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Vogtlands
bgkast Offline
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#1
Vogtlands
OK, I just bought a set. :mrgreen:

Any tips for installing them? What else should I replace when I am putting them in?
1979 240D- 'Sporty 240', 313K miles - GT2260V turbo, 4 speed manual with shorty knob, Air/Water Aftercooler, Many other Mods.

1982 300SD - 232 K miles - 'Big Black'

1986 F-250 4x4 6.9 Diesel, 150K miles - No turbo kit......Yet!

http://www.kastdiesel.com OBK #13
05-02-2008, 02:33 PM
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ForcedInduction Offline
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#2
Re: Vogtlands
New pads couldn't hurt and upgrading to the metal sway bar links is easy while youre there.
05-02-2008, 04:12 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#3
Re: Vogtlands
3 bumps in the rear 1 in the front. Pretty easy to do once you get the hang of it. I would replace the LCA bearing, strut rod LCA bearing as well. Those are the only things that require the compressor.

DO NOT USE A AIR GUN ON THE COMPRESSOR. DOOOOOIIIINNGNGNNGNGNGNGNNG.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
05-02-2008, 04:55 PM
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bgkast Offline
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#4
Re: Vogtlands
Thanks.

I don't have an air gun anyway...
1979 240D- 'Sporty 240', 313K miles - GT2260V turbo, 4 speed manual with shorty knob, Air/Water Aftercooler, Many other Mods.

1982 300SD - 232 K miles - 'Big Black'

1986 F-250 4x4 6.9 Diesel, 150K miles - No turbo kit......Yet!

http://www.kastdiesel.com OBK #13
05-02-2008, 06:07 PM
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Telecommbrkr Offline
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#5
Re: Vogtlands
Vogtlands, I assume these are springs?? The strut rod is what controls anti-sway in the front susp?? If so, how does one 'turn it up' to increase stiffness for the front end?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling systemBig Grin.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@Angry Nitrile gloves back on......

'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!Cool ) Euro headlights

Mods are in the works...
05-10-2008, 11:50 AM
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GREASY_BEAST Offline
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#6
Re: Vogtlands
Telecommbrkr Wrote:Vogtlands, I assume these are springs?? The strut rod is what controls anti-sway in the front susp?? If so, how does one 'turn it up' to increase stiffness for the front end?

Understeer is the problem at hand, I believe, not oversteer.
05-10-2008, 12:23 PM
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Telecommbrkr Offline
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#7
Re: Vogtlands
What I'm wanting to do is reduce body-roll during high speed cornering. Stiffen up the suspension, and lower it a bit for better cornering while at hwy speeds.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling systemBig Grin.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@Angry Nitrile gloves back on......

'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!Cool ) Euro headlights

Mods are in the works...
05-11-2008, 03:02 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#8
Re: Vogtlands
Telecommbrkr Wrote:What I'm wanting to do is reduce body-roll during high speed cornering. Stiffen up the suspension, and lower it a bit for better cornering while at hwy speeds.
TD sway bar in the front and 15mm sway bar in the rear.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
05-12-2008, 12:52 PM
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MTUPower Offline
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#9
Re: Vogtlands
I put the front Vogtlands on my wagon (1984) and love the results. My wagon was sitting very high previously however- and my wife's all stock wagon (1982) sits even lower. It's all stock except for the front springs- which came off a non turbo w123D. Previously her car drove like a bus- wondering all over the road, especially on a two lane highway. My wagon had and still has the one nubs on the front.
2005 CDI with removable Kleeman tuning box /// 1984 300TD - Myna pump/A-A intercooler/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
05-13-2008, 08:28 PM
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bgkast Offline
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#10
Re: Vogtlands
What compressor did you guys use? I've got somebody who will loan me a knock off of a Klann, but from what I have read it probably will not fit down the W123 spring pearch.
1979 240D- 'Sporty 240', 313K miles - GT2260V turbo, 4 speed manual with shorty knob, Air/Water Aftercooler, Many other Mods.

1982 300SD - 232 K miles - 'Big Black'

1986 F-250 4x4 6.9 Diesel, 150K miles - No turbo kit......Yet!

http://www.kastdiesel.com OBK #13
05-30-2008, 03:00 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#11
Re: Vogtlands
bgkast Wrote:What compressor did you guys use? I've got somebody who will loan me a knock off of a Klann, but from what I have read it probably will not fit down the W123 spring pearch.
Just take a grinder to the hole. Klann knockoff works fine. Did you get the LCA stuff?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
05-30-2008, 09:17 AM
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bgkast Offline
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#12
Re: Vogtlands
How much grinding is needed? I don't have the LCA bushings or guide-rod mounts yet, but I will be ordering soon. How long does the spring-swap take?
1979 240D- 'Sporty 240', 313K miles - GT2260V turbo, 4 speed manual with shorty knob, Air/Water Aftercooler, Many other Mods.

