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Performance upgrades and WVO????
bdiesel Offline
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#1
Performance upgrades and WVO????
Hello all,
This is my first post on this wonderful forum. From early college on thru about 5 years ago I owned and drove a 78 240D, an 82, 84, and 85 300D (not all at the same time). So I have much love and respect for these cars. I gave them up when I started driving a full size pick up for work. In June I start a new job which will no longer require the truck, but will log a lot of miles. So I'm looking to get back into a 300D.
In all the time I owned them I never realized that there was so much perfomance potential. Now that I found this site I'm stoked to get started. However, I'm also very interested in a 2 tank WVO conversion. I know several of the restaurant owners in town and think I could do this pretty easily and save some money as diesel inches up over $4/gal.

My question is (finally) can I run these performance upgrades while pushing WVO through the system? Is there a conflict?
Thanks in advance!
03-03-2011, 03:11 PM
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300D50 Offline
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#2
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Better to turn it into biodiesel, it's not that hard or expensive, and you significantly lessen the wear and tear on the fuel system.

Welcome to the forum!
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72

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03-03-2011, 04:00 PM
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yankneck696 Offline
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#3
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
A well planned (or bought) 2 tank system with WVO will give you comperable performance (give or take a bit) to diesel. It will also wear the IP due to acidity (so we have been told). It is also illegal to run on the road, due to not paying the road taxes to support the infrastructure that you are using.
That said, if you still wish to proceed, allow the WVO to settle, filter it, filter it & filter it again. Then, run a good set of water separating filters & make sure that the WVO is up to temp before introducing it to the engine, then make sure you purge it well enough when done driving (unless it's a quick stop).
Expect to replace or rebuild your IP sooner than running Diesel or Bio. Change ALL, I repeat ALL flexible fuel lines with Viton(?).
Oh, don't forget to carry alot of car wash, cuz the seagulls will be near...LOL
Welcome to the forum & put your flame retardant suit on, because you will probably get blasted from a small minority for doing it...

Ed
03-03-2011, 05:42 PM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#4
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
(03-03-2011, 03:11 PM)bdiesel Wrote: My question is (finally) can I run these performance upgrades while pushing WVO through the system?
Until the engine dies from being abused with WVO.

Quote:It is also illegal to run on the road, due to not paying the road taxes to support the infrastructure that you are using.
Wrong. I can't be used because no conversion has ever been DOT or EPA certified and WVO's emissions are very high compared to diesel, preventing EPA acceptance.
(This post was last modified: 03-03-2011, 06:32 PM by ForcedInduction.)
03-03-2011, 06:30 PM
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yankneck696 Offline
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#5
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
I do believe that it is illegal due to not paying road taxes.
Probably also the other reasons as stated by FI...
Again, you will probably get blasted from a small minority for doing it...
In my personal opinion, (wearing NOMEX), we as a race of humans are so egotistical to believe that we really contribute to global warming. Mt. St. Helen's eruption affected the weather patterns for years. There are dozens, if not more, yearly (wether undersea or above) that spew more emissions than we as a race can spew in centuries.
Do what you wish, as long as you understand the consequences.

Ed
03-03-2011, 07:05 PM
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bdiesel Offline
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#6
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
This is a very sad statement, but I think the wife will deal with a couple containers in the garage. I doubt very seriously she will let me set up a chemistry set! It is very early in the planning stages, so I will read a lot more about biodiesel. No need to flame me, but constructive advice is very welcome.
I think I will start another thread that doesn't have WVO in the title to ask another question.
03-03-2011, 11:09 PM
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dust Offline
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#7
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
There was a thread at biodiesel.infopop where a guy with a cummins posted dyno runs on D2 and on WVO, with not much power lost on WVO. You can find information about pay road tax, and whether you have to or not(some states and countries don't require unless using over a certain amount, some require special licenses to touch the stuff. You should be able to find it at the above site, or at frybrid.com. That said, an mercedes is said to be one of the best platforms to veg. Consider water injection if you worry about coking. Some Merc guys have found that it reduces the crankcase pressure using it (removes junk of rings and allows them to seal correctly).
03-04-2011, 05:26 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#8
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
(03-03-2011, 06:30 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote: WVO's emissions are very high compared to diesel, preventing EPA acceptance.

