VE Pumps for OM engines
VE Pumps for OM engines
04-26-2011, 03:16 PM
#51
(04-26-2011, 02:51 PM)Alastair E(04-26-2011, 10:04 AM)winmutt Rain on my parade why dont you. I have found 4200 rpm governor springs for the VE pump, this would allow me to get close to PE pump rpms.
Hmm--
Well, I DID try and tell you of the timing issue.
I however, wouldnt worry in the slightest about it. Here's the way I would do it....
Remove your existing chain-driven timing-device, check its all perfect, maybe grind down the stops to increase the Maximum timing-advance that it will provide, research suggests about an additional 5 degrees, at maximum engine speed...
Re-fit it and turn attention to pump.
You'll have to make up a Mongrel pump of your own to suit the engine....
You'll need that bearing carrier/int shaft adaptor from the Sprinter VP Pump (Everywhere here in UK as well as BOSCH, That Fully Electronic Pump from Sprinter is called, VP37!)
--Anyway. The Next Problem is finding a Mechanical VE Body that FITS the Sprinter 'Adaptor'!
--The flange sizes of VE/VP series always tends to be different between Car/Engine-makers--Ask me just HOW I know!!
When you got one that fits or modded one/ground/made adaptor ring etc to fit Sprinter adaptor, you'll need to build up the pump....
I suggest a Governor plate assembly and caged-springs from an early non-elect. Indirect injected VW 'Golf 1600' (Rabbit to you I believe)--At least this will give somewhere near the revs range you'll need....
Then the Hydraulic Head/cam-plate from the Sprinter to start with, and set the 'X' adjustment as required by changing the centre shim on the plunger.
Going with a Cummins head could give issues--Is it a Pre-Stroker type plunger in them,--I have no idea--A previous poster suggests its a low-output at high revs type....
As to Timing--Thats reasonably easy. Dis-Able the timing-device in your Mongrel-Pump, so you'll be using the existing M.B. Timing-device so thats one Less thing thats gonna give you issues....
--The pump then, just Pumps--like the old Inline and timing's done by the 'engine' timing device....
On your search for a suitable Larger than sprinter Hydraulic Head, the size is quoted in part-number like
VE.10F.xx.xxx
Where 10 is the plunger-diameter....
--And the best of luck! This is NOT going to be an easy job to achieve without a Proper Pump Test-Bench, and the various Test-Plans for the various pumps/engines that you've sourced the parts for the Mongrel....
Everywhere I see the sprinter pump is listed as a VE pump on the om602. The VE pumps handle advance internally and it is the same advance as the PE pumps. The low end / lack of high end is controlled by the governor spring. I am not sure where you are getting any of your information or if you read my response to your last post. It is NOT a VP37 pump.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(04-26-2011, 02:51 PM)Alastair E(04-26-2011, 10:04 AM)winmutt Rain on my parade why dont you
Hmm--
Well, I DID try and tell you of the timing issue.
I however, wouldnt worry in the slightest about it. Here's the way I would do it....
Remove your existing chain-driven timing-device, check its all perfect, maybe grind down the stops to increase the Maximum timing-advance that it will provide, research suggests about an additional 5 degrees, at maximum engine speed...
Re-fit it and turn attention to pump.
You'll have to make up a Mongrel pump of your own to suit the engine....
You'll need that bearing carrier/int shaft adaptor from the Sprinter VP Pump (Everywhere here in UK as well as BOSCH, That Fully Electronic Pump from Sprinter is called, VP37!)
--Anyway. The Next Problem is finding a Mechanical VE Body that FITS the Sprinter 'Adaptor'!
--The flange sizes of VE/VP series always tends to be different between Car/Engine-makers--Ask me just HOW I know!!
When you got one that fits or modded one/ground/made adaptor ring etc to fit Sprinter adaptor, you'll need to build up the pump....
I suggest a Governor plate assembly and caged-springs from an early non-elect. Indirect injected VW 'Golf 1600' (Rabbit to you I believe)--At least this will give somewhere near the revs range you'll need....
Then the Hydraulic Head/cam-plate from the Sprinter to start with, and set the 'X' adjustment as required by changing the centre shim on the plunger.
Going with a Cummins head could give issues--Is it a Pre-Stroker type plunger in them,--I have no idea--A previous poster suggests its a low-output at high revs type....
As to Timing--Thats reasonably easy. Dis-Able the timing-device in your Mongrel-Pump, so you'll be using the existing M.B. Timing-device so thats one Less thing thats gonna give you issues....
--The pump then, just Pumps--like the old Inline and timing's done by the 'engine' timing device....
