617 Breaking Points?
617 Breaking Points?
06-02-2013, 10:03 AM
#1
How much power/boost do the head gaskets hold?
How much power do the rods hold?
How much power will the stock trans hold?
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold?
What else is a concern with these cars?
Mike
I am looking for the breaking points of the 617. For example:
How much power/boost do the head gaskets hold?
How much power do the rods hold?
How much power will the stock trans hold?
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold?
What else is a concern with these cars?
Mike
06-02-2013, 06:27 PM
#2
The rods are rumored to bend above 2bar
the stock trans....no real idea
the flex disks will let loose with any heavy shock loading (drop the clutch) you can make up aluminum/delrin replacements or convert to U joints.
The main problems with a w123 (other than rust) will be the non-locking torque converter, rubber flex disks, and crappy stock brakes.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-02-2013, 06:27 PM #2Head gasket is rumored to be super strong-BUT there are members who got custom head gaskets made up
The rods are rumored to bend above 2bar
the stock trans....no real idea
the flex disks will let loose with any heavy shock loading (drop the clutch) you can make up aluminum/delrin replacements or convert to U joints.
The main problems with a w123 (other than rust) will be the non-locking torque converter, rubber flex disks, and crappy stock brakes.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
06-02-2013, 10:25 PM
#4
Funny you mention rust - I have completely gutted the interior of my car today starting the rust repair and fixing the water leaks.
Great info, thanks! So, is that 2 bar for the rods at stock'ish power, or 2 bar at 100% more power? I wonder if ARP has studs for this motor? The lack of a lock-up converter is a huge bummer! i wonder if a lock-up converter can be installed and a valve body to control it....
Funny you mention rust - I have completely gutted the interior of my car today starting the rust repair and fixing the water leaks.
06-03-2013, 09:01 AM
#5
Another bottleneck is teh head-the stock head only flows something like (220cfm?). Others have seen gains porting the head and installing larger valves, but there is no off the shelf recipe. Also, pulling the head is $$$-I spent around $600 doing mine, plus $200 of other "while I'm in there" stuff. I don't have the engine in a car so no dyno numbers.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-03-2013, 09:01 AM #5I'm assuming that's 2bar air with matched fueling. If you stuff in 2bar of air and only "1bar" of fuel, you will have increased heat but you won't have too much of an increaes in cylinder pressure.
Another bottleneck is teh head-the stock head only flows something like (220cfm?). Others have seen gains porting the head and installing larger valves, but there is no off the shelf recipe. Also, pulling the head is $$$-I spent around $600 doing mine, plus $200 of other "while I'm in there" stuff. I don't have the engine in a car so no dyno numbers.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
06-03-2013, 11:34 AM
#6
(06-02-2013, 10:25 PM)85-300D I wonder if ARP has studs for this motor?
I called them about a year or so ago to get a set made (had a head in a shop for full race workup), but the dude I spoke with was a total flake, and never contacted me with a price... I called and spoke with him several times and each time it was like he had no idea WTF I was talking about.... I've meant to call back and make sure I get a hold of someone else...
Anyway, I'm sure I could rustle up the numbers I had from measuring the bolts during that project...
Since there is something like 22 head bolts on the 617, youre looking ata pretty pricey venture tho...
Also, not sure about what power levels start killing parts, but I know that after about a minute or so the rings will fail when turning around 9 grand and running on its own motor oil...the rods may have bent too, but havent taken the fukker apart yet to see... still too many other projects to catch up on after many years of avoidance due to school...
This post was last modified: 06-03-2013, 11:49 AM by SurfRodder.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
06-03-2013, 11:34 AM #6(06-02-2013, 10:25 PM)85-300D I wonder if ARP has studs for this motor?
I called them about a year or so ago to get a set made (had a head in a shop for full race workup), but the dude I spoke with was a total flake, and never contacted me with a price... I called and spoke with him several times and each time it was like he had no idea WTF I was talking about.... I've meant to call back and make sure I get a hold of someone else...
Anyway, I'm sure I could rustle up the numbers I had from measuring the bolts during that project...
Since there is something like 22 head bolts on the 617, youre looking ata pretty pricey venture tho...
Also, not sure about what power levels start killing parts, but I know that after about a minute or so the rings will fail when turning around 9 grand and running on its own motor oil...the rods may have bent too, but havent taken the fukker apart yet to see... still too many other projects to catch up on after many years of avoidance due to school...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
06-03-2013, 07:12 PM
#7
(06-02-2013, 10:25 PM)85-300D The lack of a lock-up converter is a huge bummer! i wonder if a lock-up converter can be installed and a valve body to control it....
