722.6 swaps.
722.6 swaps.
Thanks
whipplem104
11-08-2011, 12:18 PM #1Hello, I just wanted to say high as a diesel guy and make sure that people know that the 722.6 can be run by a full standalone controller. It is a direct bolt up to the 601-602-603-606 and shared bellhousings. Anyone that would like any info feel free to pm me or ask questions on this thread.
Thanks
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
iheartboost
11-09-2011, 08:56 AM #2Awesome. How much torque does that trans hold? Presumabmly enough for a modified 606 or 603
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
I have a few guys in Europe running this setup behind om606 engines that are making big numbers also and one or two that are doing this right now in the U.S.
whipplem104
11-09-2011, 09:22 AM #3The 722.6 comes in many variations. They can all be pretty easily made to handle very high tq. Many of the Chrysler guys are running around 500-600 whp as the high hp Mercedes. Some of the Chrysler guys are running low 10's and high 9's on modified versions. That is in a 4,000lbs car with a 1.3s 60'.
I have a few guys in Europe running this setup behind om606 engines that are making big numbers also and one or two that are doing this right now in the U.S.
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
iheartboost
11-09-2011, 09:35 AM #4Awesome! Lol
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
whipplem104
11-11-2011, 08:11 PM #6The control unit is from Powertrain Control Solutions. The 722.6 is fully electronic unlike the 722.5 that you are talking about. The 722.5 was just overdrive added to the back of a 722.3. The big problems with that transmission is that is quite a bit longer and will not hold very much power. It was only ever available from Mercedes behind the small engines mostly the m104 engines. The 722.6 in its stock form in a v8 which you just have to switch the bellhousing for a straight six engine version can handle 500+whp. It can easily be built with little work to handle much more. I was actually talking to some guys the other day and no one has ever broken a hard part in one that anyone knows. There are many chrysler/dodge srt8s running 1000whp through these in 4000+ pound cars. There are a quite a few cars doing wheelies off the line. Basically some added clutches and a lot more line pressure and they are good to go. I also know a shop in the Simpelveld Netherlands that has great experience with this.
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
iheartboost
11-11-2011, 08:18 PM #7dam. i will never be over 500. so looks like i can just swap it in and have nothing to worry about. can the controller be mated to a manual sequential shift mechanism? like in blacksmokeracing's drift car?
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
It is the TCM-2000 not the simple shift. The simple shift is only for one of the gm transmissions.
The wiring harnesses is available.
whipplem104
11-12-2011, 10:30 AM #9As far as paddle shifting it is fully setup to use this function. You just need a paddle shifter or buttons or what ever. Black Smokes set up is limited in that it does not control pressures as all. It would be horrible as a driver. It would also brake driveline components shifting that hard all the time. The guy that built their computer has one of the PCS setups and two more on order for street cars and I think that he is going to incorporate it into a drift car also.
It is the TCM-2000 not the simple shift. The simple shift is only for one of the gm transmissions.
The wiring harnesses is available.
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
iheartboost
11-12-2011, 07:44 PM #10Well I dont need anything as extreem as their set up but if I could set it up easily as a bump up/down like modern tip tronics that would be awesome!
1998 E300TD 7.5mm pump and hx35 to come!
00 Mustang gt drift car
We have been able to reduce the shift times reliably so once tuned properly you can run down to .2-.3 seconds on the shift timers for manual shifting and really row through the gears. I have also figured out a way to get better dimension on the tunes for diesels since we do not have manifold vacuum. I add pressure in with an air mass sensor reading. Gives a better deceleration curve on the pressures and works for the turbos also instead of map pressure. I would like an rpm/tps adjustment to create a tq value. Really rock solid.
whipplem104
03-31-2013, 08:50 AM #11Been a while since I posted on hear about this. PCS and I have been busy and the product is basically done. We now have full gear recognition with retargeting of the shifts if not completed. Also it will recalculate the current ratio to figure out where to go to get into the right gear. Winter mode is active and the additional pwms have been fixed.
We have been able to reduce the shift times reliably so once tuned properly you can run down to .2-.3 seconds on the shift timers for manual shifting and really row through the gears. I have also figured out a way to get better dimension on the tunes for diesels since we do not have manifold vacuum. I add pressure in with an air mass sensor reading. Gives a better deceleration curve on the pressures and works for the turbos also instead of map pressure. I would like an rpm/tps adjustment to create a tq value. Really rock solid.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
04-24-2013, 12:59 AM #12nice, do you have a ballpark on the pricepoint?