URL?
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03-04-2011, 10:19 AM
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yankneck696 Offline
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#9
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
http://www.buffalobiodiesel.org/svo_emissions.pdf
http://www.plantdrive.com/html/emissions.html
http://green.autoblog.com/2007/01/30/nat...l-emissio/
http://www.noendpress.com/caleb/biodiesel/index.php

There's 4 different ones. 1 shows slightly higher emissions from WVO probably due to an inferior install. I tried to find impartial studies, but after a legnthy Google search, I picked these 4.
I would like to see actual EPA studies.

Ed
03-04-2011, 02:52 PM
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RustyLugNut Offline
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#10
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
This needs to be moved to alt fuels.
03-04-2011, 03:13 PM
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yankneck696 Offline
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#11
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
http://www.epa.gov/oms/renewablefuels/420f10009.htm
clearly states that WVO is not certified, but also states that there have been NO certification tests for WVO as of 2/2010
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-effic.../printable
Some states, though, are onboard with the move to carbon-neutral WVO. Pennsylvania and Arkansas, for instance, automatically exempt grease-car owners from those fuel taxes [source: Fuller].

The hope in the alternative-fuel community is that the action taken by Pennsylvania, Arkansas and others will catch on. Perhaps the biggest obstacle is a simple lack of infrastructure to deal adequately with waste vegetable oil as fuel. In some states, people can sign up to pre-pay fuel taxes when they make the switch to WVO -- but that requires an established system to collect and tag that money as WVO-connected, which many states are not yet set up to do. So grease-car owners who do try to pay their fuel taxes are stuck working within the framework set up for other types of fuels -- which is how they end up having to become commercial "fuel receivers" when they deal with a whole 10 gallons a week.
I do agree that this should go to Alt fuels.


Ed
03-04-2011, 03:30 PM
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bdiesel Offline
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#12
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
I'm sorry fellas, I didn't post in alt fuels because I wasn't asking about the fuel, I was curious if the fuel would be compatible with the fancy things like IP 7.5 elements, injectors, etc. If you spend that kind of money to hop up the engine it would be terrible to run an alt fuel through it all and ruin it.
03-04-2011, 03:39 PM
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yankneck696 Offline
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#13
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
There are many vehicles that are pouring the miles on with WVO. The wear will be accelerated, but if you look at your fuel budget per year & come out to several thousand, what the heck, ya can get a new IP every few years & not care. The WVO is free & Diesel could get to $5 per gallon soon. I applaud Pennsylvania & Arkansas for allowing WVO to be used untaxed. I think other states will follow. I did 3 years on a 240D engine with WVO & a turbo, which as I was told would blow up. It's in a Samurai with 36" tires & 6 wheel drive. It's still being used every day at the salvage yard I worked at 5 years ago. Probably 35-40,000 miles on it that way by now.

Ed
03-04-2011, 05:30 PM
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yankneck696 Offline
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#14
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
http://www.boe.ca.gov/sptaxprog/faqbio.htm
California board of equalization stated that you need to pay the taxes on WVO used on road vehicles. I suppose that it should be legal if they are willing to set up a taxation program for it.

Ed
03-05-2011, 08:44 AM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#15
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
(03-03-2011, 07:05 PM)yankneck696 Wrote: I do believe that it is illegal due to not paying road taxes.
Belief doesn't have an effect on reality.

(03-04-2011, 02:52 PM)yankneck696 Wrote: I would like to see actual EPA studies.
Emissions is not WVO's problem. WVO has nothing even resembling a standard. One batch can be drastically different from the next, even from the same source in the same week. Oil type, age, oxidation, hydrogenation, bin cleaning chemicals, food fat, food particles, viscosity, water contamination and temperature all have a major effect on emissions and engine lifespan. There is no possible way to compensate for them.
One guy doing an uncontrolled test on a forum means nothing. His batch can have little resemblance to any individuals and nothing is mentioned as to what type of oil was used, the preparation, fuel temperature or what was measured.

Biodiesel solves this completely by having a set process and standards for the resulting product. That means one persons batch in California will be very similar to someones in New York no matter the base oil. Even an animal fat base will have similar results with only the cloud point and BTUs being different.

Quote:clearly states that WVO is not certified, but also states that there have been NO certification tests for WVO as of 2/2010
Thats because it can't be done, for the reason stated above. It also means anyone is able to attempt certification.

Quote:Some states, though, are onboard with the move to carbon-neutral WVO
Being "carbon-neutral" has no basis in scientific fact. ANY form of combustion is harmful to the environment. The only way to significantly reduce emissions is to increase efficiency, and reducing fuel economy by 20% with WVO is very counterproductive to that.

