Building Power Basics?
Building Power Basics?
Thanks,
Mike
Hi. I have been building diesel trucks for a living for about 10 years, but have never played with a mercedes diesels. I just bought an '85 300D, and need some help with the basic upgrades/strengths/weaknesses of this car. I may just use it for commuting, but considering my past it may end up a toy or project car. I have done a little research, but am looking for more. How much power/boost will the head gasket generally hold? How many rpms can the motor safely spin? How much power are the stock rods and pistons good for? What are some good injection pump upgrades? Auto trans upgrades. How much power can be made and still have the car be reliable, and a daily driver? I'm sure 300-450hp would be fun. Any info is appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
First of all if I was you, I would look for the Turbo Engine. The existing 300D N/A engine you have is Not a good base to start with--LOTS of differences between the two....
Be prepared to spend LOTS of dosh to squeeze 400 BHP from even a Turbo 617!
Better bet would be a 603 or a 606 from a Later car--more tunable for that sorta power--and you gotta replace the N/A engine anyway!
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
05-20-2013, 09:26 AM #2Hmm--
First of all if I was you, I would look for the Turbo Engine. The existing 300D N/A engine you have is Not a good base to start with--LOTS of differences between the two....
Be prepared to spend LOTS of dosh to squeeze 400 BHP from even a Turbo 617!
Better bet would be a 603 or a 606 from a Later car--more tunable for that sorta power--and you gotta replace the N/A engine anyway!
As alastair said, if you want over 250, om606 is the only way to go.
Cross flow head, 4 valve head, readily availible IP parts, etc..
Its the 12v of the Mercedes I guess you could say
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
The om617 aren't really powerhouses.
As alastair said, if you want over 250, om606 is the only way to go.
Cross flow head, 4 valve head, readily availible IP parts, etc..
Its the 12v of the Mercedes I guess you could say
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Oh, ok. So 250hp (rear wheel hp?) is about the limit of the 617 due to the basic design/setup of the engine? The 606 sounds like fun if it is the 12valve of mercedes! Could you just put a 606 head, cam, and pump, on a 617, and have something similar to a 606? Or, is the 606 a completely different animal? I like your avatar!
raysorenson
05-20-2013, 11:02 AM #6250 is probably nowhere near the limit. However the cost of getting to or past 250 on a 617 would be as much or more than building an OM603 or 606 including the swap and you'd be left with a less flexible motor. The high power 617 builds that I've seen seem to be money is no object builds where the owner is determined to do it with a 617 despite it's shortcomings.
Something like a larger turbo (not sure what would work well on this motor), larger pump elements (again not sure what size), pump tuning, lift pump, head studs(?), egr delete, intake, exhaust? What else should I be looking at? Is the head the biggest thing that is going to be holding me back? Or, will the pump just not flow much fuel? Are the rods or pistons weak? I did a compression test yesterday and all 5 cylinders were right at or just barely under 400psi.
I guess since the 617 is what I have right now, I am curious what can be done within reason.
Something like a larger turbo (not sure what would work well on this motor), larger pump elements (again not sure what size), pump tuning, lift pump, head studs(?), egr delete, intake, exhaust? What else should I be looking at? Is the head the biggest thing that is going to be holding me back? Or, will the pump just not flow much fuel? Are the rods or pistons weak? I did a compression test yesterday and all 5 cylinders were right at or just barely under 400psi.
Balancing the internals and porting the head/manifolds always helps too.
The rods will supposedly hold you back above 2bar. The 2valve head is also a big restriction. Some guys here have larger valves in the head.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
05-20-2013, 12:35 PM #810MM pump elements, an HX35, reamed prechambers, and custom manifolds would get you at least 250hp. The pump is estimated at $1,000-$1,500, hx35 is common, and the custom manifolds go for around $900(but you can always weld your own). With that setup you would have some turbo lag, but plenty of power.
Balancing the internals and porting the head/manifolds always helps too.
The rods will supposedly hold you back above 2bar. The 2valve head is also a big restriction. Some guys here have larger valves in the head.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
05-20-2013, 03:11 PM #10The HX35 would be a little slow to spool, a large VNT would be better for quick response. I have faith in Dieselmenken to setup the pump to be driveable and also make power. Your mileage would be terrible though-you'd never be able to resist flooring it
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Also, what about auto trans upgrades to hold the additional power?
I'm not sure who Dieselmenken is - does he do pump work?. I would probably just have a local shop I work with swap parts and calibrate the pump. Mileage is still somewhat important as that is part of the reason for buying the car. I also have a 2006 dodge/cummins that I don't want to put so many miles on. It makes 670hp at the tires and gets 17-19mpg commuting to work.
Also, what about auto trans upgrades to hold the additional power?
