STD Tuning Engine 603 rack position sensor

603 rack position sensor

603 rack position sensor

 
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oel_brenner
GT2256V

146
05-11-2009, 09:42 PM #1
I am trying to tap into the rack sensor
on the IP to get a reference signal for "throttle" position

its working, I get the correct resistance values specified in the shop manual
25,25, and 50
and with the connector off I also get the proper ~10V off pins 1-2

What I am trying to understand is why I get no change in any value
when the rack is moved...

any ideas ?

cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
oel_brenner
05-11-2009, 09:42 PM #1

I am trying to tap into the rack sensor
on the IP to get a reference signal for "throttle" position

its working, I get the correct resistance values specified in the shop manual
25,25, and 50
and with the connector off I also get the proper ~10V off pins 1-2

What I am trying to understand is why I get no change in any value
when the rack is moved...

any ideas ?


cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels

ForcedInduction
Banned

3,628
05-12-2009, 05:26 AM #2
You can also use the cruise control actuator, its supposed to have position feedback for its controller.
ForcedInduction
05-12-2009, 05:26 AM #2

You can also use the cruise control actuator, its supposed to have position feedback for its controller.

winmutt
bitbanger

3,468
05-12-2009, 05:39 PM #3
(05-11-2009, 09:42 PM)oel_brenner its working, I get the correct resistance values specified in the shop manual
25,25, and 50
and with the connector off I also get the proper ~10V off pins 1-2

What I am trying to understand is why I get no change in any value
when the rack is moved...

Those two statements seem contrary. How are you getting resistance values and how do you know the rack is being opened?

1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
winmutt
05-12-2009, 05:39 PM #3

(05-11-2009, 09:42 PM)oel_brenner its working, I get the correct resistance values specified in the shop manual
25,25, and 50
and with the connector off I also get the proper ~10V off pins 1-2

What I am trying to understand is why I get no change in any value
when the rack is moved...

Those two statements seem contrary. How are you getting resistance values and how do you know the rack is being opened?


1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42

scottmcphee
Unregistered

 
05-12-2009, 06:50 PM #4
(05-12-2009, 05:39 PM)winmutt
(05-11-2009, 09:42 PM)oel_brenner its working, I get the correct resistance values specified in the shop manual
25,25, and 50
and with the connector off I also get the proper ~10V off pins 1-2

What I am trying to understand is why I get no change in any value
when the rack is moved...

Those two statements seem contrary. How are you getting resistance values and how do you know the rack is being opened?

The rack sensor is current based, and needs an amplifier to make something of it. A coil moves with respect to a magnet, or coil to coil.. anyway, that's a current device in there.

I had the same thought.. the rack sensor is only needed for the EDS idle control. It reads the ring speed and adjusts the rack to achieve a set idle.
scottmcphee
05-12-2009, 06:50 PM #4

(05-12-2009, 05:39 PM)winmutt
(05-11-2009, 09:42 PM)oel_brenner its working, I get the correct resistance values specified in the shop manual
25,25, and 50
and with the connector off I also get the proper ~10V off pins 1-2

What I am trying to understand is why I get no change in any value
when the rack is moved...

Those two statements seem contrary. How are you getting resistance values and how do you know the rack is being opened?

The rack sensor is current based, and needs an amplifier to make something of it. A coil moves with respect to a magnet, or coil to coil.. anyway, that's a current device in there.

I had the same thought.. the rack sensor is only needed for the EDS idle control. It reads the ring speed and adjusts the rack to achieve a set idle.

oel_brenner
GT2256V

146
05-12-2009, 07:00 PM #5
the current is supplied by the EDS computer, on pin #2
but moving the rack via the accelerator pedal
produces no change in voltage or resistance across pins 2 and 1 or pins 2 and 3
or pins 1 or 3 and ground

engine running
or key on engine not running

tested by probing wires with connector installed

the MB manual says test procedure is measure resistance on pump
between pins and get 25 25 and 50 based on combination

and measure ~10v between pins 2 and 1 on the connector

am I just missing something stupid ?
This post was last modified: 05-12-2009, 07:02 PM by oel_brenner.

cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
oel_brenner
05-12-2009, 07:00 PM #5

the current is supplied by the EDS computer, on pin #2
but moving the rack via the accelerator pedal
produces no change in voltage or resistance across pins 2 and 1 or pins 2 and 3
or pins 1 or 3 and ground

engine running
or key on engine not running

tested by probing wires with connector installed

the MB manual says test procedure is measure resistance on pump
between pins and get 25 25 and 50 based on combination

and measure ~10v between pins 2 and 1 on the connector

am I just missing something stupid ?


cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels

ForcedInduction
Banned

3,628
05-12-2009, 10:44 PM #6
Check it with an inline or clamp ammeter.
ForcedInduction
05-12-2009, 10:44 PM #6

Check it with an inline or clamp ammeter.

aaa
GT2256V

913
01-20-2011, 04:51 PM #7
There's an entire chapter on this in the FSM... I was wandering through ps2cho's site and found section "# 07.1-1820 - Testing control rod travel sensor, MY 1986/87 (J) (USA) only ". The instructions seem to imply that the readings change depending on pressure in the ALDA. They have a table with different voltage readings depending on altitude. Readings are taken with the engine under load.
aaa
01-20-2011, 04:51 PM #7

There's an entire chapter on this in the FSM... I was wandering through ps2cho's site and found section "# 07.1-1820 - Testing control rod travel sensor, MY 1986/87 (J) (USA) only ". The instructions seem to imply that the readings change depending on pressure in the ALDA. They have a table with different voltage readings depending on altitude. Readings are taken with the engine under load.

oldbeaver
Turbo

20
10-16-2013, 11:44 AM #8
(05-12-2009, 07:00 PM)oel_brenner the current is supplied by the EDS computer, on pin #2
but moving the rack via the accelerator pedal
produces no change in voltage or resistance across pins 2 and 1 or pins 2 and 3
or pins 1 or 3 and ground

engine running
or key on engine not running

tested by probing wires with connector installed

the MB manual says test procedure is measure resistance on pump
between pins and get 25 25 and 50 based on combination

and measure ~10v between pins 2 and 1 on the connector

am I just missing something stupid ?

Dear Oel_brenner,

I am doing the same test to get some useful signal out of it, with the same result as you, so far.

Let us examine the Fuel Rack Position Sensor:

It has 3 wires that go to the EDS, in my case to pins 3, 4 and 5 of the N39. One wire is yellow, one is blue and one is Brown/black.

The issue here is to measure all three and see id one of them variates following the throttle. If they all do not variate, what info can they feed to the EDS?

I tested only the blue wire with respect to earth. Maybe you did the same? Now I will test the potential between each pair combination and between each of the tree and earth.

What are you trying to do? Lets Exchange our experiences.

Oldbeaver
oldbeaver
10-16-2013, 11:44 AM #8

(05-12-2009, 07:00 PM)oel_brenner the current is supplied by the EDS computer, on pin #2
but moving the rack via the accelerator pedal
produces no change in voltage or resistance across pins 2 and 1 or pins 2 and 3
or pins 1 or 3 and ground

engine running
or key on engine not running

tested by probing wires with connector installed

the MB manual says test procedure is measure resistance on pump
between pins and get 25 25 and 50 based on combination

and measure ~10v between pins 2 and 1 on the connector

am I just missing something stupid ?

Dear Oel_brenner,

I am doing the same test to get some useful signal out of it, with the same result as you, so far.

Let us examine the Fuel Rack Position Sensor:

It has 3 wires that go to the EDS, in my case to pins 3, 4 and 5 of the N39. One wire is yellow, one is blue and one is Brown/black.

The issue here is to measure all three and see id one of them variates following the throttle. If they all do not variate, what info can they feed to the EDS?

I tested only the blue wire with respect to earth. Maybe you did the same? Now I will test the potential between each pair combination and between each of the tree and earth.

What are you trying to do? Lets Exchange our experiences.

Oldbeaver

Tito
Holset

354
10-16-2013, 12:51 PM #9
The sensor works different than normal 0-12v/5v sensors I guess

I have never ever seen one but I think it works with a coil, where a iron is inserted into when the rack travels to full?

This means that the "induction resistance" (don't know the English word) is bigger and it takes more time to "charge" the coil. That would explain the 10v connection (duty-cycle or pwm power input) , for every time the coil charges. The time the coil takes to charge to full is measured by the eds.

I'm hoping I it's clear. My technical English isn't that good but I'll be happy to explain further if it's not the copper-brush type sensor.

Edit: this type of sensor:

[Image: Rack3.jpg]
This post was last modified: 10-16-2013, 12:59 PM by Tito.
Tito
10-16-2013, 12:51 PM #9

The sensor works different than normal 0-12v/5v sensors I guess

I have never ever seen one but I think it works with a coil, where a iron is inserted into when the rack travels to full?

