Nozzle identification
Nozzle identification
08-06-2012, 07:56 PM
#1
The reason is, I am looking for a nozzle that is better suited as is for the injection rate that a 10mm element will produce, and the VE pump uses a 10 or 11mm element.
I saw one number that I recognized; DNOSD265, I believe these are used in 60X engines as well.
Other part numbers advertised as being Bosch are;
(edit
I found a China list and matched up the numbers to DN#s 0 434 250 103 = DNOSD293
0 434 250 063 = DNOSD193
068 130 211B = cant find this number
Is there anyone that can identify the physical differences, pintel dia, etc, for these nozzles?
You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
This post was last modified: 08-06-2012, 11:43 PM by OM616.
I am looking at nozzles for VW rabbits and such that used the VE pump.
The reason is, I am looking for a nozzle that is better suited as is for the injection rate that a 10mm element will produce, and the VE pump uses a 10 or 11mm element.
I saw one number that I recognized; DNOSD265, I believe these are used in 60X engines as well.
Other part numbers advertised as being Bosch are;
(edit I found a China list and matched up the numbers to DN#s
0 434 250 103 = DNOSD293
0 434 250 063 = DNOSD193
068 130 211B = cant find this number
Is there anyone that can identify the physical differences, pintel dia, etc, for these nozzles?
You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
08-07-2012, 04:53 PM
#2
(08-06-2012, 07:56 PM)OM616 You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
the differences of where the nozzles were produced gives more a difference than the number.
Maybe Volker can help with some more details but the last 3 digits of the Bosch type number are not related to any physical characteristics.
Next: what kind of fuel? Pop pressure? PC geometry?
Where are the goals? Smooth run? Max. power?
I personally don't like too hard engine sound and no signs of smoke.
Tom
(08-06-2012, 07:56 PM)OM616 You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
the differences of where the nozzles were produced gives more a difference than the number.
Maybe Volker can help with some more details but the last 3 digits of the Bosch type number are not related to any physical characteristics.
Next: what kind of fuel? Pop pressure? PC geometry?
Where are the goals? Smooth run? Max. power?
I personally don't like too hard engine sound and no signs of smoke.
Tom
08-08-2012, 12:35 PM
#3
(08-07-2012, 04:53 PM)tomnik the differences of where the nozzles were produced gives more a difference than the number.
Maybe Volker can help with some more details but the last 3 digits of the Bosch type number are not related to any physical characteristics.
Next: what kind of fuel? Pop pressure? PC geometry?
Where are the goals? Smooth run? Max. power?
I personally don't like too hard engine sound and no signs of smoke.
Tom
As Tomnik said, there are some questions to answer at first
(08-06-2012, 07:56 PM)OM616 You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
You´ve got to have pretty good eyes to see it. ;-)
The difference resides in the area of 0,00035 - 0,01 inch. The only thing in common is the pressure stage which is always 6,0x2,5mm
The number 068 130 211B you were looking for would be a DN0SD273 nozzle for a VW 1.6 Whirlchamber Turbodiesel from the 1980s
Gruß
Volker
This post was last modified: 08-08-2012, 12:45 PM by Volker407.
(08-07-2012, 04:53 PM)tomnik the differences of where the nozzles were produced gives more a difference than the number.
Maybe Volker can help with some more details but the last 3 digits of the Bosch type number are not related to any physical characteristics.
Next: what kind of fuel? Pop pressure? PC geometry?
Where are the goals? Smooth run? Max. power?
I personally don't like too hard engine sound and no signs of smoke.
Tom
As Tomnik said, there are some questions to answer at first
(08-06-2012, 07:56 PM)OM616 You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
You´ve got to have pretty good eyes to see it. ;-)
The difference resides in the area of 0,00035 - 0,01 inch. The only thing in common is the pressure stage which is always 6,0x2,5mm
The number 068 130 211B you were looking for would be a DN0SD273 nozzle for a VW 1.6 Whirlchamber Turbodiesel from the 1980s
Gruß
Volker
08-08-2012, 12:53 PM
#4
It is very frustrating. So all the nozzles have the same size pressure section that actually causes the pintle to lift, ok that’s a start. Then it comes down to the flow capacity of the orifice.
I am looking for a bigger nozzle that will pass around 90cc/K revs, from a 10mm element, at 135/150 bar pop, with the same pintle lift as stock elements on a stock nozzle.
I know a 265 for example will flow it, but the pintle must be raising up farther to pass the fuel in the quicker time, and the more the pintle raises, the poorer the atomization of the fuel. A larger injector would allow more fuel in less time with the same pintle lift as a stock one.
I guess I will just get some 265s and have them extrude honed and get on with life, lol
On a side note, I received the sample thin element and I like it better than the thick one I used last time. After some measurements, I am looking at changing the helix to a 6 degree angle, that should allow an out put of 90cc/k about 1/2 to 2/3 of plunger rotation, depending on bleed past the plunger.
