travel, so that is one reason leaving your ECU as is will result it in it not using the pump's full output.
Could this be countered by having large elements so that although the total rack travel might be less the fuel delivered would be slightly higher to counter it?
Also, if the rack sensor output was showing slightly less than the actual position, would this mean that the ECU would move the rack slightly more therefore getting additional fueling anyway?
And, yes, if you attenuate the rack position sensor then the ECU will move the rack out further to get the position value that it is was trying for. That is what the "resistor fix' does on the OM606 ECU. I tried this and it definitely adds noticeable power. Unfortunately the extra fuel is delivered late in the combustion cycle and is not all that efficiently burned. Also, the ECU doesn't know it is burning more fuel and thus it doesn't turn up the boost to match.
05-14-2015, 01:41 PM
#16
(05-14-2015, 01:00 PM)AlanMcR(05-14-2015, 02:03 AM)m1tchGoing from 6mm to 7mm elements (with no other changes) would, in theory deliver ~36% more fuel for any particular rack position.(05-13-2015, 06:19 PM)aaa The modified pumps usually have greater than normal rack travel, so that is one reason leaving your ECU as is will result it in it not using the pump's full output.
Could this be countered by having large elements so that although the total rack travel might be less the fuel delivered would be slightly higher to counter it?
Also, if the rack sensor output was showing slightly less than the actual position, would this mean that the ECU would move the rack slightly more therefore getting additional fueling anyway?
And, yes, if you attenuate the rack position sensor then the ECU will move the rack out further to get the position value that it is was trying for. That is what the "resistor fix' does on the OM606 ECU. I tried this and it definitely adds noticeable power. Unfortunately the extra fuel is delivered late in the combustion cycle and is not all that efficiently burned. Also, the ECU doesn't know it is burning more fuel and thus it doesn't turn up the boost to match.
Thanks for the info, perhaps to counter this I could run a boost actuated wastegate vs a vacuum operated setup and then maybe look at an EBC to increase the boost slightly higher up the rev range.
I am tempted to initially run with the stock fueling and perhaps add some water/meth injection at a set boost level to give a bit of extra fueling where needed - and also drop the EGTs - there is also a resistor fix on the MAP sensor (unless that is the one you are suggesting) - I am going to be running a potentiometer instead of a fixed resistor meaning that I can change the resistance and fine tune it.
I am going to try and see what I can get out of the stock setup first using the EDC pump with 6mm elements as a testbed as I know the normal upgrade is to just junk the EDC fuel pump and fit an OM603. I also figure that if I run on the stock ECU but simply uprate the elements the stock fueling delivery would be retained but just moved up higher.
Might be able to fool the ECU into running slightly more boost for the additional fueling although when I do run a larger turbo 18psi on a larger turbo would be flowing a lot more air vs the stock KKK turbo at 18psi. This would mean that if I am injecting around 36% more fuel with the large elements I could look to find a turbo which flows around 36% more air at the same boost level to then burn with the increase in fuel. Its why I am looking for a slightly uprated turbo which would increase the air flow into the engine but keep below the stock boost threshold to avoid the ECU cutting fueling or throwing a code.
(05-14-2015, 01:00 PM)AlanMcR(05-14-2015, 02:03 AM)m1tchGoing from 6mm to 7mm elements (with no other changes) would, in theory deliver ~36% more fuel for any particular rack position.(05-13-2015, 06:19 PM)aaa The modified pumps usually have greater than normal rack travel, so that is one reason leaving your ECU as is will result it in it not using the pump's full output.
Could this be countered by having large elements so that although the total rack travel might be less the fuel delivered would be slightly higher to counter it?
Also, if the rack sensor output was showing slightly less than the actual position, would this mean that the ECU would move the rack slightly more therefore getting additional fueling anyway?
And, yes, if you attenuate the rack position sensor then the ECU will move the rack out further to get the position value that it is was trying for. That is what the "resistor fix' does on the OM606 ECU. I tried this and it definitely adds noticeable power. Unfortunately the extra fuel is delivered late in the combustion cycle and is not all that efficiently burned. Also, the ECU doesn't know it is burning more fuel and thus it doesn't turn up the boost to match.
Thanks for the info, perhaps to counter this I could run a boost actuated wastegate vs a vacuum operated setup and then maybe look at an EBC to increase the boost slightly higher up the rev range.
I am tempted to initially run with the stock fueling and perhaps add some water/meth injection at a set boost level to give a bit of extra fueling where needed - and also drop the EGTs - there is also a resistor fix on the MAP sensor (unless that is the one you are suggesting) - I am going to be running a potentiometer instead of a fixed resistor meaning that I can change the resistance and fine tune it.