On your search for a suitable Larger than sprinter Hydraulic Head, the size is quoted in part-number like
VE.10F.xx.xxx
Where 10 is the plunger-diameter....
--And the best of luck! This is NOT going to be an easy job to achieve without a Proper Pump Test-Bench, and the various Test-Plans for the various pumps/engines that you've sourced the parts for the Mongrel....
Everywhere I see the sprinter pump is listed as a VE pump on the om602. The VE pumps handle advance internally and it is the same advance as the PE pumps. The low end / lack of high end is controlled by the governor spring. I am not sure where you are getting any of your information or if you read my response to your last post. It is NOT a VP37 pump.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
04-26-2011, 04:28 PM
#52
I just copied this from your earlier post Winmutt.....If I'm guessing correct,this is what makes the VE pump equipped engines feel that bit more livelier that inlines...I think you're following the right road here.....getting it fitted and running is not insurmountable.... a few headaches,but totally do able....but watch out....you might have to tinker a good bit with the timing to get her 'spot on' over the whole rev range....I often 'spill timed' OM 603's where the governor tab had been set incorrectly and found that 24 degrees BTDC was correct for them...I think the correct setting was 15 degrees ATDC(or thereabouts?) using the timing light method....In your case I would play from 24 degrees down to 18~15 degrees BTDC and see how she goes......but I just get the feeling when you do....your OM603 will fly
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
04-26-2011, 04:28 PM #52"The shorter injection times makes sense as the plunger does not have to move linearly as far as with the inline pumps."
I just copied this from your earlier post Winmutt.....If I'm guessing correct,this is what makes the VE pump equipped engines feel that bit more livelier that inlines...I think you're following the right road here.....getting it fitted and running is not insurmountable.... a few headaches,but totally do able....but watch out....you might have to tinker a good bit with the timing to get her 'spot on' over the whole rev range....I often 'spill timed' OM 603's where the governor tab had been set incorrectly and found that 24 degrees BTDC was correct for them...I think the correct setting was 15 degrees ATDC(or thereabouts?) using the timing light method....In your case I would play from 24 degrees down to 18~15 degrees BTDC and see how she goes......but I just get the feeling when you do....your OM603 will fly
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
04-27-2011, 05:11 AM
#53
I Have NO idea why MB are referring to the Sprinter pump as a VE...
Here's a pic of the same type of pump used on VW--Compare the pics to those above...
http://wiki.obed.org.uk/index.php?title=...ction_pump
Most Other makers call it 'VP37' --and so do BOSCH who make it!
Here's a member here showing a VP37 --On a Test-Bench-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjTSYAmy1hA
And here dismantling a VP37 for a MERCEDES engine..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFDrK7UUjjs&NR=1
Go Figure....
Anyway--Arguing as to what the damned thing's called by various makers/suppliers aint getting anywhere....
--Fact is, that Sprinter pump is not a mechanical pump and the only common parts to VE is the Transfer-Pump and the Hydraulic Head--There is no facility inside the sprinter pump case to put a Mechanical governor--Its completely different pump that just happens to share some components--Even the Timing-Device in that pump is different to VE as its all electronically controlled by 'chatter-valve'....
I have worked on these pumps as well as the EP-VE and others, I feel I DO know what I'm talking about......
best advice I can give is get hold of that guy from Hungary and find what he did, as you seem fixated on what to call the thing, and I cant be bothered discussing that aspect anymore....
This post was last modified: 04-27-2011, 05:46 AM by Alastair E.
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
04-27-2011, 05:11 AM #53Winmutt-
I Have NO idea why MB are referring to the Sprinter pump as a VE...
Here's a pic of the same type of pump used on VW--Compare the pics to those above...
http://wiki.obed.org.uk/index.php?title=...ction_pump
Most Other makers call it 'VP37' --and so do BOSCH who make it!
Here's a member here showing a VP37 --On a Test-Bench-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjTSYAmy1hA
And here dismantling a VP37 for a MERCEDES engine..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFDrK7UUjjs&NR=1
Go Figure....
Anyway--Arguing as to what the damned thing's called by various makers/suppliers aint getting anywhere....
--Fact is, that Sprinter pump is not a mechanical pump and the only common parts to VE is the Transfer-Pump and the Hydraulic Head--There is no facility inside the sprinter pump case to put a Mechanical governor--Its completely different pump that just happens to share some components--Even the Timing-Device in that pump is different to VE as its all electronically controlled by 'chatter-valve'....
