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Electronic variable vane control
winmutt Offline
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#1
Electronic variable vane control
Reading up on pump timing by millivolt method got me to this :

http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDuemilanove
[Image: Duemilanove350.jpg]

6 inputs with 4mV accuracy. Almost enough. 5 cylinders + Boost. And thats just the start. You could also get rack position with the 85 IP (picked up a spare recently)

And it has OUTS. I can only dream of controlling rack travel (it's doable) and vanes....

I am so buying one of these on pay day.
(This post was last modified: 09-04-2009, 08:21 AM by winmutt.)
01-08-2009, 05:47 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#2
RE: Electronic doodads
http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/HomePage

The have samples of graphing AND controlling servo units. *faint*

Good thing I have a spare busted laptop well suited for this.
01-08-2009, 06:13 PM
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Gross Polluter Offline
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#3
RE: Electronic doodads
At that point why not adapt a second VR sensor into the IP and code something similar to an RIV tool into the microcontroller? It would be much, much more accurate than the millivolt method for setting or checking pump timing. All you'd have to do is calculate RPM based on the crank sensor then use time differential between the crank pulse and IP pulse to calculate pump timing.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2009, 02:23 AM by Gross Polluter.)
01-09-2009, 02:22 AM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#4
RE: Electronic doodads
The cost and time of that would be better invested in an actual EGT monitoring/logging system.

The glowplug's arbitrary voltage generation shouldn't be used for anything but personal amusement or satisfying curiosity. Using them to tune the engine is a very bad idea since glowplugs are not sensors, they are heaters and subject to manufacturing tolerances (even in the same batch) that can cause misleading measurements.

Here are some examples of what to look for:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Altronics/758148/10002/-1
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/in...canner.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/in...ombos6.php

The last one is only $281 for a complete kit with probes that can read EGTs for up to 6 cylinders.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2009, 04:04 AM by ForcedInduction.)
01-09-2009, 04:03 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#5
RE: Electronic doodads
It would merely for curiosity, if nothing else it will indicate bad glowplugs. It will also indicate highest firing temp. The average of all 5 will indicate temperature differences, I just want to see what it looks like running. Rack position, boost, rpm, speed. These are all analog sensors in the car that I can pick up from. The samples of code include all kinds of things including servo control.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2009, 08:15 AM by winmutt.)
01-09-2009, 08:10 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#6
RE: Electronic doodads
I found this post which says you can get 1mV resolution with +-2mV resolution : http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB...5541/17#17
01-09-2009, 09:11 AM
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Gross Polluter Offline
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#7
RE: Electronic doodads
It would definitely be a good platform to start for developing standalone electronic VGT control.
01-09-2009, 09:41 AM
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GREASY_BEAST Offline
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#8
RE: Electronic doodads
I'll second what Forced said about GPs being bad sensors. As I recall, from reading threads when people were trying this with a voltmeter, the GP output not only was extremely variable plug-to-plug but also exhibited variability over time... meaning that even an average reading really won't tell you very much at all, except that there is, in fact, combustion in the cylinder. If I had one of those boards I would probably hook it up to a boost sensor, as well as the rack sensor, and use it for wastegate (and/or vane) control. Its also what the doctor ordered for a lpg system... LOL just the thought of putting a computer on these cars gives me the chills.. Anyone know a good source for 12V actuators?

BTW- just looked at the programming section of the website and it all looks very simple, and VERY powerful!!
01-09-2009, 10:54 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#9
RE: Electronic doodads
I looked at a variety of actuators. The problem was finding something capable of 20PSI. IIRC voice coil was the way to go. FI said that the cruise control servo was to slow but I wonder about that as the vac element I have is pretty slow to react.
01-09-2009, 11:05 AM
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GREASY_BEAST Offline
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#10
RE: Electronic doodads
Slow might be good because you might be able to avoid writing dampening into the software.
01-09-2009, 01:10 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#11
RE: Electronic doodads
Meh. Software is no biggie for me. From what I have seen I should be able to fly to the moon with this puppy. Right now I am concentrated on the o309d but this is something I am going to look into before I mount my turbo.
01-09-2009, 02:55 PM
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oel_brenner Offline
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#12
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-09-2009, 02:55 PM)winmutt Wrote: Meh. Software is no biggie for me.