I am going to try and see what I can get out of the stock setup first using the EDC pump with 6mm elements as a testbed as I know the normal upgrade is to just junk the EDC fuel pump and fit an OM603. I also figure that if I run on the stock ECU but simply uprate the elements the stock fueling delivery would be retained but just moved up higher.
Might be able to fool the ECU into running slightly more boost for the additional fueling although when I do run a larger turbo 18psi on a larger turbo would be flowing a lot more air vs the stock KKK turbo at 18psi. This would mean that if I am injecting around 36% more fuel with the large elements I could look to find a turbo which flows around 36% more air at the same boost level to then burn with the increase in fuel. Its why I am looking for a slightly uprated turbo which would increase the air flow into the engine but keep below the stock boost threshold to avoid the ECU cutting fueling or throwing a code.
05-15-2015, 03:56 AM
#17
do have any problem in remap the curent ECU u have?
the problem with those electric/mechanichal cars/engines u talk about is that or the electronics dont keep the mechanichal mods or the oposite.
what usually people do , is to avoit that mech/electro gap they move to pure electronics wich in a 606 is not posible. or they move in pure mechanichal, wich i dont see any point.
well most are not very aware how a 605/6 engine works. first of all injection time and duration is mechanichal, injection advance is also mechanichal. the electric part is the governor and rack actuator wich instead of a cable and masses is a electroactuator and a position sensor, governing function is thru the ECU based on MAF,RPM, some boost press as comparisson to MAF. it runs also the auto trans and EGR functions, witch otherwise would be a mixt of electrologic and vac actuators and hardware.
i know people wich maped the ECU just to run the engine. they had succes, not 100% but some success.
mater of speach u can´t tune with great success your 606 with EDC pump without a ECU tunner .
the turbo , u can put it to operate pure mechanichal even if it is VNT. for instance the 606 engine uses a turbo just to compensate absolute pressure, this means that most WG actuators are intended to provide 1.2 /1.3 BAR boost. well your current turbo will be able to produce at least 1.6/1.7 bar without having to much EGP, something that can´t be avoided since it is a WG turbo.
on the other hand the VNT types were developed to produce higher amounts of boost in a early RPM , and they have inerently less EGP.
but there are limits, and they dont work very well at high RPM unless they are prepared to do that.
about the EDC pump if u buy a 7.5 mm installation from dieselmeken, phisically that pump will be able to inject 140cc at 4.5 volts, and have the correct rack position for idle/ and constant RPM(steet driving) purposes. after that u just need the ECU tunner in order to use the mechanichal potential of what u acquired.
so, u have a lot of work to be done before changig the turbo. what i use to do is put the engine to smoke and then is time for new bigger turbine. in my opinion if you are able to put your engine somoking like hell, then is time for a new bigger turbine.
regards
FD,
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sorry to bother mitch,
do have any problem in remap the curent ECU u have?
the problem with those electric/mechanichal cars/engines u talk about is that or the electronics dont keep the mechanichal mods or the oposite.
what usually people do , is to avoit that mech/electro gap they move to pure electronics wich in a 606 is not posible. or they move in pure mechanichal, wich i dont see any point.
well most are not very aware how a 605/6 engine works. first of all injection time and duration is mechanichal, injection advance is also mechanichal. the electric part is the governor and rack actuator wich instead of a cable and masses is a electroactuator and a position sensor, governing function is thru the ECU based on MAF,RPM, some boost press as comparisson to MAF. it runs also the auto trans and EGR functions, witch otherwise would be a mixt of electrologic and vac actuators and hardware.
i know people wich maped the ECU just to run the engine. they had succes, not 100% but some success.
mater of speach u can´t tune with great success your 606 with EDC pump without a ECU tunner .
the turbo , u can put it to operate pure mechanichal even if it is VNT. for instance the 606 engine uses a turbo just to compensate absolute pressure, this means that most WG actuators are intended to provide 1.2 /1.3 BAR boost. well your current turbo will be able to produce at least 1.6/1.7 bar without having to much EGP, something that can´t be avoided since it is a WG turbo.
on the other hand the VNT types were developed to produce higher amounts of boost in a early RPM , and they have inerently less EGP.
but there are limits, and they dont work very well at high RPM unless they are prepared to do that.
about the EDC pump if u buy a 7.5 mm installation from dieselmeken, phisically that pump will be able to inject 140cc at 4.5 volts, and have the correct rack position for idle/ and constant RPM(steet driving) purposes. after that u just need the ECU tunner in order to use the mechanichal potential of what u acquired.
so, u have a lot of work to be done before changig the turbo. what i use to do is put the engine to smoke and then is time for new bigger turbine. in my opinion if you are able to put your engine somoking like hell, then is time for a new bigger turbine.