Any thoughts before I grind?
(08-08-2012, 12:35 PM)Volker407(08-07-2012, 04:53 PM)tomnik the differences of where the nozzles were produced gives more a difference than the number.
Maybe Volker can help with some more details but the last 3 digits of the Bosch type number are not related to any physical characteristics.
Next: what kind of fuel? Pop pressure? PC geometry?
Where are the goals? Smooth run? Max. power?
I personally don't like too hard engine sound and no signs of smoke.
Tom
As Tomnik said, there are some questions to answer at first
(08-06-2012, 07:56 PM)OM616 You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
You´ve got to have pretty good eyes to see it. ;-)
The difference resides in the area of 0,00035 - 0,01 inch. The only thing in common is the pressure stage which is always 6,0x2,5mm
The number 068 130 211B you were looking for would be a DN0SD273 nozzle for a VW 1.6 Whirlchamber Turbodiesel from the 1980s
Gruß
Volker
Thanks for posting! Given the specks I stated above do you have a recommendation for a better nozzle?
Additional Edit.:
I think I just had an epiphany, OK, let me see if I am seeing this correctly now; If the pressure section of all the nozzles are the same, then in theory they will all lift the same under the same pressures. Then it is a matter of the orifice and the pintle section that is in it.
If the pintle section that is in the orifice is strait, then regardless of pintle lift, the area that the fuel passes will remain constant, and trying to pass a greater amount of fuel in a shorter period of time will result in higher back pressure, greater pintle lift, but due to the straight pintle the orifice area will remain constant, which will result in a higher velocity injection, which would increase the quality of the atomization. But if the pintle is tapered, which would increase the distance between the pintle and the orifice as the pintle lift is increased, then a thicker fuel stream will result = bad, that is what I do not want. That is where I want a larger orifice and pintle, so the distance, or gap, that the fuel passes thought will be as tight as possible, creating a high velocity injection. Am I close to reality??
If I went with a 265 for example, will the gap that the fuel passes through increase with pintle lift, or remain constant?
This post was last modified: 08-08-2012, 01:21 PM by OM616.
Edited after reading a response, please re read!!
It is very frustrating. So all the nozzles have the same size pressure section that actually causes the pintle to lift, ok that’s a start. Then it comes down to the flow capacity of the orifice.
I am looking for a bigger nozzle that will pass around 90cc/K revs, from a 10mm element, at 135/150 bar pop, with the same pintle lift as stock elements on a stock nozzle.
I know a 265 for example will flow it, but the pintle must be raising up farther to pass the fuel in the quicker time, and the more the pintle raises, the poorer the atomization of the fuel. A larger injector would allow more fuel in less time with the same pintle lift as a stock one.
I guess I will just get some 265s and have them extrude honed and get on with life, lol
On a side note, I received the sample thin element and I like it better than the thick one I used last time. After some measurements, I am looking at changing the helix to a 6 degree angle, that should allow an out put of 90cc/k about 1/2 to 2/3 of plunger rotation, depending on bleed past the plunger.
Any thoughts before I grind?
(08-08-2012, 12:35 PM)Volker407(08-07-2012, 04:53 PM)tomnik the differences of where the nozzles were produced gives more a difference than the number.
Maybe Volker can help with some more details but the last 3 digits of the Bosch type number are not related to any physical characteristics.
Next: what kind of fuel? Pop pressure? PC geometry?
Where are the goals? Smooth run? Max. power?
I personally don't like too hard engine sound and no signs of smoke.
Tom
As Tomnik said, there are some questions to answer at first
(08-06-2012, 07:56 PM)OM616 You would think that a 293 would be bigger than a 193, but I think those numbers only mean something to Bosch. I just may have to order a few different ones to see what the differences are.
You´ve got to have pretty good eyes to see it. ;-)
The difference resides in the area of 0,00035 - 0,01 inch. The only thing in common is the pressure stage which is always 6,0x2,5mm
The number 068 130 211B you were looking for would be a DN0SD273 nozzle for a VW 1.6 Whirlchamber Turbodiesel from the 1980s
Gruß
Volker
Thanks for posting! Given the specks I stated above do you have a recommendation for a better nozzle?
Additional Edit.:
I think I just had an epiphany, OK, let me see if I am seeing this correctly now; If the pressure section of all the nozzles are the same, then in theory they will all lift the same under the same pressures. Then it is a matter of the orifice and the pintle section that is in it.
