Help Me "Build" a 617 for my 'Mog! - Questions
Help Me "Build" a 617 for my 'Mog! - Questions
I've been working on a Unimog 404 for a while now, I want to start having a look at the engine. It has an OM617A conversion, but I can't leave well enough alone.
I want to do some mild tuning to this engine. For those who live under a rock, the Unimog has a very small engine compartment, is heavy (7000lbs) and is geared like a tractor.
Background: The truck comes stock with an 85hp, 80ft.lbs M180 2.2L gas engine. The truck is slow...very slow. But the engine is a happy little engine, 5500rpm redline. You have to beat the snot out of it to get anywhere, but it never complains. At any given time the truck is going to be turning a lot of RPM's, but I don't want to sacrifice any low down torque for pulling etc. Also, for any modifications, if it can't operate underwater, I DONT WANT IT.
Not looking to make a million hp time bomb, but rather make the power a little more useable, and perhaps bump up the power just a bit.Some questions:
1.) What is the redline on a 617A?
2.) (Don't know how 617's respond to different turbos, basing knowledge off other diesel knowlege) Are there any aftermarket turbos which are more efficient than stock, but aren't any much larger, and are as simple (ie: no VGT/VNT)
3.) Where are you guys placing your EGT sensors for best results?
4.) Am I right in assuming that a removed rack limiter provides more fuel than a 'fully adjusted' rack limiter could provide?
5.) Does anyone have a dyno sheet from a stock 617 so I can see what the power curve is like?
Planned Modifications:
1.) W115 Intake Manifold (Provided I can squeeze it in)
2.) ALDA Removal
3.) Rack Limiter Adjustment - Not going to remove. Just adjust.
EDIT: 4.) Exhaust will be 3" Straight all the way out.
Possible Modifications
1.) Intercooler IF I can find a place for it...not much room under the hood.
4.) Possible Mild torque control adjustment
Any answers/advice/suggestions etc would be much appreciated! Thanks!
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
Hey Guys,
I've been working on a Unimog 404 for a while now, I want to start having a look at the engine. It has an OM617A conversion, but I can't leave well enough alone.
I want to do some mild tuning to this engine. For those who live under a rock, the Unimog has a very small engine compartment, is heavy (7000lbs) and is geared like a tractor.
Background: The truck comes stock with an 85hp, 80ft.lbs M180 2.2L gas engine. The truck is slow...very slow. But the engine is a happy little engine, 5500rpm redline. You have to beat the snot out of it to get anywhere, but it never complains. At any given time the truck is going to be turning a lot of RPM's, but I don't want to sacrifice any low down torque for pulling etc. Also, for any modifications, if it can't operate underwater, I DONT WANT IT. Not looking to make a million hp time bomb, but rather make the power a little more useable, and perhaps bump up the power just a bit.
Some questions:
1.) What is the redline on a 617A?
2.) (Don't know how 617's respond to different turbos, basing knowledge off other diesel knowlege) Are there any aftermarket turbos which are more efficient than stock, but aren't any much larger, and are as simple (ie: no VGT/VNT)
3.) Where are you guys placing your EGT sensors for best results?
4.) Am I right in assuming that a removed rack limiter provides more fuel than a 'fully adjusted' rack limiter could provide?
5.) Does anyone have a dyno sheet from a stock 617 so I can see what the power curve is like?
Planned Modifications:
1.) W115 Intake Manifold (Provided I can squeeze it in)
2.) ALDA Removal
3.) Rack Limiter Adjustment - Not going to remove. Just adjust.
EDIT: 4.) Exhaust will be 3" Straight all the way out.
Possible Modifications
1.) Intercooler IF I can find a place for it...not much room under the hood.
4.) Possible Mild torque control adjustment
Any answers/advice/suggestions etc would be much appreciated! Thanks!
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
I believe the red line on the 617 is 5000. My 404 turns 4250 @ 60 MPH and I've often thought of trying to lower this but the stock gas engine just doesn't have the umph...
Here's my long considered opinion:
The 404 tranny stinks. It has sleeve bearings that will burn out if you put too much power through it at high speeds. I would keep the 617 stock or at most, install a VNT and turn up the fuel until you're putting out at most 130HP or so. This is a HUGE increase over stock and would go far to improve performance.
One way you can improve tranny life is to go with all synthetic oils. Some people also install auxiliary circulating pumps with small radiators for extra cooling.
