Om605 compound turbo build, my Corolla Ke70 tracktoy
Om605 compound turbo build, my Corolla Ke70 tracktoy
Petter please forgive me for saying it but if some one say to me -"I have bougt the turbos from Petter, the Norwegian go-to-guy and Holset expert" there has been putting a lot of trust in you and you answer -"My compound models where based on shitty flowing VAG engines so I didn't see this problem until I upgraded my model for these OM60* engines" well that make me speechless
And please do not make this into a flame war, that is not the point at all here, I think we can agree on that this is a great build and need some help for getting turbo to work properly,
stamsaas come up with what you want in performance so Peter can help you completing it! I do not know holset turbos that well for helping you out here, simply there is nothing to work on.
Simply I just wanted to know how you think in the set up and by discussing it some useful information to the members of this forum
I do not understand much of this but what I do understand is there is no planing at all, how can there be success in the end!? Two turbo set up like this do not by accident going to work. If you want to do a compound set up you want a lot of boost in the first place, one turbo out of pressure ratio and faster spool. If you want a sequential set up these turbos is way to close to each other if you want good performance, just look at the R2S systems for example to start with.
Petter please forgive me for saying it but if some one say to me -"I have bougt the turbos from Petter, the Norwegian go-to-guy and Holset expert" there has been putting a lot of trust in you and you answer -"My compound models where based on shitty flowing VAG engines so I didn't see this problem until I upgraded my model for these OM60* engines" well that make me speechless
And please do not make this into a flame war, that is not the point at all here, I think we can agree on that this is a great build and need some help for getting turbo to work properly,
stamsaas come up with what you want in performance so Peter can help you completing it! I do not know holset turbos that well for helping you out here, simply there is nothing to work on.
Simply I just wanted to know how you think in the set up and by discussing it some useful information to the members of this forum
(06-04-2015, 02:12 PM)Turbo I do not understand much of this but what I do understand is there is no planing at all
You are right, you don't understand much then :p There is lots of planning behind this setup, it's just a mismatch on volumetric efficiency that hurts at the top of the rev range. Would have worked very good with a lower RPM limit but that's not what one really want on a STD.
Have you ever seen or worked on a compound setup in real life? I have seen you trolling around the web discussing these subjects but never seen any thing being built
I have both compressor maps and turbine maps for these turbos, and no I will not share it with you. These two will work much better in a compound where there is a lot worse volumetric efficiency and more total PR needed per lbs/min of air flow as both turbos really are high-boost turbos, but the HX30W just don't do it with a very high revving OM605 anyway (unless using a higher trim compressor) For these engines there are other turbos that would work much better in a compound setup but the price tag is insanely much higher than what Stamsaas paid for these Holset turbos.
Yes, you could in theory go with even bigger difference between the turbos in size with a sequential but the topic here was really the options for the existing setup. Transient behaviour also looks quite different than static calculations for a sequential compound with very big LP turbo and severe lag. Then there is the issue with controlling the sequential setup.
The biggest overseen factor in compound setups is the turbine choke flow maps, they are really the driver for turbo selection, then choose the appropriate compressor that will do the job most efficiently.
(06-04-2015, 02:12 PM)Turbo I do not understand much of this but what I do understand is there is no planing at all
You are right, you don't understand much then :p There is lots of planning behind this setup, it's just a mismatch on volumetric efficiency that hurts at the top of the rev range. Would have worked very good with a lower RPM limit but that's not what one really want on a STD.
Have you ever seen or worked on a compound setup in real life? I have seen you trolling around the web discussing these subjects but never seen any thing being built
I have both compressor maps and turbine maps for these turbos, and no I will not share it with you. These two will work much better in a compound where there is a lot worse volumetric efficiency and more total PR needed per lbs/min of air flow as both turbos really are high-boost turbos, but the HX30W just don't do it with a very high revving OM605 anyway (unless using a higher trim compressor) For these engines there are other turbos that would work much better in a compound setup but the price tag is insanely much higher than what Stamsaas paid for these Holset turbos.
Yes, you could in theory go with even bigger difference between the turbos in size with a sequential but the topic here was really the options for the existing setup. Transient behaviour also looks quite different than static calculations for a sequential compound with very big LP turbo and severe lag. Then there is the issue with controlling the sequential setup.