This means that the "induction resistance" (don't know the English word) is bigger and it takes more time to "charge" the coil. That would explain the 10v connection (duty-cycle or pwm power input) , for every time the coil charges. The time the coil takes to charge to full is measured by the eds.

I'm hoping I it's clear. My technical English isn't that good but I'll be happy to explain further if it's not the copper-brush type sensor.

Edit: this type of sensor:

[Image: Rack3.jpg]

raysorenson
Superturbo

1,162
10-16-2013, 01:29 PM #10
Br/Bk should be ground. Feed the voltage into either of the 2 other wires and measure travel with the 3rd.
raysorenson
10-16-2013, 01:29 PM #10

Br/Bk should be ground. Feed the voltage into either of the 2 other wires and measure travel with the 3rd.

oldbeaver
Turbo

20
10-16-2013, 07:47 PM #11
(10-16-2013, 12:51 PM)Tito The sensor works different than normal 0-12v/5v sensors I guess

I have never ever seen one but I think it works with a coil, where a iron is inserted into when the rack travels to full?

This means that the "induction resistance" (don't know the English word) is bigger and it takes more time to "charge" the coil. That would explain the 10v connection (duty-cycle or pwm power input) , for every time the coil charges. The time the coil takes to charge to full is measured by the eds.

I'm hoping I it's clear. My technical English isn't that good but I'll be happy to explain further if it's not the copper-brush type sensor.

Edit: this type of sensor:

[Image: Rack3.jpg]

Thank you much. Yr English is perfect for me. I have some documents and will check what kind it is. What I would like to learn is what kind of signal this device sends to the EDS. This is important for intercepting it.

Oldbeaver

(10-16-2013, 01:29 PM)raysorenson Br/Bk should be ground. Feed the voltage into either of the 2 other wires and measure travel with the 3rd.

Thank you much for yr advice. I will check what happens this way.

Will be posting my findings to the Fórum.

Oldbeaver

PD:
This post was last modified: 10-16-2013, 07:49 PM by oldbeaver.
oldbeaver
10-16-2013, 07:47 PM #11

(10-16-2013, 12:51 PM)Tito The sensor works different than normal 0-12v/5v sensors I guess

I have never ever seen one but I think it works with a coil, where a iron is inserted into when the rack travels to full?

This means that the "induction resistance" (don't know the English word) is bigger and it takes more time to "charge" the coil. That would explain the 10v connection (duty-cycle or pwm power input) , for every time the coil charges. The time the coil takes to charge to full is measured by the eds.

I'm hoping I it's clear. My technical English isn't that good but I'll be happy to explain further if it's not the copper-brush type sensor.

Edit: this type of sensor:

[Image: Rack3.jpg]

Thank you much. Yr English is perfect for me. I have some documents and will check what kind it is. What I would like to learn is what kind of signal this device sends to the EDS. This is important for intercepting it.

Oldbeaver

(10-16-2013, 01:29 PM)raysorenson Br/Bk should be ground. Feed the voltage into either of the 2 other wires and measure travel with the 3rd.

Thank you much for yr advice. I will check what happens this way.

Will be posting my findings to the Fórum.

Oldbeaver

PD:

Tito
Holset

354
10-17-2013, 05:19 AM #12
Do you have a electric diagram and a picture of the sensor? Can't find anything online.
Tito
10-17-2013, 05:19 AM #12

Do you have a electric diagram and a picture of the sensor? Can't find anything online.

oldbeaver
Turbo

20
11-21-2013, 03:20 PM #13
(01-20-2011, 04:51 PM)aaa There's an entire chapter on this in the FSM... I was wandering through ps2cho's site and found section "# 07.1-1820 - Testing control rod travel sensor, MY 1986/87 (J) (USA) only ". The instructions seem to imply that the readings change depending on pressure in the ALDA. They have a table with different voltage readings depending on altitude. Readings are taken with the engine under load.

Dear AAA: Can you please tell what is that "FSM" place where there is an entire chapter on the issue? What does "FSM" states for?

Excuse my ignorance, it is only overcome by my interest.

Thank you,

OldBeaver
This post was last modified: 11-21-2013, 03:21 PM by oldbeaver.
oldbeaver
11-21-2013, 03:20 PM #13

(01-20-2011, 04:51 PM)aaa There's an entire chapter on this in the FSM... I was wandering through ps2cho's site and found section "# 07.1-1820 - Testing control rod travel sensor, MY 1986/87 (J) (USA) only ". The instructions seem to imply that the readings change depending on pressure in the ALDA. They have a table with different voltage readings depending on altitude. Readings are taken with the engine under load.

