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400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
greg123 Offline
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#1
400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Okay guys all things being equal I have done my research and want to know what you think best for 400hp with a stock head/block in a w210. I could go either the pre 2000 300 24v turbo 606 or the post 2000 320cdi motor.

Research has told me:

cdi is stronger internally, but lower revving
606 is strong enough for 400hp and higher revving may save the auto box from dying due to less torque needs to be generated (hold torque back at lower rpm to save box can still hit 400hp at higher rpm).
606 will need turbo and pump elements and remap
320cdi will need turbo injector nozzles and remap
both will need some exhaust/intercooler/manifold work

If your goal is to beat an E55amg w210 in performance (so 350hp with more torque would do it, but 400hp would be great) and make a nice drivable car keeping the auto box, all other things being equal which would you choose as your starting base?

Thoughts, if you have any!

Greg Big Grin
I forget to add, I think the CDi has a 722.6 which is a stronger box than the 606. So maybe that's worth considering too?
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2011, 09:03 PM by greg123.)
01-09-2011, 09:00 PM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#2
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
CDI without question, its better in every way.
01-09-2011, 09:21 PM
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greg123 Offline
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#3
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Okay vote 1 for the CDi. I just looked up the torque handling of the 722.6 it has and if the info in that thread is correct, presuming max hp is at 4000rpm (not unreasonable I think?) if I push the box to it's max 578lb/ft limit I'm talking 430hp. So maybe with some good oil in the box and a line pressure mod or chip it if that's possible to firm up the shifts and stop slipping the TC, 400hp could be reliable?
01-10-2011, 03:52 AM
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greg123 Offline
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#4
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
No one else got any thoughts? I have done a massive amount of reading and come to the education that a) a 3.0 wiht a turbo/ip will do way over 400hp, b) a 3.0 will not do 400hp wiht any turbo, massive work and compounds or super/turbo compound will be needed.

Seems there is a variety of info on this site, with little flow numbers and little to no information on the 606 even less on the cdi.

cdi's go for £2,000 here in the UK - has no one worked on one?

I can always pioneer I guess ;-)

Greg.
01-11-2011, 08:25 PM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#5
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-11-2011, 08:25 PM)greg123 Wrote: I can always pioneer I guess ;-)

Please do, CDI modifications are much desired.
01-11-2011, 09:25 PM
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muuris Offline
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#6
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
If the cost is no problem, you don't like high revs that much and you're okay with something between 300-400hp, take the CDI. If you want to be able to rev the engine higher, want to be sure to achieve at least 400hp and have plenty more potential (100hp more), take the 606.

The biggest issues with CDI are the injectors and finding a proper turbo. CDI can't rev like 606, so you'll need a turbo that spools low down, but required air volume and pressure ratios rule out the "normal" VNT turbos these cars have.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2011, 01:36 PM by muuris.)
01-12-2011, 01:34 PM
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Riverstick Offline
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#7
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-12-2011, 01:34 PM)muuris Wrote: If the cost is no problem, you don't like high revs that much and you're okay with something between 300-400hp, take the CDI. If you want to be able to rev the engine higher, want to be sure to achieve at least 400hp and have plenty more potential (100hp more), take the 606.

The biggest issues with CDI are the injectors and finding a proper turbo. CDI can't rev like 606, so you'll need a turbo that spools low down, but required air volume and pressure ratios rule out the "normal" VNT turbos these cars have.

Hi Muuris,

What turbo do you think is suitable for this engine(OM 613)? What size injector nozzles do you recomend? I have a W220 S320 CDI I'd like to tweak a little.....

Maybe Forced might chime in here?.....the input from a heavy truck diesel engineer is always appreciated
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01-12-2011, 03:31 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#8
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
How much power do you want ?

650nm/260-270hp you can get with bigger cooler and 3bar map.
With decent remap, but I have no idea, where you can get that.
01-12-2011, 04:13 PM
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Riverstick Offline
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#9
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-12-2011, 04:13 PM)tuikku Wrote: .
How much power do you want ?

650nm/260-270hp you can get with bigger cooler and 3bar map.
With decent remap, but I have no idea, where you can get that.

I was planning on hitting aound 300BHP(ish). I still want a useable,driveable and economical car.