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
(11-11-2011, 08:11 PM)whipplem104 The control unit is from Powertrain Control Solutions. The 722.6 is fully electronic unlike the 722.5 that you are talking about. The 722.5 was just overdrive added to the back of a 722.3. The big problems with that transmission is that is quite a bit longer and will not hold very much power. It was only ever available from Mercedes behind the small engines mostly the m104 engines. The 722.6 in its stock form in a v8 which you just have to switch the bellhousing for a straight six engine version can handle 500+whp. It can easily be built with little work to handle much more. I was actually talking to some guys the other day and no one has ever broken a hard part in one that anyone knows. There are many chrysler/dodge srt8s running 1000whp through these in 4000+ pound cars. There are a quite a few cars doing wheelies off the line. Basically some added clutches and a lot more line pressure and they are good to go. I also know a shop in the Simpelveld Netherlands that has great experience with this.
Very nice but what 722.6 is used with what internal mods?
And what converters? Are the parts from v 12 or amg 722.6 boxes?
(11-11-2011, 08:11 PM)whipplem104 The control unit is from Powertrain Control Solutions. The 722.6 is fully electronic unlike the 722.5 that you are talking about. The 722.5 was just overdrive added to the back of a 722.3. The big problems with that transmission is that is quite a bit longer and will not hold very much power. It was only ever available from Mercedes behind the small engines mostly the m104 engines. The 722.6 in its stock form in a v8 which you just have to switch the bellhousing for a straight six engine version can handle 500+whp. It can easily be built with little work to handle much more. I was actually talking to some guys the other day and no one has ever broken a hard part in one that anyone knows. There are many chrysler/dodge srt8s running 1000whp through these in 4000+ pound cars. There are a quite a few cars doing wheelies off the line. Basically some added clutches and a lot more line pressure and they are good to go. I also know a shop in the Simpelveld Netherlands that has great experience with this.
Very nice but what 722.6 is used with what internal mods?
And what converters? Are the parts from v 12 or amg 722.6 boxes?
(04-24-2013, 12:59 AM)SurfRodder nice, do you have a ballpark on the pricepoint?
The PCS system is going to be 1195.00 with a bolt on speed sensor kit for the transmission. I will have the large and medium 6 bolt flanges and the 8 bolt flange available soon. The speed sensor kit solves on of the hardest things to get setup in the system and the most critical. Depending on your setup you may want or require some other sensors or connectors.
(04-24-2013, 02:16 AM)johan84(11-11-2011, 08:11 PM)whipplem104 The control unit is from Powertrain Control Solutions. The 722.6 is fully electronic unlike the 722.5 that you are talking about. The 722.5 was just overdrive added to the back of a 722.3. The big problems with that transmission is that is quite a bit longer and will not hold very much power. It was only ever available from Mercedes behind the small engines mostly the m104 engines. The 722.6 in its stock form in a v8 which you just have to switch the bellhousing for a straight six engine version can handle 500+whp. It can easily be built with little work to handle much more. I was actually talking to some guys the other day and no one has ever broken a hard part in one that anyone knows. There are many chrysler/dodge srt8s running 1000whp through these in 4000+ pound cars. There are a quite a few cars doing wheelies off the line. Basically some added clutches and a lot more line pressure and they are good to go. I also know a shop in the Simpelveld Netherlands that has great experience with this.
Very nice but what 722.6 is used with what internal mods?
And what converters? Are the parts from v 12 or amg 722.6 boxes?
Any transmission can be built to handle a lot of power. It is best to start with a v8 transmission. The v12 twin turbo transmissions are a bit longer than the other .6 but not necessary. I always suggest getting the latest lowest mileage transmission to start with. Then go through and tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs. If you can add a few clutches in a couple that is great. But unless you are making a lot of power it is not necessary. I use a standard c230 compressor in my car with 400+whp because that is all that fits in a m104 bellhousing.
It really just all depends on how much power you make and how you use it. It is a lot different to make a ton of power with a high stall converter and drag slicks than the same power and street tires and stock converter stall.
whipplem104
04-24-2013, 08:23 AM #14(04-24-2013, 12:59 AM)SurfRodder nice, do you have a ballpark on the pricepoint?
The PCS system is going to be 1195.00 with a bolt on speed sensor kit for the transmission. I will have the large and medium 6 bolt flanges and the 8 bolt flange available soon. The speed sensor kit solves on of the hardest things to get setup in the system and the most critical. Depending on your setup you may want or require some other sensors or connectors.
(04-24-2013, 02:16 AM)johan84(11-11-2011, 08:11 PM)whipplem104 The control unit is from Powertrain Control Solutions. The 722.6 is fully electronic unlike the 722.5 that you are talking about. The 722.5 was just overdrive added to the back of a 722.3. The big problems with that transmission is that is quite a bit longer and will not hold very much power. It was only ever available from Mercedes behind the small engines mostly the m104 engines. The 722.6 in its stock form in a v8 which you just have to switch the bellhousing for a straight six engine version can handle 500+whp. It can easily be built with little work to handle much more. I was actually talking to some guys the other day and no one has ever broken a hard part in one that anyone knows. There are many chrysler/dodge srt8s running 1000whp through these in 4000+ pound cars. There are a quite a few cars doing wheelies off the line. Basically some added clutches and a lot more line pressure and they are good to go. I also know a shop in the Simpelveld Netherlands that has great experience with this.
