the fly-by-wire "throttle" project thread
the fly-by-wire "throttle" project thread
I'm starting this thread to document my attempt at creating a fully fly-by-wire "throttle" setup.
I'll edit this post to maintain it as a summary of the project.
engine: OM617
turbo: garret GT2256V, electronic vane actuator
major system components:
- accelerator pedal with TPS (throttle position sensor)
- electronic turbo vane actuator
- servo controlled injection pump rack
- servo controlled kickdown lever
inputs:
- TPS
- boost pressure, temperature
- rpm
outputs:
- rack position
- vane position
Just a couple comments:
You might also want to add rack position and vane position to the feedback data. You can add subroutines to analyze and compare the requested rack and vane position to the actual position and set "codes" if they are out of sync.
As far as the force feedback is concerned, it should not be needed if the fuel curve is designed properly to add fuel based on boost and the turbo vane operation is properly designed to provide linear boost.
The acceleration delay is a side effect of a compromise in the design of the induction system.
As for the rest of the parts, you should able to eliminate the alda and the governor and hard link the electronic servo to the rack.
(01-14-2010, 07:42 PM)E300TSC You might also want to add rack position and vane position to the feedback data. You can add subroutines to analyze and compare the requested rack and vane position to the actual position and set "codes" if they are out of sync.
(01-14-2010, 07:42 PM)E300TSC As far as the force feedback is concerned, it should not be needed if the fuel curve is designed properly to add fuel based on boost and the turbo vane operation is properly designed to provide linear boost.
(01-14-2010, 07:42 PM)E300TSC As for the rest of the parts, you should able to eliminate the alda and the governor and hard link the electronic servo to the rack.
(01-14-2010, 07:42 PM)E300TSC You might also want to add rack position and vane position to the feedback data. You can add subroutines to analyze and compare the requested rack and vane position to the actual position and set "codes" if they are out of sync.
(01-14-2010, 07:42 PM)E300TSC As far as the force feedback is concerned, it should not be needed if the fuel curve is designed properly to add fuel based on boost and the turbo vane operation is properly designed to provide linear boost.
(01-14-2010, 07:42 PM)E300TSC As for the rest of the parts, you should able to eliminate the alda and the governor and hard link the electronic servo to the rack.
whats the advantage to this over stock linkages? I think Toyota just recalled all of there fly by wire car to be retrofired back to cable
I had the cruise control system fail on my 1982 300cd and set WOT while I was in traffic not FUN
I shortly removed all of it!
The advantage is that you can remove the mechanical governor and have much more control over how much fuel goes in and when it goes in. Also, you have boost, road speed and therefore transmission gear (if you have an electronic speedometer), rack position, and EGT inputs into your electronic governor which allows very precise control over the engine's performance.
Picture it this way: maxed out TC, but no return to idle issues, maxed out ALDA but no smoking, instantaneous high-rpm cut out at whichever rpm you choose, no gradual loss of power in the top end due to governor slowly cutting fuel. If you have a VNT, it is now very easy to tune electronically, if you have a standard wastegate turbo you can hook up an actuator to the wastegate lever and have very much better boost response and control. The list goes on.
(01-15-2010, 01:41 PM)willbhere4u whats the advantage to this over stock linkages? I think Toyota just recalled all of there fly by wire car to be retrofired back to cable
I had the cruise control system fail on my 1982 300cd and set WOT while I was in traffic not FUN
I shortly removed all of it!
(01-15-2010, 01:41 PM)willbhere4u whats the advantage to this over stock linkages? I think Toyota just recalled all of there fly by wire car to be retrofired back to cable
I had the cruise control system fail on my 1982 300cd and set WOT while I was in traffic not FUN
I shortly removed all of it!
Thats basically the same reason I'm doing my system. I hate working on newer cars because I can't get into any of the computer systems.. But I have no issues putting my own computer controls into an older car..
How fast do you plan on running your I2C? I had a couple boards running over I2C before switching to ethernet because I got errors at higher data rates/longer cables.