If the pintle section that is in the orifice is strait, then regardless of pintle lift, the area that the fuel passes will remain constant, and trying to pass a greater amount of fuel in a shorter period of time will result in higher back pressure, greater pintle lift, but due to the straight pintle the orifice area will remain constant, which will result in a higher velocity injection, which would increase the quality of the atomization. But if the pintle is tapered, which would increase the distance between the pintle and the orifice as the pintle lift is increased, then a thicker fuel stream will result = bad, that is what I do not want. That is where I want a larger orifice and pintle, so the distance, or gap, that the fuel passes thought will be as tight as possible, creating a high velocity injection. Am I close to reality??
If I went with a 265 for example, will the gap that the fuel passes through increase with pintle lift, or remain constant?
08-08-2012, 02:21 PM
#5
(08-08-2012, 12:53 PM)OM616 Thanks for posting! Given the specks I stated above do you have a recommendation for a better nozzle?
Additional Edit.:
I think I just had an epiphany, OK, let me see if I am seeing this correctly now; If the pressure section of all the nozzles are the same, then in theory they will all lift the same under the same pressures. Then it is a matter of the orifice and the pintle section that is in it.
If the pintle section that is in the orifice is strait, then regardless of pintle lift, the area that the fuel passes will remain constant, and trying to pass a greater amount of fuel in a shorter period of time will result in higher back pressure, greater pintle lift, but due to the straight pintle the orifice area will remain constant, which will result in a higher velocity injection, which would increase the quality of the atomization. But if the pintle is tapered, which would increase the distance between the pintle and the orifice as the pintle lift is increased, then a thicker fuel stream will result = bad, that is what I do not want. That is where I want a larger orifice and pintle, so the distance, or gap, that the fuel passes thought will be as tight as possible, creating a high velocity injection. Am I close to reality??
Yeah, that wasn´t bad I would say. But in addition there is influence from diesel adhesion and dynamic pressure wave characteristics.
(08-08-2012, 12:53 PM)OM616 If I went with a 265 for example, will the gap that the fuel passes through increase with pintle lift, or remain constant?gap will increase with pintle lift
Your configuration is a 10mm M-Pump on a OM603?
Gruß
Volker
(08-08-2012, 12:53 PM)OM616 Thanks for posting! Given the specks I stated above do you have a recommendation for a better nozzle?
Additional Edit.:
I think I just had an epiphany, OK, let me see if I am seeing this correctly now; If the pressure section of all the nozzles are the same, then in theory they will all lift the same under the same pressures. Then it is a matter of the orifice and the pintle section that is in it.
If the pintle section that is in the orifice is strait, then regardless of pintle lift, the area that the fuel passes will remain constant, and trying to pass a greater amount of fuel in a shorter period of time will result in higher back pressure, greater pintle lift, but due to the straight pintle the orifice area will remain constant, which will result in a higher velocity injection, which would increase the quality of the atomization. But if the pintle is tapered, which would increase the distance between the pintle and the orifice as the pintle lift is increased, then a thicker fuel stream will result = bad, that is what I do not want. That is where I want a larger orifice and pintle, so the distance, or gap, that the fuel passes thought will be as tight as possible, creating a high velocity injection. Am I close to reality??
Yeah, that wasn´t bad I would say. But in addition there is influence from diesel adhesion and dynamic pressure wave characteristics.
(08-08-2012, 12:53 PM)OM616 If I went with a 265 for example, will the gap that the fuel passes through increase with pintle lift, or remain constant?gap will increase with pintle lift
Your configuration is a 10mm M-Pump on a OM603?
Gruß
Volker
08-08-2012, 04:34 PM
#6
(08-08-2012, 02:21 PM)Volker407(08-08-2012, 12:53 PM)OM616 If I went with a 265 for example, will the gap that the fuel passes through increase with pintle lift, or remain constant?
gap will increase with pintle lift
Your configuration is a 10mm M-Pump on a OM603?
Gruß
Volker
No I have a OM616 Turbo and OM617a.
I am glad to hear that I am getting a better understanding of the nozzles.
Do you agree that there is a window of improvement in regards to nozzles in high rate delivery applications? I don’t care what the original application was, VW, GMC, etc. My thinking is there is some room for improvement, which will lower full power EGTs, reduce smoke, and be quieter. But if one can not get a better nozzle, then that is that. Not worth trying to have one made.
(08-08-2012, 02:21 PM)Volker407(08-08-2012, 12:53 PM)OM616 If I went with a 265 for example, will the gap that the fuel passes through increase with pintle lift, or remain constant?
gap will increase with pintle lift
Your configuration is a 10mm M-Pump on a OM603?
Gruß
Volker
No I have a OM616 Turbo and OM617a.
I am glad to hear that I am getting a better understanding of the nozzles.
Do you agree that there is a window of improvement in regards to nozzles in high rate delivery applications? I don’t care what the original application was, VW, GMC, etc. My thinking is there is some room for improvement, which will lower full power EGTs, reduce smoke, and be quieter. But if one can not get a better nozzle, then that is that. Not worth trying to have one made.
Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)
1 Guest(s)
Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)
1 Guest(s)