Very nice but what 722.6 is used with what internal mods?
And what converters? Are the parts from v 12 or amg 722.6 boxes?
Any transmission can be built to handle a lot of power. It is best to start with a v8 transmission. The v12 twin turbo transmissions are a bit longer than the other .6 but not necessary. I always suggest getting the latest lowest mileage transmission to start with. Then go through and tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs. If you can add a few clutches in a couple that is great. But unless you are making a lot of power it is not necessary. I use a standard c230 compressor in my car with 400+whp because that is all that fits in a m104 bellhousing.
It really just all depends on how much power you make and how you use it. It is a lot different to make a ton of power with a high stall converter and drag slicks than the same power and street tires and stock converter stall.
whipplem104
04-24-2013, 01:24 PM #16What would you like to see? I do not have anything but I could take a video if you want.
I thought the bellhousing from merc 722.6 can not be bolt is it?
How are you changng the bellhousing to different bolt pattern
Do you have pictures of that or is it fixed plate that will be bolt in between the engine and gearbox and a plate for the distance behind the torque converter?
Are al 722.6 transmission internal the same and can you build for example the internals from a v12 in a 300 td housing or chrysler srt internals in merc 722.6 body's
I thought the bellhousing from merc 722.6 can not be bolt is it?
How are you changng the bellhousing to different bolt pattern
Do you have pictures of that or is it fixed plate that will be bolt in between the engine and gearbox and a plate for the distance behind the torque converter?
How do you add line pressure on 722.6?
The "old" 722.5 p.e. had a knob for adjusting, but the 722.6 has not....
Mercedes Benz W210 E-Class 320CDI, lowered 2.5", 18" AMG wheels, Decat, EGR removed, Tumble flaps removed, C30 AMG injectors, 400kpa MAP, Custom GT2566XTV turbo, SW tweaked to 300+hp/750Nm
Hy whipplem!
How do you add line pressure on 722.6?
The "old" 722.5 p.e. had a knob for adjusting, but the 722.6 has not....
Mercedes Benz W210 E-Class 320CDI, lowered 2.5", 18" AMG wheels, Decat, EGR removed, Tumble flaps removed, C30 AMG injectors, 400kpa MAP, Custom GT2566XTV turbo, SW tweaked to 300+hp/750Nm
(04-24-2013, 03:10 PM)johan84 Are al 722.6 transmission internal the same and can you build for example the internals from a v12 in a 300 td housing or chrysler srt internals in merc 722.6 body's
I thought the bellhousing from merc 722.6 can not be bolt is it?
How are you changng the bellhousing to different bolt pattern
Do you have pictures of that or is it fixed plate that will be bolt in between the engine and gearbox and a plate for the distance behind the torque converter?
The bellhousing has a clutch pack and the pump bolted to it but you can swap it from case to case. The v12 tt internals have bigger planetary gears and has a longer back case. It is overkill not needed. The standard v8 gear sets and shafts are plenty strong. The chrysler stuff is the same. Internally but the cases are different. The srt and amg v8 stuff is the same as the standard gears and parts in any large nag v8 transmission. I have a stock v8 transmission from a w211 E500 in my car that has been tightened up and that is about it. I have a m104 bellhousing on it and a stock converter.
(04-24-2013, 04:14 PM)majesty78 Hy whipplem!
How do you add line pressure on 722.6?
The "old" 722.5 p.e. had a knob for adjusting, but the 722.6 has not....
I have complete control over the pressures in the transmission. I do not run a lot of pressure though. If you are making a ton of power some valve body changes may be required. I do not even come close to maxing out the stock valve body though. It is more about tuning the pressures while shifting than the pressure while in gear. I do have an AMG valve body in my higher power car. But this did not really change the total duty cycle I am running by that much. Maybe 10% at the most.
By the way it is just duty cycle on the pressure solenoids. You can download the tuning software from the PCS website and open any transmission file and poke around and get an idea of how it works.
whipplem104
04-24-2013, 04:24 PM #19(04-24-2013, 03:10 PM)johan84 Are al 722.6 transmission internal the same and can you build for example the internals from a v12 in a 300 td housing or chrysler srt internals in merc 722.6 body's
I thought the bellhousing from merc 722.6 can not be bolt is it?
How are you changng the bellhousing to different bolt pattern
Do you have pictures of that or is it fixed plate that will be bolt in between the engine and gearbox and a plate for the distance behind the torque converter?