Issues I had:
CAN: Difficulty debugging without expensive scope
I2C: Errors with high speed and long cables
SPI: Limited number of nodes + speed/cable issues
Ethernet: Complex board routing
You can also have "sport mode" and "efficient mode" with the flip of a switch. This would make the car very amenable to the addition of big IP elements, and would make the operation less expensive because the injection shop would not have to do any governor tuning, just balancing the elements to eachother.
(01-14-2010, 03:10 PM)cell for most efficient operation, you'd want to set the turbo vane position to produce the minimum boost required to keep load below 100%.
Quote:...force-feedback system...
(01-15-2010, 01:54 PM)GREASY_BEAST Picture it this way: maxed out TC, but no return to idle issues, maxed out ALDA but no smoking, instantaneous high-rpm cut out at whichever rpm you choose, no gradual loss of power in the top end due to governor slowly cutting fuel.
(01-15-2010, 04:48 PM)GREASY_BEAST You can also have "sport mode" and "efficient mode" with the flip of a switch.
(01-15-2010, 03:58 PM)300SD81 Issues I had:
CAN: Difficulty debugging without expensive scope
I2C: Errors with high speed and long cables
SPI: Limited number of nodes + speed/cable issues
Ethernet: Complex board routing
I like the project and I hope you can get it going! I've been wanting to do this for years, and I've never been able to kick myself into actually working on it.
I would NOT use your standard RC servo for this. What happens if you lose 12V power? The rack position is now stuck wherever it was, and you have to figure out some way to turn off the engine without wrecking, over-revving, etc. Servo's are definitely easy to come by and control, and I think even I could mount one to the IP rack. However, for safety's sake please use a solenoid or something that has a failsafe. Maybe adding a plate or something to completely shut off airflow to the engine would work. Be sure to test it with the mechanical pump though I'm going to need something like this for my 606 electronic pump as well. At first it is going to be a 2x6" manually put in front of the turbo.
(01-14-2010, 03:10 PM)cell for most efficient operation, you'd want to set the turbo vane position to produce the minimum boost required to keep load below 100%.
Quote:...force-feedback system...
(01-15-2010, 01:54 PM)GREASY_BEAST Picture it this way: maxed out TC, but no return to idle issues, maxed out ALDA but no smoking, instantaneous high-rpm cut out at whichever rpm you choose, no gradual loss of power in the top end due to governor slowly cutting fuel.
(01-15-2010, 04:48 PM)GREASY_BEAST You can also have "sport mode" and "efficient mode" with the flip of a switch.
(01-15-2010, 03:58 PM)300SD81 Issues I had:
CAN: Difficulty debugging without expensive scope
I2C: Errors with high speed and long cables
SPI: Limited number of nodes + speed/cable issues
Ethernet: Complex board routing
I guess what I meant by "efficient" mode was more along the lines of "smoke limiting", and with a VNT "restriction limiting".. It would be nice to integrate all these electronics into the transmission as well.. I guess you could rig up an actuator to pull on the bowden cable and integrate the kickdown servo. That would truly "modernize" the old W123. Having a little more control over downshifts would improve the performance characteristics of these cars significantly.
Picture this: W123 or W126 + 617 with big elements and modern controls, VNT, etc. Heavy sound insulation. Seats and interior parts from a late-model Benz. Modern, refined, yet classic. I've seen similar things done to a MKI Rabbit, but the effect would be far more pronounced in these cars.
In any case I'll just shut up now because I don't have the time or money to put into this stuff at the moment (although I really want to). Good luck guys, can't wait to see what comes out of this!
(01-15-2010, 03:58 PM)300SD81 How fast do you plan on running your I2C? I had a couple boards running over I2C before switching to ethernet because I got errors at higher data rates/longer cables.
Issues I had:
CAN: Difficulty debugging without expensive scope
I2C: Errors with high speed and long cables
SPI: Limited number of nodes + speed/cable issues
Ethernet: Complex board routing
(01-15-2010, 04:48 PM)GREASY_BEAST You can also have "sport mode" and "efficient mode" with the flip of a switch. This would make the car very amenable to the addition of big IP elements, and would make the operation less expensive because the injection shop would not have to do any governor tuning, just balancing the elements to eachother.