I have worked on these pumps as well as the EP-VE and others, I feel I DO know what I'm talking about......
best advice I can give is get hold of that guy from Hungary and find what he did, as you seem fixated on what to call the thing, and I cant be bothered discussing that aspect anymore....
04-27-2011, 07:46 AM
#54
(04-27-2011, 05:11 AM)Alastair E Winmutt-Its not just MB it is Bosch as well. Compare the flanges.
I Have NO idea why MB are referring to the Sprinter pump as a VE...
Quote:--Fact is, that Sprinter pump is not a mechanical pump and the only common parts to VE is the Transfer-Pump and the Hydraulic Head--There is no facility inside the sprinter pump case to put a Mechanical governor--Its completely different pump that just happens to share some components--Even the Timing-Device in that pump is different to VE as its all electronically controlled by 'chatter-valve'....There is no need to put a mechanical governor in a sprinter pump. The only thing needed to mount the Cummins VE pump on a 603 is the interface that mounts on the drive shaft of the VE pump. As Tomnik pointed out this is a direct drive.
Ultimately I feel that the RPM limit is what makes this a nogo. 4200 max before fuel cutoff starts is just not up to par with the PE pumps. If anyone with access to the parts and wants a cummins pump, I will be happy to arrange it. They run about $300 used.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(04-27-2011, 05:11 AM)Alastair E Winmutt-Its not just MB it is Bosch as well. Compare the flanges.
I Have NO idea why MB are referring to the Sprinter pump as a VE...
Quote:--Fact is, that Sprinter pump is not a mechanical pump and the only common parts to VE is the Transfer-Pump and the Hydraulic Head--There is no facility inside the sprinter pump case to put a Mechanical governor--Its completely different pump that just happens to share some components--Even the Timing-Device in that pump is different to VE as its all electronically controlled by 'chatter-valve'....There is no need to put a mechanical governor in a sprinter pump. The only thing needed to mount the Cummins VE pump on a 603 is the interface that mounts on the drive shaft of the VE pump. As Tomnik pointed out this is a direct drive.
Ultimately I feel that the RPM limit is what makes this a nogo. 4200 max before fuel cutoff starts is just not up to par with the PE pumps. If anyone with access to the parts and wants a cummins pump, I will be happy to arrange it. They run about $300 used.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
04-27-2011, 07:56 AM
#55
(04-27-2011, 07:46 AM)winmutt Ultimately I feel that the RPM limit is what makes this a nogo. 4200 max before fuel cutoff starts is just not up to par with the PE pumps. If anyone with access to the parts and wants a cummins pump, I will be happy to arrange it. They run about $300 used.
There's 2 ways to change gov response, spring-rate adjustment, or flyweight adjustment.
If you find the spring-rate differences between the different springs for different RPM limits, you can get some custom rate springs made, or find some of the proper rate.
If not, you can modify the flyweights by removing material, so they do not exert as much force on the springs.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
(04-27-2011, 07:46 AM)winmutt Ultimately I feel that the RPM limit is what makes this a nogo. 4200 max before fuel cutoff starts is just not up to par with the PE pumps. If anyone with access to the parts and wants a cummins pump, I will be happy to arrange it. They run about $300 used.
There's 2 ways to change gov response, spring-rate adjustment, or flyweight adjustment.
If you find the spring-rate differences between the different springs for different RPM limits, you can get some custom rate springs made, or find some of the proper rate.
If not, you can modify the flyweights by removing material, so they do not exert as much force on the springs.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
04-27-2011, 09:42 AM
#56
Hmm....
As I said before.....
Grab the main Governor Caged-Spring from a VW Golf 1600, as I recall, they are like 4800, foldback at 4300....
Simple!
If That aint any good for ya, I'll send you one from a XUD-9 EP-VE which has a 5100 RPM and foldback at 4600....
( I know from experience the EP-VE on the XUD-9 will run up to 6000 if the throttle-stop is altered enough--But at Those speeds XUD dont last long!)
Really, You're worrying about the least hard part of the modification. Governor springs are the EASY bit!
--There's Loads of 'scope' for adjustment on the governor/throttle-stop of EP-VE, guess your 4K spring would give you 5K if set up right....
This post was last modified: 04-27-2011, 09:52 AM by Alastair E.
Alastair E
04-27-2011, 09:42 AM #56"....Its not just MB it is Bosch as well. Compare the flanges......"
Hmm....
As I said before.....
Grab the main Governor Caged-Spring from a VW Golf 1600, as I recall, they are like 4800, foldback at 4300....
Simple!
If That aint any good for ya, I'll send you one from a XUD-9 EP-VE which has a 5100 RPM and foldback at 4600....