The biggest overseen factor in compound setups is the turbine choke flow maps, they are really the driver for turbo selection, then choose the appropriate compressor that will do the job most efficiently.
the discussion at www.tdiclub.com with you was much more pleasant there I must say
if you want sand låde nivå med kasta grus på varandra så är ja inte alls intresserad men min ena son älskar det, du kanske vill leka med honom? sorry could not help my self there, at some circumstances the horn in the forehead starts to grow out no matter how hard I tryI am no expert But I do know the basic in turbo machinery, I am a engineer to profession so please get it down in technical terms and we can discuss sizing, perhaps we both will learn something out it so I think it would be of good benefits for both of us and a great deal of fun actually, I will look forward to do that with you but then you did say something about not want to share compressor or turbine maps so it really got hard fast, Hmm have you worked for precession turbo, they like secrets not to mention bosch
Guess what, I am quite happy getting my hands dirty, Oh I am building some but some parts has not really taken the away I would hope and when some close friends died I lost a lost a lot of momentum and I am not the "The Boy with the Golden Trousers"
If I only know how to post pictures I could give you some pictures and I guess that would give you a better picture...
Well Petter, yes I do not know much, in my opinion the more you do know, the more you realise you do not know, you seams to have a better memory then me too since I can not remember asking you for the compressor and turbine maps for the Holsets the discussion at www.tdiclub.com with you was much more pleasant there I must say if you want sand låde nivå med kasta grus på varandra så är ja inte alls intresserad men min ena son älskar det, du kanske vill leka med honom? sorry could not help my self there, at some circumstances the horn in the forehead starts to grow out no matter how hard I try
I am no expert But I do know the basic in turbo machinery, I am a engineer to profession so please get it down in technical terms and we can discuss sizing, perhaps we both will learn something out it so I think it would be of good benefits for both of us and a great deal of fun actually, I will look forward to do that with you but then you did say something about not want to share compressor or turbine maps so it really got hard fast, Hmm have you worked for precession turbo, they like secrets not to mention bosch
Guess what, I am quite happy getting my hands dirty, Oh I am building some but some parts has not really taken the away I would hope and when some close friends died I lost a lost a lot of momentum and I am not the "The Boy with the Golden Trousers"
If I only know how to post pictures I could give you some pictures and I guess that would give you a better picture...
(06-04-2015, 05:31 PM)Turbo I am a engineer to profession so please get it down in technical terms and we can discuss sizing, perhaps we both will learn something out it so I think it would be of good benefits for both of us and a great deal of fun actually
I am engineer as well
The corrected mass flow from the HX40W is outside of the choke line of the HX30W 44mm compressor map at the higher RPMs, this is why EMP rises quickly.
The difference in turbine choke flow between the two turbos gives an ideal PR for the LP turbo to share the load and give both turbos similar operating conditions (IMP/EMP ratios). The HX40W-18cm turbine is quite a bit bigger than the HX30W-6cm turbine so the LP needs a fairly high PR. Would have worked better if the OM605 needed more total PR, leaving more PR or "work" for the HX30W to do so that it would end higher up in the map where there is more choke margin. but as I mentioned earlier, my model for higher RPM volumetric efficiency was off.
With closer turbine sizes ideal PR on LP stage would be smaller meaning one could run fairly low PR on both stages and share the load more equal. The thing then is that Holset compressors are really not the optimal one for low PR. Could be used off course but there is high trim compressors out there with better efficiency at these low PR levels and better transient response due to less mass to spool up.
I have a compound setup ready for my 1.9TDI 4Motion Golf as well (but not the time to build it yet, want to get rid of the GTB2056VL vnt turbo) sized this way with both turbos only operating at a PR of 1.75. The optimal turbos for this application to get the highest combined compressor efficiency over the widest possible RPM range ended up being a Garrett and a MHI turbo. Holset HE200WG would be close as a HP but not as ideal as the Garrett.
To avoid EMP issues at high RPM due to choking HX30 compressor there really is these options for Stamsaas:
- set a lower RPM limit (boring)
- upgrade the HX30W (I will do this free of charge together with a rebuild just for the sake of doing it. No fabrication needed if there is room for the bigger OD turbine housing scroll)
- changing out the HX30W for an out-of-the-box turbo that will do the job (pain in the ass as that requires fabrication)
(06-04-2015, 05:31 PM)Turbo I am a engineer to profession so please get it down in technical terms and we can discuss sizing, perhaps we both will learn something out it so I think it would be of good benefits for both of us and a great deal of fun actually
I am engineer as well
The corrected mass flow from the HX40W is outside of the choke line of the HX30W 44mm compressor map at the higher RPMs, this is why EMP rises quickly.