Ideas I planned were as follows;

(1) Switch off that power and fuel sapping EGR system.....both electronically and physically

(2) Take the guts out of my cat(S...three I think?) to help the exhaust flow free

(3) Improve/change/re nozzle the injectors.....has anyone here had any experience of extruded honing? as advertised by these guys?

(4) Remap the transmission shit pattern to change up earlier and lock up the converter earlier to take advantage of the inline six's good pulling torque output

(4) Fit a bigger intercooler(if readily available)

I am open to all advice and suggestion....words of wisdom and experience greatly appreciated

" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
01-12-2011, 05:31 PM
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greg123 Offline
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#10
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Who will remap your trans shift pattern for you?

Extrude honed nozzles are generally not as good as off the shelf larger ones as it's hard to match them all, I use nozzles from Bosio and the like for performance (or Bosch, but larger) but I haven't experience of this on the cdi. The principle is the same though. I would also like to half the injection pressure, there is a lot of drag from running such a high pressure on the pump and atomisation is better, but not that much better, than 300bar IP engines. Something half way in between the two would still run just as well but have less sacrificial load on the engine - my di runs super clean on 300bar old school injectors, you'd still be running around double that pressure or more!

Greg.

(01-12-2011, 05:31 PM)Riverstick Wrote: I was planning on hitting aound 300BHP(ish). I still want a useable,driveable and economical car.

Ideas I planned were as follows;

(1) Switch off that power and fuel sapping EGR system.....both electronically and physically

(2) Take the guts out of my cat(S...three I think?) to help the exhaust flow free

(3) Improve/change/re nozzle the injectors.....has anyone here had any experience of extruded honing? as advertised by these guys?

(4) Remap the transmission shit pattern to change up earlier and lock up the converter earlier to take advantage of the inline six's good pulling torque output

(4) Fit a bigger intercooler(if readily available)

I am open to all advice and suggestion....words of wisdom and experience greatly appreciated

01-12-2011, 06:35 PM
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Riverstick Offline
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#11
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-12-2011, 06:35 PM)greg123 Wrote: Who will remap your trans shift pattern for you?

Extrude honed nozzles are generally not as good as off the shelf larger ones as it's hard to match them all, I use nozzles from Bosio and the like for performance (or Bosch, but larger) but I haven't experience of this on the cdi. The principle is the same though. I would also like to half the injection pressure, there is a lot of drag from running such a high pressure on the pump and atomisation is better, but not that much better, than 300bar IP engines. Something half way in between the two would still run just as well but have less sacrificial load on the engine - my di runs super clean on 300bar old school injectors, you'd still be running around double that pressure or more!

Greg.

Not sure yet Greg as its difficult to get someone to do that over here....auto boxes are not that overpopular and most workshops are only interested in rebuilding/resetting them to OEM specs. I have a friend who does engine remapping so I'll enquire from him. I noticed some of the finnish guys on here write their own maps. The US is the home of the automatic and they seem to have the way of upgrading and improving OEM 'boxes and torque converters with great results. I'm sure someone here can put us right on that front.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was led to believe that the higher the injection pressure,the better the combustion/atomization/efficiency/power/particulate yields....particularly as you climb the hoorsepower table? I know driving the high pressure pump requires a significant ammount of energy but we were told the benefits far outweighed that.

What DI have you?


This is the link to the Extruded honing process...has anyone any experience of this?



http://dynomitediesel.com/user_pages/0_b...l?page=The Honing Process
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(This post was last modified: 01-12-2011, 07:39 PM by Riverstick.)
01-12-2011, 07:34 PM
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greg123 Offline
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#12
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
I have everything from OHV Lucas single stage IDI through Bosch EDC to the PD unit injecto and CR3 common rail engines I work on (I don't run a PD/CR mainly just because I have too many cars and the CR VAG are brand new, they never used 1st/2nd gen using the unit injector instead).

You are correct that atomisation gets better with pressure rise. But it's a reverse exponential curve, from early pressures like 100 bar IDI nozzles the jump to 300 bar enabled DI engines to ignite and atomise. PD then jumped to around 2,000 bar (around 7 times the pressure) and emissions cleaned up if I recall from euro 3 to euro 4 but couldn't pass euro 5 so they moved again to CRv3. Also, you'd think it would be better atomisation, more efficient but it lost 5mpg on average and had to have a cambelt twice the size and special oil there was so much drag on the engine creating these huge pressures.

