dumb idea? maybe, maybe not..... EFI IDI engine?
dumb idea? maybe, maybe not..... EFI IDI engine?
With todays aftermarket engine management systems, I beleive it would be possible to get the timing resolution needed as well as the injection accuracy to get proper advance and injection timing.
Its just a though. Anyone know what common CDI injectors flow? and yeah, I know why not start with a CDI in the first place... but then they don't like to rev like an OM606, do they? nor are they anywhere as cheap.
I am just thinking outloud here for alternatives to a $3000 myna pump.
just had a passing thought here, would it be possible to run an aftermarket EFI system on an IDI engine? I mean using some CDI piezo electric injectors in place of the stock injectors, a cdi pump and an aftermarket EFI computer to control it all with a MAF and a/f ratio target tables?
With todays aftermarket engine management systems, I beleive it would be possible to get the timing resolution needed as well as the injection accuracy to get proper advance and injection timing.
Its just a though. Anyone know what common CDI injectors flow? and yeah, I know why not start with a CDI in the first place... but then they don't like to rev like an OM606, do they? nor are they anywhere as cheap.
I am just thinking outloud here for alternatives to a $3000 myna pump.
(11-18-2011, 09:41 AM)McAdam I am just thinking outloud here for alternatives to a $3000 myna pump.Where you have heard at Mynä pump cost 3000?
Anyway love to see at you change IDI to DI at less than 3000
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(11-18-2011, 09:41 AM)McAdam I am just thinking outloud here for alternatives to a $3000 myna pump.Where you have heard at Mynä pump cost 3000?
Anyway love to see at you change IDI to DI at less than 3000
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
11-18-2011, 05:40 PM #4I would offer a EFI computer but mine is only speed density and works off engine vacuum and boost
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
11-18-2011, 05:41 PM #5The pressure of the DI injectors would slice through the prechambers. There are 2-3 threads on this subject that all came to the conclusion that its not worth it. And as jeemu said, by the time you bought everything you needed it would be more than 3000. A rough estimate on a myna pump with the exchange rate, shipping and taxes would be 1800-2000, at least from what I've heard. The dollar to euro rate is a killer.
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
11-18-2011, 06:01 PM #6common rail pump's put out 15-20 thousand psi vs the IDI's around 1800 psi
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
Could you use a hydraulic pump to create the 1800 PSI with some form of regulator & then actuate injectors electronicly in the precups that way? DIY EFI or Megasquirt may be options.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/p..._200321051
http://www.pressure-tech.com/Pdfs/LF-690...c%20ds.pdf
Ed
yankneck696
11-18-2011, 07:08 PM #7Dumb question:
Could you use a hydraulic pump to create the 1800 PSI with some form of regulator & then actuate injectors electronicly in the precups that way? DIY EFI or Megasquirt may be options.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/p..._200321051
http://www.pressure-tech.com/Pdfs/LF-690...c%20ds.pdf
Ed
Basically, it would be a common rail system, with a manifold and fast acting solenoids in place of the pump cam.
hrmmmmm, what about ABS actuators? I wonder what the response time and flow capabilities of those are? I would imagine they would be fast enough. Or, what about using gasoling direct injection injectors simply as a valve for the IDI injecors?
I dunno, just thinking out loud here.
thats kind of more where I was headed with that. I am well versed in megasquirt and you can set it up using a mass airflow sensor with target AFMs, or even tps/rpm with no MAP or a blend of all the available inputs. I think a MAF/TPS blend would work awesome.
Basically, it would be a common rail system, with a manifold and fast acting solenoids in place of the pump cam.
hrmmmmm, what about ABS actuators? I wonder what the response time and flow capabilities of those are? I would imagine they would be fast enough. Or, what about using gasoling direct injection injectors simply as a valve for the IDI injecors?
I dunno, just thinking out loud here.
ford 6.0psd injectors look to flow enough fuel for about a shade over 800rwtq with a tuning box! put 6 of the 8 on an om606, and you should be good for 600rwtq, which should net you the equivelant HP in an OM606 because of the ability to rev.