The bellhousing has a clutch pack and the pump bolted to it but you can swap it from case to case. The v12 tt internals have bigger planetary gears and has a longer back case. It is overkill not needed. The standard v8 gear sets and shafts are plenty strong. The chrysler stuff is the same. Internally but the cases are different. The srt and amg v8 stuff is the same as the standard gears and parts in any large nag v8 transmission. I have a stock v8 transmission from a w211 E500 in my car that has been tightened up and that is about it. I have a m104 bellhousing on it and a stock converter.
(04-24-2013, 04:14 PM)majesty78 Hy whipplem!
How do you add line pressure on 722.6?
The "old" 722.5 p.e. had a knob for adjusting, but the 722.6 has not....
I have complete control over the pressures in the transmission. I do not run a lot of pressure though. If you are making a ton of power some valve body changes may be required. I do not even come close to maxing out the stock valve body though. It is more about tuning the pressures while shifting than the pressure while in gear. I do have an AMG valve body in my higher power car. But this did not really change the total duty cycle I am running by that much. Maybe 10% at the most.
By the way it is just duty cycle on the pressure solenoids. You can download the tuning software from the PCS website and open any transmission file and poke around and get an idea of how it works.
(04-24-2013, 01:24 PM)whipplem104 What would you like to see? I do not have anything but I could take a video if you want.
Of your setup-- how it looks, how it drives. I can't decide--auto or manual. All the info you're sharing is tempting me. And thanks for sharing!
For the 606 turbo--what woiuld be a good setup--an E430 transmission with the 606 bellhousing and what other modifications?
(04-24-2013, 01:24 PM)whipplem104 What would you like to see? I do not have anything but I could take a video if you want.
Of your setup-- how it looks, how it drives. I can't decide--auto or manual. All the info you're sharing is tempting me. And thanks for sharing!
For the 606 turbo--what woiuld be a good setup--an E430 transmission with the 606 bellhousing and what other modifications?
(04-24-2013, 04:24 PM)whipplem104(04-24-2013, 04:14 PM)majesty78 Hy whipplem!
How do you add line pressure on 722.6?
The "old" 722.5 p.e. had a knob for adjusting, but the 722.6 has not....
I have complete control over the pressures in the transmission. I do not run a lot of pressure though. If you are making a ton of power some valve body changes may be required. I do not even come close to maxing out the stock valve body though. It is more about tuning the pressures while shifting than the pressure while in gear. I do have an AMG valve body in my higher power car. But this did not really change the total duty cycle I am running by that much. Maybe 10% at the most.
By the way it is just duty cycle on the pressure solenoids. You can download the tuning software from the PCS website and open any transmission file and poke around and get an idea of how it works.
I see :-)
So when used with stock Siemens TCU EGS52 it is hard to alter line/system pressures right?
(At least I have not found any company who has knowledge or flashing hardware for these)
Does a modified valve body make any difference then? IPT offers such....
BR
Alex
Edit:
From my own feeling while driving, the main problem I have is the TC lockup clutch.
If I floor the pedal I have some kind of "clutch slip" - when engine rpm raise and torque starts to drop of again, I feel bumps in acceleration at about 3.800rpm, like if I would have been driving with half engaged clutch pedal and the releasing it (compared to an manual gearbox)
The transmission itself is rebuild with max. possible number of clutch packs and AMG V8 internals, along with a uprated carbon/kevlar lockup clutch.
Shifts themselves are nice and smooth, only the "bump" is disturbing.....
Mercedes Benz W210 E-Class 320CDI, lowered 2.5", 18" AMG wheels, Decat, EGR removed, Tumble flaps removed, C30 AMG injectors, 400kpa MAP, Custom GT2566XTV turbo, SW tweaked to 300+hp/750Nm
(04-24-2013, 04:24 PM)whipplem104(04-24-2013, 04:14 PM)majesty78 Hy whipplem!
How do you add line pressure on 722.6?
The "old" 722.5 p.e. had a knob for adjusting, but the 722.6 has not....
I have complete control over the pressures in the transmission. I do not run a lot of pressure though. If you are making a ton of power some valve body changes may be required. I do not even come close to maxing out the stock valve body though. It is more about tuning the pressures while shifting than the pressure while in gear. I do have an AMG valve body in my higher power car. But this did not really change the total duty cycle I am running by that much. Maybe 10% at the most.
By the way it is just duty cycle on the pressure solenoids. You can download the tuning software from the PCS website and open any transmission file and poke around and get an idea of how it works.
I see :-)
So when used with stock Siemens TCU EGS52 it is hard to alter line/system pressures right?
(At least I have not found any company who has knowledge or flashing hardware for these)
Does a modified valve body make any difference then? IPT offers such....
BR
Alex
Edit:
From my own feeling while driving, the main problem I have is the TC lockup clutch.