It really is a bummer. Probably one of the biggest reasons that there aren't a lot of tuned 617's out there is trans limitations. None of the 4 speeds came with lockup converters so there's no way to add one. Best plan is to dump the original trans. Have you considered doing something balls out like cutting and welding on a bellhousing or an adapter plate?
raysorenson
06-03-2013, 07:12 PM #7(06-02-2013, 10:25 PM)85-300D The lack of a lock-up converter is a huge bummer! i wonder if a lock-up converter can be installed and a valve body to control it....
It really is a bummer. Probably one of the biggest reasons that there aren't a lot of tuned 617's out there is trans limitations. None of the 4 speeds came with lockup converters so there's no way to add one. Best plan is to dump the original trans. Have you considered doing something balls out like cutting and welding on a bellhousing or an adapter plate?
06-04-2013, 12:48 AM
#8
How much power do the rods hold = Weakest point in the engine, 2.4bar starts the bending process
How much power will the stock trans hold = Nothing, needs some working, but after that holds over 400hp no problem.
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold = if from 300sd then no problem till 400hp
What else is a concern with these cars = Head job with bigger valves and re-worked channels, good custom intake and exhaust manifold there is your ticket for more power. Also if high mileage engine then proper overhaul with new bearings+pistons is a must!
Mine is still running strong after all these years with almost 400hp.
- MB w126 300SD Superturbo (US) -83, Mods: OM617A with custom head work, Master Power Turbo 802332, PP-Diesel custom 7mm IP, China intercooler, KKD-Motorsport exhaust manifold, DIY intake manifold, Coolmist Waterinjection, DIY Supermeter display/datalog with PLX Wideband Lambda, Siekkinen custom 722.3 autotrans, Elbe Performance LSD, Green Filter cold air intake, straight 3" exhaust with two dual 2.5" outputs
- MB r129 500SL AMG (JDM) -94
Full AMG bodykit, full JDM features, modified ECU and exhaust
- MB w123 250E-TT (JDM) -85
Full 1JZ-GTE twinturbo conversion, full aircon, custom china cooler, custom IC-pipes, custom sport recaro interior, custom 3-piece JDM rims
How much power/boost do the head gaskets hold = over 2.5bar no problem
How much power do the rods hold = Weakest point in the engine, 2.4bar starts the bending process
How much power will the stock trans hold = Nothing, needs some working, but after that holds over 400hp no problem.
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold = if from 300sd then no problem till 400hp
What else is a concern with these cars = Head job with bigger valves and re-worked channels, good custom intake and exhaust manifold there is your ticket for more power. Also if high mileage engine then proper overhaul with new bearings+pistons is a must!
Mine is still running strong after all these years with almost 400hp.
- MB w126 300SD Superturbo (US) -83, Mods: OM617A with custom head work, Master Power Turbo 802332, PP-Diesel custom 7mm IP, China intercooler, KKD-Motorsport exhaust manifold, DIY intake manifold, Coolmist Waterinjection, DIY Supermeter display/datalog with PLX Wideband Lambda, Siekkinen custom 722.3 autotrans, Elbe Performance LSD, Green Filter cold air intake, straight 3" exhaust with two dual 2.5" outputs
- MB r129 500SL AMG (JDM) -94
Full AMG bodykit, full JDM features, modified ECU and exhaust
- MB w123 250E-TT (JDM) -85
Full 1JZ-GTE twinturbo conversion, full aircon, custom china cooler, custom IC-pipes, custom sport recaro interior, custom 3-piece JDM rims
06-04-2013, 09:02 AM
#9
(06-04-2013, 12:48 AM)JTY How much power/boost do the head gaskets hold = over 2.5bar no problem
How much power do the rods hold = Weakest point in the engine, 2.4bar starts the bending process
How much power will the stock trans hold = Nothing, needs some working, but after that holds over 400hp no problem.
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold = if from 300sd then no problem till 400hp
What else is a concern with these cars = Head job with bigger valves and re-worked channels, good custom intake and exhaust manifold there is your ticket for more power. Also if high mileage engine then proper overhaul with new bearings+pistons is a must!
Mine is still running strong after all these years with almost 400hp.
JTY-do oyu have any photos of your port job & big valve job?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-04-2013, 09:02 AM #9(06-04-2013, 12:48 AM)JTY How much power/boost do the head gaskets hold = over 2.5bar no problem
How much power do the rods hold = Weakest point in the engine, 2.4bar starts the bending process
How much power will the stock trans hold = Nothing, needs some working, but after that holds over 400hp no problem.