Stock, they have a pulse width range of 400 microseconds to 5.8 milleseconds and a 300 microsecond response time. I would assume that the minimum pulsewidth would include the 300 millesecond response time, thus making the injector open for only 100microseconds, which should be a very minimal amount of fuel. now, these are hydrostatic actuated, which means they have a spool valve that triggers the initial event and they also have an oil pump that pumps out roughly 3000psi, and that gets multiplied in the injector to push the plunger and inject the fuel at roughly a 7:1 ratio, so the fuel it being injected into the chamber at roughly 21000psi.
so, i wonder if you could turn down the oil pressure to more like 300psi and have the injection happen around 2100psi. take the nozzles off and just use them as solenoids to get fuel to the stock injectors on an om606 while running a megasquirt or similar system with a 360 slot crank position sensor for accuracy and an MS2 system has microsecond injector control accuracy, so that shouldn't be a problem.
This is all just theory, and I bet I could build a system that would run a diesel at idle for really cheap, using a high pressure oil pump like the one yankneck posted and some industrial hydro electric solenoids that can be had for under $50, but the problem with those is that they have response times in the milleseconds, not microseconds, so any RPM over like 1000 and everythign goes to crap. Might be a fun proof of concept exercise that could be pulled off for under $500.
Some more musings on the subject.....
ford 6.0psd injectors look to flow enough fuel for about a shade over 800rwtq with a tuning box! put 6 of the 8 on an om606, and you should be good for 600rwtq, which should net you the equivelant HP in an OM606 because of the ability to rev.
Stock, they have a pulse width range of 400 microseconds to 5.8 milleseconds and a 300 microsecond response time. I would assume that the minimum pulsewidth would include the 300 millesecond response time, thus making the injector open for only 100microseconds, which should be a very minimal amount of fuel. now, these are hydrostatic actuated, which means they have a spool valve that triggers the initial event and they also have an oil pump that pumps out roughly 3000psi, and that gets multiplied in the injector to push the plunger and inject the fuel at roughly a 7:1 ratio, so the fuel it being injected into the chamber at roughly 21000psi.
so, i wonder if you could turn down the oil pressure to more like 300psi and have the injection happen around 2100psi. take the nozzles off and just use them as solenoids to get fuel to the stock injectors on an om606 while running a megasquirt or similar system with a 360 slot crank position sensor for accuracy and an MS2 system has microsecond injector control accuracy, so that shouldn't be a problem.
This is all just theory, and I bet I could build a system that would run a diesel at idle for really cheap, using a high pressure oil pump like the one yankneck posted and some industrial hydro electric solenoids that can be had for under $50, but the problem with those is that they have response times in the milleseconds, not microseconds, so any RPM over like 1000 and everythign goes to crap. Might be a fun proof of concept exercise that could be pulled off for under $500.
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
Spaceraver
12-04-2011, 08:48 PM #10Build it, for heavens sake... I'm interested...
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
(12-04-2011, 08:48 PM)Spaceraver Build it, for heavens sake... I'm interested...
I agree this would be awesome to see completed
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
12-04-2011, 11:40 PM #11(12-04-2011, 08:48 PM)Spaceraver Build it, for heavens sake... I'm interested...
I agree this would be awesome to see completed
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
Powerstroke/Navistar injectors are huge and require special heads with oil passages for the HEUI system as well as an injector driver module to boost injection voltage to over 120V.
For the Megasquirt, all you need is RPM/crank position, IAT, TPS and MAP. However, from what I understand about it, injector drivers and timing output are separate and you can't vary the timing of the injection pulse (advance/retard) like you can with the ignition pulse. Conversely, you can't vary the pulse width of the timing signal like you can with the injection pulse.
I would think you would have to build some sort of injector driver/amplifier box that would take the injection and timing signals and combine them to run the diesel injectors.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
A few thoughts:
Powerstroke/Navistar injectors are huge and require special heads with oil passages for the HEUI system as well as an injector driver module to boost injection voltage to over 120V.