1982 300SD - 232 K miles - 'Big Black'

1986 F-250 4x4 6.9 Diesel, 150K miles - No turbo kit......Yet!

http://www.kastdiesel.com OBK #13
05-30-2008, 11:01 AM
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winmutt Offline
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#13
Re: Vogtlands
bgkast Wrote:How much grinding is needed? I don't have the LCA bushings or guide-rod mounts yet, but I will be ordering soon. How long does the spring-swap take?
1/8" or less. It "almost" fits.

Plan a full day or more if you do it by yourself. I recommend having someone on hand to help. Hell getting over the fear of the spring compressor takes long enough. I suggest doing the rears first.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
05-30-2008, 12:45 PM
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GREASY_BEAST Offline
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#14
Re: Vogtlands
A round file will work fine for the hole, basically all you have to do is take off the paint.. it does almost fit. The spring compressor is scary, but just make sure the plates are seated where they are supposed to be and it will hold.. that being said, treat it like an armed bomb.
05-31-2008, 06:43 AM
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bgkast Offline
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#15
Re: Vogtlands
winmutt Wrote:3 bumps in the rear 1 in the front. Pretty easy to do once you get the hang of it. I would replace the LCA bearing, strut rod LCA bearing as well. Those are the only things that require the compressor.


Are these the parts?

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://catalog.worldpac.com/mercedesshop/sophio/wizard.jsp?partner=mercedesshop&clientid=catalog.mercedesshop&baseurl=http://catalog.mercedesshop.com/&cookieid=2CP0XKLP92DU15A3KN&year=1979&make=MB&model=240-D-002&category=All&part=Control+Arm+Bushing+Kit">http://catalog.worldpac.com/mercedessho ... ushing+Kit</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://catalog.worldpac.com/mercedesshop/sophio/wizard.jsp?partner=mercedesshop&clientid=catalog.mercedesshop&baseurl=http://catalog.mercedesshop.com/&cookieid=2CP0XKLP92DU15K1L3&year=1979&make=MB&model=240-D-002&category=All&part=Guide+Rod+Mount">http://catalog.worldpac.com/mercedessho ... +Rod+Mount</a><!-- m -->
1979 240D- 'Sporty 240', 313K miles - GT2260V turbo, 4 speed manual with shorty knob, Air/Water Aftercooler, Many other Mods.

1982 300SD - 232 K miles - 'Big Black'

1986 F-250 4x4 6.9 Diesel, 150K miles - No turbo kit......Yet!

http://www.kastdiesel.com OBK #13
06-02-2008, 06:24 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#16
Re: Vogtlands
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=4mkp3455heol5d55fkaqmyfb&makeid=800016@Mercedes&modelid=1193790@300DT&year=1985&cid=27@Suspension%20System&gid=7533@Control%20Arm%20Bushing%20Kit">http://www.autohausaz.com/search/produc ... hing%20Kit</a><!-- m -->

Lower two.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
06-02-2008, 06:34 PM
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Telecommbrkr Offline
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#17
RE: Vogtlands
Where are you guys getting these springs? I have searched the Vogtland website and their catalouge does not even register W123 or W126 chassis for applications. Not in production any more?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling systemBig Grin.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@Angry Nitrile gloves back on......

'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!Cool ) Euro headlights

Mods are in the works...
06-09-2009, 08:38 PM
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SurfRodder Offline
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#18
RE: Vogtlands
it was a group buy on mshop last year sometime.. I got mine from a dude who bought em back then... if you post in the wanted section theres a chance there are still a few sets to be had...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** AN braided hoses/lines almost everywhere ** powder coated valve cover ** manual climate control ** better stereo ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **

S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **

OBK# 62
06-09-2009, 10:54 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#19
RE: Vogtlands
You will want to use the 3 piece LCA bearing replacement (from 126) and LCA strut rod bushing while you are in there.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
06-10-2009, 06:55 AM
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CID Vicious Offline
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#20
RE: Vogtlands
For those considering Vogtlands or other springs, but whose wallet seems as infested with moths as mine:

From Benzworld, NuR-Spec says:
"back to the deal with vogtlands. with my VW, being a GTI model, it was already pretty low. the vogtlands lowered it 2.5" since they were the "race" springs. as for a sport spring from vogtland, you may only have a 1" drop in the center of gravity, but being that they are progressive gives you the benefit of a comfortable ride, long travel, and the massive reduction in body roll.