LOL me too.. I have thinking about replacing whats left of the EDS
system on the SL300D project with a scratch-built system based on this type of controller to perform the same functions as EDS and leveraging the stock sensors, adding a few new ones, and having the ability for real-time analysis and the ability to tune parameters etc.. sorta a open source engine management system for diesels

maybe hook up with these guys
http://sourceforge.net/projects/freeems/
and branch their stuff

or look at the MegaSquirt code.. MSII has CAN-bus inputs.. OM606 anyone ? MS3 is out too..
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2009, 01:13 PM by oel_brenner.)
01-10-2009, 01:02 PM
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GREASY_BEAST Offline
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#13
RE: Electronic doodads
Wow.. free EMS.. thats cool. Common rail IDI anyone?
01-11-2009, 12:45 PM
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Telecommbrkr Offline
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#14
RE: Electronic doodads
This is cool. Ideas that I propsed a year ago, that the collective 'you' thought were crazy, are now being explored. This is a good thing. I love forums.
I cant wait to read your results with running systems.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling systemBig Grin.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@Angry Nitrile gloves back on......

'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!Cool ) Euro headlights

Mods are in the works...
01-11-2009, 10:37 PM
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tantank79 Offline
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#15
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-11-2009, 12:45 PM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: Wow.. free EMS.. thats cool. Common rail IDI anyone?

I've actually been thinking about this too. In the quest for more fuel, the injection pump is our problem, so why not just get rid of it? Get some injectors and rail from another vehicle (no idea which one) and a pressure pump (ie CP3), a crank signal and...? Then go to town programming. The only program I've seen the computer stuff for is Mega Squirt. That is extremely simplified but, it seems like this is doable.
-Brian

1983 300TD
1982 240D
1981 280TE
01-12-2009, 01:21 AM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#16
RE: Electronic doodads
Because no parts exist.

By the time you have a crude example that will barely idle, you'll have spent more than the cost of a CDI crate engine and ECM.
01-12-2009, 02:01 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#17
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-11-2009, 10:37 PM)Telecommbrkr Wrote: This is cool. Ideas that I propsed a year ago, that the collective 'you' thought were crazy, are now being explored. This is a good thing. I love forums.
I cant wait to read your results with running systems.

This was brought up some time ago. However at the time there was no easy to use *cheap* device like this one. I would *LOVE* to set my timing with this.
01-12-2009, 10:20 AM
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oel_brenner Offline
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#18
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-12-2009, 02:01 AM)ForcedInduction Wrote: By the time you have a crude example that will barely idle, you'll have spent more than the cost of a CDI crate engine and ECM.

have you looked at the code ?

to start and run a warm CDI engine would only use parts of either codebase
and would be fairly trivial to get running.

All you need for basic running is a crank sensor, throttle position,
very simple fuel curve.. done

add in reliable cold starting, turbo's, varying altitudes, O2 sensors, ambient temp, etc etc etc.. its starts to get more complicated. But I would bet I could have one running quite nicley in an afternoon of work.

Thats the great thing about software, very major and very minor changes take the exact amount of time to implement.. seconds.

all of this is assuming we have (or can get) the CAN-bus protocol specifics for the electronic OM606 pump, and related sensors. but even if we can't just sniff them off the bus and document it yourself.

for a test bed we would need a complete running OM606 car to gather this operational data. Then collect basic running CB data dumps, and model the new code after how MB does it. It would be really close to the factory setup and work as the baseline. Start tweaking from there.

I dont think you would spend much money at all, unless you actually paid yourself the going rate for this type of HW/SW development, and forced is right.. you could have not one, but a trainload of brand new crate motors.. but I dont think that is the point.



just my .02
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
01-12-2009, 07:56 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#19
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-12-2009, 07:56 PM)oel_brenner Wrote: all of this is assuming we have (or can get) the CAN-bus protocol specifics for the electronic OM606 pump, and related sensors. but even if we can't just sniff them off the bus and document it yourself.
If you moved the oil can you could control the rack with a voice coil. It wouldnt be easy by a far shot. With an '85 you can read rack position though. I was outside earlier this evening trying to figure out how the sensor works. Someone around here had a post of how it operated. Forced?