There is (for performance anyhow, not necessarily emissions) a sweet spot whre more pressure will just create more drag and there is an argument for putting in the fuel quick, but in large particles so they burn for a while. Fuel in small particles explodes quickly, bad for stress on the engine. Also very high pressure requires very tiny nozzles, so it's often a long duration of injection which means optimum timing cannot be adhered to.

So, I'm for the control system but may want to have far larger nozzles running a lower pressure - something around 500bar will still be cleaner than 1st gen di's but be more efficient and a lot easier to pump more fuel I think, if you don't have to pass it through such a narrow hole that it requires 2,000bar to get it to pass!

Greg.

(01-12-2011, 07:34 PM)Riverstick Wrote:
(01-12-2011, 06:35 PM)greg123 Wrote: Who will remap your trans shift pattern for you?

Extrude honed nozzles are generally not as good as off the shelf larger ones as it's hard to match them all, I use nozzles from Bosio and the like for performance (or Bosch, but larger) but I haven't experience of this on the cdi. The principle is the same though. I would also like to half the injection pressure, there is a lot of drag from running such a high pressure on the pump and atomisation is better, but not that much better, than 300bar IP engines. Something half way in between the two would still run just as well but have less sacrificial load on the engine - my di runs super clean on 300bar old school injectors, you'd still be running around double that pressure or more!

Greg.

Not sure yet Greg as its difficult to get someone to do that over here....auto boxes are not that overpopular and most workshops are only interested in rebuilding/resetting them to OEM specs. I have a friend who does engine remapping so I'll enquire from him. I noticed some of the finnish guys on here write their own maps. The US is the home of the automatic and they seem to have the way of upgrading and improving OEM 'boxes and torque converters with great results. I'm sure someone here can put us right on that front.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was led to believe that the higher the injection pressure,the better the combustion/atomization/efficiency/power/particulate yields....particularly as you climb the hoorsepower table? I know driving the high pressure pump requires a significant ammount of energy but we were told the benefits far outweighed that.

What DI have you?


This is the link to the Extruded honing process...has anyone any experience of this?



http://dynomitediesel.com/user_pages/0_b...l?page=The Honing Process

01-12-2011, 07:56 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#13
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
Orig turbo may just be enough to 300 with AMG injectors.
But, if you want bigger injectors work, as orig., it is a bit bigger job.
I have done many, and repaired others works even more.

Orig high pressure pump may not last (proceed not enough fuel).
+ fuel line airproblems in that 1350bar system.
(All the pumps are in front of car, vacuum sucks up diesel out of tank.)


Transmission program is good, very good.
It automatically takes into account the increased torq, if the rpogram is done right.
No need to do anything for that, surely.
01-13-2011, 05:37 AM
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#14
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-12-2011, 01:34 PM)muuris Wrote: but required air volume and pressure ratios rule out the "normal" VNT turbos these cars have.

Take a look at an S200. It can flow 56lb/min with a 4.75 PR. It won't spool like a VNT but it will be much better than an HX40.
01-13-2011, 09:19 AM
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tuikku Offline
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#15
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
These cdi´s needs less air.
I have done many 3,0cdi AMG´s to ++300hp.
AMG turbo has same compressor wheel, that "common" 320cdi, gt2359.
Turbine is 1mm larger in AMG, so it flows a bit better.

In my own 320cdi project I have AMG turbo with little bigger compressor, it is from garrett gt3267.

The biggest differences from AMG and common cdi, is injectors and cooler, which both are very good in AMG.

01-13-2011, 10:42 AM
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#16
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-13-2011, 10:42 AM)tuikku Wrote: These cdi´s needs less air.
I have done many 3,0cdi AMG´s to ++300hp.

But wasn't the topic about hitting 400hp.. so which turbo would you use?
01-14-2011, 03:16 AM
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tuikku Offline
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#17
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
As you very well know, I have no experiences about +400hp cdi´s.
...Yet

But something I know about VNT-chargers and programming.
I am open to all suggestions.
Personally i don´t like at all those very big chargers, which don´t ever work properly, but seems great in the engine room.
Maybe I use two smaller turbos, from Audi V6, 2,7L, or Transportter 174hp, I am not sure yet.
Both are good.