As for the EGT probe, the most common spot is in the pipe leading into the turbo.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
What is the designation of the UNIMOG? Does it have the 404.0 style cab or 404.1? (Just out of curiosity)
I believe the red line on the 617 is 5000. My 404 turns 4250 @ 60 MPH and I've often thought of trying to lower this but the stock gas engine just doesn't have the umph...
Here's my long considered opinion:
The 404 tranny stinks. It has sleeve bearings that will burn out if you put too much power through it at high speeds. I would keep the 617 stock or at most, install a VNT and turn up the fuel until you're putting out at most 130HP or so. This is a HUGE increase over stock and would go far to improve performance.
One way you can improve tranny life is to go with all synthetic oils. Some people also install auxiliary circulating pumps with small radiators for extra cooling.
As for the EGT probe, the most common spot is in the pipe leading into the turbo.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
(02-08-2010, 09:31 AM)E300TSC What is the designation of the UNIMOG? Does it have the 404.0 style cab or 404.1? (Just out of curiosity)
I believe the red line on the 617 is 5000. My 404 turns 4250 @ 60 MPH and I've often thought of trying to lower this but the stock gas engine just doesn't have the umph...
Here's my long considered opinion:
The 404 tranny stinks. It has sleeve bearings that will burn out if you put too much power through it at high speeds. I would keep the 617 stock or at most, install a VNT and turn up the fuel until you're putting out at most 130HP or so. This is a HUGE increase over stock and would go far to improve performance.
One way you can improve tranny life is to go with all synthetic oils. Some people also install auxiliary circulating pumps with small radiators for extra cooling.
As for the EGT probe, the most common spot is in the pipe leading into the turbo.
Its a 404.1.
The transmission is definitely a weak link, but I am running 14.5R20 tires to keep the RPM's down, and an auxiliary oil cooler for the transmission as well. I also run Redline MT-90 synthetic oil. Its also a brand new unit...so it should last a while.
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
(02-08-2010, 09:31 AM)E300TSC What is the designation of the UNIMOG? Does it have the 404.0 style cab or 404.1? (Just out of curiosity)
I believe the red line on the 617 is 5000. My 404 turns 4250 @ 60 MPH and I've often thought of trying to lower this but the stock gas engine just doesn't have the umph...
Here's my long considered opinion:
The 404 tranny stinks. It has sleeve bearings that will burn out if you put too much power through it at high speeds. I would keep the 617 stock or at most, install a VNT and turn up the fuel until you're putting out at most 130HP or so. This is a HUGE increase over stock and would go far to improve performance.
One way you can improve tranny life is to go with all synthetic oils. Some people also install auxiliary circulating pumps with small radiators for extra cooling.
As for the EGT probe, the most common spot is in the pipe leading into the turbo.
Its a 404.1.
The transmission is definitely a weak link, but I am running 14.5R20 tires to keep the RPM's down, and an auxiliary oil cooler for the transmission as well. I also run Redline MT-90 synthetic oil. Its also a brand new unit...so it should last a while.
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
Need new ones and don't have access to them to check sizes. Anyone have suggestions as to what my best source would be?
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
Anyone know the specs of the turbo flange studs...things?
Need new ones and don't have access to them to check sizes. Anyone have suggestions as to what my best source would be?
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
(02-17-2010, 05:53 PM)ForcedInduction Standard M10x1.5mm.
Length? Any idea?
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
But the hole goes significantly deeper if you can't find an exact match.
ForcedInduction
02-17-2010, 06:03 PM
#7
13mm underside, 25mm topside
But the hole goes significantly deeper if you can't find an exact match.
(02-17-2010, 06:03 PM)ForcedInduction 13mm underside, 25mm topside
Huh...thought they were the same. Its hard when I don't have anything to look at.
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
(02-17-2010, 06:03 PM)ForcedInduction 13mm underside, 25mm topside
Huh...thought they were the same. Its hard when I don't have anything to look at.
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
For future reference, the studs are 10x1.5 not 10x1.0.
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
Few questions...
1.) What is anyone doing for the oil feed line to the turbo with the new intake manifold?
2.) I am searching for a new airbox for the truck (The factory oil bath is obviously inadequate), anyone know how many CFM the 617A needs?
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
Hey Guys,
Few questions...
1.) What is anyone doing for the oil feed line to the turbo with the new intake manifold?
2.) I am searching for a new airbox for the truck (The factory oil bath is obviously inadequate), anyone know how many CFM the 617A needs?