Dear AAA: Can you please tell what is that "FSM" place where there is an entire chapter on the issue? What does "FSM" states for?

Excuse my ignorance, it is only overcome by my interest.

Thank you,

OldBeaver

larsalan
Superturbo

1,272
11-21-2013, 04:13 PM #14
He means

Factory
Service
Manual

Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
larsalan
11-21-2013, 04:13 PM #14

He means

Factory
Service
Manual


Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'

oldbeaver
Turbo

20
11-21-2013, 04:26 PM #15
(11-21-2013, 04:13 PM)larsalan He means

Factory
Service
Manual

Thank you much.

OldBeaver
oldbeaver
11-21-2013, 04:26 PM #15

(11-21-2013, 04:13 PM)larsalan He means

Factory
Service
Manual

Thank you much.

OldBeaver

barrote
Superturbo

1,627
03-26-2015, 06:25 PM #16
hy ,
so did u get some more info on that ?
to me it does not look like feeding current wont work!!!
i´m very interested in discover how it does work , and what shifts
regards

FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
barrote
03-26-2015, 06:25 PM #16

hy ,
so did u get some more info on that ?
to me it does not look like feeding current wont work!!!
i´m very interested in discover how it does work , and what shifts
regards


FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

oldbeaver
Turbo

20
03-27-2015, 11:40 AM #17
(03-26-2015, 06:25 PM)barrote hy ,
so did u get some more info on that ?
to me it does not look like feeding current wont work!!!
i´m very interested in discover how it does work , and what shifts
regards

Unfortunately not.

I will investigate other way to get an estimation of real time fuel consumption, hope to upload results here.

Oldbeaver.
oldbeaver
03-27-2015, 11:40 AM #17

(03-26-2015, 06:25 PM)barrote hy ,
so did u get some more info on that ?
to me it does not look like feeding current wont work!!!
i´m very interested in discover how it does work , and what shifts
regards

Unfortunately not.

I will investigate other way to get an estimation of real time fuel consumption, hope to upload results here.

Oldbeaver.

barrote
Superturbo

1,627
03-31-2015, 02:39 PM #18
yep Sad my bad.
a friend of mine, he´s avionics tecnician, told me something about two coils, diference in charging time between coils, what i dont understand is why MB made the sensor like that.
MB engeneers use to be more old timmers like, simple and perfect. thats why
anyhow i´ll investigate two , and if i can figuer out something i´ll let u know.
regards

FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
barrote
03-31-2015, 02:39 PM #18

yep Sad my bad.
a friend of mine, he´s avionics tecnician, told me something about two coils, diference in charging time between coils, what i dont understand is why MB made the sensor like that.
MB engeneers use to be more old timmers like, simple and perfect. thats why
anyhow i´ll investigate two , and if i can figuer out something i´ll let u know.
regards


FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

raysorenson
Superturbo

1,162
03-31-2015, 05:07 PM #19
Linear variable differential transformer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_vari...ransformer and this http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=183366.0

Fresh keywords if your search is going stale :-)
raysorenson
03-31-2015, 05:07 PM #19

Linear variable differential transformer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_vari...ransformer and this http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=183366.0

Fresh keywords if your search is going stale :-)

barrote
Superturbo

1,627
04-01-2015, 06:44 AM #20
yes that can be ..... wich wire u feed and wich tension? i tried it against 3/4 volt range and got no feedback diff.
this is what i was wondering about german engeners. a robust device easy to operate.
thanks

FD,
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barrote
04-01-2015, 06:44 AM #20

yes that can be ..... wich wire u feed and wich tension? i tried it against 3/4 volt range and got no feedback diff.
this is what i was wondering about german engeners. a robust device easy to operate.
thanks


FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

raysorenson
Superturbo

1,162
04-01-2015, 07:03 AM #21
I'm wondering if this LVDT uses alternating current or DC. I'll see if I can find time to hook the o-scope up to my 603 this week.
raysorenson
04-01-2015, 07:03 AM #21

I'm wondering if this LVDT uses alternating current or DC. I'll see if I can find time to hook the o-scope up to my 603 this week.

barrote
Superturbo

1,627
04-01-2015, 10:14 AM #22
hy ray,
well if its inductance based must be AC type. but this ussually works with a series fitted oscilator for primary coil, something easy to achieve. and the end result is DC. the secondary coil.
i´m after the rack position sensor on the EDC pump, wich is basically the same as the M´s or mw´s. being the purpose diff.
it would be interesting to know your findings, cause i dont own a scope, nor i have much expertise on it, my exp is the mechanics Smile
hugs