I think that turbo is not the biggest problem here.
Maybe the fuel lines gives more challenge.

I have already a good turbo, bigger high pressure pump and AMG power+ injectors.
Good start to learn more.
01-14-2011, 08:11 AM
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muuris Offline
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#18
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-14-2011, 08:11 AM)tuikku Wrote: .
As you very well know, I have no experiences about +400hp cdi´s.
...Yet

It wasn't like I was taunting you. I know you're a pioneer on CDI field, so even your craziest ideas are worth giving the second and third thought. I'd like to have a powerful 4wd CR diesel as daily driver, so this is also of personal interest.
01-14-2011, 12:21 PM
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#19
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-13-2011, 10:42 AM)tuikku Wrote: .
These cdi´s needs less air.
I have done many 3,0cdi AMG´s to ++300hp.
AMG turbo has same compressor wheel, that "common" 320cdi, gt2359.
Turbine is 1mm larger in AMG, so it flows a bit better.

In my own 320cdi project I have AMG turbo with little bigger compressor, it is from garrett gt3267.

The biggest differences from AMG and common cdi, is injectors and cooler, which both are very good in AMG.

Hi Tuikku,

Its great to have a CDI tuner onboard for this one. I have a few questions for you;

(1) Where do I get a larger intercooler...from a Sprinter or something?

(2) Do we need to increase the diameter of the fuel lines to let the fuel flow better?...or perhaps install one of these....
http://fass-fuel-pumps.com/ ....I know they use these to great advantage in Cummins B series,Powerstrokes etc Stateside with pretty good results.

(3) Where do I get the larger injectors....AMG

(4) Does the larger size automatically lower the operating pressure as Greg 123 mentioned a few posts above?

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01-15-2011, 06:38 PM
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#20
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-13-2011, 10:42 AM)tuikku Wrote: These cdi´s needs less air.

Right, IDI engines like to revv but they lose 15% efficiency to heat loss into the cylinder head.
01-15-2011, 06:53 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#21
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-15-2011, 06:38 PM)Riverstick Wrote: Hi Tuikku...

1. China

2. Maybe the line itself from tank to engine is ok.
But extra pump is a good suggestion.
I personally prefer some cheaper solution, maybe just simple fuel-pump near tank with over-pressure and over flow cut-off.
First the orig parts in very very good shape.

3. Part number is A6120700287
Bosch 0445110 151 or ...152

4. No, it is still equal, program orders it.
That means larger fuelling, all the time, if it is not corrected to right from program.
Wrong air/fuel rate, smoke.
But, if it is told "right" in program, ewerything works, like orig again.
Not vey difficult, but needs work.

01-16-2011, 05:15 AM
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#22
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Thank you Tuikku,

I see you are an acknowledged CDI tuning pioneer in the Nordic Countires....Do you have any thread pictures of your cars? Who does your programming for you?
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01-16-2011, 07:12 AM
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greg123 Offline
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#23
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Very interesting guys, thankyou - thankyou to Tuikku for your experiences too.

So I think what we are saying, if we take is that the 320cdi will stand up to 400hp fine and the auto box will too. But, it will need more air than the stock turbo can give and more fuel.

ForcedInduction looked at the S200 series and I think they are too big, most of that stuff will support up to 500hp and not being VNT if I wanted to keep sub-2000rpm spool up and bearing in mind the CDi doesn't need as much air as the idi I think something not quite as large for this street perfect 350-400hp.

Turning to the fueling issue, what's this air in the lines problem? As mentioned, just use a facet lift pump by the tank to push 4/5psi and make sure the fuel is under slight presusre to the pump. Even a 400bhp vehicle on full throttle doesn't use much fuel, the rate a lift pump can pour out fuel far exceeds the rate the engine can burn it. If there is still a problem, close loop the under bonnet fuel lines and put in a heat exchangeer, that way the fuel circulates round and is just 'topped up' in the circuit by fresh fuel from the tank pump. This system is well used on vegoil conversion.

