Max HP from HX35 / HX40?
Max HP from HX35 / HX40?
necessary. I am thinking that with a tuned pump and an HX35, it should be fine. I imagine in the future I will rebuild a transmission with 722.6 components to handle
torque, or just for good measure. What I'm curious about is what an HX35 will do without the extra fuel froma modified pump.
jonbobshinigin
04-24-2010, 07:44 PM #51My goals are 250-300 HP, with moderate smoke if
necessary. I am thinking that with a tuned pump and an HX35, it should be fine. I imagine in the future I will rebuild a transmission with 722.6 components to handle
torque, or just for good measure. What I'm curious about is what an HX35 will do without the extra fuel froma modified pump.
(04-24-2010, 07:44 PM)jonbobshinigin My goals are 250-300 HP, with moderate smoke if
necessary. I am thinking that with a tuned pump and an HX35, it should be fine. I imagine in the future I will rebuild a transmission with 722.6 components to handle
torque, or just for good measure. What I'm curious about is what an HX35 will do without the extra fuel froma modified pump.
Without the extra fuel a turbo won't produce much boost. Turbos feed of exhaust heat so not much fuel means not much heat and not much boost.
(04-24-2010, 07:44 PM)jonbobshinigin My goals are 250-300 HP, with moderate smoke if
necessary. I am thinking that with a tuned pump and an HX35, it should be fine. I imagine in the future I will rebuild a transmission with 722.6 components to handle
torque, or just for good measure. What I'm curious about is what an HX35 will do without the extra fuel froma modified pump.
Without the extra fuel a turbo won't produce much boost. Turbos feed of exhaust heat so not much fuel means not much heat and not much boost.
Even though the pump has been set for excessive smoke, you can always press the pedal only a bit in everyday driving, so it won't smoke. Then you'll have some power in "reserve". But I agree this sucks, and I don't want my car to smoke like that. Mine has been set so that if I floor it on low speeds (urban driving), it will smoke a bit too much before boost builds. But on bigger roads/highway, flooring it at 2000rpm only produces some smoke (you can just see it in the rear view mirror) for a second. Still have to modify LDA a bit to get this right.
If you have future plans for pump, then HX30 is nice choice. But if one was going to stick with stock pump, then I wouldn't understand the hunt for lower EGTs etc. It works nicely (stock) as it came from the factory.
Even though the pump has been set for excessive smoke, you can always press the pedal only a bit in everyday driving, so it won't smoke. Then you'll have some power in "reserve". But I agree this sucks, and I don't want my car to smoke like that. Mine has been set so that if I floor it on low speeds (urban driving), it will smoke a bit too much before boost builds. But on bigger roads/highway, flooring it at 2000rpm only produces some smoke (you can just see it in the rear view mirror) for a second. Still have to modify LDA a bit to get this right.
(04-24-2010, 03:01 PM)muuris Where does the increased efficiency show in practice when one puts a HX30 to a stock 617 (other than between the driver's ears)?In fuel economy and power to the ground.
Quote:And how do you have capacity to increase power without modifying the pump?Pumping and thermal efficiency.
Quote:Don't count the few dozen hp you can get by altering the pump settings alone.Just the 18hp I got switching the K26 to a GT2256V.
Quote:As for increasing power without modifying the pump, it can't be done without pump mods.I disagree with that. As shown below, power can be gained across the RPM range with just a better turbo and no alteration to fueling.
Quote:One needs both.Ah, so everyone might as well dump $3000 into the engine all at once instead of getting it one component at a time and learning how each affects the engine?
(04-24-2010, 08:01 PM)Kiwibacon Turbos feed of exhaust heat so not much fuel means not much heat and not much boost.Actually, turbos work off exhaust volume and velocity (momentum). Heat only aids the efficiency of the two.
Quote:Even though the pump has been set for excessive smoke, you can always press the pedal only a bit in everyday driving, so it won't smoke.But then you have little more power than a naturally aspirated engine because you've got no boost.
ForcedInduction
04-25-2010, 06:55 AM
#54
(04-24-2010, 03:01 PM)muuris Where does the increased efficiency show in practice when one puts a HX30 to a stock 617 (other than between the driver's ears)?In fuel economy and power to the ground.
Quote:And how do you have capacity to increase power without modifying the pump?Pumping and thermal efficiency.
Quote:Don't count the few dozen hp you can get by altering the pump settings alone.Just the 18hp I got switching the K26 to a GT2256V.
Quote:As for increasing power without modifying the pump, it can't be done without pump mods.I disagree with that. As shown below, power can be gained across the RPM range with just a better turbo and no alteration to fueling.
Quote:One needs both.Ah, so everyone might as well dump $3000 into the engine all at once instead of getting it one component at a time and learning how each affects the engine?
(04-24-2010, 08:01 PM)Kiwibacon Turbos feed of exhaust heat so not much fuel means not much heat and not much boost.Actually, turbos work off exhaust volume and velocity (momentum). Heat only aids the efficiency of the two.
Quote:Even though the pump has been set for excessive smoke, you can always press the pedal only a bit in everyday driving, so it won't smoke.But then you have little more power than a naturally aspirated engine because you've got no boost.
(04-25-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInduction Just the 18hp I got switching the K26 to a GT2256V.Didn't believe that original K26 was THAT bad.