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold = if from 300sd then no problem till 400hp
What else is a concern with these cars = Head job with bigger valves and re-worked channels, good custom intake and exhaust manifold there is your ticket for more power. Also if high mileage engine then proper overhaul with new bearings+pistons is a must!
Mine is still running strong after all these years with almost 400hp.
JTY-do oyu have any photos of your port job & big valve job?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
06-04-2013, 12:12 PM
#10
(06-04-2013, 09:02 AM)Simpler=Better JTY-do oyu have any photos of your port job & big valve job?
+1... curious to see what was done for 400HP...
I never went thru with my headwork, but the guy took preliminary measurements to see what machining could be done to make use of modern valve seals and what "stock" size valves could be used/modified to fit to increase the flow thru the head... the guy does all the porting for TRD and had a small personal machine shop for these type of projects, but neither one of us was really anxious to finish the project at the time.. I had the money (probably was gonna run $1200 or so all said and done) last year about this time, just not enough time to actually dedicate to another head swap...now im outta school, but have no money, go figure...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
06-04-2013, 12:12 PM #10(06-04-2013, 09:02 AM)Simpler=Better JTY-do oyu have any photos of your port job & big valve job?
+1... curious to see what was done for 400HP...
I never went thru with my headwork, but the guy took preliminary measurements to see what machining could be done to make use of modern valve seals and what "stock" size valves could be used/modified to fit to increase the flow thru the head... the guy does all the porting for TRD and had a small personal machine shop for these type of projects, but neither one of us was really anxious to finish the project at the time.. I had the money (probably was gonna run $1200 or so all said and done) last year about this time, just not enough time to actually dedicate to another head swap...now im outta school, but have no money, go figure...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
06-04-2013, 05:53 PM
#11
(06-04-2013, 12:48 AM)JTY How much power/boost do the head gaskets hold = over 2.5bar no problem
How much power do the rods hold = Weakest point in the engine, 2.4bar starts the bending process
How much power will the stock trans hold = Nothing, needs some working, but after that holds over 400hp no problem.
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold = if from 300sd then no problem till 400hp
What else is a concern with these cars = Head job with bigger valves and re-worked channels, good custom intake and exhaust manifold there is your ticket for more power. Also if high mileage engine then proper overhaul with new bearings+pistons is a must!
Mine is still running strong after all these years with almost 400hp.
This helps! Have you ran your car on a dyno, or at the track? Or is 400hp an estimate? Would you mind sharing your "recipe" for 400hp on one of these cars (engine mods, trans mods, etc.)? I am trying to put together a list of parts and get an idea of what it going to take for time and money. I haven't been able to fin a "built" tranny kit for this application. Is there a difference between the drive shafts on the 300d and the 300sd?
(06-04-2013, 12:48 AM)JTY How much power/boost do the head gaskets hold = over 2.5bar no problem
How much power do the rods hold = Weakest point in the engine, 2.4bar starts the bending process
How much power will the stock trans hold = Nothing, needs some working, but after that holds over 400hp no problem.
How much power does the stock drive shaft and and rear end hold = if from 300sd then no problem till 400hp
What else is a concern with these cars = Head job with bigger valves and re-worked channels, good custom intake and exhaust manifold there is your ticket for more power. Also if high mileage engine then proper overhaul with new bearings+pistons is a must!
Mine is still running strong after all these years with almost 400hp.
This helps! Have you ran your car on a dyno, or at the track? Or is 400hp an estimate? Would you mind sharing your "recipe" for 400hp on one of these cars (engine mods, trans mods, etc.)? I am trying to put together a list of parts and get an idea of what it going to take for time and money. I haven't been able to fin a "built" tranny kit for this application. Is there a difference between the drive shafts on the 300d and the 300sd?
06-04-2013, 07:19 PM
#12
LiL Micky
DirtDiesel
06-04-2013, 07:19 PM #12if its the car in your signature then it has the 617A. which please correct if im wrong. but i understand it handles more boost then the 617. and the rods dont bend as soon as the 617 does. if i recall correctly.
LiL Micky
06-04-2013, 07:30 PM
#13
(06-04-2013, 07:19 PM)DirtDiesel if its the car in your signature then it has the 617A. which please correct if im wrong. but i understand it handles more boost then the 617. and the rods dont bend as soon as the 617 does. if i recall correctly.
How do you know if the engine is a 617 or a 617a?
06-04-2013, 08:14 PM
#14
JTY's build thread is here: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...hp?tid=996
raysorenson
06-04-2013, 08:14 PM #14617a is quasi legitimate nomenclature for a turbo 617. Somebody correct me if they can.
JTY's build thread is here: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...hp?tid=996
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