How many HP does that vac pump pull you think? Smile
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2009, 08:50 PM by winmutt.)
01-12-2009, 08:49 PM
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oel_brenner Offline
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#20
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-12-2009, 08:49 PM)winmutt Wrote:
(01-12-2009, 07:56 PM)oel_brenner Wrote: all of this is assuming we have (or can get) the CAN-bus protocol specifics for the electronic OM606 pump, and related sensors. but even if we can't just sniff them off the bus and document it yourself.
If you moved the oil can you could control the rack with a voice coil. It wouldnt be easy by a far shot. With an '85 you can read rack position though. I was outside earlier this evening trying to figure out how the sensor works. Someone around here had a post of how it operated. Forced?


How many HP does that vac pump pull you think? Smile


are you talking about retrofitting EMS onto a OM603 / OM61x
(non-electronic) engine ?

I was talking about running an already all electronic OM606 engine with a stand-alone open-source controller. Using CB comm protocols.
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
01-12-2009, 09:03 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#21
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-12-2009, 09:03 PM)oel_brenner Wrote:
(01-12-2009, 08:49 PM)winmutt Wrote:
(01-12-2009, 07:56 PM)oel_brenner Wrote: all of this is assuming we have (or can get) the CAN-bus protocol specifics for the electronic OM606 pump, and related sensors. but even if we can't just sniff them off the bus and document it yourself.
If you moved the oil can you could control the rack with a voice coil. It wouldnt be easy by a far shot. With an '85 you can read rack position though. I was outside earlier this evening trying to figure out how the sensor works. Someone around here had a post of how it operated. Forced?


How many HP does that vac pump pull you think? Smile


are you talking about retrofitting EMS onto a OM603 / OM61x
(non-electronic) engine ?

I was talking about running an already all electronic OM606 engine with a stand-alone open-source controller. Using CB comm protocols.

I don't think I will do it but the possibility is there. Does the OM606 control the rack electronically?
01-12-2009, 09:40 PM
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GREASY_BEAST Offline
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#22
RE: Electronic doodads
Yes, it would be really cool to set up electronic air and fuel management... but... with a mechanical pump, whats the point? I mean, other than being a cool technical challenge, and having a little more control over what happens and when, whats the gain? It certainly won't be very much more HP, or better burn characteristics because the real limitations in these respects are the injectors and the pump elements..

As far as the common rail is concerned, its a little more than just setting up the software... you have to have all the mechanical parts too and Forced is right, that would be extremely costly.

So maybe I'm missing something big, but seriously, what could possibly benefit from this setup?

EDIT: To clarify, precise control over throttle position is something you can more or less do with your foot. To me that doesn't seem very special. The benefit of electronically controlled diesel injection seems to be controlling number of injections per cycle, individual injection durations, delay timing between injections, injection volumes, pressures, etc etc etc as well as combustion environment (air), all tied together with inputs from the electronic sensory nervous system... None of these benefits can really happen without lots of expensive metal stuff. Or can they happen with cheaper metal stuff?
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2009, 03:11 PM by GREASY_BEAST.)
01-14-2009, 03:05 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#23
RE: Electronic doodads
My aim is two fold here. Accurate IP timing and vane control on ANY vnt/vgt for cheap. Controlling the IP is a lark, but I can at least get rack position.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
01-14-2009, 05:21 PM
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oel_brenner Offline
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#24
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-14-2009, 03:05 PM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: Yes, it would be really cool to set up electronic air and fuel management... but... with a mechanical pump, whats the point? I mean, other than being a cool technical challenge, and having a little more control over what happens and when, whats the gain? It certainly won't be very much more HP, or better burn characteristics because the real limitations in these respects are the injectors and the pump elements..

As far as the common rail is concerned, its a little more than just setting up the software... you have to have all the mechanical parts too and Forced is right, that would be extremely costly.

So maybe I'm missing something big, but seriously, what could possibly benefit from this setup?