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
05-15-2015, 06:31 AM
#18
(05-15-2015, 03:56 AM)barrote sorry to bother mitch,
do have any problem in remap the curent ECU u have?
the problem with those electric/mechanichal cars/engines u talk about is that or the electronics dont keep the mechanichal mods or the oposite.
what usually people do , is to avoit that mech/electro gap they move to pure electronics wich in a 606 is not posible. or they move in pure mechanichal, wich i dont see any point.
well most are not very aware how a 605/6 engine works. first of all injection time and duration is mechanichal, injection advance is also mechanichal. the electric part is the governor and rack actuator wich instead of a cable and masses is a electroactuator and a position sensor, governing function is thru the ECU based on MAF,RPM, some boost press as comparisson to MAF. it runs also the auto trans and EGR functions, witch otherwise would be a mixt of electrologic and vac actuators and hardware.
i know people wich maped the ECU just to run the engine. they had succes, not 100% but some success.
mater of speach u can´t tune with great success your 606 with EDC pump without a ECU tunner .
the turbo , u can put it to operate pure mechanichal even if it is VNT. for instance the 606 engine uses a turbo just to compensate absolute pressure, this means that most WG actuators are intended to provide 1.2 /1.3 BAR boost. well your current turbo will be able to produce at least 1.6/1.7 bar without having to much EGP, something that can´t be avoided since it is a WG turbo.
on the other hand the VNT types were developed to produce higher amounts of boost in a early RPM , and they have inerently less EGP.
but there are limits, and they dont work very well at high RPM unless they are prepared to do that.
about the EDC pump if u buy a 7.5 mm installation from dieselmeken, phisically that pump will be able to inject 140cc at 4.5 volts, and have the correct rack position for idle/ and constant RPM(steet driving) purposes. after that u just need the ECU tunner in order to use the mechanichal potential of what u acquired.
so, u have a lot of work to be done before changig the turbo. what i use to do is put the engine to smoke and then is time for new bigger turbine. in my opinion if you are able to put your engine somoking like hell, then is time for a new bigger turbine.
regards
The issue I have with remapping is that the ECU chip is not socketed - eg not removable, its also programmed only to my car's VIN so I can't use any other ECU - I am however looking into reading and copying the ECU data to ensure I have a backup, incase the ECU does fail at some point.
I am aware that the engine is mechanical with mechanical injection and mechanical timing with the ECU only controlling the rack actuator, I have also seen videos of another car running a HX35 turbo with everything else 100% stock and it seems to run quite well.
If I do go with an OM603 pump I would need to do other modifications for things such as the gearbox ECU and I am thinking it would throw quite a few codes as the ECU has no clue what is happening as there isn't a signal being sent back saying that there is a fuel pump fitted.
I will be looking to fit a 'piggyback' ECU such as the e-manage ultimate which would adjust the signals being sent out whilst retaining the stock ECU (something I have done previously) but I am just ensuing that I don't modify anything that then causes it to go into a limp home mode.
Furthermore, a modified OM603 pump with uprated elements costs as much as the car which is why I am looking at options with the stock fueling initially.
(05-15-2015, 03:56 AM)barrote sorry to bother mitch,
do have any problem in remap the curent ECU u have?
the problem with those electric/mechanichal cars/engines u talk about is that or the electronics dont keep the mechanichal mods or the oposite.
what usually people do , is to avoit that mech/electro gap they move to pure electronics wich in a 606 is not posible. or they move in pure mechanichal, wich i dont see any point.
well most are not very aware how a 605/6 engine works. first of all injection time and duration is mechanichal, injection advance is also mechanichal. the electric part is the governor and rack actuator wich instead of a cable and masses is a electroactuator and a position sensor, governing function is thru the ECU based on MAF,RPM, some boost press as comparisson to MAF. it runs also the auto trans and EGR functions, witch otherwise would be a mixt of electrologic and vac actuators and hardware.
i know people wich maped the ECU just to run the engine. they had succes, not 100% but some success.
mater of speach u can´t tune with great success your 606 with EDC pump without a ECU tunner .
the turbo , u can put it to operate pure mechanichal even if it is VNT. for instance the 606 engine uses a turbo just to compensate absolute pressure, this means that most WG actuators are intended to provide 1.2 /1.3 BAR boost. well your current turbo will be able to produce at least 1.6/1.7 bar without having to much EGP, something that can´t be avoided since it is a WG turbo.