If I floor the pedal I have some kind of "clutch slip" - when engine rpm raise and torque starts to drop of again, I feel bumps in acceleration at about 3.800rpm, like if I would have been driving with half engaged clutch pedal and the releasing it (compared to an manual gearbox)
The transmission itself is rebuild with max. possible number of clutch packs and AMG V8 internals, along with a uprated carbon/kevlar lockup clutch.
Shifts themselves are nice and smooth, only the "bump" is disturbing.....
Mercedes Benz W210 E-Class 320CDI, lowered 2.5", 18" AMG wheels, Decat, EGR removed, Tumble flaps removed, C30 AMG injectors, 400kpa MAP, Custom GT2566XTV turbo, SW tweaked to 300+hp/750Nm
For a stock v8 transmission or AMG v8 transmission which are basically identical other than the valve body you can put down 5-550 whp more if you are not drag racing with slicks. But this is a pretty safe number. The small nag transmissions in stock form are really only good for around 300 whp. The k3 clutch for 4th gear does not have enough clutches as a couple of others.
You can lock up the tq converter at will with the PCS system.
whipplem104
04-25-2013, 10:48 AM #23Ok, to respond to how it drives. Really this depends on how much you tune the system. I can take a video of mine but keep in mind I have spent years with this system on my cars. I have good starter calibrations but it really requires tuning on every car it is installed in. My cars shift at near stock quality and firm quick shifts on the upper load points.
For a stock v8 transmission or AMG v8 transmission which are basically identical other than the valve body you can put down 5-550 whp more if you are not drag racing with slicks. But this is a pretty safe number. The small nag transmissions in stock form are really only good for around 300 whp. The k3 clutch for 4th gear does not have enough clutches as a couple of others.
You can lock up the tq converter at will with the PCS system.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
04-25-2013, 03:20 PM #25http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxdBZBHAmd8
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
whipplem104
04-25-2013, 04:42 PM #26I do not know if that is a PCS unit but Jeemu has a video of his car with the PCS unit in it on their also. There are quite a few over there. I will try and take a decent video of my car running and get it up here. Hard to do while driving.
The 722.6 from Mercedes cl 600 biturbo is in my thinking
I am going to have about 1200NM and +800HP 7500rpm om606.962, I was thinking of your controller and if I need to
reinforce the original gear box to make it, and yes there will be some drag racing with slicks
Can the automatic gear box change gear under full load with full gas all the time, I am not that good on gearboxes?
How do you fit the huge torque converter from V12 to feat OM606, any experience?
(07-07-2013, 10:12 AM)gaiex Is there any way of using a 722.608 W5A330 with other internals to make it strong as a V8 W5A580 but without PCM or any kind of electronics?
Well whipplem104 this is very interesting
The 722.6 from Mercedes cl 600 biturbo is in my thinking
I am going to have about 1200NM and +800HP 7500rpm om606.962, I was thinking of your controller and if I need to
reinforce the original gear box to make it, and yes there will be some drag racing with slicks
Can the automatic gear box change gear under full load with full gas all the time, I am not that good on gearboxes?
How do you fit the huge torque converter from V12 to feat OM606, any experience?
(07-07-2013, 10:12 AM)gaiex Is there any way of using a 722.608 W5A330 with other internals to make it strong as a V8 W5A580 but without PCM or any kind of electronics?
Presssure control and clutches are the main thing. Then some tq reduction during shifts can help. This can be done by reducing boost or cutting fuel or on gas cars timing retard or ignition cut. This is not necessary but can help.
whipplem104
07-09-2013, 11:57 AM #30gaiex, you can not run the 722.6 without electronics. It is a fully electronically controlled transmission. You do not need other computers other than the tcm-2000 from PCS. You can make any transmission stronger or just swap to internals from any other version. The main difference is the amount of clutch packs in each clutch to the power handling abilities. The hard parts are pretty much the same. There is probably a nominal strength increase with the large nag planetary gears and the 900nm trans has larger planetary gears than any others but they are also longer transmissions. It is honestly overkill since the standard 580nm transmissions are handling huge power without issues. There are many 800-1000 lb/ft tq cars that are very heavy not breaking hard parts.
Presssure control and clutches are the main thing. Then some tq reduction during shifts can help. This can be done by reducing boost or cutting fuel or on gas cars timing retard or ignition cut. This is not necessary but can help.
mikes02ls1
08-07-2013, 10:36 AM #31So getting the 722.6 and this pcs controller it will work for a 91 300D?
whipplem104
08-07-2013, 03:36 PM #32It depends on how much you get the 722.6 for and if you go with a stock transmission. The tcu package is 1200.00. This includes the tcu, harness, and speed sensor kit for a 3 bolt 110mm flange. It is another 100.00 for a tps kit to hook up for throttle input. You will need a transmission and a shifter. It is best to get the cooler lines from a similar engine package like the c class with the m111 or m104. Also the shift linkage needs to be cut and shortened and welded. The transmission crossmemeber needs to be drilled for the 722.6 mount.