Quote:Perhaps the biggest obstacle is a simple lack of infrastructure to deal adequately with waste vegetable oil as fuel.
Thats because it has no future. WVO production depends on unhealthy foods and diets. With the trend being towards reducing fat, reducing food intake and shifting away from the fast-food format, WVO production will never be able to meet more than the fanatic demand.

Biodiesel on the other hand has no required tie to food. It can be made from raw plant matter, animal fats, algae and waste vegetable oils.

Quote:I'm sorry fellas, I didn't post in alt fuels because I wasn't asking about the fuel, I was curious if the fuel would be compatible with the fancy things like IP 7.5 elements, injectors, etc.
Yes. Pretty much anything that will burn will work, the question is for how long.

Quote:The wear will be accelerated, but if you look at your fuel budget per year & come out to several thousand, what the heck
What the heck, lets all take a crap on the environment by being wasteful, polluting and increasing the burden on other people.

Quote:The WVO is free
Besides the required conversion and hacking up a good vehicle, the occasional failure of the engine and/or injection pump. Smile

Quote:Diesel could get to $5 per gallon soon.
Gotta pay to play. I just paid $50 for half a tank and I don't have one complaint about it. If nothing else, high fuel prices means fewer people will be clogging the roads.
If cost is the primary concern, go get a $150 bike from wal-mart ... or walk.

Quote:I applaud Pennsylvania & Arkansas for allowing WVO to be used untaxed.
Even though its completely pointless given its still illegal on the federal level.

Quote:I suppose that it should be legal if they are willing to set up a taxation program for it.
Nope. Taxation doesn't change anything since pieces of the puzzle are still missing.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2011, 08:56 AM by ForcedInduction.)
03-05-2011, 08:50 AM
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yankneck696 Offline
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#16
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Please read the posts to see what is being done about it. Please post anything scientific (20% reduction in fuel economy) & are you the one to talk about hacking up a car? I would like to see proof, instead of rhetoric.
Ed
03-05-2011, 05:16 PM
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bdiesel Offline
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#17
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
I was reading about CNG injection, and it seems to me that would work great with WVO. I believe it would burn it more completely, add power, and give better mpgs. Anybody have any experience with this?
03-08-2011, 07:35 PM
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#18
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
On an IDI engine, once it hits the prechamber ball, it detonates.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72

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03-08-2011, 07:38 PM
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bdiesel Offline
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#19
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Would it work on a 617, those aren't IDI correct? Or am I backwards?
03-08-2011, 07:46 PM
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#20
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
61X and 60X engines are IDI
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72

I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
03-08-2011, 08:27 PM
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larsalan Offline
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#21
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
(03-08-2011, 07:35 PM)bdiesel Wrote: I was reading about CNG injection, and it seems to me that would work great with WVO. I believe it would burn it more completely, add power, and give better mpgs. Anybody have any experience with this?

I think the block and the and your cng tank will explode!! be careful Wink
I'm totally just kidding
Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
(This post was last modified: 03-08-2011, 08:47 PM by larsalan.)
03-08-2011, 08:41 PM
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stan Offline
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#22
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
(03-08-2011, 08:41 PM)larsalan Wrote: I think the block and the and your cng tank will explode!!

[Image: gallery_1_1_18776.gif]
03-08-2011, 11:18 PM
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RustyLugNut Offline
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#23
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Fist off, yes, technically WVO is illegal to run in your MBz diesel. But that should not deter you. If it is really in your bones to experiment with it go right ahead. It does mean you will have to work with your local government to deal with your WVO collection plan and road tax fees. It will be years to never before the Federal government will be interested. FI is right, it is illegal by Fed standards, but mainly because WVO is of such a small portion of the energy pie that it is not worth the time to set standards and tax it. I have tried, contacting the local and state tax board, DOE and EPA, and so on. We just came to the conclusion, there is simply no proper guidelines and a compromise of sorts was agreed on. Is it Federally legal? No. But until FI quits driving faster than the speed limit, I'll keep using WVO in my old MBz diesels.

Will WVO shorten the life of my diesel engine? Maybe, depends. If done improperly, most definitely. I have sources for oil (family owned Asian restaurants) that provide an excellent base of WVO. If you don't, the variability of your WVO, as FI has mentioned, will make your work to prepare it for fuel very difficult and possibly detrimental to your engine. Do you have room to process the fuel? You will need room to properly settle and separate, filter and centrifuge, dry and neutralize your fuel. Then, the vehicle has to be properly converted, be it single tank in moderate climes, or duel tank for areas with some chill. Most of the conversions I have seen are NOT adequately heating the fuel. Elsbett of Germany has been doing decades of work converting diesel vehicles to run on clean rapeseed oil. Their system final heats the oil to a temperature much higher than engine coolant temperature to make sure of proper atomization patterns from the injectors and to eliminate the problems of ring coking and injector tip fouling. Most domestic systems I have seen do not reach this higher temperature. Coking and fouling can be an issue in these systems. Subsequently, it can shorten the life of your engine and increase emissions. But so can improper tuning. Or superturbo tuning for that matter, so why even discuss life of use? I'm being jocular, if u didn't notice. I have seen a 10% decrease in fuel economy consistent with the fact that WVO on the average has 10% less btu's than fossil diesel.