( I know from experience the EP-VE on the XUD-9 will run up to 6000 if the throttle-stop is altered enough--But at Those speeds XUD dont last long!)
Really, You're worrying about the least hard part of the modification. Governor springs are the EASY bit!
--There's Loads of 'scope' for adjustment on the governor/throttle-stop of EP-VE, guess your 4K spring would give you 5K if set up right....
04-27-2011, 01:14 PM
#57
This post was last modified: 04-27-2011, 01:14 PM by willbhere4u.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
04-27-2011, 01:14 PM #57I've seen the Cummins trucks run up to 5k in the tractor pulling seen!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
05-03-2011, 07:56 AM
#58
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I can't find anyone willing to sell me the parts I need without the whole pump and often the pump doesnt include all the parts. If anyone else is interested in this project I would be more than happy to arrange purchase/shipping for the cummins pump.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
05-04-2011, 08:25 AM
#59
(05-03-2011, 07:56 AM)winmutt I can't find anyone willing to sell me the parts I need without the whole pump and often the pump doesnt include all the parts. If anyone else is interested in this project I would be more than happy to arrange purchase/shipping for the cummins pump.
Hi Winmutt,-
If I can help with any Governor springs or other parts, let me know...
Not sure what you're missing from your 'kit-o-parts' you need....
Let us know anyway....
I may be able to source that 'adaptor' section between pump and block--A friend has garage specialising in M.B light Commercial vehicles--Loads of Sprinters always there....
This post was last modified: 05-04-2011, 08:27 AM by Alastair E.
Alastair E
05-04-2011, 08:25 AM #59(05-03-2011, 07:56 AM)winmutt I can't find anyone willing to sell me the parts I need without the whole pump and often the pump doesnt include all the parts. If anyone else is interested in this project I would be more than happy to arrange purchase/shipping for the cummins pump.
Hi Winmutt,-
If I can help with any Governor springs or other parts, let me know...
Not sure what you're missing from your 'kit-o-parts' you need....
Let us know anyway....
I may be able to source that 'adaptor' section between pump and block--A friend has garage specialising in M.B light Commercial vehicles--Loads of Sprinters always there....
05-04-2011, 11:11 AM
#60
(05-04-2011, 08:25 AM)Alastair E I may be able to source that 'adaptor' section between pump and block--A friend has garage specialising in M.B light Commercial vehicles--Loads of Sprinters always there....
Yes if hes got a dead pump that would be ideal.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(05-04-2011, 08:25 AM)Alastair E I may be able to source that 'adaptor' section between pump and block--A friend has garage specialising in M.B light Commercial vehicles--Loads of Sprinters always there....
Yes if hes got a dead pump that would be ideal.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
05-04-2011, 03:09 PM
#61
--Or just the adaptor....?
Thinking of shipping and weight....I'll go see him tomorrow--need to pick up an oil-drum from him to make another BioDiesel processor, so I'll see what he's got around...
Alastair E
05-04-2011, 03:09 PM #61You need the whole pump with adaptor?
--Or just the adaptor....?
Thinking of shipping and weight....I'll go see him tomorrow--need to pick up an oil-drum from him to make another BioDiesel processor, so I'll see what he's got around...
05-05-2011, 05:07 AM
#63
I'll see what I can do....
Alastair E
05-05-2011, 05:07 AM #63OK,--Everything Forward of the pump-shaft Woodruff key.....(The 'whole' pump adaptor and pump shaft spline-collar and spacer ring...)
I'll see what I can do....
01-03-2015, 02:53 PM
#64
lost in the diesel universe.............
why bother to put a ve pump on a 603, when u have already a 2.9L engine factory equipped with that pump? you throw bigger injector nozzles, 12mm plunger in the pump, camplate, a good vnt,IC and good tunning, engine should be able of 400 hp, 700+nm on a wide range of rpms......... just my 2 cents, haven't seen anyone tune this engine before though, it would be interesting!!!
lost in the diesel universe.............
01-04-2015, 03:05 PM
#66
(01-04-2015, 11:07 AM)Petar Because VE pumps can deliver quite a bit more than our M pumps with 5.5mm elements. Also easier to adjust. Easy to build yourself, requires no calibration. Also significantly cheaper.
Hy there.
I want to reassemble a 605.960 block and change it to DI. is there any VE type pump dual stage press, mechanical controled. that i can use in my 605 project?
usually an existent version in MB would be very interesting.
or better is there any bosch VE related cathalog with interchangeble parts?