(08-07-2013, 03:36 PM)whipplem104 It depends on how much you get the 722.6 for and if you go with a stock transmission. The tcu package is 1200.00. This includes the tcu, harness, and speed sensor kit for a 3 bolt 110mm flange. It is another 100.00 for a tps kit to hook up for throttle input. You will need a transmission and a shifter. It is best to get the cooler lines from a similar engine package like the c class with the m111 or m104. Also the shift linkage needs to be cut and shortened and welded. The transmission crossmemeber needs to be drilled for the 722.6 mount.Well looks like a pain might be easier to beef up the 722.4.
mikes02ls1
08-08-2013, 12:59 AM #33(08-07-2013, 03:36 PM)whipplem104 It depends on how much you get the 722.6 for and if you go with a stock transmission. The tcu package is 1200.00. This includes the tcu, harness, and speed sensor kit for a 3 bolt 110mm flange. It is another 100.00 for a tps kit to hook up for throttle input. You will need a transmission and a shifter. It is best to get the cooler lines from a similar engine package like the c class with the m111 or m104. Also the shift linkage needs to be cut and shortened and welded. The transmission crossmemeber needs to be drilled for the 722.6 mount.Well looks like a pain might be easier to beef up the 722.4.
whipplem104
08-08-2013, 07:53 AM #34If you are planning on making any power at all the 722.4 will not survive. I have seen the input shaft break on those with stock power. It is barely up to the task in the cars it was put in. You at least need to have a 722.3. And I did not think about having the .4 so you would also need a different driveshaft I think.
(07-09-2013, 11:57 AM)whipplem104 gaiex, you can not run the 722.6 without electronics. It is a fully electronically controlled transmission. You do not need other computers other than the tcm-2000 from PCS. You can make any transmission stronger or just swap to internals from any other version. The main difference is the amount of clutch packs in each clutch to the power handling abilities. The hard parts are pretty much the same. There is probably a nominal strength increase with the large nag planetary gears and the 900nm trans has larger planetary gears than any others but they are also longer transmissions. It is honestly overkill since the standard 580nm transmissions are handling huge power without issues. There are many 800-1000 lb/ft tq cars that are very heavy not breaking hard parts.
Presssure control and clutches are the main thing. Then some tq reduction during shifts can help. This can be done by reducing boost or cutting fuel or on gas cars timing retard or ignition cut. This is not necessary but can help.
PCM can send some signal during gearchange? Like original TCM?
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
(07-09-2013, 11:57 AM)whipplem104 gaiex, you can not run the 722.6 without electronics. It is a fully electronically controlled transmission. You do not need other computers other than the tcm-2000 from PCS. You can make any transmission stronger or just swap to internals from any other version. The main difference is the amount of clutch packs in each clutch to the power handling abilities. The hard parts are pretty much the same. There is probably a nominal strength increase with the large nag planetary gears and the 900nm trans has larger planetary gears than any others but they are also longer transmissions. It is honestly overkill since the standard 580nm transmissions are handling huge power without issues. There are many 800-1000 lb/ft tq cars that are very heavy not breaking hard parts.
Presssure control and clutches are the main thing. Then some tq reduction during shifts can help. This can be done by reducing boost or cutting fuel or on gas cars timing retard or ignition cut. This is not necessary but can help.
PCM can send some signal during gearchange? Like original TCM?
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
whipplem104
08-08-2013, 03:08 PM #36Yes, The tcu had pwm outputs that can send a signal for gear change. This is useful for shift cut. You could dump boost or cut ignition what ever works for your setup. The pwm can be changed per gear and length of time is adjustable.
Interesting, looking for this in years without finding any god information. Does the wiringharness comes ready assembled? Or some wiringshema? Or some info about the solenoids and wiring in the valvebody. This swap will be Nice to my offroad project.. Know a handfull people wanting this!
whipplem104
08-18-2013, 07:47 AM #38The harness is complete between the tcu and the transmission. There are unterminated looms for hooking to the vehicle and a detailed wiring diagram. Wiring to the vehicle is fairly minimal. Power, ground, tps, map, engine rpm, shifter position. Driveshaft rpm is required and depending on the setup I have speed sensor kits that are bolt on plug in. Otherwise I can also sell a sensor with magnets to be used on a custom application.
whipplem104
08-26-2013, 12:55 PM #40You will want one from a car that has either a m111, m104, om606 engine. This will get you the correct bellhousing. If you are planning on making a fair bit of power then I would also get a transmission from a v8 or larger equipped car to use the internals from. So get the cheapest one with the bellhousing donor. Either can be used but it costs more to build the smaller transmissions up. Do not get anything that is pre 2000 model year as the older transmissions are not as well built.