on the other hand the VNT types were developed to produce higher amounts of boost in a early RPM , and they have inerently less EGP.
but there are limits, and they dont work very well at high RPM unless they are prepared to do that.
about the EDC pump if u buy a 7.5 mm installation from dieselmeken, phisically that pump will be able to inject 140cc at 4.5 volts, and have the correct rack position for idle/ and constant RPM(steet driving) purposes. after that u just need the ECU tunner in order to use the mechanichal potential of what u acquired.
so, u have a lot of work to be done before changig the turbo. what i use to do is put the engine to smoke and then is time for new bigger turbine. in my opinion if you are able to put your engine somoking like hell, then is time for a new bigger turbine.
regards
The issue I have with remapping is that the ECU chip is not socketed - eg not removable, its also programmed only to my car's VIN so I can't use any other ECU - I am however looking into reading and copying the ECU data to ensure I have a backup, incase the ECU does fail at some point.
I am aware that the engine is mechanical with mechanical injection and mechanical timing with the ECU only controlling the rack actuator, I have also seen videos of another car running a HX35 turbo with everything else 100% stock and it seems to run quite well.
If I do go with an OM603 pump I would need to do other modifications for things such as the gearbox ECU and I am thinking it would throw quite a few codes as the ECU has no clue what is happening as there isn't a signal being sent back saying that there is a fuel pump fitted.
I will be looking to fit a 'piggyback' ECU such as the e-manage ultimate which would adjust the signals being sent out whilst retaining the stock ECU (something I have done previously) but I am just ensuing that I don't modify anything that then causes it to go into a limp home mode.
Furthermore, a modified OM603 pump with uprated elements costs as much as the car which is why I am looking at options with the stock fueling initially.
05-18-2015, 02:09 AM
#20
(05-17-2015, 05:08 AM)barrote the thing u mention with the feasibility of changing Your ECU ROM , the ECU are interchangeable between cars , and the ROM can be rewritten.
i dont know how they do it, but i have seen it.
regards.
The ECU ROM can indeed be rewritten however the ECU is locked to the VIN of the car after I believe around 40 starts via the DAS system which isn't reversible - basically if I bought a used ECU and plugged it into my car it wouldn't work as my car wouldn't have the correct VIN matching with the other DAS components. I have seen someone remove the original chip and then replace it with another though, however the actual chip is soldered onto the ECU board rather than being socketed like others. If the ECU was socketed I would be slightly happier with the remap as I could easily just swap chips over, my current ECU flashing software only lists the CDI models but I might be able to read the ECU and get a backup.
Over the weekend I have added in a variable resistor to one of the MAP sensor wires, usually the car boosts to 18psi then drops to 14psi, car is now boosting to 20psi then dropping to 18psi and has increase in power without any flaring from the transmission. I believe the resistor simply makes the ECU increase the duty cycle on the vacuum transducer, I don't think that the fueling is touched meaning that its not injecting additional fuel with just this one cheap simple mod, however it would be using all of the fuel available on the stock tune. I will be running water/meth injection at some point so that would compensate slightly for the extra boost. Its obviously not as good as a remap, but considering there is a performance gain (which I can control between stock and modded easily) cost only £1 or so its not bad
(05-17-2015, 05:08 AM)barrote the thing u mention with the feasibility of changing Your ECU ROM , the ECU are interchangeable between cars , and the ROM can be rewritten.
i dont know how they do it, but i have seen it.
regards.
The ECU ROM can indeed be rewritten however the ECU is locked to the VIN of the car after I believe around 40 starts via the DAS system which isn't reversible - basically if I bought a used ECU and plugged it into my car it wouldn't work as my car wouldn't have the correct VIN matching with the other DAS components. I have seen someone remove the original chip and then replace it with another though, however the actual chip is soldered onto the ECU board rather than being socketed like others. If the ECU was socketed I would be slightly happier with the remap as I could easily just swap chips over, my current ECU flashing software only lists the CDI models but I might be able to read the ECU and get a backup.
