Shift kit for 722.6
Shift kit for 722.6
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Just wondering if anyone has made a shift kit for these transmissions. I have olfers controller and love it but I wanted to know if there is anything I can do to help my trans handle the power. Luckily I got a good trans and I hardly have the 3 to 4 flare up like most people have. Anyone messed with raising main line pressure?
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Kind of the whole point of the standalone is you do not need this anyways. You can adjust the pressures from the tcm. I have run 1000+ hp tt hemis with a stock valve body so I think you are ok.
The thing you can do is open up the port for the k3 clutch for the 3-4 flare. This will help. I do not know what the duty cycle range of adjustment is on that tcu setup but if you are able to run around 20% duty cycle then you are pretty much making full pressure that the valve body is capable of 15% is definitely max. Very little deference if any. Maybe a coulple psi.
Same with the shift pressures. Very little to no change after 20-15%. And same is true at above 50-55%. The thing to know is that line pressure during a gear change has an effect on shift pressure from around 30-35% on up.
whipplem104
03-16-2015, 08:23 AM #2I make a valve body for these as a few others do but you need to be very careful. THe balances in the shifts are very important and when you start messing with the valve body you need to make sure that you are not doing more harm than good.
Kind of the whole point of the standalone is you do not need this anyways. You can adjust the pressures from the tcm. I have run 1000+ hp tt hemis with a stock valve body so I think you are ok.
The thing you can do is open up the port for the k3 clutch for the 3-4 flare. This will help. I do not know what the duty cycle range of adjustment is on that tcu setup but if you are able to run around 20% duty cycle then you are pretty much making full pressure that the valve body is capable of 15% is definitely max. Very little deference if any. Maybe a coulple psi.
Same with the shift pressures. Very little to no change after 20-15%. And same is true at above 50-55%. The thing to know is that line pressure during a gear change has an effect on shift pressure from around 30-35% on up.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
I don't know how that can be true about the hemi cars because on my CL65 people have to build the transmissions after 700 WHP and those are supposed to be the strongest transmissions. All I am really looking for is just really to raise up line pressure as I don't want to upset the balance of how they shift. So you sell a valve body?
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Shift kits are not really required in a computer controlled transmission because you can control the shifts with the computer. The only reason to do it in a factory car like the factory Mercedes or Dodge with this transmission is that no one can really tune the factory tcu.
Again I do not know how Ole is doing his pressures but you could ask him. I run a different line pressure scale for when not in a shift. But like I said it depends on the duty cycle it is running. This normally load based. So at full throttle you could put a meter on it and see what the duty cycle is while not in a shift. If it is at or near 20% or less you are fine. If you are slipping with this pressure you need to beef up your transmission. The 722.633 is a v8 transmission with good clutch pack setup so you should be fine with the right duty cycle in the tcu. Unless you are making more than 6-700 lb/ft of torque you might need more.
whipplem104
03-16-2015, 03:40 PM #4The v12tt transmission just has larger planetary gear sets. It really does not have any more clutches in it that a standard v8 transmission. There are many things that change what can make a transmission handle different things. The biggest is the pressures and then torque management makes a huge difference. A lot of the mopar guys are running no torque management at all and very high stall converters. And what I was saying was with a standalone tcu with control over the pressures on a built transmission with a stock valve body.
Shift kits are not really required in a computer controlled transmission because you can control the shifts with the computer. The only reason to do it in a factory car like the factory Mercedes or Dodge with this transmission is that no one can really tune the factory tcu.
Again I do not know how Ole is doing his pressures but you could ask him. I run a different line pressure scale for when not in a shift. But like I said it depends on the duty cycle it is running. This normally load based. So at full throttle you could put a meter on it and see what the duty cycle is while not in a shift. If it is at or near 20% or less you are fine. If you are slipping with this pressure you need to beef up your transmission. The 722.633 is a v8 transmission with good clutch pack setup so you should be fine with the right duty cycle in the tcu. Unless you are making more than 6-700 lb/ft of torque you might need more.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Thanks for the explaination. so your saying since I can control pressures on my car with Ole's controller I should be fine. It would still be nice to get rid of the minor flare up I have because I don't think even with his controller. Like I said mine isn't bad but it's there. As far as my CL65 that I don't have a controller on. Is there a way to make it last or do I have to tear in it to add more clutches?
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
For the 3-4 shift with the standalone you want to do a couple of things. 1st is take the valve body out and open up the port that fills the k3 clutch to about 4-4.5mm. This will help promote filling on the clutch. Then you want to run line pressure higher and acccumulator pressure lower. This will lower the pressure in the valve body that causes the flare up. What is happening in the valve body that you are trying to control is several things. You have the pressure that applies the on coming clutch, lets say k3 for the 3-4 shift. You then also have the draining clutch, which is b2. If you let go of b2 to quickly before k3 fills up and grabs you get the flare. The line pressure is what works against a valve on the opposite side of the fill pressure that controls this drain process. This is overlap control. So to high of accumulator pressure will also cause this problem because it opens this overlap valve.