I have finally nailed down the 3-4 shift. It has been a fight since day one. I was working on some valve body modifications and noticed one of my problems in the flow charts. So in the end a small change in the calibration and a little port work on the valve body and I was able to get a completely stock transmission in a '73 Cuda / Challenger to shift spot on perfect every time.
In the past I had always had problems without going through the transmissions to adjust clearances on the clutch packs and so this is a big improvement in that the transmission has not been touched. This will only be effective up to certain power levels of course. This particular car has a 5.7 gen 3 hemi.
This was the last big hurdle in tuning for me so I really am very satisfied with the product at this point.
whipplem104
01-19-2014, 03:51 PM #41Just a few updates on the PCS 722.6 standalone.
I have finally nailed down the 3-4 shift. It has been a fight since day one. I was working on some valve body modifications and noticed one of my problems in the flow charts. So in the end a small change in the calibration and a little port work on the valve body and I was able to get a completely stock transmission in a '73 Cuda / Challenger to shift spot on perfect every time.
In the past I had always had problems without going through the transmissions to adjust clearances on the clutch packs and so this is a big improvement in that the transmission has not been touched. This will only be effective up to certain power levels of course. This particular car has a 5.7 gen 3 hemi.
This was the last big hurdle in tuning for me so I really am very satisfied with the product at this point.
(01-19-2014, 03:51 PM)whipplem104 Just a few updates on the PCS 722.6 standalone.
I have finally nailed down the 3-4 shift. It has been a fight since day one. I was working on some valve body modifications and noticed one of my problems in the flow charts. So in the end a small change in the calibration and a little port work on the valve body and I was able to get a completely stock transmission in a '73 Cuda / Challenger to shift spot on perfect every time.
In the past I had always had problems without going through the transmissions to adjust clearances on the clutch packs and so this is a big improvement in that the transmission has not been touched. This will only be effective up to certain power levels of course. This particular car has a 5.7 gen 3 hemi.
This was the last big hurdle in tuning for me so I really am very satisfied with the product at this point.
How much you drilled the hole in the valve body?
(01-19-2014, 03:51 PM)whipplem104 Just a few updates on the PCS 722.6 standalone.
I have finally nailed down the 3-4 shift. It has been a fight since day one. I was working on some valve body modifications and noticed one of my problems in the flow charts. So in the end a small change in the calibration and a little port work on the valve body and I was able to get a completely stock transmission in a '73 Cuda / Challenger to shift spot on perfect every time.
In the past I had always had problems without going through the transmissions to adjust clearances on the clutch packs and so this is a big improvement in that the transmission has not been touched. This will only be effective up to certain power levels of course. This particular car has a 5.7 gen 3 hemi.
This was the last big hurdle in tuning for me so I really am very satisfied with the product at this point.
How much you drilled the hole in the valve body?
whipplem104
10-09-2014, 08:29 AM #43I drill the port for the k3 clutch out to 4mm. You can see a picture on my facebook page. Soundgermanautomotive
Are you running the PCS system? I also have some tuning changes that help with being able to control this without kicking back into 3rd.
whipplem104
10-12-2014, 10:05 AM #45Make sure you split the valve body in half to do this so as not to get metal shavings in the V/B.
Are you running the PCS system? I also have some tuning changes that help with being able to control this without kicking back into 3rd.
These are two of my favorites. The Porsche was still being sorted out. But great results.
I know there are quite a few of you std guys out there with the system but I can not really find any videos.
whipplem104
01-27-2015, 09:54 AM #46Thought I would share a couple of videos from customers over the last year.
These are two of my favorites. The Porsche was still being sorted out. But great results.
I know there are quite a few of you std guys out there with the system but I can not really find any videos.
I have been doing a lot of logging of things like this and update as I come up with new things on my facebook page if anyone is interested.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sound-Ger...191?ref=hl
whipplem104
02-06-2015, 03:15 PM #47I wanted to show you guys that are doing .6 swaps what the overlap looks like that causes the 3-4 flare up. This low pressure at which the overlap between the 2 clutch packs that causes the issue. You can only mitigate this up to a certain point. It is also important to understand that it is technically binding up when these two cluches are on at the same time. It is just that the pressures are low enough that both clutch packs are slipping.
I have been doing a lot of logging of things like this and update as I come up with new things on my facebook page if anyone is interested.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sound-Ger...191?ref=hl
(02-06-2015, 03:15 PM)whipplem104 I wanted to show you guys that are doing .6 swaps what the overlap looks like that causes the 3-4 flare up. This low pressure at which the overlap between the 2 clutch packs that causes the issue. You can only mitigate this up to a certain point. It is also important to understand that it is technically binding up when these two cluches are on at the same time. It is just that the pressures are low enough that both clutch packs are slipping.
I have been doing a lot of logging of things like this and update as I come up with new things on my facebook page if anyone is interested.
If the gearbox is brand new, does it have that overlap? I mean is this problem because of bad engineering or just caused by wear? All boxes I have driven have more or less that problem.