Over the weekend I have added in a variable resistor to one of the MAP sensor wires, usually the car boosts to 18psi then drops to 14psi, car is now boosting to 20psi then dropping to 18psi and has increase in power without any flaring from the transmission. I believe the resistor simply makes the ECU increase the duty cycle on the vacuum transducer, I don't think that the fueling is touched meaning that its not injecting additional fuel with just this one cheap simple mod, however it would be using all of the fuel available on the stock tune. I will be running water/meth injection at some point so that would compensate slightly for the extra boost. Its obviously not as good as a remap, but considering there is a performance gain (which I can control between stock and modded easily) cost only £1 or so its not bad
05-19-2015, 02:05 AM
#21
Update: Just bought an OM603 mechanical pump, will look to get this upgraded and fitted over the next couple of years, will be running the stock EDC pump for a while though - will be interesting to see how much power I can get out of it when its coupled with water/meth injection as well.
05-21-2015, 07:33 AM
#23
(05-20-2015, 01:47 PM)barrote well, i see your point with the chip dada thing.
if u want , i can assemble your 603 pump to have a lot of fuel, more than u can ever burn without highly moded engine))
ps: try to buy the right pump
Is there a way I can decypher the Bosch numbers on the pump? I might look to rebuild this one myself, although would need to get it calibrated to work correctly.
I guess when I do switch to the full mechanical pump the ECU wouldn't really be any use anymore from an engine standpoint, I would be running a standard wastegate so the ECU can't do anything about it.
Is there a guide somewhere with the additional things I need to do to the car - I am thinking I would need a different gearbox ECU etc as my guess is that the stock transmission will now panic as it doesn't know how much fuel there or the throttle position etc?
(05-20-2015, 01:47 PM)barrote well, i see your point with the chip dada thing.
if u want , i can assemble your 603 pump to have a lot of fuel, more than u can ever burn without highly moded engine
ps: try to buy the right pump
Is there a way I can decypher the Bosch numbers on the pump? I might look to rebuild this one myself, although would need to get it calibrated to work correctly.
I guess when I do switch to the full mechanical pump the ECU wouldn't really be any use anymore from an engine standpoint, I would be running a standard wastegate so the ECU can't do anything about it.
Is there a guide somewhere with the additional things I need to do to the car - I am thinking I would need a different gearbox ECU etc as my guess is that the stock transmission will now panic as it doesn't know how much fuel there or the throttle position etc?
05-21-2015, 01:18 PM
#24
the pump numbers , they are part numbers, what do u want to do with that pump? there´s nothing u can do besides take it to a diesel shop/fellow to have it rebuilt. and i bet 99,9 % of the diesel shops wont do what u want.
and some fellow´s like me do want nothing to do with a EDC pump.
send it to sweden they know what to do.
regards
FD,
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hey man , i dont know , i´m used to old cars....
the pump numbers , they are part numbers, what do u want to do with that pump? there´s nothing u can do besides take it to a diesel shop/fellow to have it rebuilt. and i bet 99,9 % of the diesel shops wont do what u want.
and some fellow´s like me do want nothing to do with a EDC pump.
send it to sweden they know what to do.
regards
FD,
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05-21-2015, 04:20 PM
#25
(05-21-2015, 01:18 PM)barrote hey man , i dont know , i´m used to old cars....
the pump numbers , they are part numbers, what do u want to do with that pump? there´s nothing u can do besides take it to a diesel shop/fellow to have it rebuilt. and i bet 99,9 % of the diesel shops wont do what u want.
and some fellow´s like me do want nothing to do with a EDC pump.
send it to sweden they know what to do.
regards
I will get it rebuilt by Dieselpumpuk - the Dieselmeken contact in the UK, I know that certain pumps have a slightly higher lift cam, just wondered if there was a way of telling which engine it was originally on etc.
(05-21-2015, 01:18 PM)barrote hey man , i dont know , i´m used to old cars....
the pump numbers , they are part numbers, what do u want to do with that pump? there´s nothing u can do besides take it to a diesel shop/fellow to have it rebuilt. and i bet 99,9 % of the diesel shops wont do what u want.
and some fellow´s like me do want nothing to do with a EDC pump.
send it to sweden they know what to do.
regards
I will get it rebuilt by Dieselpumpuk - the Dieselmeken contact in the UK, I know that certain pumps have a slightly higher lift cam, just wondered if there was a way of telling which engine it was originally on etc.
05-22-2015, 02:35 AM
#26
Governors , they do differ and for instance a Governor from a 603Td wich can be a RS158, worth f%$/&% nothing compared to a RS201 usually found in the 606N/A.
thats what i have experiece on.
FD,
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M pumps from 617 difer from M pumps in 60X, in cam relating issues, no other diff in the main body, EDC pumps have the same cam size.
Governors , they do differ and for instance a Governor from a 603Td wich can be a RS158, worth f%$/&% nothing compared to a RS201 usually found in the 606N/A.
thats what i have experiece on.
FD,
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