For the Megasquirt, all you need is RPM/crank position, IAT, TPS and MAP. However, from what I understand about it, injector drivers and timing output are separate and you can't vary the timing of the injection pulse (advance/retard) like you can with the ignition pulse. Conversely, you can't vary the pulse width of the timing signal like you can with the injection pulse.
I would think you would have to build some sort of injector driver/amplifier box that would take the injection and timing signals and combine them to run the diesel injectors.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
Never played with megasquirt myself, so i'm just tossing ideas to the wind.
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
Spaceraver
12-06-2011, 10:13 AM #13Why not "just" use the ignition pulse and divide that by amount of cylinders in the right sequence?
Never played with megasquirt myself, so i'm just tossing ideas to the wind.
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
(12-06-2011, 10:13 AM)Spaceraver Why not "just" use the ignition pulse and divide that by amount of cylinders in the right sequence?
Never played with megasquirt myself, so i'm just tossing ideas to the wind.
Because the injectors need a variable pulse width to control how much fuel is injected.
Diesel needs two things applied to injection events:
1. Pulse width - length determines fuel output.
2. Pulse timing - exactly when the pulse begins. Also may be multiple events for split-shot or multiple injections per power stroke.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
(12-06-2011, 10:13 AM)Spaceraver Why not "just" use the ignition pulse and divide that by amount of cylinders in the right sequence?
Never played with megasquirt myself, so i'm just tossing ideas to the wind.
Because the injectors need a variable pulse width to control how much fuel is injected.
Diesel needs two things applied to injection events:
1. Pulse width - length determines fuel output.
2. Pulse timing - exactly when the pulse begins. Also may be multiple events for split-shot or multiple injections per power stroke.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
I am still looking for fast acting hydraulic solenoids to use in place of the pumps/plungers/elements. I wouldn't need the heui system per se, I was just looking at the PSD injectors because they have a very fast response time and are readily available. I have found a Vickers sbv2-8-c solenoid actuated poppet valve that will flow about 1l/min, but there is no mention of response time.
Check THIS out! It's a thread on a megasquirt forum about the new megasquirt 3 and how it will run up to 8 injectors fully sequential AND you can set the injection phase angle by opening, middle or end of injection phase at various load points plotted out over an RPM range! I think this would be PERFECT for injector control for a diesel!
I am still looking for fast acting hydraulic solenoids to use in place of the pumps/plungers/elements. I wouldn't need the heui system per se, I was just looking at the PSD injectors because they have a very fast response time and are readily available. I have found a Vickers sbv2-8-c solenoid actuated poppet valve that will flow about 1l/min, but there is no mention of response time.
Sounds like MS is kind of moving in that direction. There are aftermarket diesel ECU's out there but there like $3-4k as I remember.
For injection, I'd run piezo injectors and common rail with the pressure set to whatever is optimum for the engine using the existing IPR.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
The ideal setup would have the ability to have multiple injection events (7) per cylinder per cycle and be able to vary the timing and duration of each of the events.
Sounds like MS is kind of moving in that direction. There are aftermarket diesel ECU's out there but there like $3-4k as I remember.
For injection, I'd run piezo injectors and common rail with the pressure set to whatever is optimum for the engine using the existing IPR.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
would the multiple injection events per cycle be of benefit to an IDI engine? I thought they developed that technology to quiet down the DI engines to the levels of an IDI engine? Also, do you have any leads on where I could get some piezo electric injectors?
this is my basic idea. Just run a hydraulic pump in place of the IP and set it to 200 bar or so. All I need to do is find hydraulic valves that have a fast enough response time, somewhere in the 200 to 400 microsecond range. Anyone got any ideas?
would the multiple injection events per cycle be of benefit to an IDI engine? I thought they developed that technology to quiet down the DI engines to the levels of an IDI engine? Also, do you have any leads on where I could get some piezo electric injectors?
If you look at the OM606 3.0 Litre and compare it to the inline 6 cylinder OM613 CDI 3.2 Litre....the basic engine architecture is very similar....even though the OM613 is stroked a little.
My advice would be;
(1) Use an existing Common Rail pump from Bosch
(2) Machine out your Prechambers and make it direct Injection
(3) Use common rail pipes,injectors etc from an existing engine....CDI...Cummins B series etc
(4) If you can use megasquirt to control the components.....the the world is your lobster!....as far as tuning goes.