If done properly, MBz diesels CAN live a long time on WVO. I have an 84 300SD with a 2 tank system at 435k miles; WVO started at 183k. The body is rusted to the point of near uselessness from a life of ocean misting, but the engine and drive-train still are going strong. It is semi retired. I have a 85 190d with a single tank system and an estimated (log book) 627k miles (ODO broke at 549k), WVO started at 70k when the vehicle was rescued at auction from the insurance company (rear ended). I still drive it on a daily basis as a parts getter.



Summarizing, I usually advise AGAINST someone converting to WVO unless it is for the fun and learning. Most people do not drive enough to make it economically viable even at 5 dollar a gallon prices. Put your time and money into maximizing your MBz diesel. Even if you want to have the fun and learning experience of bio fuels, go the bio-diesel route as was advised above. You can make relatively small batches to start with, and if you decide to end the experiment, you will not be out a ton of money and your vehicles will not have been modified to WVO specs. I have 5 MBz cars, 4 diesels, 3 running on WVO which last year used just under 700 gallons of WVO. Even at today's diesel prices which are at roughly $4.50 per gallon as of this writing, it would not be worth the time and effort were it not for my teenage son who does most of the grunt work so he can drive for near free ( we do log and pay road tax fees). You would have to drive an awful lot of miles to make the effort pay off.

Can you use superturbo tuning tech on your WVO diesel? Most certainly! But you may not have the time left over after you collect, filter and process your WVO.

I will have to remark on the CNG/propane fogging in another post.

03-09-2011, 12:31 AM
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bdiesel Offline
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#24
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Thank you, that was a well informed and helpful post.
It seems to me that with the mileage you have logged you have saved thousands and thousands of dollars by using WVO, is that not correct?
I drive at least 500 miles a week, and generally more. While I still haven't got a good handle on exactly what a gallon of WVO that is ready to go in the tank will cost me, I would still think there is some big savings to be had.
There are several reasons that I would like to go this route, but the long term savings is the most intriguing one.
03-09-2011, 12:56 AM
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larsalan Offline
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#25
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
here is one tool to help thin your oil.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS..._500wt_976
Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
03-09-2011, 10:49 AM
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#26
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
I've run all my vehicles on SVO, sometimes used, sometimes new. I've got a source of Veg oil that is new now for 1/3rd of the price of regular. Now i'm STD'ing my Vito Van - I'm once again willing to run on straight veg. Will it ruin the pump, will it coke the engine up, will it burst into flames?! I'm looking into ways of reducing the chances like water injection....


Well we'll have to see how it goes. I would not run cold veg in a modified pump, and will most certainly be fitting a gear pump and relief valve to maintain a good input pressure to the IP, and it will go through a heat exchanger. It will be properly twin tanked and always shut down and started on regular diesel with thermostatic switch over to oil. I am thousands of pounds up, infact my business wouldnt have survived at one point if it wasnt for my legal ability to use 2500litres of biofuel in the uk legally without tax. I've never had a failure yet cause by vegetable oil (a couple of pluged filters - the w124 with om603 suffered cold wind hitting filter), and in 12years+ even with CDI engines too, atleast 200,000miles covered. My Smart CDI (year 2000) did 140,000miles before it was worn out, but the engine was as good as new, injectors mint, good compression, was remapped and pulled like a train - a tiny train lol. 100,000miles was on twin tanked veg / 100% bio / 50% veg 50%diesel. My Vito has done 150,000miles, was my dads an it was on 100% bio from week1, but on and off until 100,000 then mostly 100% bio OR 90%veg/10%unleaded petrol for the next 50,000ml.

Only reason for pulling the CDI engine out was the turbo variable vane seized (now this *could* be due to veg soot....) and i put off trying to clean it until it was solid.... Upon removed of the head it was clean inside, no deposits. Valves look clean, cylinders still have lovely honing marks. Even the turbo was spotless inside. And I wanted to go STD! Sooo... i am!