Turning to the HP pump, what volume of fuel will it pump from an open outlet (no pressure) given a good supply (lift pump capable of oversupplying it at around 5psi)? If it simply can't pump the volume, then a bigger or twin HP pumps will be needed. But if it's a case that the pump is struggling more due to not being able to shift the required fuel throgh tiny nozzles at huge pressure, what about lowering the pump pressure by 500 or 1,000 bar and greatly increasing injector nozzle size. This will then be closer to injection pump DI pressures (though still higher) and as we know those 'large' hole injectos have no trouble flowing. The pump wouldn't have to raise as much pressure, would drag on the engine less and it would be easier to get the fuel into the engine. Personally I think this would be more interesting than the current common practice of pushing up rail pressure further and putting even more strain on the pump trying to force more fuel through tiny nozzles.

Regarding turbo, it would be great to know what flow rate and what psi boost you are running to make 300hp on the 3.0 tuikku. With better flow (1 more cylinder, 0.2 litre more displacement) from the 3.2 it shoudl require slightly less boost pressure to flow the same. From that, a flow and boost rate could be worked out for 400hp on the 6-cylinder.

Then there will be the matter of seeing if one VNT can be found that can raise that PR while still being efficient and can still spool up like the stock turbo. I'm going to guess not, not without creating a lot of EMP/poor efficiency/hot charge at the upper rpm on boost. I think it may be more sensible to run compounds, with the stock small turbo fed by a big vnt sized purely to deliver the total max airflow. During low speed operation, if you adjust the stop screw you can get these vnt's to practically shut off exhaust flow completely, so you could have the small turbo spun up by all the exhaust. As the EMP starts to rise, the large turbo vnt starts to open to control the EMP (the small turbo staying on a 'max boost' setting) which spools up the large turbo and you then get double compression of the intake air and a pressure ratio of at least 5 is possible with efficiency - easily able to push 4/500bhp worth of air into the engine. As serious exhaust flow starts due to the boost/power the engine is now pushing, the big vnt vanes open more and more and prevent the EMP getting too high, if needed the small VNT can also start to open up it's vanes to prevent excess EMP too - the combination of those would do awa with any need for a wastegate/EMP dump valve and also avoid extra plumbing.

Anyhow, there's some ideas.....

Greg.

01-16-2011, 12:09 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#24
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
I´ll do programming myself.

Orig 320cdi gives ~200hp/4200rpm at 60millis fuel rate.
If we want double power, we need at least double fuel rate - and with very good efficency.
If efficecy drops, need more fuel, but that gives only smoke and heat.
Orig high pressure pump gives ~100millis fuel rate, if it is in a very good shape, as new.
So, something must do.
Thats why the turbo is not the main problem now.

I allready have all the parts to practice, if I am able to built a little better fuel lines.

Picture was taken just before I am going to extract the front to pieces to make room for bigger high pressure pump and proper radiator for transmission oil.

[Image: 10dd1r6.jpg]

[Image: xpy3yx.jpg]
01-16-2011, 05:16 PM
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#25
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Looking good there Tuikku.....Where did the larger intercooler come from? What do you think of Greg's idea on lowering the rail pressure? Has anyone experience on how these engines will run if they are reprogrammed to do this?

Just to clear up.....if I just fit AMG injectors alone,do I need a remap or will the engine automatically run okay and produce extra horsepower & torque?

I have posted a thread under transmissions about reprogramming the auto 'box & torque converter lock up. What are you planning on doing with the gearbox and torque converter your project E320 CDI? http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/722-...-2146.html
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01-16-2011, 07:30 PM
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greg123 Offline
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#26
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
I take it that's not the standard intercooler? Looks big. Regarding fuel issues (talk tha first, talk turbos later), have you put a lift pump on to it feeding it with say 300mls at 5/6psi so able to oversupply it, and measured the flow out of the HP pump into an open container (no pressure, just the max flow)?

I'm curious, if the HP pump is supplied well and doesn't have to raise such a massive pressure which causes leak back past pistons etc, how much fuel it can move at sensible pressures say 500bar?

Failing that, sticking with stock pressures how about an Arson kit on the CP3 pump which should support 600hp or a Dragonslayer to 800hp - surely one of these modded pumps should fuel 400hp okay? From the usa, where CP3's are on 5.9 litre Cummins.