EDIT: To clarify, precise control over throttle position is something you can more or less do with your foot. To me that doesn't seem very special. The benefit of electronically controlled diesel injection seems to be controlling number of injections per cycle, individual injection durations, delay timing between injections, injection volumes, pressures, etc etc etc as well as combustion environment (air), all tied together with inputs from the electronic sensory nervous system... None of these benefits can really happen without lots of expensive metal stuff. Or can they happen with cheaper metal stuff?

as far as my vision for EMS goes.. I would not want to change anything about the mechanical engines, they should stay mechanical.. use the EMS simply to help tune and refine. Use all the existing sensors, and maybe add new ones but it stays mechanical

for the all electronic engines (OM606 and the CDI engines), as I understand it, is getting access to software to change things to make more power is the difficult part.
thats where the open EMS comes into play. All the actuators, sensors, control devices etc are all CAN-bus so they all "talk" via a common protocol to the host processor. This host processor is the only part I would replace, and it would be open hardware, with open source software not unlike the MS stuff is now..
I don't think retrofitting CDI on an older engine would be worth the effort
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel

trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel

boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2009, 11:42 PM by oel_brenner.)
01-14-2009, 11:41 PM
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Gross Polluter Offline
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#25
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-14-2009, 11:41 PM)oel_brenner Wrote: not unlike the MS stuff is now..

You seem to know a lot about this, and the freems stuff. You have any MS'd projects or know someone who got caught up in the "issues" with recent MS firmware?
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2009, 02:00 AM by Gross Polluter.)
01-15-2009, 01:57 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#26
RE: Electronic doodads
Payday is always like a run on the bank......

Should be here next week. I can't wait!!!
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
01-15-2009, 10:06 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#27
RE: Electronic doodads
USPS rain sleet or snow. Or all three and on time. This thing is small, cigarette pack small. I need a housing, some leads and a USB cable. I think I have one of these kinds around somewhere....
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
01-20-2009, 10:29 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#28
RE: Electronic doodads
Cable found.


.jpg   01-20-09_2237.jpg (Size: 41.86 KB / Downloads: 818)
Ooooo pretty lights. I was able to use one of the sample apps to make the light blink and was able to control its rate.

.jpg   01-20-09_2311.jpg (Size: 52.16 KB / Downloads: 835)

After this I got my EGT probe, a lighter and a multi meter. Meter went from near 0 ohms to 20 under the flame.

Wasn't sure how to wire it but the good ppl at Arduino forums helped out.

http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB...32514612/0

I will find an appropriate resistor and go from there.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2009, 11:48 AM by winmutt.)
01-20-2009, 11:16 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#29
RE: Electronic doodads
So these are K type Thermocouplers I am almost certain of it. Even though I was getting a change in resistance it appears the K type thermocouplers generate micro voltages. I can't interface with the Arduino directly but I *can* get one of these (http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/Thermocouple_Sensor_1_0) and free up an analog port. I don't understand why I can't use it as a thermistor as it is providing a change in resistance
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2009, 07:36 PM by winmutt.)
01-21-2009, 02:55 PM
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cannonballSDL Offline
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#30
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-08-2009, 05:47 PM)winmutt Wrote: I am so buying one of these on pay day.

haha i have that same unit in my Volvo 242 ITB car, fits in the stock ECU boxWink.
[Image: img1231808006712-1.jpg][Image: img1231724701604-1-1.jpg][Image: img1231603208122.jpg]
01-25-2009, 04:02 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#31
RE: Electronic doodads
What are you doing with it? I ended up spending 12hrs on a 4 hrs job on Sat swapping my wifes steering box and didn't get a chance to futz around with this any more. The Arduino is not capable of reading the micro voltage that is produced by the K type thermocouple. The odd thing is that the thermo couple changes with resistance as well and I can't help but think this would be a better way to read it.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
01-26-2009, 10:37 AM
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Tymbrymi Offline
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#32
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-12-2009, 07:56 PM)oel_brenner Wrote: Thats the great thing about software, very major and very minor changes take the exact amount of time to implement.. seconds.

You haven't written a lot of software Wink Regardless, software beats the hell out of analog controls.
(01-09-2009, 11:05 AM)winmutt Wrote: I looked at a variety of actuators. The problem was finding something capable of 20PSI. IIRC voice coil was the way to go. FI said that the cruise control servo was to slow but I wonder about that as the vac element I have is pretty slow to react.