"however, i cut 3 coils off my front springs, maintained perfect travel, great ride quality, NO body roll, dramatically lowered the center of gravity, gained downforce, and the best part, put the roll center EXACTLY where it needs to be. people always have a negative stigma to chopping coils, but that's because you only see the negative aspects from the uneducated people who "take a whack" at it. many professional level race teams do cut coils. being that a W123 has exactly 13.5 coils from the factory, it is way oversprung to give sloshy good ride quality. to unleash it's performance aspects and have ride quality from a typical factory sports car, your only a cut away. as for the hondas and thier bouce, it's due to the bumpstops. hondas sacraficed travel, to accomidate a more compact double wishbone macpherson setup for clearance issues. by lowering an EG (92-95') civic by 2" your leaving it with about an inch of travel. obviously it will constanlty bounce off the bumpstops."

"first off, make sure to cut coils off the BOTTOM of the spring. i have yet to do any geometry investigations on the rear suspension, but the front will gain a perfect performance setup by cutting 3 coils. if your looking to get in the grey area, then 1.5-2 coils is ideal. especially if you plan to use larger diameter wheels."

On shocks with cut springs:
"i would strongly advise you to use HDs with any lower ride height. reason being that the damper will be preloaded using a facotry length damper. this is not ideal due to excessive wear and improper function. using an HD bilstein will counteract the preload with a higher rate valving. this is a compramise to using a shorter stroke damper, but still very functional. for optimal suspension performance, you would need to use a shorter bodied damper from another application which bboy and i have been investigating extensively and may have possibly found a solution. using a facotory length damper will only reduce travel and destroy it by being under constant load, however, my factory struts still show no signs of wear or reduced handling capabilites."

A bit of 'backup' from someone more familiar with Mr. NuR-Spec: "first of all i will say if there are any mod pros, NuR is probably it. No one has gone much farther than this with the exception of the germans previously mentioned."

If you're on a budget, it's hardly more work to cut your stock springs than it is to swap them out for aftermarket, and the 300 bones could go for shocks instead. I'm waiting for the right time and a spring compressor to fall into hand, or it'd already be done.

Full discussion here: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w123-e-c...p-buy.html
06-10-2009, 02:23 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#21
RE: Vogtlands
*cough* pretty sure I am the one that told him how many coils to cut.

Cutting coils is a half assed approach unless you are starting with the 17mm springs. Even then its just guess work. With the right springs you have numbers on stiffness etc.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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(This post was last modified: 06-10-2009, 03:08 PM by winmutt.)
06-10-2009, 03:06 PM
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CID Vicious Offline
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#22
RE: Vogtlands
He actually, in that thread or another, basically put his cut stock spring side by side with the Vogtlands, and it was a similar drop and number of coils. The 123 has the right setup to make cutting coils viable - a lower cup design that doesn't require a pigtailed spring end and plenty of both spring and travel to work with. There's a whole dissertation in that thread somewhere about the way a coil spring works, and if you'll notice, stiff 'race' or 'sport' springs typically have fewer coils than the stock models they're designed to replace.

I'm not saying that Vogtlands don't end up being a better spring, or deny your contention that you told him how many coils to cut (how could I, wasn't there), but in one of the few cars around where this is a legit way to lower and stiffen a car, I think it should be on the table as an option to ponder. If I had to pay 300+ for the springs and then again for the shocks, my car will likely stay the same ride height/stiffness forever, as will a lot of people for whom spending what might be a week's wage to some on something that, frankly, no one needs, isn't a realistic option.

Nur-Spec seems to have the respect of quite a few over at Benzworld, from what I can gather, and he seems happy with the results. As one who hasn't done this yet I'm not able to comment on the end result, but he has and he does.

FYI I'm one of those guys who, if I had a die grinder, would rather spend hours and hours porting a set of SBC heads rather than just pony up for a $1000+ set of good heads. Partly because for that money (half of it, lots of times) I could buy a whole, barely used complete 350 with a list of speed parts, running. Partly because I have more hours than money to spend. Partly because while I love cars 'speed mods' are about useless as far as my overall quality of life goes and because there are other things crying out for my investment. And I know that I have company.

However when I had money in the bank my SE-R got a set of fully adjustable pillow ball-mount coilovers with heim jointed end links for the rear sway bar. I had popped a spring, needed shocks anyway, and I had the money, so why not. I agree that the Vogtlands are a more known quantity, especially because there are people out there who really shouldn't change their own oil, much less start cutting springs, on their car, because they don't have the skill. And I don't know if I'd trust Joe Shop to do it for me unless I was there with the directions supervising, which ain't gonna happen with most shops.