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
If you really wanna build up something hot, 606 is the only way to go. 617 is just a tractor. And if you look for a 603 you might as well look for a 606. Maybe find a smashed car/motor for 3k or something. Too bad america has so few 606.
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
Then I realized I am still pushing around a 4-5k lb boat anchor with an automatic trans...
So I just do a little here and a little there. It's fun to see how tuning can change mileage and power, even though I dont have alot of it
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
When i first got mine I thought I was going to be on top of the world, throw some fuel at it, bigger charger, maybe water-meth injection, some bigger injectors, etc...
Then I realized I am still pushing around a 4-5k lb boat anchor with an automatic trans...
So I just do a little here and a little there. It's fun to see how tuning can change mileage and power, even though I dont have alot of it
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
High numbers are possible but it takes money. Kinda like tuning a harley up to 250hp-when you could just slap a turbo on a hayabusa and get there much cheaper and easier.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
05-20-2013, 10:06 PM #16Yeah, I feel ya. My 617 goal has gone from 450hp to 200hp/350tq. If I can get 5L v8 performance from a 3L 5cyl I'll be happy
High numbers are possible but it takes money. Kinda like tuning a harley up to 250hp-when you could just slap a turbo on a hayabusa and get there much cheaper and easier.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
I have been doing a little searching and it looks like several years ago there were quite a few people trying to make some power with this engine. It looked like there were several people who installed 10mm elements - did any of them actually complete the project and post results?
(05-22-2013, 04:02 PM)85-300D I have been doing a little searching and it looks like several years ago there were quite a few people trying to make some power with this engine. It looked like there were several people who installed 10mm elements - did any of them actually complete the project and post results?
I think OM616 is the only one that has done it, and I can't remember what the end results were.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(05-22-2013, 04:02 PM)85-300D I have been doing a little searching and it looks like several years ago there were quite a few people trying to make some power with this engine. It looked like there were several people who installed 10mm elements - did any of them actually complete the project and post results?
I think OM616 is the only one that has done it, and I can't remember what the end results were.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(05-22-2013, 08:42 PM)MFSuper90(05-22-2013, 04:02 PM)85-300D I have been doing a little searching and it looks like several years ago there were quite a few people trying to make some power with this engine. It looked like there were several people who installed 10mm elements - did any of them actually complete the project and post results?
I think OM616 is the only one that has done it, and I can't remember what the end results were.
He's still alive so I'd say it went well
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
05-23-2013, 08:13 AM #19(05-22-2013, 08:42 PM)MFSuper90(05-22-2013, 04:02 PM)85-300D I have been doing a little searching and it looks like several years ago there were quite a few people trying to make some power with this engine. It looked like there were several people who installed 10mm elements - did any of them actually complete the project and post results?
I think OM616 is the only one that has done it, and I can't remember what the end results were.
He's still alive so I'd say it went well
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(05-23-2013, 08:13 AM)Simpler=Better I think OM616 is the only one that has done it, and I can't remember what the end results were.
He's still alive so I'd say it went well
[/quote]
lol... Yes I am still alive, but I am not the only one who has installed 10mm elements into a MW pump, certainly not the first to do so either....
I just ordered some Delivery Valves for the next 10mm turbo 616 pump builds, so progress is being made for those who I committed to build a pump for.
To really take advantage of the larger elements one needs to upgrade the nozzles and mod the prechambers. I also want to recurve the advance mechanism so I can run more advance and have it come in sooner.
Dieselmeken had a 10mm MW for sale a while ago, not sure what elements or DVs he chose to use, (there are many different ones available). You might try to contact him and see how much he wants for it.
(05-23-2013, 08:13 AM)Simpler=Better I think OM616 is the only one that has done it, and I can't remember what the end results were.
He's still alive so I'd say it went well
[/quote]
lol... Yes I am still alive, but I am not the only one who has installed 10mm elements into a MW pump, certainly not the first to do so either....
I just ordered some Delivery Valves for the next 10mm turbo 616 pump builds, so progress is being made for those who I committed to build a pump for.
To really take advantage of the larger elements one needs to upgrade the nozzles and mod the prechambers. I also want to recurve the advance mechanism so I can run more advance and have it come in sooner.
Dieselmeken had a 10mm MW for sale a while ago, not sure what elements or DVs he chose to use, (there are many different ones available). You might try to contact him and see how much he wants for it.
I have been seeing more about the "m" pump. Is this something that works better than the mw, and can be installed in place of the mw?
Glad to see that it didn't blow you up! How do they drive? Is it something that you can drive everyday, or is it to touchy and smoky?
I have been seeing more about the "m" pump. Is this something that works better than the mw, and can be installed in place of the mw?
(05-23-2013, 07:47 PM)85-300D Glad to see that it didn't blow you up! How do they drive? Is it something that you can drive everyday, or is it to touchy and smoky?