The electric one is FAST. We used it to control the throttle linkage of a military hummer (GM 6.5L) and it worked great. That sucker is STRONG too... it also has a nice handy electromagnet built in... so you can have a toggle switch to kill it if things go crazy (as they most certainly will).
(01-11-2009, 10:37 PM)Telecommbrkr Wrote: This is cool. Ideas that I propsed a year ago, that the collective 'you' thought were crazy, are now being explored. This is a good thing. I love forums.
I cant wait to read your results with running systems.

Hey now! I had a whole big writeup on this over at Schumans a while back. Wish I could print a PDF of the thread, but I am banned and can't access anything... Great minds think alike though Wink
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!! Angel
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way! Undecided
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2009, 02:00 PM by Tymbrymi.)
01-30-2009, 01:54 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#33
RE: Electronic doodads
This is certainly a rehash of discussions at schumans. To bad they are idgits.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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01-30-2009, 02:08 PM
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Tymbrymi Offline
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#34
RE: Electronic doodads
(01-30-2009, 02:08 PM)winmutt Wrote: To bad they are idgits.

You're in a generous mood today Angel
(01-21-2009, 02:55 PM)winmutt Wrote: So these are K type Thermocouplers I am almost certain of it. Even though I was getting a change in resistance it appears the K type thermocouplers generate micro voltages. I can't interface with the Arduino directly but I *can* get one of these (http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/Thermocouple_Sensor_1_0) and free up an analog port.

Forget those analog sensors (that board still sent an analog signal to your micro)... check out this one. Thermocouple straight to digital SPI/I2C serial bus.
http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/3149/t/al

You can get the PCB made for dirt cheap (no need for a 100+ board run for personal stuff) http://www.batchpcb.com/

Also check out the parent company of Batch PCB... http://www.sparkfun.com It's a really awesome site.

(01-21-2009, 02:55 PM)winmutt Wrote: I don't understand why I can't use it as a thermistor as it is providing a change in resistance

If it was providing a change in resistance you would apply a voltage and measure the voltage drop using a voltage divider. All you do with a thermocouple is measure the voltage. You don't actually apply any at all. The thermocouple actually generates its own voltage due to the contact with two different metals.
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!! Angel
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way! Undecided
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2009, 03:27 PM by Tymbrymi.)
01-30-2009, 02:47 PM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#35
RE: Electronic doodads
If you don't mind spending $3,900-$13,500 here is a control solution for you.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/...l/3690.htm
03-17-2009, 07:25 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#36
RE: Electronic doodads
6 cylinders or more Smile
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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03-17-2009, 07:41 PM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#37
RE: Electronic doodads
Up to 6 cyl.
03-17-2009, 07:44 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#38
RE: Electronic doodads
Where are my glasses.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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03-17-2009, 07:47 PM
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#39
RE: Electronic doodads
(03-17-2009, 07:25 PM)ForcedInduction Wrote: If you don't mind spending $3,900-$13,500 here is a control solution for you.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/...l/3690.htm
Won't work on our old mechanical injection diesels... Sad
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!! Angel
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way! Undecided
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
03-18-2009, 07:51 AM
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#40
RE: Electronic doodads
(03-18-2009, 07:51 AM)Tymbrymi Wrote: Won't work on our old mechanical injection diesels... Sad

The idea behind the thread started out as in-cylinder EGT monitoring, VGT and rack control then evolved into building a common-rail injection system.
03-18-2009, 07:59 AM
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#41
RE: Electronic doodads
(03-18-2009, 07:59 AM)ForcedInduction Wrote:
(03-18-2009, 07:51 AM)Tymbrymi Wrote: Won't work on our old mechanical injection diesels... Sad

The idea behind the thread started out as in-cylinder EGT monitoring, VGT and rack control then evolved into building a common-rail injection system.

And I'm still unclear as to what the point of doing either would be. I concede that either would be a really awesome project, and I would just love to have the level of control that a computerized, electronic common rail system would afford. However, I don't have 6 months and $30,000 so its not going to happen.