(02-06-2015, 03:15 PM)whipplem104 I wanted to show you guys that are doing .6 swaps what the overlap looks like that causes the 3-4 flare up. This low pressure at which the overlap between the 2 clutch packs that causes the issue. You can only mitigate this up to a certain point. It is also important to understand that it is technically binding up when these two cluches are on at the same time. It is just that the pressures are low enough that both clutch packs are slipping.
I have been doing a lot of logging of things like this and update as I come up with new things on my facebook page if anyone is interested.
If the gearbox is brand new, does it have that overlap? I mean is this problem because of bad engineering or just caused by wear? All boxes I have driven have more or less that problem.
Just to be clear this issue can be dealt with up to around 3-400whp maybe 500whp with proper transmission setup and good tuning. Tightening up the k3 clutch pack clearance and proper pressure control during the shift is key.
whipplem104
02-06-2015, 03:59 PM #49It is inherent in the design. It is not bad engineering but rather what is called a clutch to clutch shift. Most modern automatics are clutch to clutch. There are differences in this design though. What the manufacturers do is use torque reduction during the gear change to reduce engine output during the gear change. In gas cars this is easy to do with timing reduction or throttle reduction or both. But with diesels it is harder to do. Fuel cut is very slow. This is why i recommend if you are running a high output td with a standalone 722.6 to use some sort of boost control during the shift. A electronically controlled bypass valve. On vnt turbos you can pretty much do it with the vanes.
Just to be clear this issue can be dealt with up to around 3-400whp maybe 500whp with proper transmission setup and good tuning. Tightening up the k3 clutch pack clearance and proper pressure control during the shift is key.
An example of a synchronized shift is the 1-2 in the old 3 speed Ford FMX trans. It has a ravigneux planetary gearset. The forward clutch is applied in forward gears, the low clutch is applied in first, the intermediate band is applied in 2nd. The low clutch must release when the intermediate band is applied for the 1-2 shift to occur. Later, Ford made another transmission based on the FMX that exploited the ravigneaux planetary gears' capability of 4 forward gears. This was the AOD, which became the AOD-E and later the 4R70W. They got around the typical synchronized 1-2 shift inherent of the ravigneaux planetary by installing an intermediate clutch splined to a huge, beefy intermediate one-way clutch, which is essentially a very nice ratchet. With the intermediate one-way clutch, when the intermediate friction clutch applied for the 1-2 shift the low clutch could take it's sweet time disengaging, it's release timing no longer mattered for the 1-2 shift. This is a "non-synchronized" shift. It cost Ford money to engineer and produce these extra parts, and that's why auto transmissions have synchronized shifts.
The modern ZF 6HP26 6 speed trans found in almost every vehicle worth mentioning for a while is a fully "non-synchronized" trans. I suspect that most shifts in all the latest transmissions are non-synchronized wherever possible. It's a bummer that the synchronized 3-4 shift hadn't been eliminated by the time the .6 came out.
raysorenson
02-06-2015, 05:07 PM #50When an auto trans shift occurs that requires one friction component (clutch or band, but not one way clutch) to release at the same time that another friction component is applied (clutch or band, but not one-way clutch), the shift is called "synchronized". If the friction component that must release for the synchronized shift to occur releases too early, there is a shift flare. If the friction component that must release for the synchronized shift to occur releases too late, the gears (planetary gears) are mechanically locked to the transmission case. This second scenario is often catastrophic, the first is annoying. Applying 2 friction components that result in locking the gearset to the case is how a trans brake works.
An example of a synchronized shift is the 1-2 in the old 3 speed Ford FMX trans. It has a ravigneux planetary gearset. The forward clutch is applied in forward gears, the low clutch is applied in first, the intermediate band is applied in 2nd. The low clutch must release when the intermediate band is applied for the 1-2 shift to occur. Later, Ford made another transmission based on the FMX that exploited the ravigneaux planetary gears' capability of 4 forward gears. This was the AOD, which became the AOD-E and later the 4R70W. They got around the typical synchronized 1-2 shift inherent of the ravigneaux planetary by installing an intermediate clutch splined to a huge, beefy intermediate one-way clutch, which is essentially a very nice ratchet. With the intermediate one-way clutch, when the intermediate friction clutch applied for the 1-2 shift the low clutch could take it's sweet time disengaging, it's release timing no longer mattered for the 1-2 shift. This is a "non-synchronized" shift. It cost Ford money to engineer and produce these extra parts, and that's why auto transmissions have synchronized shifts.
The modern ZF 6HP26 6 speed trans found in almost every vehicle worth mentioning for a while is a fully "non-synchronized" trans. I suspect that most shifts in all the latest transmissions are non-synchronized wherever possible. It's a bummer that the synchronized 3-4 shift hadn't been eliminated by the time the .6 came out.
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