Ultimately it's up to the car's owner to decide what gets done and what doesn't, I just want people to know that there's an alternative, if you wish to travel down that road (with cut springs.)
06-10-2009, 06:39 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#23
RE: Vogtlands
(06-10-2009, 06:39 PM)CID Vicious Wrote: He actually, in that thread or another, basically put his cut stock spring side by side with the Vogtlands, and it was a similar drop and number of coils. The 123 has the right setup to make cutting coils viable - a lower cup design that doesn't require a pigtailed spring end and plenty of both spring and travel to work with. There's a whole dissertation in that thread somewhere about the way a coil spring works, and if you'll notice, stiff 'race' or 'sport' springs typically have fewer coils than the stock models they're designed to replace.
The vogtlands are stiffer/thicker. I have cut coils on a variety of stock springs and even tool 1/2 coil off the vogtlands. All of the stock springs just ended up to mooshy. In many states it is illegal to cut springs.

If I was broke I'd take two coils off and call it a day. Just make sure you use a cutting wheel (not torch) and quench frequently in oil.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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06-10-2009, 10:52 PM
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CID Vicious Offline
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#24
RE: Vogtlands
Eh, illegal shmillegal. I've driven over 11k miles on the US Interstate Highway System with, shall we say, less than a license, a fact I've grown to be rather proud of. Wink

Besides, take some Krylon (pick any color you want but Red is faster Big Grin) clean up your worked end, use generous primer to fill in imperfections and now they're 'aftermarket'. Do the same with gloss black and they'll look new and stock. (This trick is often used in 'stock class' auto-X, even recommended by Mike Kojima).

The thing I love about these cars is how...old man they look. I thought Volvos were invisible to the cops. Just driving a Civic gives a cop all kinds of associative reasons to pull you over just to fuck around and see if he gets lucky, since hood rats, white trash, ricers and just plain speed freaks all love those cars. That's one of the reasons I want to eventually go with a 350 in a parts D. Paint it gloss white and keep the exhaust quiet (the one real bummer, since the best part about V8 power is that sound - I'll have to add some cutouts or something), and they (being the cops or that unsuspecting douche in the Mustang) won't know anything, and they wouldn't have any reason to expect to. These cars would take 5, 10 years to get recognized as a potential 'hot rod' by the public at large, even if their popularity amongst modders skyrocketed today.

Dudley do-rights can take the fact that cutting springs is illegal in some places into consideration (though it should be pointed out), the rest can take comfort in the fact that my cousin's been driving around in a carbed 5.0l Mustang with no cats, a cage and Drag-lites, cowl hood, the whole nine, registered as a four-cylinder (and insured as one!), driven daily for years. In 2013 he can register it as a classic and it won't need a smog check. And Mustang owners get pulled over all the time, for just-cuz. Anyone with a stockish 123 is never, ever, ever going to get the fine tooth comb treatment, and really won't matter if you do if you paint the springs to look like new stock ones.
06-10-2009, 11:29 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#25
RE: Vogtlands
I was just pointing it out. You know like saying plugging your EGR is illegal in all 50 states and PR. Didn't keep me from doing it.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
06-11-2009, 08:48 AM
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CID Vicious Offline
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#26
RE: Vogtlands
(06-11-2009, 08:48 AM)winmutt Wrote: I was just pointing it out. You know like saying plugging your EGR is illegal in all 50 states and PR. Didn't keep me from doing it.

Yeah, your're right, it needs to be pointed out, and y'know, it's not outside of the bounds of experience to hear of some guy going and 'tossing away all of that useless nonsense' attached to the motor in his car, then moves to Kalifornia and now it won't pass inspection and he can't give the car away. It's worth covering the bases.

I'm actually kind of a 'hot rod kill-joy', I'm the guy who goes, 'well, if you're going to do that to your car, it could bite you in the ass this way or that'. And people need to know the pitfalls or they'll go and just do something that they're going to regret. Level-headedness is a hard thing to keep about oneself when dealing with the automotive enthusiast affliction, which is why a forum like this can be invaluable. You get that 'tinkering spirit' going and someone just kind of places a hand on your shoulder and whispers in your ear 'the factory engineers were far from idiots'.
06-11-2009, 02:20 PM
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winmutt Offline
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#27
RE: Vogtlands
(06-11-2009, 02:20 PM)CID Vicious Wrote: And people need to know the pitfalls or they'll go and just do something that they're going to regret.


The pit is only as deep as your wallet heh.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
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06-11-2009, 02:53 PM
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