As far as the in-cylinder EGT is concerned... again, whats the point? Aside from being a cool project, I don't see how it can be particularly useful. Would it be used for fine-tuning each IP element? In that case, what you want is one thermocouple that plugs into the glowplug hole so you do each cylinder one-by-one, and there's no need for computerization, just use a voltmeter. Even so, this seems like a bad idea because the cylinder temperature is dependent on a hell of a lot more than just the IP settings, and should probably be expected to vary some in 250+kmile engines..

For simplicity, I could see the benefit of adding electronic rack control to an engine that was in a vehicle with a manual transmission for purposes of removing the vacuum system. This would allow for some fancy computer tricks like a loop that keeps the EGTs from getting too high ("limp mode?"), optimization for performance or economy with the flip of a switch, basically a variable ALDA on steroids. But would it really be that much better than the ALDA?
03-18-2009, 09:13 AM
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#42
RE: Electronic doodads
The point is to measure IP timing via the milivolt method. The other point was to control VNT/VGT turbos based on all of the analog inputs available. Its a tinkering project that I am not likely to get back to until summer at least.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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03-18-2009, 03:02 PM
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Tymbrymi Offline
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#43
RE: Electronic doodads
(03-18-2009, 09:13 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: For simplicity, I could see the benefit of adding electronic rack control to an engine that was in a vehicle with a manual transmission for purposes of removing the vacuum system. This would allow for some fancy computer tricks like a loop that keeps the EGTs from getting too high ("limp mode?"), optimization for performance or economy with the flip of a switch, basically a variable ALDA on steroids. But would it really be that much better than the ALDA?

Why not an automatic? Electronic rack control (like on the OM606) makes all kinds of sense... especially on a SuperTurbo. Right now the Finns have to limit low end torque so that the higher RPM torque doesn't break the crank. That is due to the limits of a mechanical IP governor. With an electronic rack you could load up the torque to the 400 lbft limit at a lower RPM, and continue to limit it throughout the RPM range. That'll give you a whole lot more power, and a dyno plot similar to the modern diesels.

Electronic VNT/VGT control is really the way to go... there are a whole lot of useful tricks you can't pull off with a mechanical controller.
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!! Angel
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way! Undecided
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
03-19-2009, 08:36 AM
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#44
RE: Electronic doodads
(03-19-2009, 08:36 AM)Tymbrymi Wrote: Why not an automatic?

I was thinking along the lines of allowing removal of the vac system, but I agree that electronic rack control would be ideal, just not worth the PITA of relocating the oil filter without a good reason (like a Myna pump), which it doesn't seem that anyone around here has.. Basically, and maybe I'm just being narrow-minded, I don't see how it could help appreciably on an IP with stock components, other than adding a certain level of engine protection, some more advanced smoke control, and other superfluous things that don't make the car go faster.

Quote:Electronic VNT/VGT control is really the way to go... there are a whole lot of useful tricks you can't pull off with a mechanical controller.

I'd agree with that, and go so far as to say even electronic wastegate control on a "normal" turbo might yield some benefits like quicker boost rise and more stable, accurate control over maximum boost, cruising vs performance settings, etc.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2009, 11:50 AM by GREASY_BEAST.)
03-19-2009, 11:45 AM
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#45
RE: Electronic doodads
Ok, I was thinking about electronic controls yesterday after re-reading this thread, and I have a question for you guys who know about this sort of thing.

Might it be possible, with an Arduino board and a voice coil actuator, to remove the mechanical governor and make governance of the engine an electronic affair? The software would be dead simple to write, I'm pretty sure with my limited experience I could do that in an afternoon, but the weak link (I guess) would be accurate sensing of the engine RPM?? Could one just use the tach sensor for this or would you need a more accurate reading? Another weak link might be the sensitivity of the actuator? The reason I'm interested in this is because it would vastly simplify things, and make the engine super-easy to tweak. Would it also reduce the cost of swapping elements? It seems to me that there would be a lot less "shop time" billed by an injection shop if all they had to do was make sure each element is synched to all the others, and not mess with the governor adjustments.

Just a brainstorm..
03-21-2009, 09:54 AM
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#46
RE: Electronic doodads
(03-19-2009, 11:45 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: I agree that electronic rack control would be ideal, just not worth the PITA of relocating the oil filter without a good reason (like a Myna pump), which it doesn't seem that anyone around here has.. Basically, and maybe I'm just being narrow-minded, I don't see how it could help appreciably on an IP with stock components, other than adding a certain level of engine protection, some more advanced smoke control, and other superfluous things that don't make the car go faster.