Greg.
01-16-2011, 07:33 PM
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#27
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-16-2011, 07:33 PM)greg123 Wrote: I take it that's not the standard intercooler? Looks big. Regarding fuel issues (talk tha first, talk turbos later), have you put a lift pump on to it feeding it with say 300mls at 5/6psi so able to oversupply it, and measured the flow out of the HP pump into an open container (no pressure, just the max flow)?

What make/model lift pump would you recommend we try Greg?

I'm curious, if the HP pump is supplied well and doesn't have to raise such a massive pressure which causes leak back past pistons etc, how much fuel it can move at sensible pressures say 500bar?

Are we talking of a total remap here to try to run at 500bar as I'd imagine the timing points would be totally out of tune otherwise?

Failing that, sticking with stock pressures how about an Arson kit on the CP3 pump which should support 600hp or a Dragonslayer to 800hp - surely one of these modded pumps should fuel 400hp okay? From the usa, where CP3's are on 5.9 litre Cummins.

Are you talking of driving this from the serpentine belt or replacing the original pump altogether?

Greg.

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01-16-2011, 07:51 PM
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Location: Nottingham, UK
#28
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Facet have loads, on closed loop systems I use 40106 but there are performance versions and you can pick anything from 3psi and a trickle to 30psi and flowing literally gallons a minute (imagine trying to burn that much fuel!!!!).

They are also all fully sealed, solid state and only kick in when pressure drops and they need to - not rotary pumps so they don't need to run all the time. Two wires to connect, stick it anywhee near the tank within about a foot above max of the fuel level and bingo, supply issues solved with fuel coming out the engine bay like a fuel pipe.

The pump modding I was on about would be on a stock pump, send it off to be modded (not sure if they upgrade the pistons, will reseach it further) and it comes back and still bolts on.

Yes - to lower rail pressure as it's controlled by the electronic actuator on the pump a remap would be needed. I'd imagine weaker springs in the injectors and bigger nozzles would be required to get you back to the same or better flow, but at a lower pressure with less drag and strain on the pump and less fuel leakback.

Greg.
01-16-2011, 07:59 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#29
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
Injectors are expesive - remap is cheap.
You buy expensive parts, which don´t work properly without remap.
But, just only remap gives more power and better work.

AMG injectors fits and works without remap - and smokes.
Cooler is from China.
About the rail-pressure - the higher, the better. In every ways.

I have some difficulties in my project now.
The front of the engine and car are too small and the pump is too big.
Part numbers are right, but vacuum-pump don´t seem to fit and there are also troubles with belt.

[Image: 15zli01.jpg]

[Image: 2n0ni3r.jpg]


Edit:
When I tighten the belt, I noticed that I can turn the pump into a better position, I am stupid.
Now, even the orig AMG line line from pump to railpipe fits.

[Image: 2r2tch3.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2011, 08:43 AM by tuikku.)
01-18-2011, 03:05 AM
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muuris Offline
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#30
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Tuikku, use electric vacuum pump. Nice job!
01-18-2011, 01:39 PM
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pdxgrease Offline
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#31
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
I would try contacting charles migliore (aka kerma tdi) about nozzles. He has a corner on high end nozzles with VAG tdi's in the states. He also has a lot of turbo options. Might be worth chatting him up about your application.

http://www.kermatdi.com/
01-19-2011, 12:45 PM
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Riverstick Offline
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#32
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Is that an AMG pump Tuikku?.....what pressure does it run at?
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
01-19-2011, 05:36 PM
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greg123 Offline
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#33
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
I have used nozzles off Kerma before, good people. Only problem is that I have bought here nozzles for £17 each which were about $90 each from Kerma, there is quite a markup on the cost from Bosio (the Italian Mfr's, Kerma is the main USA importer).

OE bosch for earlier DI run about £12 a nozzle, of course CR injectors are only just becoming affordable and there is little documented about them - but the nozzle part is similar.

Greg.

(01-19-2011, 12:45 PM)pdxgrease Wrote: I would try contacting charles migliore (aka kerma tdi) about nozzles. He has a corner on high end nozzles with VAG tdi's in the states. He also has a lot of turbo options. Might be worth chatting him up about your application.

http://www.kermatdi.com/


Quite, but you can't get 4x the flow with a remap. Install a fire hydrant in place of your kitchen tap and you can see the point on flow of larger nozzles. For efficieny, the fuel has to be put in the engine in the 'window' of efficiency. Or the fuel is still being put in when it should have been burnt (too long duration). So, up to a point higher rail pressure will force more fuel in but a) it shortens pump life b) it can potentially cause the diesel spray to hit the piston and reach the edge of the compressed air due to too fast entry speed which can cause smoke and localised overheating and c) if you are interested in economy, the more you ramp rail pressure the harder it is to drive the pump and the lower the efficiency (once you pass the point of good atomisation) and d) even higher rail pressure will eventually be unable to get the needed fuel in time.