The thing that is a problem here that I used to have but do not anymore is that if you get the line pressure to high it will cause the 3-4 to kick back to 3rd. This was of course right at the point that I would tune the flare out that it would start to do this.
I changed the way the shift works to get rid of this in a way that is in the setup of the tcu not the regular tuning procedure.
whipplem104
03-16-2015, 04:48 PM #6So 1st on the cl65. Your engine management reduces torque during the gear changes a lot. At full throttle you loose a lot of torque up top in the rpm range from just what the engine does unless you have some real work done but regardless the ecu will reduce engine torque to around 350nm during a wot gear change. The tcu is tuned for this as it is an exact request from the tcu for the shift. I would not worry about it to much.
For the 3-4 shift with the standalone you want to do a couple of things. 1st is take the valve body out and open up the port that fills the k3 clutch to about 4-4.5mm. This will help promote filling on the clutch. Then you want to run line pressure higher and acccumulator pressure lower. This will lower the pressure in the valve body that causes the flare up. What is happening in the valve body that you are trying to control is several things. You have the pressure that applies the on coming clutch, lets say k3 for the 3-4 shift. You then also have the draining clutch, which is b2. If you let go of b2 to quickly before k3 fills up and grabs you get the flare. The line pressure is what works against a valve on the opposite side of the fill pressure that controls this drain process. This is overlap control. So to high of accumulator pressure will also cause this problem because it opens this overlap valve.
The thing that is a problem here that I used to have but do not anymore is that if you get the line pressure to high it will cause the 3-4 to kick back to 3rd. This was of course right at the point that I would tune the flare out that it would start to do this.
I changed the way the shift works to get rid of this in a way that is in the setup of the tcu not the regular tuning procedure.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
On my CL65 I got the tq management signal removed because you loose almost .8 in quarter from it. Makes a 11 second car a 10 second car. That could possibly be why people can only make 750hp before the transmissions go or maybe its because I think these cars are heavy and make a ton of torque. Can I bump up line pressure in my CL65 and not cause to many problems?
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
You can increase the pressures but it makes for some harsh shifts. There is no free lunch. At 750whp you would probably start to slip some clutches. Increased line pressure and shift pressure would help.
whipplem104
03-23-2015, 10:59 AM #8There are a lot of different tq management strategies. But if you do not have it on during shifts then that would definitely make it a problem.
You can increase the pressures but it makes for some harsh shifts. There is no free lunch. At 750whp you would probably start to slip some clutches. Increased line pressure and shift pressure would help.
(03-23-2015, 10:59 AM)whipplem104 There are a lot of different tq management strategies. But if you do not have it on during shifts then that would definitely make it a problem.
You can increase the pressures but it makes for some harsh shifts. There is no free lunch. At 750whp you would probably start to slip some clutches. Increased line pressure and shift pressure would help.
Since you seem to be very knowledgeable, do you know what car has the highest stall converter or where I can find that info. Wondering more for my laggy turbo in my diesel.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
(03-23-2015, 10:59 AM)whipplem104 There are a lot of different tq management strategies. But if you do not have it on during shifts then that would definitely make it a problem.
You can increase the pressures but it makes for some harsh shifts. There is no free lunch. At 750whp you would probably start to slip some clutches. Increased line pressure and shift pressure would help.
Since you seem to be very knowledgeable, do you know what car has the highest stall converter or where I can find that info. Wondering more for my laggy turbo in my diesel.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
whipplem104
03-23-2015, 07:15 PM #10You can just get a converter set up for you. There is not a lot of variance on the Mercedes and your options for an inline 6 are basically all the same. If I had to guess an 4 cylinder might have a little looser converter but none are what I would consider enough different to bother. Just pick a used one up and have it set up and have an extra lock up clutch added if it only has one.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Yeah I am just not looking to spend 1000 bucks like places want.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
whipplem104
03-24-2015, 11:36 AM #12You just need to branch out of the Mercedes world on this stuff. Minus a core converter you would be looking at around 5-600 for a custom stall. People treat this stuff like it is magic because it is Mercedes and they do not inject voodoo into it that no one can figure out. The only reason a torque converter shop would be afraid or charge to much is because they do not want to have to buy a brand new 1300.00 converter. Years ago on the old 4 speeds I could not find anyone to touch a converter until I said do not worry about it if something goes wrong. Then it was a couple hundred bucks and a couple of days for a 2500 rpm stall. They all work the same but when they are new it is a little trial and error. The only time it becomes a big problem is if you are trying for a very loose converter and have pretty big hp and you push through the converter. Normally this is were you would go for a race converter for a domestic product. And I mean big hp as in 1000whp.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Any places you suggest trying?
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
whipplem104
03-24-2015, 06:59 PM #14Honestly I would talk to someone local to you that does converters so it is not a big deal to adjust if necessary. I use a local shop to me. But if you google nag1 converter there are a few businesses that do them out there. But if you want to use the people I use Call Ding's Racing in Vanvouver WA. We do a lot of business together and can certainly help you out.
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