It all depends on what parts are selected and how the governor is tuned. The first pump I built, I basically set the max delivery to match the pump that was installed previously and was turned up, about 60cc/K. The benefits from a shorter delivery time definitely were noticeable, the trans started slipping badly and after some abuse, spit some parts out the side of the case..
If properly tuned, along with the additional parts in the system upgraded to match the larger elements, it will drive fine. If not tuned properly or the wrong parts are used, it is easy to end up with a pulling tractor lol.
(05-23-2013, 07:47 PM)85-300D I have been seeing more about the "m" pump. Is this something that works better than the mw, and can be installed in place of the mw?
Europe is the only place that has had a long passion for high output MBs, and Euro models were built with M pumps, not MW. The MW pumps were put on USA cars, so as a result, all you see is M pump this and M pump that. If it had been the other way around, you would see MW performance parts and nothing for the M.
Aside from the oil supply to the pump, the high pressure tubes, and possibly the linkage, either pump can be used on a 61X engine. Personally I prefer the MW, but that is just me...
(05-23-2013, 07:47 PM)85-300D Glad to see that it didn't blow you up! How do they drive? Is it something that you can drive everyday, or is it to touchy and smoky?
It all depends on what parts are selected and how the governor is tuned. The first pump I built, I basically set the max delivery to match the pump that was installed previously and was turned up, about 60cc/K. The benefits from a shorter delivery time definitely were noticeable, the trans started slipping badly and after some abuse, spit some parts out the side of the case..
If properly tuned, along with the additional parts in the system upgraded to match the larger elements, it will drive fine. If not tuned properly or the wrong parts are used, it is easy to end up with a pulling tractor lol.
(05-23-2013, 07:47 PM)85-300D I have been seeing more about the "m" pump. Is this something that works better than the mw, and can be installed in place of the mw?
Europe is the only place that has had a long passion for high output MBs, and Euro models were built with M pumps, not MW. The MW pumps were put on USA cars, so as a result, all you see is M pump this and M pump that. If it had been the other way around, you would see MW performance parts and nothing for the M.
Aside from the oil supply to the pump, the high pressure tubes, and possibly the linkage, either pump can be used on a 61X engine. Personally I prefer the MW, but that is just me...
Great info. Are you a pump builder? I spoke with Oregon fuel injection yesterday (since i am a dealer for them) and was told that the governors have a hard time controlling the larger elements, and that the Chinese elements are poor quality. I was told that the mw pump will only flow an additional 10% when maxed out with stock parts. Is there someone who can set up the pump to run properly with the larger elements so that it can still be a nice be a nice daily driver?
(05-24-2013, 10:35 AM)85-300D Great info. Are you a pump builder? I spoke with Oregon fuel injection yesterday (since i am a dealer for them) and was told that the governors have a hard time controlling the larger elements, and that the Chinese elements are poor quality. I was told that the mw pump will only flow an additional 10% when maxed out with stock parts. Is there someone who can set up the pump to run properly with the larger elements so that it can still be a nice be a nice daily driver?
Like I said, only Europe does high performance work, so there is VERY LITTLE high performance knowledge in the USA, be it for MW or M pumps. Even Cummins pump shops are not much help because the governors are different.
Bosch trained techs are only trained to follow the manual, to deviate from Bosch protocol could result in a revocation of their dealership. As a result, hardly anyone knows how to adjust the RW governor for any other pump configuration than stock.
The RW governor is very tuneable if one knows what one is doing. Also, the pump shop you spoke to must not do any heavy equipment, as the MW pump is used on lots of heavy equipment, and although they use a different governor, it is the rack position to fueling output that is important. That is where using the correct combination of parts that makes a very drivable pump, or, an on or off pulling tractor pump.
As for the China elements, yes they are not made as precise as Bosch elements. I have found that it is the end of injection helix that needs to be addressed, so I grind the helix to true it up and make them all match, resulting in a good balance capability. I also add an additional fill port to the barrel.
The stock pump puts out plenty of fuel as it is, however, the governor pulls it back so quickly that in reality, you are only seeing about 60ish % of fueling at the best, most aggressive point in the curve.
By tuning the governor, you can shift the fueling curve down providing more low end power and with enough boost, delay the reduction of the fuel on the top end. Modification of the prechambers will allow more fueling and additional advance. The stock pump is all about emissions, not power, but power is hiding in the adjustments, you just have to cokes it out.
Yes, I have built and adjusted some MW pumps....However, there are a couple of pump shops that have a guy that has done some HP MB pump work in the USA. Greazzer has a thread looking for a pump shop, check it out.
Lack of knowledge about the MW/RW, pump/governor combination has resulted in a mindset that there is nothing that can be done with it, and that you have no choice but to get a M pump... Poppy cock!!!