The difference in turbine choke flow between the two turbos gives an ideal PR for the LP turbo to share the load and give both turbos similar operating conditions (IMP/EMP ratios). The HX40W-18cm turbine is quite a bit bigger than the HX30W-6cm turbine so the LP needs a fairly high PR. Would have worked better if the OM605 needed more total PR, leaving more PR or "work" for the HX30W to do so that it would end higher up in the map where there is more choke margin. but as I mentioned earlier, my model for higher RPM volumetric efficiency was off.
With closer turbine sizes ideal PR on LP stage would be smaller meaning one could run fairly low PR on both stages and share the load more equal. The thing then is that Holset compressors are really not the optimal one for low PR. Could be used off course but there is high trim compressors out there with better efficiency at these low PR levels and better transient response due to less mass to spool up.
I have a compound setup ready for my 1.9TDI 4Motion Golf as well (but not the time to build it yet, want to get rid of the GTB2056VL vnt turbo) sized this way with both turbos only operating at a PR of 1.75. The optimal turbos for this application to get the highest combined compressor efficiency over the widest possible RPM range ended up being a Garrett and a MHI turbo. Holset HE200WG would be close as a HP but not as ideal as the Garrett.
To avoid EMP issues at high RPM due to choking HX30 compressor there really is these options for Stamsaas:
- set a lower RPM limit (boring)
- upgrade the HX30W (I will do this free of charge together with a rebuild just for the sake of doing it. No fabrication needed if there is room for the bigger OD turbine housing scroll)
- changing out the HX30W for an out-of-the-box turbo that will do the job (pain in the ass as that requires fabrication)
Duncansport
06-05-2015, 06:02 AM #305hijacked thread.
Maybe a moderater could move this or start a new thread
(06-05-2015, 06:29 AM)Alcaid(06-05-2015, 06:02 AM)Duncansport hijacked thread.
Maybe a moderater could move this or start a new thread
Hijacked? We are discussing this exact build!
I agree with Peter, and could not have said it better my self!
Nice to see you are an engineer too Petter
Do you not think first we need to stablish first what the HP goal and torque kurv that stamsaas want, how is we other wise to have reference how we proceed in the end?
Then we need to look at specified volumetric efficency for engine over RPM range to get that flow and boost is needed to get that goal? Then we need to look at specified turbo at operation points to decide what turbos in the actual operational area, and loop to see what the turbos in the area will do in the setup and trade of between turbo units? Sometime it is befifital to use a particular turbo if it is in the operational area.
But with out operation points in maps for the turbos it becomes so generalized so further discussion to evaluate end performance in the end is difficult, wrong?
I spended month in calculations to get what I wanted and it ended in only one LP turbo, and that Turbo was not easy find, and two HP turbo, and actual I wanted to make a hybride between those two turbos but it seams very hard to accomplish, and even that has it trade off any way
I have done lot of calculation in borg warners match bot, what program do you use? I have still not figged out how to simulate swalloing parameter for Holset turbos thats is the most reason that I do not use them my self
BR
(06-05-2015, 06:29 AM)Alcaid(06-05-2015, 06:02 AM)Duncansport hijacked thread.
Maybe a moderater could move this or start a new thread
Hijacked? We are discussing this exact build!
I agree with Peter, and could not have said it better my self!
Nice to see you are an engineer too Petter
Do you not think first we need to stablish first what the HP goal and torque kurv that stamsaas want, how is we other wise to have reference how we proceed in the end?
Then we need to look at specified volumetric efficency for engine over RPM range to get that flow and boost is needed to get that goal? Then we need to look at specified turbo at operation points to decide what turbos in the actual operational area, and loop to see what the turbos in the area will do in the setup and trade of between turbo units? Sometime it is befifital to use a particular turbo if it is in the operational area.
But with out operation points in maps for the turbos it becomes so generalized so further discussion to evaluate end performance in the end is difficult, wrong?
I spended month in calculations to get what I wanted and it ended in only one LP turbo, and that Turbo was not easy find, and two HP turbo, and actual I wanted to make a hybride between those two turbos but it seams very hard to accomplish, and even that has it trade off any way
I have done lot of calculation in borg warners match bot, what program do you use? I have still not figged out how to simulate swalloing parameter for Holset turbos thats is the most reason that I do not use them my self
BR
How is that hx30 super over he200wg combo working for you alcaid?
Cheers,
ATG
atypicalguy
06-08-2015, 02:50 PM #308Just to say I am a fan of this thread. There is not enough discussion of compound turbo design on STD.