(5) You can fine tune your software for multi stage injection,injection timing,fuel delivery etc...
(6) The OM606 is a short stroke engine and will rev happier and higher than a CDI unit
Remember.the higher the injection pressure,the more complete the combustion...the better the power output and the better the efficiency.
I think your project is a runner if you go the Direct Injection route. From what I can see,Common rail can be fitted to any diesel engine and made run. The major hurdle to date in all this is the electronic control of the whole system/process. If megasquirt can accomodate this function,then I think we will see enthusiasts all over the world going down this road with older engines as the power output and economy prospects are endless. Common rail engines are ending up in breakers yards at a much youger age compared to older mechanical pump engines due to the lack of experise in keeping them running and expensive main dealer prices. This gives us a ready made parts depot for our projects.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
12-24-2011, 01:49 AM #18it might be an idea to machine out your pre chambers and make your engine direct injection. The main reason manufacturers avoided direct injection was the harsh diesel knock associated with same. Electronic controls and a high pressure injection system overcame this,and these systems seem to be available to you.
If you look at the OM606 3.0 Litre and compare it to the inline 6 cylinder OM613 CDI 3.2 Litre....the basic engine architecture is very similar....even though the OM613 is stroked a little.
My advice would be;
(1) Use an existing Common Rail pump from Bosch
(2) Machine out your Prechambers and make it direct Injection
(3) Use common rail pipes,injectors etc from an existing engine....CDI...Cummins B series etc
(4) If you can use megasquirt to control the components.....the the world is your lobster!....as far as tuning goes.
(5) You can fine tune your software for multi stage injection,injection timing,fuel delivery etc...
(6) The OM606 is a short stroke engine and will rev happier and higher than a CDI unit
Remember.the higher the injection pressure,the more complete the combustion...the better the power output and the better the efficiency.
I think your project is a runner if you go the Direct Injection route. From what I can see,Common rail can be fitted to any diesel engine and made run. The major hurdle to date in all this is the electronic control of the whole system/process. If megasquirt can accomodate this function,then I think we will see enthusiasts all over the world going down this road with older engines as the power output and economy prospects are endless. Common rail engines are ending up in breakers yards at a much youger age compared to older mechanical pump engines due to the lack of experise in keeping them running and expensive main dealer prices. This gives us a ready made parts depot for our projects.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
(12-23-2011, 02:03 PM)McAdam this is my basic idea. Just run a hydraulic pump in place of the IP and set it to 200 bar or so. All I need to do is find hydraulic valves that have a fast enough response time, somewhere in the 200 to 400 microsecond range. Anyone got any ideas?
would the multiple injection events per cycle be of benefit to an IDI engine? I thought they developed that technology to quiet down the DI engines to the levels of an IDI engine? Also, do you have any leads on where I could get some piezo electric injectors?
You are thinking along the same path I am.
Multiple injection is not needed on an IDI diesel as the pre-chambers perform the smoothing function. Of course, multi-injection allows advantages in emissions and economy.
Piezo injectors are designed to run at 10 times the pressure you are thinking of. They will not flow sufficiently at the much lower pressures for power and good atomization.
RustyLugNut
12-25-2011, 01:31 PM #19(12-23-2011, 02:03 PM)McAdam this is my basic idea. Just run a hydraulic pump in place of the IP and set it to 200 bar or so. All I need to do is find hydraulic valves that have a fast enough response time, somewhere in the 200 to 400 microsecond range. Anyone got any ideas?
would the multiple injection events per cycle be of benefit to an IDI engine? I thought they developed that technology to quiet down the DI engines to the levels of an IDI engine? Also, do you have any leads on where I could get some piezo electric injectors?
You are thinking along the same path I am.
Multiple injection is not needed on an IDI diesel as the pre-chambers perform the smoothing function. Of course, multi-injection allows advantages in emissions and economy.
Piezo injectors are designed to run at 10 times the pressure you are thinking of. They will not flow sufficiently at the much lower pressures for power and good atomization.
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