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(01-04-2015, 11:07 AM)Petar Because VE pumps can deliver quite a bit more than our M pumps with 5.5mm elements. Also easier to adjust. Easy to build yourself, requires no calibration. Also significantly cheaper.
Hy there.
I want to reassemble a 605.960 block and change it to DI. is there any VE type pump dual stage press, mechanical controled. that i can use in my 605 project?
usually an existent version in MB would be very interesting.
or better is there any bosch VE related cathalog with interchangeble parts?
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
01-04-2015, 03:07 PM
#67
(01-04-2015, 11:07 AM)Petar Because VE pumps can deliver quite a bit more than our M pumps with 5.5mm elements. Also easier to adjust. Easy to build yourself, requires no calibration. Also significantly cheaper.Yes, and the 602 from sprinter/w210 have it. It's really a pitty nobody tried to max out this engine, I'm pretty sure it would hold 400+ hp and a lot more torque. Didn't find injector nozzle upgrade on internet though............ everybody makes them only for VAG, and spraying pattern sure is different.........as the piston is different, too bad
lost in the diesel universe.............
(01-04-2015, 11:07 AM)Petar Because VE pumps can deliver quite a bit more than our M pumps with 5.5mm elements. Also easier to adjust. Easy to build yourself, requires no calibration. Also significantly cheaper.Yes, and the 602 from sprinter/w210 have it. It's really a pitty nobody tried to max out this engine, I'm pretty sure it would hold 400+ hp and a lot more torque. Didn't find injector nozzle upgrade on internet though............ everybody makes them only for VAG, and spraying pattern sure is different.........as the piston is different, too bad
lost in the diesel universe.............
01-05-2015, 04:01 PM
#68
I researched a bit into changing the bug to mechanical, and it seems the way to go is to switch the gov. from a 1.6 or 1.9 idi vw to a 4bt cummins pump(thats the 4 cyl. versions of the dodge engine btw) and use the main shaft out of the tdi pump. that is the shaft that connects the the timing chain. of course the shaft wouldnt work for you but i dont see why you couldnt just swap that from the de29la pump to the cummins pump. though im sure this is a lot of work just to switch that.
the 4bt pump has 12mm heads and a 11mm plunger if i am not mistaken, same as the 6bt i think. i dont see why this couldnt work on a 60x as it work's on the vw engines.
I believe this could be a good midrange pump for a slightly lower price(maybe) then a myna or dieselmeken pump, but im willing to bet that thier pumps will give you more power, not to mention rpms.
I've been curious about the ve since i saw someones post about it on a om616. my gf bug has a electronic ve pump on it. it'll hold 5k all day if you want it to, and my friends 80's 1.6 will too. though his is mechanical. of course 5k isn't near the 6+ ive seen some of these merc's turn.
I researched a bit into changing the bug to mechanical, and it seems the way to go is to switch the gov. from a 1.6 or 1.9 idi vw to a 4bt cummins pump(thats the 4 cyl. versions of the dodge engine btw) and use the main shaft out of the tdi pump. that is the shaft that connects the the timing chain. of course the shaft wouldnt work for you but i dont see why you couldnt just swap that from the de29la pump to the cummins pump. though im sure this is a lot of work just to switch that.
the 4bt pump has 12mm heads and a 11mm plunger if i am not mistaken, same as the 6bt i think. i dont see why this couldnt work on a 60x as it work's on the vw engines.
I believe this could be a good midrange pump for a slightly lower price(maybe) then a myna or dieselmeken pump, but im willing to bet that thier pumps will give you more power, not to mention rpms.
01-05-2015, 04:13 PM
#69
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
I dont see a way trough here.. When you max out 11mm plunger you are done for, and that comes pretty soon. 10mm stock pulled out barely 220HP with hot EGTs on BMW M51 which is really close to OM603. Not gonna make much more difference on OM606.. Maybe 270-300HP with some smoke from prolonged injection duration with 11mm head. As Dieselmeken said, 12+mm head is no good, even if you would use that fuel from down low with VNT turbo OM606 wont take that torque and throws rod.
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
01-05-2015, 04:31 PM
#70
(01-05-2015, 04:13 PM)starynovy I dont see a way trough here.. When you max out 11mm plunger you are done for, and that comes pretty soon. 10mm stock pulled out barely 220HP with hot EGTs on BMW M51 which is really close to OM603. Not gonna make much more difference on OM606.. Maybe 270-300HP with some smoke from prolonged injection duration with 11mm head.......
That is still much better than 5.5mm M pump....