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
1) I did a new stainless steel tube the first time. Second and for the future I go for a stainless steel flex hose with PTFE liner and custom fittings also stainless. It is good for 180 deg C and 320 bar. The prototype came from a hydraulic shop, now I am waiting for an offer of the complete hose from a brake hose shop. Cost was 60 EUR for the prototype, the brake hose shop might be around 30-40 EUR.
2) Personally I'd go for the oil bath type. If one is not enough take 2 of them with a Y-joint. Redundancy, no filter element and these are pretty small. For off road the oil bath might have advantages.
(just my thoughts)
Tom
(05-15-2010, 09:51 PM)SixSpeed Hey Guys,
Few questions...
1.) What is anyone doing for the oil feed line to the turbo with the new intake manifold?
2.) I am searching for a new airbox for the truck (The factory oil bath is obviously inadequate), anyone know how many CFM the 617A needs?
Hi,
1) I did a new stainless steel tube the first time. Second and for the future I go for a stainless steel flex hose with PTFE liner and custom fittings also stainless. It is good for 180 deg C and 320 bar. The prototype came from a hydraulic shop, now I am waiting for an offer of the complete hose from a brake hose shop. Cost was 60 EUR for the prototype, the brake hose shop might be around 30-40 EUR.
2) Personally I'd go for the oil bath type. If one is not enough take 2 of them with a Y-joint. Redundancy, no filter element and these are pretty small. For off road the oil bath might have advantages.
(just my thoughts)
Tom
(05-15-2010, 09:51 PM)SixSpeed Hey Guys,
Few questions...
1.) What is anyone doing for the oil feed line to the turbo with the new intake manifold?
2.) I am searching for a new airbox for the truck (The factory oil bath is obviously inadequate), anyone know how many CFM the 617A needs?
(05-15-2010, 09:51 PM)SixSpeed .....
2.) I am searching for a new airbox for the truck (The factory oil bath is obviously inadequate), anyone know how many CFM the 617A needs?
The Federal air filter for a 617.5x is rated at 450 CFMs.
I have a few '85 "Cali" filter boxes that may work. PM me if interested.
But the filters themselves are on the pricey side.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
05-16-2010, 04:39 PM #13(05-15-2010, 09:51 PM)SixSpeed .....
2.) I am searching for a new airbox for the truck (The factory oil bath is obviously inadequate), anyone know how many CFM the 617A needs?
The Federal air filter for a 617.5x is rated at 450 CFMs.
I have a few '85 "Cali" filter boxes that may work. PM me if interested.
But the filters themselves are on the pricey side.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
(05-16-2010, 04:39 PM)DeliveryValve The Federal air filter for a 617.5x is rated at 450 CFMs.
I have a few '85 "Cali" filter boxes that may work. PM me if interested.
But the filters themselves are on the pricey side.
.
Perfect, 450 was just what I was thinking.
YGPM.
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
(05-16-2010, 04:39 PM)DeliveryValve The Federal air filter for a 617.5x is rated at 450 CFMs.
I have a few '85 "Cali" filter boxes that may work. PM me if interested.
But the filters themselves are on the pricey side.
.
Perfect, 450 was just what I was thinking.
YGPM.
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
I have some questions about injectors. My engine only has a couple thousand miles on it (was a brand new unit from Mercedes). It did sit outside for a few years (not my doing!), and IIRC a few of the soft fuel lines on the injectors were not connected. Admittedly I don't know anyting about injectors, but I was going to try to find a local shop to clean them/test them. What nozzles did the 617A's come with from the factory? Are there any upgraded nozzles that wont affect ow end torque (240/261)?
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
Also,
I have some questions about injectors. My engine only has a couple thousand miles on it (was a brand new unit from Mercedes). It did sit outside for a few years (not my doing!), and IIRC a few of the soft fuel lines on the injectors were not connected. Admittedly I don't know anyting about injectors, but I was going to try to find a local shop to clean them/test them. What nozzles did the 617A's come with from the factory? Are there any upgraded nozzles that wont affect ow end torque (240/261)?
-Jack Miles : Tampa : Florida :
1963 Unimog 404 TLF-8 - OM617.951 Powered / 8-Speed / Doka Hardcab
Mercedes L1116 L1319
Gassers - '63 'Mog, '65 'Mog / '86 190e 2.3-16 / '87 190e 2.3-16 / '90 190e 2.6/5
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