FD,
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barrote
04-01-2015, 10:14 AM #22

hy ray,
well if its inductance based must be AC type. but this ussually works with a series fitted oscilator for primary coil, something easy to achieve. and the end result is DC. the secondary coil.
i´m after the rack position sensor on the EDC pump, wich is basically the same as the M´s or mw´s. being the purpose diff.
it would be interesting to know your findings, cause i dont own a scope, nor i have much expertise on it, my exp is the mechanics Smile
hugs


FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

baldur
Fast

505
04-02-2015, 06:03 AM #23
(03-31-2015, 05:07 PM)raysorenson Linear variable differential transformer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_vari...ransformer  and this http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=183366.0

Fresh keywords if your search is going stale :-)

Yeah except there is almost no signal coupling between the two coils. This is a variable inductance coil, not a transformer.

Also, the inductance of any inductor varies a lot by temperature, so there is a second coil that is on a fixed core and used for reference.
This post was last modified: 04-02-2015, 06:06 AM by baldur.

Baldur Gislason

baldur
04-02-2015, 06:03 AM #23

(03-31-2015, 05:07 PM)raysorenson Linear variable differential transformer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_vari...ransformer  and this http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=183366.0

Fresh keywords if your search is going stale :-)

Yeah except there is almost no signal coupling between the two coils. This is a variable inductance coil, not a transformer.

Also, the inductance of any inductor varies a lot by temperature, so there is a second coil that is on a fixed core and used for reference.


Baldur Gislason

barrote
Superturbo

1,627
04-02-2015, 06:47 AM #24
yep inductance resistance , matters few.
do u happen to know of a easy way of mesure the position ? and variation on the position? that´s what we are after....
regards

FD,
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barrote
04-02-2015, 06:47 AM #24

yep inductance resistance , matters few.
do u happen to know of a easy way of mesure the position ? and variation on the position? that´s what we are after....
regards


FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

raysorenson
Superturbo

1,162
04-02-2015, 10:59 AM #25
Looks like olefejer has already shared a schematic. He used 10khz just like the guy on the arduino board used.

http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/tmp/olefejer_hdk.jpg

video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDwsjy3RuI
raysorenson
04-02-2015, 10:59 AM #25

Looks like olefejer has already shared a schematic. He used 10khz just like the guy on the arduino board used.

http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/tmp/olefejer_hdk.jpg

video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDwsjy3RuI

Petar
7.5mm M pump

459
04-02-2015, 03:01 PM #26
That schematic is very unclear though. What is that IC, which pin goes where ? 
Olefejer is on the forum, hopefully he can shed some light on the subject.
Petar
04-02-2015, 03:01 PM #26

That schematic is very unclear though. What is that IC, which pin goes where ? 
Olefejer is on the forum, hopefully he can shed some light on the subject.

barrote
Superturbo

1,627
04-03-2015, 07:44 AM #27
that is too complicated to my needs.
later on i´ll solve the matter, then i´ll keep u posted

FD,
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barrote
04-03-2015, 07:44 AM #27

that is too complicated to my needs.
later on i´ll solve the matter, then i´ll keep u posted


FD,
Powered by tractor fuel

Petar
7.5mm M pump

459
04-03-2015, 04:39 PM #28
One idea i had was to have two LC oscillators whose inductance would be the signal coil and the reference coil respectively. Then the output would be converted to square wave whose frequency would vary with inductance. Measure that frequency and calculate the inductance from that. Make reference coil based adjusment in the software.
Petar
04-03-2015, 04:39 PM #28

One idea i had was to have two LC oscillators whose inductance would be the signal coil and the reference coil respectively. Then the output would be converted to square wave whose frequency would vary with inductance. Measure that frequency and calculate the inductance from that. Make reference coil based adjusment in the software.

baldur
Fast

505
04-03-2015, 06:17 PM #29
(04-03-2015, 04:39 PM)Petar One idea i had was to have two LC oscillators whose inductance would be the signal coil and the reference coil respectively. Then the output would be converted to square wave whose frequency would vary with inductance. Measure that frequency and calculate the inductance from that. Make reference coil based adjusment in the software.

Yes that'll work.

Baldur Gislason

baldur
04-03-2015, 06:17 PM #29

(04-03-2015, 04:39 PM)Petar One idea i had was to have two LC oscillators whose inductance would be the signal coil and the reference coil respectively. Then the output would be converted to square wave whose frequency would vary with inductance. Measure that frequency and calculate the inductance from that. Make reference coil based adjusment in the software.

Yes that'll work.


Baldur Gislason

 
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