(01-05-2015, 04:13 PM)starynovy I dont see a way trough here.. When you max out 11mm plunger you are done for, and that comes pretty soon. 10mm stock pulled out barely 220HP with hot EGTs on BMW M51 which is really close to OM603. Not gonna make much more difference on OM606.. Maybe 270-300HP with some smoke from prolonged injection duration with 11mm head.......
That is still much better than 5.5mm M pump....
01-05-2015, 05:49 PM
#71
(01-05-2015, 04:13 PM)starynovy I dont see a way trough here.. When you max out 11mm plunger you are done for, and that comes pretty soon. 10mm stock pulled out barely 220HP with hot EGTs on BMW M51 which is really close to OM603. Not gonna make much more difference on OM606.. Maybe 270-300HP with some smoke from prolonged injection duration with 11mm head. As Dieselmeken said, 12+mm head is no good, even if you would use that fuel from down low with VNT turbo OM606 wont take that torque and throws rod.There's a guy with a G-wagen @here , compound turbo om606, he dynoed 1028nm@2800 rpm, and rods were still in their place. The tdi guys, throw some nozzles,turbo and software and they have 280hp and 600 nm on their 2.5 R5 tdi's.......... I believe 290TD om602 have some potential too, it's just that is way easier to build sth like everybody else than to try sth new, and risk to break it as u don't know it's limits, but it would be fun!!!
lost in the diesel universe.............
(01-05-2015, 04:13 PM)starynovy I dont see a way trough here.. When you max out 11mm plunger you are done for, and that comes pretty soon. 10mm stock pulled out barely 220HP with hot EGTs on BMW M51 which is really close to OM603. Not gonna make much more difference on OM606.. Maybe 270-300HP with some smoke from prolonged injection duration with 11mm head. As Dieselmeken said, 12+mm head is no good, even if you would use that fuel from down low with VNT turbo OM606 wont take that torque and throws rod.There's a guy with a G-wagen @here , compound turbo om606, he dynoed 1028nm@2800 rpm, and rods were still in their place. The tdi guys, throw some nozzles,turbo and software and they have 280hp and 600 nm on their 2.5 R5 tdi's.......... I believe 290TD om602 have some potential too, it's just that is way easier to build sth like everybody else than to try sth new, and risk to break it as u don't know it's limits, but it would be fun!!!
lost in the diesel universe.............
01-06-2015, 12:05 PM
#72
Just to be clear, if you manage to put that pump on engine with cost of parts and effort not reaching cost of pump rebuild and calibrated by specialist then its good thing. Also there are means to control VE pump with older style of QA by standalone EMS. I am currently working on this to have it accept mercedes pump with its inductive sensor and then screw myna, screw VE..
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
TDIs are build like tractors.. at least old ones were (definitely case of 2.5TDI R5, immortal thing) and they accept bottom end torque happily. I seriously doubt that 1000Nm OM606 was stock inside, if I were in for torque beast then definitely DI OM602 is way to go.
Just to be clear, if you manage to put that pump on engine with cost of parts and effort not reaching cost of pump rebuild and calibrated by specialist then its good thing. Also there are means to control VE pump with older style of QA by standalone EMS. I am currently working on this to have it accept mercedes pump with its inductive sensor and then screw myna, screw VE..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
01-19-2015, 02:55 PM
#73
http://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/p-944...valve.aspx
I'm not adventurous enough to go grab a P pump off one of my cummins.
Why specifically the VE pump. why not the cummins P7100. for which 5k governor springs are available?
http://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/p-944...valve.aspx
I'm not adventurous enough to go grab a P pump off one of my cummins.
01-19-2015, 04:19 PM
#74
The p-pump is highly desired. meaning it'll be expensive. it is quite capable and can probably make more power then a M-pump will, though id think you'd need more then 5k for that. plus no OM60x engine used a p-pump stock, and if in not mistaken the 2.9 DI OM605 used a VE, meaning there's a way to use factory parts to attach a ve, while the p-pump will be custom.
I'm not discouraging you hear just pointing out the reasons why there's a discussion about the VE pump. I would love to see what a p-pumped 606 can do and by all means do it. but if the big tuners are worried about the VE making to much torque for the factory bottom end I would think the p-pump will too.
i thought the point was to try to cut costs down a little. VE's are cheap and while you might make 250-275 tops, still much better then stock and hopefully will be cheaper then having the m-pump rebuilt bigger and better.
The p-pump is highly desired. meaning it'll be expensive. it is quite capable and can probably make more power then a M-pump will, though id think you'd need more then 5k for that. plus no OM60x engine used a p-pump stock, and if in not mistaken the 2.9 DI OM605 used a VE, meaning there's a way to use factory parts to attach a ve, while the p-pump will be custom.