I don't think you'd have to relocate the oil filter housing... Personally, I'd use the IP off of an OM606, which has everything already taken care of. As a computer engineer I'm not exactly the best person to have fabricating things!

EDIT: With M-pump engines you would get more power if you use the OM606 pump. It has the larger 6mm elements instead of the 5.5mm in the older engines. It isn't going to get you 400HP, but will still be a nice improvement!

(03-19-2009, 11:45 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: I'd agree with that, and go so far as to say even electronic wastegate control on a "normal" turbo might yield some benefits like quicker boost rise and more stable, accurate control over maximum boost, cruising vs performance settings, etc.

Yep! A friend's '96 6.5L does all that you mention. At any kind of cruising it only uses the minimum boost necessary to burn the fuel, and, if you get into it, boost is there instantly! Cool

(03-21-2009, 09:54 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: Might it be possible, with an Arduino board and a voice coil actuator, to remove the mechanical governor and make governance of the engine an electronic affair?

That's what I would do on my 61x based engines, on the 60x based engines I would get the OM606 electronic pumps. It already has the rack control and *accurate position sensors*. Plus, we already know that it works. Smile On my 61x engines, I would like to remove the guts inside the governor, and directly link the external linkage arm to the rack. I would use the cruise control actuator to control that, with my software controlling the actuator. To those doubters about that actuator not being accurate or fast enough, I've used it as a throttle linkage actuator on a 6.5L Hummer, and it worked great. It is extremely powerful, fast, and accurate. Most importantly, it has an electromagnet that can be turned off and a spring will then return the external arm to its minimum position.

(03-21-2009, 09:54 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: The software would be dead simple to write, I'm pretty sure with my limited experience I could do that in an afternoon

No offense, but HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. ROTFLMA. Wink You could probably get something that would move the rack in an afternoon, but there is no way I'd put that on my engine! Also, keep in mind that all of these actuators will require additional power electronics to control them. Most microcontrollers can only output 20mA per pin, and actuators can require *significantly* more than that. Especially when you change positions very quickly!

(03-21-2009, 09:54 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: The weak link (I guess) would be accurate sensing of the engine RPM?? Could one just use the tach sensor for this or would you need a more accurate reading?

Totally use the tach signal! There are chips that will take the, IIRC, variable reluctance sensor and convert it to a digital signal for the micro. If it is already done, I'd just use that. No sense in re-inventing the wheel. Wink

(03-21-2009, 09:54 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: Another weak link might be the sensitivity of the actuator?

Bingo! Big Grin At idle the amount of fluctuation in the rack is very very small. Equally important is the accuracy of the rack position sensor. I believe the OM606 pump does not use a simple potentiometer for position feedback, but some kind of variable inductance sensor, which I would imagine is non-trivial to sense. There might be an integrated IC that would convert it, but I don't know for sure. The cruise control actuator does use a potentiometer though, so that one would be much easier to implement since you could directly hook the sensor up to the ADC on the micro.

(03-21-2009, 09:54 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: Would it also reduce the cost of swapping elements? It seems to me that there would be a lot less "shop time" billed by an injection shop if all they had to do was make sure each element is synched to all the others, and not mess with the governor adjustments.

Forced... stop reading now. Wink

For the OM61x pumps you could replace the elements yourself. The synchronization is mainly performed with the pump's camshaft, and the most important part of adjusting new elements is balancing the amount of fuel delivered. The MW pumps have external adjustments for that, and with large enough graduated cylinders you can tune those yourselves. Yes, I know Forced, it won't be 100% perfect, but I think we can get to 90-95%. We will always disagree on this...

With an M pump it's more difficult since the individual fuel quantity is controlled by shims accessible through the side plate. I would probably send that off to a shop.

Long story short, it should make things cheaper. I don't know how much cheaper, but every penny counts.

(03-21-2009, 09:54 AM)GREASY_BEAST Wrote: Just a brainstorm..