(04-25-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInduction Ah, so everyone might as well dump $3000 into the engine all at once instead of getting it one component at a time and learning how each affects the engine?Who said anything about thousands of $? Just pointed out that a bigger turbo needs modified pump if really want performance gains. I also said it's ok to change bigger turbo if future plans include pump upgrade, but there's no point changing to bigger if no pump mods are planned. VNT are different, but not many here are willing to put one in their cars.
(04-25-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInductionNope, boost will build as it would if pump had been tuned to "smoke limit", although driving that way and constantly monitoring rear view mirror is frustrating. Tried that, didn't like.Quote:Even though the pump has been set for excessive smoke, you can always press the pedal only a bit in everyday driving, so it won't smoke.But then you have little more power than a naturally aspirated engine because you've got no boost.
(04-25-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInduction Just the 18hp I got switching the K26 to a GT2256V.Didn't believe that original K26 was THAT bad.
(04-25-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInduction Ah, so everyone might as well dump $3000 into the engine all at once instead of getting it one component at a time and learning how each affects the engine?Who said anything about thousands of $? Just pointed out that a bigger turbo needs modified pump if really want performance gains. I also said it's ok to change bigger turbo if future plans include pump upgrade, but there's no point changing to bigger if no pump mods are planned. VNT are different, but not many here are willing to put one in their cars.
(04-25-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInductionNope, boost will build as it would if pump had been tuned to "smoke limit", although driving that way and constantly monitoring rear view mirror is frustrating. Tried that, didn't like.Quote:Even though the pump has been set for excessive smoke, you can always press the pedal only a bit in everyday driving, so it won't smoke.But then you have little more power than a naturally aspirated engine because you've got no boost.
(04-25-2010, 09:39 AM)muuris Nope, boost will build as it would if pump had been tuned to "smoke limit", although driving that way and constantly monitoring rear view mirror is frustrating. Tried that, didn't like.
Then if the turbo spools up that well, why make is smoke in the first place?
ForcedInduction
04-25-2010, 09:44 AM
#56
(04-25-2010, 09:39 AM)muuris Nope, boost will build as it would if pump had been tuned to "smoke limit", although driving that way and constantly monitoring rear view mirror is frustrating. Tried that, didn't like.
Then if the turbo spools up that well, why make is smoke in the first place?
I want to add for everyone who keeps mentioning that I need a modified pump if I am going to put a larger turbo on my car...I KNOW. As Forced said...there is not a problem to put the turbo on before fuel and seeing what it does first. That way we all aren't "guessing". That said, I don't expect 100hp from throwing on a larger turbo.
Here is an example of what I'd like to hear:
"I believe that adding an HX35 and a euro(w140) manifold will cause the car to be a bit more sluggish off of the line. You would likely see low boost until the higher Rpms and even then you may never reach full boost. Your egts should stay about the same but you should definitely add an intercooler before you install a modified pump."
That is what I am lookng for answer wise...what I wrote however is simply me hypothesizing with very little knowledge of these things.
Thanks for all the input so far, it has been very valueable! Please keep it up and remember, we all have something to learn and how is say something is often just as important as what you say!
jonbobshinigin
04-25-2010, 01:27 PM #57So putting a Euro manifold and HX35 on my car will not do anything for me until I get more fuel. From what I am reading, the HX35 will not spool up to full boost because a larger turbo requires more power for it to spool. Is this the case? If so than a Euro manifold and HX35 will make my car slower UNTIL I add more fuel via modified pump?
I want to add for everyone who keeps mentioning that I need a modified pump if I am going to put a larger turbo on my car...I KNOW. As Forced said...there is not a problem to put the turbo on before fuel and seeing what it does first. That way we all aren't "guessing". That said, I don't expect 100hp from throwing on a larger turbo.
Here is an example of what I'd like to hear:
"I believe that adding an HX35 and a euro(w140) manifold will cause the car to be a bit more sluggish off of the line. You would likely see low boost until the higher Rpms and even then you may never reach full boost. Your egts should stay about the same but you should definitely add an intercooler before you install a modified pump."
That is what I am lookng for answer wise...what I wrote however is simply me hypothesizing with very little knowledge of these things.
Thanks for all the input so far, it has been very valueable! Please keep it up and remember, we all have something to learn and how is say something is often just as important as what you say!
jonbobshinigin
04-25-2010, 06:12 PM #59Ok...I don't know how to map out what the HX35 will do. It is beyond my abilities. Would someone like to summarize the process for me?
(04-25-2010, 05:02 PM)GREASY_BEAST Another way to see Kiwibacon's point, which is nothing, is to look at the shape of the turbine wheel. It is clearly made to utilize the expansion of the exhaust gasses through the turbine. Hot gasses expand more violently than cold ones because they have more "internal energy".
Thanks for reinforcing my point that heat is not doing the actual work.
ForcedInduction
04-25-2010, 08:20 PM
#60
(04-25-2010, 05:02 PM)GREASY_BEAST Another way to see Kiwibacon's point, which is nothing, is to look at the shape of the turbine wheel. It is clearly made to utilize the expansion of the exhaust gasses through the turbine. Hot gasses expand more violently than cold ones because they have more "internal energy".
Thanks for reinforcing my point that heat is not doing the actual work.
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