It depends on the goal I guess. I run larger nozzles of good design with no map and have zero smoke and better torque and power than stock. Last week I sorted the custom turbo for a motor with .216injectors which can flow to 300bhp efficiently, these smoked at idle as the holes were so big they didn't atomise well I think. The vehicle ran around 200hp (enough in it's 1200kg body to be unable to stop wheel spin on part throttle till 3rd gear where it hooked up as hard mid range as a 280hp hybrid S3) so I think the injectors were too big for it's needs. But there is no way, even with remap, that stock can flow enough fuel for it's current performance.

On another note, been chatting with a guy about modding the CP3 pump. He said, first off, why? There are, it seems lots of CP3's capable of running 500hp stock on truck engines. So he said find one that fits and use that instead..... hey no more supply problems Big Grin

Cheers, Greg.

(01-18-2011, 03:05 AM)tuikku Wrote: .
Injectors are expesive - remap is cheap.
You buy expensive parts, which don´t work properly without remap.
But, just only remap gives more power and better work.

AMG injectors fits and works without remap - and smokes.
Cooler is from China.
About the rail-pressure - the higher, the better. In every ways.

I have some difficulties in my project now.
The front of the engine and car are too small and the pump is too big.
Part numbers are right, but vacuum-pump don´t seem to fit and there are also troubles with belt.

(This post was last modified: 01-19-2011, 07:27 PM by greg123.)
01-19-2011, 07:14 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#34
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
Greg, sorry to say, but to me, it seems, that you don´t understand a bit of cdi´s working principals.
Changing the part is one thing, the other is to make them really work properly, the third is, that how do you tell your new parts to program, so that it could possibly work right.
Just build one.
I have, ... and I have made a program to many more ... and repaired even more others programs.
The engine don´t work "accidenly" rigth, if you change a lot of parts.

Some progress in my 320cdi.
Allthough it don´t seems like it.
I just want to see, that everything fits, form both sides.
Still having belt - problem, not enough room to make me happy.
I do really hope, that I find a good sollution for that.

[Image: 2d6uq12.jpg]

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01-20-2011, 10:08 AM
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Riverstick Offline
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#35
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
What bar is that pump Tuikku?
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
01-20-2011, 01:15 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#36
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-20-2011, 01:15 PM)Riverstick Wrote: What bar is that pump Tuikku?

That is originally in OM628 V8 and AMG 3,0cdi´s pump.
There it is used 1350bar.
But it is CR3-pump, so it is capaple to higher pressures also.
Thats why I am putting it in my pjoject car.
Firs i´m going to use 1500bar, but later, with one bigger charger, or two ones, I´m going to try 1800bar to reach really the +400hp.

I have good experiences about AMG injectors and orig 1350bar railpressure.
I can easily get 60hp/cyl without smoke with those injectors.
So, in this moment I don´t need more than 1500bar for this turbo.
I´m learning this now in the same time, that I´m building this ... thing.

01-20-2011, 02:03 PM
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greg123 Offline
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#37
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Hmm, okay I'm curious why you think that. I have studied automotive engineering at university, qualified as a mechanic 18 years ago (the youngest in the country at the time I belive) and run a diesel specialist business, so I have a very vague idea at least....

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing on, I fully agree any changes to hardware you may are likely to require being accounted for in a new ECU map. So we agree yes?

As for rail pressure the higher the better, I can't agree. Or just run 20,000bar you soon find out why over a certain point higher isn't better... Even AMG agree, to get more performance they use larger holes rather than just higher rail pressure - but you know this because you use them. Same for VW, the high flow 150bhp injectos have bigger holes than the 105bhp, rather than running the 105bhp injectors at higher pressure or longer duration (it is possible to hit 150hp with stock 105bhp injectors/engine and just a remap, but it's not the efficient way of doing it and the factoy saw that and installed larger nozzles).