How is that hx30 super over he200wg combo working for you alcaid?
Cheers,
ATG
(06-08-2015, 02:50 PM)atypicalguy Just to say I am a fan of this thread. There is not enough discussion of compound turbo design on STD.
How is that hx30 super over he200wg combo working for you alcaid?
Cheers,
ATG
Not using a HX30W Super (6cm turbine housing, 78/46mm 7+7 comp wheel). I am using a self built HX30W-12cm with a custom 73/50mm 11-blade extended tip billet compressor wheel over a HE200WG-5cm. Worked REALLY nice, but then the "superduper" headstuds I got from a Finnish guy called AKI-76 lost tension and when torquing them up again one broke down in the block.... Replaced with ARP now but head gasket has failed so I need to find the time to fix it and start it up again. It had daily driver low end response and instant spool and plenty of power up top, but remember this is sized for a 1.6TD, so would not stand a chance on a OM605/606
(06-08-2015, 02:50 PM)atypicalguy Just to say I am a fan of this thread. There is not enough discussion of compound turbo design on STD.
How is that hx30 super over he200wg combo working for you alcaid?
Cheers,
ATG
Not using a HX30W Super (6cm turbine housing, 78/46mm 7+7 comp wheel). I am using a self built HX30W-12cm with a custom 73/50mm 11-blade extended tip billet compressor wheel over a HE200WG-5cm. Worked REALLY nice, but then the "superduper" headstuds I got from a Finnish guy called AKI-76 lost tension and when torquing them up again one broke down in the block.... Replaced with ARP now but head gasket has failed so I need to find the time to fix it and start it up again. It had daily driver low end response and instant spool and plenty of power up top, but remember this is sized for a 1.6TD, so would not stand a chance on a OM605/606
I recall seeing that even ARP studs stretch more than the factory cummins head bolts. All this stud stuff is kind of a load of crap although it preserves the block threads. Unless the stud breaks.
atypicalguy
06-09-2015, 07:02 PM #310Tanks nice work.
I recall seeing that even ARP studs stretch more than the factory cummins head bolts. All this stud stuff is kind of a load of crap although it preserves the block threads. Unless the stud breaks.
but I have 100% thrust in Petter and what he does. Update time!
Last weekend I did some small things, and after that I fired it up and got it to normal temp
Some pics for you guys
![[Image: 20150619_211137_zpsnhjdibqf.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211137_zpsnhjdibqf.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150619_211143_zps2adcp2ll.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211143_zps2adcp2ll.jpg.html)
Put on new locks to the trunk as the oem had to go with with the ducktail
![[Image: 20150619_211152_zpsedm36l1c.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211152_zpsedm36l1c.jpg.html)
New steeringwheel, bigger so the car is better to drive. Have to reweld the throtle a bit
![[Image: 20150619_211202_zpsyw5b3cys.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211202_zpsyw5b3cys.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150619_211211_zpswpizlyqc.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211211_zpswpizlyqc.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150619_211218_zpso7wevmux.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211218_zpso7wevmux.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150619_211240_zps62t35hrl.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211240_zps62t35hrl.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150619_211249_zpsrljbes3v.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150619_211249_zpsrljbes3v.jpg.html)
Also fitted New breathing to the catchtank.
And after the pics, what about a little clip?
I dont mind any discution in the tread as long its about this setup but I have 100% thrust in Petter and what he does.
Update time!
Last weekend I did some small things, and after that I fired it up and got it to normal temp
Some pics for you guys
Put on new locks to the trunk as the oem had to go with with the ducktail
New steeringwheel, bigger so the car is better to drive. Have to reweld the throtle a bit
Also fitted New breathing to the catchtank.
And after the pics, what about a little clip?
Karl
atypicalguy
06-27-2015, 10:06 AM #313Sorry to hijack. I am just trying to understand the concepts behind designing a compound setup. Very big congratulations for what you have done with your car to date. Please continue so we can all learn more from it and enjoy.