If it ruins the pump, then it'll go back to dieselmeken with the money to rebuild it - or for a new one and we will re-evaluate it then! Will it run at crazy horsepowers? i dont know. and if it doesnt, its no problem to drive to work and back with the ALDA set to lower fuelling, and run on diesel in fun time. I will do it because I can, and I can save £1750 / $2670 per year.
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W639 Vito OM606 + 722.6 STD - in progress

Current progress: engine in, gearbox in, bumper bar modified to accept w210 radiator, audi electric fan, very tight squeeze, interior stripped out ready for new seats (w211) and custom dash with w211 clocks controlled by arduino with split fuel gauge covering main tank and auxiliary for Veg Oil ...

- DSL1 ECU for Electronic OM606 Pump (currently fitting wiring)
Next; 722.6 Controller, HX40 with homemade manifold, Air-to-water intercooler, homemade exhaust, MOT.... One day!



11-18-2015, 07:25 PM
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charlysays Offline
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#27
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Thought I'd add my two cents here...

I run my Mercedes C250 TD Sport (OM605 turbo) on WVO and have done for the last 5 years. Before that I ran a 300,000 mile Peugeot 405 1.9 TD on it for 50,000 miles.

I bought my Mercedes with 155,000 miles off a friend who had run it on biodiesel and WVO blends for 20,000 miles.
Since then I have put 85,000 miles on it over 5 years on 100% pure WVO. Occasionally I mix in 5% petrol or less to stop it turning to margarine in sub zero tempteratures. The car is largely unmodified and is run single tank on WVO. So it starts in freezing temperatures on WVO and has done for the last 5 years. Its never failed to start and never broken down due to the fuel I use.

The modifications are as follows.
New injector nozzles (larger needle diameter than stock, can get the bosch part number if you want).
Injection timing advanced.
Viton O-rings for all pipes and delivery valves.
Boost activated Water Injection kit fitted (gets through 5 ltrs of water every 2-3 weeks).

First the saving- The car cost me £1300 and has only needed typical repairs associated with wear and tear, nothing fuel related. The saving is £1500 from running on WVO per year. I've saved in excess of £7000 running on WVO, from a £1300 car.

The car now has 235,000 miles on it and is still running fine.

The WVO I get is from a high class chip shop who only cook fish and chips in it for 1-2 days. It is GM Free Rapeseed oil, which is grown as part of the crop cylce here in Northern Europe.

It did take me a few months to get it all running smoothly, 5 years ago. It was a fun learning process. If the car dies tomorrow, I'm still thousands of pounds better off.

It takes me less than 1 hour per week to collect oil and make fuel. I have a pump and delivery nozzle by my shed so I effictively have my own private veg oil filling station.

I'll be fitting a 180hp remap to this car and continue to run it on 100% wvo, just to make it even more of a guinea pig!
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2016, 01:07 PM by charlysays.)
02-26-2016, 05:07 AM
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charlysays Offline
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#28
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Had my GT2871 OM605 running pure veg oil- did a 500 mile round trip to London last week and gave a BMW M1 a shock on the motorway Smile
I am having issues with red lining it as the weather gets cold though. I may have to loop the fuel return or at worst fit huge pipes and a big heated filter.
11-26-2016, 08:20 AM
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Tobulus Offline
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#29
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
Big fuel line (12mm ID) all the way from the fuel Tank, a bigger fuel filter, two parallel prefilters and a stronger lift pump solved all my fuel supply issues, also 100% WVO on OM605 at a maximum of 4.2V on the electronic IP
11-27-2016, 05:28 AM
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street_666 Offline
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#30
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
charlysays T  can you write the part number of injector nozzles 
how much is advanced the Injection timing.
and how looks the Boost activated Water Injection kit fitted 
11-27-2016, 08:14 AM
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charlysays Offline
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#31
RE: Performance upgrades and WVO????
(11-27-2016, 08:14 AM)street_666 Wrote: charlysays T  can you write the part number of injector nozzles 
how much is advanced the Injection timing.
and how looks the Boost activated Water Injection kit fitted 

Hi, they are DN O SD 327.
I guessed at how much to move the timing, I just loosened the pump mounting bolts, the high pressure lined and turned the 8mm set screw. I think the pump should rotate anti clockwise (top of the pump towards the engine) when looking at it from the front. I made a mark on the edge of the flange and the pump bracket and it moved about 2mm.
The engine rattles more but felt noticeably better.

I found the different nozzles gave more power on the stock map.
12-07-2016, 05:28 AM
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