Yep, that's how cool things always happen Idea
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!! Angel
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way! Undecided
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2009, 08:06 AM by Tymbrymi.)
03-23-2009, 07:40 AM
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#47
RE: Electronic doodads
I've been working on electronic controls for months. I remember posting some stuff at various forums, but I'm getting really close to getting my electronic actuator working now. The electronic actuator that came with my turbo had its own computer on board, and I spent about 2 months trying to interface with it before I decided to scrap it and design my own, so now I'm bypassing all the electronics and directly controlling the motor with my board, using a throttle position sensor off another car to sense vane position. Should have a working prototype within a couple weeks. I already have sensor boards and a USB interface built, so after I get the motor control system done, it'll be time to program the actual controller system...
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...

1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in Sad | Retired to garage.

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
03-23-2009, 10:10 AM
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#48
RE: Electronic doodads
(03-23-2009, 07:40 AM)Tymbrymi Wrote: No offense, but HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. ROTFLMA. Wink You could probably get something that would move the rack in an afternoon, but there is no way I'd put that on my engine! Also, keep in mind that all of these actuators will require additional power electronics to control them. Most microcontrollers can only output 20mA per pin, and actuators can require *significantly* more than that. Especially when you change positions very quickly!

.....

Forced... stop reading now. Wink

For the OM61x pumps you could replace the elements yourself. The synchronization is mainly performed with the pump's camshaft, and the most important part of adjusting new elements is balancing the amount of fuel delivered. The MW pumps have external adjustments for that, and with large enough graduated cylinders you can tune those yourselves. Yes, I know Forced, it won't be 100% perfect, but I think we can get to 90-95%. We will always disagree on this...

Yeah, so I was a little arrogant/foolish about the software... but its no space shuttle either. Basically it all comes from tach sensor input, EGT input, boost input, rack position input, fuel pedal input, and spits out electrons to the actuator controls. The "actuator controls" consists of a relay or set of relays that can handle the current the actuator needs (or if you have electronic turbo controls, actuators plural).

The software is a great big loop that sniffs for all these inputs and does things based on what it smells. Granted, its no afternoon project, but I still think it won't be terrible.

It would be nice to also have ambient temperature input and engine temperature input as well to be able to do some cold start programming and additional engine protection. However, transforming the signals into a form that the board can interface with seems like the major challenge. Around May I'll have a 617 on an engine stand. I have a couple cruise servos kicking around. I'll have a board of some sort. Let the games begin.

Oh, and BTW the MW IP for that engine is kaput so it will need new (larger) elements, thereby granting a means to test your theory about shadetree IP calibration Big Grin

I don't expect results for YEARS.

EDIT: That's cool to hear that you are making progress 300SD81!! Definitely inspiring.
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2009, 10:43 AM by GREASY_BEAST.)
03-23-2009, 10:41 AM
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#49
RE: Electronic doodads
If you plan on using the board for EGT, might I suggest the MAX6675 (http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/3149 ) I'm using it for my EGT probe and its alot more accurate than using the microcontroller's AD inputs. Your board has a Atmel ATmega168, which I believe has a SPI interface to connect to the chip.


The MPX4250GP from Freescale Semiconductor makes a great boost gauge too. Its rated to I think, 45psi, and outputs as a 0-5v analog voltage.


As for my turbo project, I just finalized the design for the vane actuator circuit. I'm using a dsPIC33 microcontroller and H-bridge chip to drive the VNT's actuator motor directly, bypassing the built in computer. Position feedback will be provided by a throttle position sensor (potentiometer) connected to one of the analog inputs. Everything is controlled over an I2C bus by the turbo computer (at this time, its a laptop with a USB I2C interface, but will eventually be a PIC32 micro). I initially wanted to use CAN bus but I don't have any equipment capable of debugging it easily.

VNT Actuator Board:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2223/vntboard.jpg


Edit: looks like someone already suggested the maxim part before me.. as for circuit boards, the classic laser printer toner transfer method has worked for me for years now. 10 mil traces and 0.5mm pitch parts are possible if your good.
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...

1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in Sad | Retired to garage.

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2009, 07:07 PM by 300SD81.)
03-23-2009, 06:45 PM
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#50
RE: Electronic doodads
Why don't you make me one and drop it off next time you come home Smile

Re boost sensor, there already is a sensor on the manifold.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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03-24-2009, 10:08 AM
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