Karl
This makes it to be less than 3kg for each 1wHp
Pics ;
![[Image: 20150625_220746_zps5cjkkqg8.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150625_220746_zps5cjkkqg8.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150625_221032_zpslk2neuft.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150625_221032_zpslk2neuft.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150625_221238_zpsfgkrsdbe.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150625_221238_zpsfgkrsdbe.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150625_221442_zpsf232vbmn.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150625_221442_zpsf232vbmn.jpg.html)
Borrowed cornerweights, and the total weight was 1117kg with full fuel cell (60l). I allso forgot to take out a full 20l of diesel that was in the car, and there was some stuff in the trunk, but right under 1100kg in total. The floor was not perfect level so the rear right was a bit higher, so the rear right and front left are heavier because of that, but, the front rear balance is 57,56% front and 42,43% rear. Roughly 170kg lighter ass than front
This makes it to be less than 3kg for each 1wHp
Pics ;
![[Image: 20150823_194736_zpst0mzuxfz.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150823_194736_zpst0mzuxfz.jpg.html)
Here are som pics and videoclips
Ready for driving the next day
![[Image: 20150827_191624_zpswzwfp0dw.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150827_191624_zpswzwfp0dw.jpg.html)
some pics from driving
![[Image: ke70ru2_zpsxejhgnfw.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/ke70ru2_zpsxejhgnfw.jpg.html)
![[Image: ke70ru1_zpsmrviyefj.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/ke70ru1_zpsmrviyefj.jpg.html)
The mic that I had on the rear of the car was a fluffy light gray thing, but it has changed during the weekend.....
![[Image: 20150830_203704_zpsqxlqxizm.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150830_203704_zpsqxlqxizm.jpg.html)
but after burning about 60liters of diesel, it gets a bit darker...
![[Image: 20150831_121040_zpscchevya1.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150831_121040_zpscchevya1.jpg.html)
had over 200kmt at the long straight several times
In the last heat it had trown quite a bit of oil through the breather, not seen on why yet..
![[Image: 20150830_170339_zpshlgbjx4l.jpg]](http://s172.photobucket.com/user/stamsaas/media/Ke70/20150830_170339_zpshlgbjx4l.jpg.html)
And a video from the way home
More pics and videos will come
This weekend have been a blast! The car hold it together all 3 days with alot drivingtime
Here are som pics and videoclips
Ready for driving the next day
some pics from driving
The mic that I had on the rear of the car was a fluffy light gray thing, but it has changed during the weekend.....
but after burning about 60liters of diesel, it gets a bit darker...
had over 200kmt at the long straight several times
In the last heat it had trown quite a bit of oil through the breather, not seen on why yet..
And a video from the way home
More pics and videos will come
atypicalguy
09-08-2015, 06:29 PM #323What was the final turbocharger combination? Did you collect any temperature and pressure data to see which of the two turbos was doing the work across the load and rpm range?
![[Image: 2015_21984_zpsiyedqv7g.jpg]](http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc228/beernutsonline/VACN/Ruskogen%202015/2015_21984_zpsiyedqv7g.jpg)
![[Image: 2015_21994_zpsk26ph0bg.jpg]](http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc228/beernutsonline/VACN/Ruskogen%202015/2015_21994_zpsk26ph0bg.jpg)
![[Image: 21064824898_1df509f85f_k.jpg]](https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5676/21064824898_1df509f85f_k.jpg)
![[Image: 21226457686_3baed9ab47_k.jpg]](https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5634/21226457686_3baed9ab47_k.jpg)
![[Image: 21089693748_bcf0199f8f_k.jpg]](https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5667/21089693748_bcf0199f8f_k.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0884p_zpsubahqtgv.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0884p_zpsubahqtgv.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0886p_zpsxkrpjaca.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0886p_zpsxkrpjaca.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0889p_zpsoc0kjpch.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0889p_zpsoc0kjpch.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0892p_zpsgkjzpj0t.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0892p_zpsgkjzpj0t.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0900p_zpsr9wnxiqj.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0900p_zpsr9wnxiqj.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0902p_zpsmzy3a2xy.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0902p_zpsmzy3a2xy.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0904p_zpspetbhkc1.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0904p_zpspetbhkc1.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0906p_zpswab3rlrc.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0906p_zpswab3rlrc.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0931p_zpsqkeh8ro7.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0931p_zpsqkeh8ro7.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0932p_zpsluhdzbca.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0932p_zpsluhdzbca.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0950p_zpsgbpg6i5l.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0950p_zpsgbpg6i5l.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0988p_zps9v2zo3zz.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0988p_zps9v2zo3zz.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0991p_zpsyhkbgyhd.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0991p_zpsyhkbgyhd.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0994p_zpszgtwktaf.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0994p_zpszgtwktaf.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_0995p_zpspuak9md0.jpg]](http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/stamsaas/Ke70/IMG_0995p_zpspuak9md0.jpg)
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