I'm not discouraging you hear just pointing out the reasons why there's a discussion about the VE pump. I would love to see what a p-pumped 606 can do and by all means do it. but if the big tuners are worried about the VE making to much torque for the factory bottom end I would think the p-pump will too.
01-19-2015, 04:39 PM
#75
(01-19-2015, 04:19 PM)Edian727 ...
I'm not discouraging you hear just pointing out the reasons why there's a discussion about the VE pump. I would love to see what a p-pumped 606 can do and by all means do it. but if the big tuners are worried about the VE making to much torque for the factory bottom end I would think the p-pump will too.
Perhaps when I'm older and smarter and more motivated I will.
(01-19-2015, 04:19 PM)Edian727 ...
I'm not discouraging you hear just pointing out the reasons why there's a discussion about the VE pump. I would love to see what a p-pumped 606 can do and by all means do it. but if the big tuners are worried about the VE making to much torque for the factory bottom end I would think the p-pump will too.
Perhaps when I'm older and smarter and more motivated I will.
01-20-2015, 02:53 AM
#76
(04-26-2011, 09:59 AM)dieselmeken(04-22-2011, 10:14 AM)tomnik 0 460 415 992
max. 73 ccm
5 cyl. electronic
0 460 406 018 volvo: at 0.75 bar boost: max. 45 ccm
6 cyl.
Tom
Here is some "knowhow" from the dieseltech!
This is NOT comparable figures, the amount of fuel that is in the testsheet is depending of the testinjectors & pipes in the bench. For example the 992 pump is to be run against 116 injectors and 1,8 x350 pipes, 018 pump is to be run against 000 injector and 2x840 pipes.
Difference in amount of fuel is so high and not comparable.
For example, the 116 testinjector has 0,6mm orifice plate and 210 bar opening pressure, 000 injector has 150 bar opening pressure, no orifice plate.
If you calibrate a 992 after the testsheet with 000 ( wrong injectors)or even only wrong pipes, the engine goes bananas.
So just compare fuelamount is not the way to go.
IF you are going to put in a VE pump on a OM 603 for example, the pump must bee adjusted according to the testsheet for this engine. The things you can use in a sprinterpump is the distributor head & camplate that is a match. Put it in a mechanical housing and work with it in the testbench until it works OK.
Advanace piston in the VE pump is to be used, but you can not use the gear with advance that is when you have inlinepump, you need the sprocket from the sprinter, otherwise there can be a conflict with the advance.
If you are intend to go over 3500 rpm, the 12 & 14 mm rotorhead is no good, they do overfuel at low rpm and gives less fuel over 3500 rpm. 11 mm is the ideal size, nice curve on fuel up to over 5000 rpm.
12 mm is for agriculture pumps, high tourqe at low rpm.
Hi,
You should messure with his own injectors (Not like that or something simmilar, just that you will use)
offroaddieselhu
(01-05-2015, 05:49 PM)raidaru(01-05-2015, 04:13 PM)starynovy I dont see a way trough here.. When you max out 11mm plunger you are done for, and that comes pretty soon. 10mm stock pulled out barely 220HP with hot EGTs on BMW M51 which is really close to OM603. Not gonna make much more difference on OM606.. Maybe 270-300HP with some smoke from prolonged injection duration with 11mm head. As Dieselmeken said, 12+mm head is no good, even if you would use that fuel from down low with VNT turbo OM606 wont take that torque and throws rod.There's a guy with a G-wagen @here , compound turbo om606, he dynoed 1028nm@2800 rpm, and rods were still in their place. The tdi guys, throw some nozzles,turbo and software and they have 280hp and 600 nm on their 2.5 R5 tdi's.......... I believe 290TD om602 have some potential too, it's just that is way easier to build sth like everybody else than to try sth new, and risk to break it as u don't know it's limits, but it would be fun!!!
Hi
You can use into the indirect engine 12 or 12,5 element
offroaddieselhu
This post was last modified: 01-20-2015, 02:56 AM by offroaddieselhu.
offroaddieselhu
01-20-2015, 02:53 AM #76(04-26-2011, 09:59 AM)dieselmeken(04-22-2011, 10:14 AM)tomnik 0 460 415 992
max. 73 ccm
5 cyl. electronic
0 460 406 018 volvo: at 0.75 bar boost: max. 45 ccm
6 cyl.
Tom
Here is some "knowhow" from the dieseltech!
This is NOT comparable figures, the amount of fuel that is in the testsheet is depending of the testinjectors & pipes in the bench. For example the 992 pump is to be run against 116 injectors and 1,8 x350 pipes, 018 pump is to be run against 000 injector and 2x840 pipes.