(05-24-2013, 10:35 AM)85-300D Great info. Are you a pump builder? I spoke with Oregon fuel injection yesterday (since i am a dealer for them) and was told that the governors have a hard time controlling the larger elements, and that the Chinese elements are poor quality. I was told that the mw pump will only flow an additional 10% when maxed out with stock parts. Is there someone who can set up the pump to run properly with the larger elements so that it can still be a nice be a nice daily driver?
Like I said, only Europe does high performance work, so there is VERY LITTLE high performance knowledge in the USA, be it for MW or M pumps. Even Cummins pump shops are not much help because the governors are different.
Bosch trained techs are only trained to follow the manual, to deviate from Bosch protocol could result in a revocation of their dealership. As a result, hardly anyone knows how to adjust the RW governor for any other pump configuration than stock.
The RW governor is very tuneable if one knows what one is doing. Also, the pump shop you spoke to must not do any heavy equipment, as the MW pump is used on lots of heavy equipment, and although they use a different governor, it is the rack position to fueling output that is important. That is where using the correct combination of parts that makes a very drivable pump, or, an on or off pulling tractor pump.
As for the China elements, yes they are not made as precise as Bosch elements. I have found that it is the end of injection helix that needs to be addressed, so I grind the helix to true it up and make them all match, resulting in a good balance capability. I also add an additional fill port to the barrel.
The stock pump puts out plenty of fuel as it is, however, the governor pulls it back so quickly that in reality, you are only seeing about 60ish % of fueling at the best, most aggressive point in the curve.
By tuning the governor, you can shift the fueling curve down providing more low end power and with enough boost, delay the reduction of the fuel on the top end. Modification of the prechambers will allow more fueling and additional advance. The stock pump is all about emissions, not power, but power is hiding in the adjustments, you just have to cokes it out.
Yes, I have built and adjusted some MW pumps....However, there are a couple of pump shops that have a guy that has done some HP MB pump work in the USA. Greazzer has a thread looking for a pump shop, check it out.
Lack of knowledge about the MW/RW, pump/governor combination has resulted in a mindset that there is nothing that can be done with it, and that you have no choice but to get a M pump... Poppy cock!!!
As for power, the 617 just needs a little more work than a 606, and while you can't get nearly as much power there is room for enough improvement to make the car a fun driver
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
05-28-2013, 02:17 PM #26The prechambers are removable with the head on the engine, the glowplugs need to be out, and you need a. special tool that screws into the injector hole that holds another tool down tight so you can take the retaining collar off, then I believe a slide hammer is needed to pull it out usually.
As for power, the 617 just needs a little more work than a 606, and while you can't get nearly as much power there is room for enough improvement to make the car a fun driver
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
there is a 245hp 616 out there, this is the 4 cylinder engine, so the 5 should be able to do 20% more. I believe it was stock inside but don't know for sure.
I would suggest just reaming the pre chambers(.010"-.020" per hole) and doing some pump adjustments, and of course the basic maintenance just to see what you have. You will notice quite an improvement. then get more serious
there is a 245hp 616 out there, this is the 4 cylinder engine, so the 5 should be able to do 20% more. I believe it was stock inside but don't know for sure.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
05-29-2013, 09:47 PM #29I haven't done it (yet). Go big or go home, there are always junk yards if you break something that's my mantra
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
You do not have to do it( ream pc's) but it really does help, and at least from the engines I have tuned, I would not bother doing any tuning beyond stock without doing it. No downside that I have found. How big to go before it would be to much, not sure, but.010 will do nicely, and is about what I have done on a few engines. Others have gone a bit more, and I did go to larger pc that had larger holes to begin with( then the original ones) then enlarged them, so right now I am a good bit larger then stock on my 240 (616) which I have rebuilt and added a turbo to. With a stock injection pump turned up I am running about 16lbs boost at full power.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-03-2013, 09:02 AM #32There is a long thread about it on here, you should be able to find it using the search function. They mean literally using a reamer-a drill is too coarse. You can build a tool or rent one from random people here and on PP.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
the pc's are hardened, so you will need a carbide reamer. If you are careful you can actually get away with using a dremal tool with carbide burrs, just be sure to follow the angle of the original holes. you do not want a butcher job, so whatever you do, do it well.
(06-03-2013, 03:58 PM)ronnie the pc's are hardened, so you will need a carbide reamer. If you are careful you can actually get away with using a dremal tool with carbide burrs, just be sure to follow the angle of the original holes. you do not want a butcher job, so whatever you do, do it well.
Also, make sure that all the PCs match. You don't want an imbalance
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-04-2013, 09:07 AM #34(06-03-2013, 03:58 PM)ronnie the pc's are hardened, so you will need a carbide reamer. If you are careful you can actually get away with using a dremal tool with carbide burrs, just be sure to follow the angle of the original holes. you do not want a butcher job, so whatever you do, do it well.
Also, make sure that all the PCs match. You don't want an imbalance
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
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