What I can agree is that higher rail pressure for a given duration (pulsewidth) and a given nozzle size (mg/s delivery rate) will get more fuel in there. So on a particular set of nozzles and tune, you can get a bit more fuel if you need it by raising rail pressure without having to resort to running overly long injection durations which are not good for power or economy as it's inefficient injecting fuel after a certain point ATDC. Miss the ideal window of injection and hp/mg injected drops off.

Looks like you already found a bigger pump then as I was talking about - great news. Let us know if it works out and if it can pump the volume you need okay! Your pioneering efforts and experiences with this engine are fantastic, theory is one thing but as you say you have built these CDi's and know what fits.

Cheers, Greg.


(01-20-2011, 10:08 AM)tuikku Wrote: .
Greg, sorry to say, but to me, it seems, that you don´t understand a bit of cdi´s working principals.

01-20-2011, 07:40 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#38
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
Allmost ready now.
Not much any more, hopefully I can try start mondey on tuesday.

[Image: 723dw7.jpg]

[Image: 2a7g2s0.jpg]

[Image: 10xvlsj.jpg]

[Image: 108ct4h.jpg]
01-22-2011, 01:28 PM
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majesty78 Offline
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#39
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
What solution did you find for your serpent belt problem then?

Regards, Alex
01-22-2011, 04:22 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#40
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-22-2011, 04:22 PM)majesty78 Wrote: What solution did you find for your serpent belt problem then?

Regards, Alex

I copied it from orig AMG

[Image: 2rng6eb.jpg]


Only injectors are missing any more.

[Image: euj1vc.jpg]
01-23-2011, 10:03 AM
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INC Offline
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#41
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Your car have EDC16 or EDC15 ecu?
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01-23-2011, 03:22 PM
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majesty78 Offline
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#42
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
I guess EDC15C6 ; -)
01-23-2011, 11:55 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#43
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-23-2011, 11:55 PM)majesty78 Wrote: I guess EDC15C6 ; -)

Yes
01-24-2011, 02:26 AM
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INC Offline
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#44
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
(01-24-2011, 02:26 AM)tuikku Wrote:
(01-23-2011, 11:55 PM)majesty78 Wrote: I guess EDC15C6 ; -)

Yes

Your old CR system works with high pressure control valve, this pump have fuel volume control valve. What valve you will use in your system?

G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
01-24-2011, 03:55 AM
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tuikku Offline
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#45
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
I´ll use orig controlling.

CR-3 system uses both, volume and pressure controlling, but the whole fuel system also work differently.
I´ll leave that valve as it is, full open.

I don´t yet know, if it works, or not.
Haven´t done this before.
01-24-2011, 07:27 AM
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Riverstick Offline
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#46
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Tuikku,

I was looking at the pump on a 2008 Sprinter 515 CDI today with the compound turbocharger setup. It looks very similar to your AMG pump.

Incidentally....his compound turbos keep blowing the intercooler apart regularly....and that is at factory settings at 150BHP
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
01-24-2011, 02:02 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#47
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
Yes, it is quite similar, but smaller.

Today I already drive a little.
Everything works.
Idling -> full throttle.
Injectors are still originals, ... waiting for bigger ones.

01-25-2011, 01:44 PM
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majesty78 Offline
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#48
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
Did you change anything in mapping yet?
01-25-2011, 01:55 PM
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tuikku Offline
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#49
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
.
Previous settings, little testing first.
If everything goes ok tomorrow, I´ll rise the railpressure to 1500bar.
And test more.
As quickly as I find a suitable 1600bar sensor to raildruck, I´ll rise the pressure to 1600bar.
It gives immediately more "free" power, better burning and lower EMP.
No sense to use lower pressures after this.
The pump is made and capable to 1600bar, thats why I done this job.
And if needed, I´ll use 1800bar, of which I allready have good experiences.
01-25-2011, 03:33 PM
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Riverstick Offline
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#50
RE: 400hp w210, om606 Turbo or 320cdi?
It'll be interesting to see how it drives at 1500bar and then 1600bar.....the lower EMP is really the key to unleashing the power in conjunction with better atomization.....it lets the engine 'breathe' more freely
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
01-25-2011, 04:47 PM
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