Difference in amount of fuel is so high and not comparable.
For example, the 116 testinjector has 0,6mm orifice plate and 210 bar opening pressure, 000 injector has 150 bar opening pressure, no orifice plate.
If you calibrate a 992 after the testsheet with 000 ( wrong injectors)or even only wrong pipes, the engine goes bananas.
So just compare fuelamount is not the way to go.
IF you are going to put in a VE pump on a OM 603 for example, the pump must bee adjusted according to the testsheet for this engine. The things you can use in a sprinterpump is the distributor head & camplate that is a match. Put it in a mechanical housing and work with it in the testbench until it works OK.
Advanace piston in the VE pump is to be used, but you can not use the gear with advance that is when you have inlinepump, you need the sprocket from the sprinter, otherwise there can be a conflict with the advance.
If you are intend to go over 3500 rpm, the 12 & 14 mm rotorhead is no good, they do overfuel at low rpm and gives less fuel over 3500 rpm. 11 mm is the ideal size, nice curve on fuel up to over 5000 rpm.
12 mm is for agriculture pumps, high tourqe at low rpm.
Hi,
You should messure with his own injectors (Not like that or something simmilar, just that you will use)
offroaddieselhu
(01-05-2015, 05:49 PM)raidaru(01-05-2015, 04:13 PM)starynovy I dont see a way trough here.. When you max out 11mm plunger you are done for, and that comes pretty soon. 10mm stock pulled out barely 220HP with hot EGTs on BMW M51 which is really close to OM603. Not gonna make much more difference on OM606.. Maybe 270-300HP with some smoke from prolonged injection duration with 11mm head. As Dieselmeken said, 12+mm head is no good, even if you would use that fuel from down low with VNT turbo OM606 wont take that torque and throws rod.There's a guy with a G-wagen @here , compound turbo om606, he dynoed 1028nm@2800 rpm, and rods were still in their place. The tdi guys, throw some nozzles,turbo and software and they have 280hp and 600 nm on their 2.5 R5 tdi's.......... I believe 290TD om602 have some potential too, it's just that is way easier to build sth like everybody else than to try sth new, and risk to break it as u don't know it's limits, but it would be fun!!!
Hi
You can use into the indirect engine 12 or 12,5 element
offroaddieselhu
01-20-2015, 12:59 PM
#77
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFX4tcuj...e=youtu.be
I just installed a Bosch VE pump into a OM604. seams like it works fine and can give a lot of fuel(at least a lot more than any stock M pump)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFX4tcuj...e=youtu.be
01-20-2015, 02:48 PM
#78
(01-20-2015, 12:59 PM)erling66 I just installed a Bosch VE pump into a OM604. seams like it works fine and can give a lot of fuel(at least a lot more than any stock M pump)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFX4tcuj...e=youtu.be
Very interesting. It seems to be louder at idle compared to 5.5 and 6 mm M pumps. Also knocks more when revved.
From what engine did you take the pump ? Did it just bolt up ?
(01-20-2015, 12:59 PM)erling66 I just installed a Bosch VE pump into a OM604. seams like it works fine and can give a lot of fuel(at least a lot more than any stock M pump)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFX4tcuj...e=youtu.be
Very interesting. It seems to be louder at idle compared to 5.5 and 6 mm M pumps. Also knocks more when revved.
From what engine did you take the pump ? Did it just bolt up ?
Jox
Unregistered
01-21-2015, 03:36 PM
#80
Timing is difficult because there are no markings you can use, so I use the drip method and set it at 16 degree BTD
01-22-2015, 10:12 AM
#82
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Try oficial timing method for those pumps. Rotate engine to TDC and measure plunger lift. Something around 1mm should be a good start.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
01-22-2015, 12:31 PM
#83
(01-22-2015, 10:12 AM)starynovy Try oficial timing method for those pumps. Rotate engine to TDC and measure plunger lift. Something around 1mm should be a good start.
I know but there are very little space in the back of the pump and I don,t have an indicator clock what will fit.
11-05-2015, 10:26 AM
#84
I've been searching a lot but i dot see any thread about it.
I heard from someone that citronen jumper or another truck pump fits and makes more fuel?
This post was last modified: 11-05-2015, 03:05 PM by street_666.
street_666
11-05-2015, 10:26 AM #84Can anyone make a list of 4 cyl ve pumps ?
I've been searching a lot but i dot see any thread about it.
I heard from someone that citronen jumper or another truck pump fits and makes more fuel?
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