(01-15-2010, 03:58 PM)300SD81 How fast do you plan on running your I2C? I had a couple boards running over I2C before switching to ethernet because I got errors at higher data rates/longer cables.
Issues I had:
CAN: Difficulty debugging without expensive scope
I2C: Errors with high speed and long cables
SPI: Limited number of nodes + speed/cable issues
Ethernet: Complex board routing
(01-15-2010, 04:48 PM)GREASY_BEAST You can also have "sport mode" and "efficient mode" with the flip of a switch. This would make the car very amenable to the addition of big IP elements, and would make the operation less expensive because the injection shop would not have to do any governor tuning, just balancing the elements to eachother.
Man if you can tell me what I am doing wrong with the PWM control of the hell actuator I will get on my knees. Without bitbanging it.....
BTW load is easy to figure out and no one mentions it here.... O2 sensor!
Personally I would not want to do rack control but since I am sure have read the Hella thread then you know what I am looking for.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi I would NOT use your standard RC servo for this. What happens if you lose 12V power? The rack position is now stuck wherever it was, and you have to figure out some way to turn off the engine without wrecking, over-revving, etc. Servo's are definitely easy to come by and control, and I think even I could mount one to the IP rack. However, for safety's sake please use a solenoid or something that has a failsafe. Maybe adding a plate or something to completely shut off airflow to the engine would work. Be sure to test it with the mechanical pump though I'm going to need something like this for my 606 electronic pump as well. At first it is going to be a 2x6" manually put in front of the turbo.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi Yes!!! A lot of people don't figure that out and think that more boost is always better.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi No offense, but I think that's pretty silly. By no means am I trying to discourage you, but I personally want to just mash the pedal to the floor and let the ECU figure out what the engine can do. If nothing else, one less thing to distract me during an evasive maneuver or something.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi engines I think they adjust timing, etc. to improve economy, but that isn't something we can pull off.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi I would use CAN and only CAN. There isn't any way to debug it electrically with a scope by any reasonable means; however, using a pre-built CAN interface will remove the basic electrical problems. After that you just have to make sure your sending the properly formatted message. The first time it will be a *huge* PITA, but after that you'll be fine. It is designed to work in automotive environments, and there is a reason it was developed as you've found out!
I think I2C and SPI will definitely have problems with wire length.
(01-15-2010, 05:42 PM)GREASY_BEAST It would be nice to integrate all these electronics into the transmission as well.. I guess you could rig up an actuator to pull on the bowden cable and integrate the kickdown servo. That would truly "modernize" the old W123. Having a little more control over downshifts would improve the performance characteristics of these cars significantly.
(01-15-2010, 06:01 PM)winmutt BTW load is easy to figure out and no one mentions it here.... O2 sensor!
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi I would NOT use your standard RC servo for this. What happens if you lose 12V power? The rack position is now stuck wherever it was, and you have to figure out some way to turn off the engine without wrecking, over-revving, etc. Servo's are definitely easy to come by and control, and I think even I could mount one to the IP rack. However, for safety's sake please use a solenoid or something that has a failsafe. Maybe adding a plate or something to completely shut off airflow to the engine would work. Be sure to test it with the mechanical pump though I'm going to need something like this for my 606 electronic pump as well. At first it is going to be a 2x6" manually put in front of the turbo.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi Yes!!! A lot of people don't figure that out and think that more boost is always better.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi No offense, but I think that's pretty silly. By no means am I trying to discourage you, but I personally want to just mash the pedal to the floor and let the ECU figure out what the engine can do. If nothing else, one less thing to distract me during an evasive maneuver or something.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi engines I think they adjust timing, etc. to improve economy, but that isn't something we can pull off.
(01-15-2010, 05:15 PM)Tymbrymi I would use CAN and only CAN. There isn't any way to debug it electrically with a scope by any reasonable means; however, using a pre-built CAN interface will remove the basic electrical problems. After that you just have to make sure your sending the properly formatted message. The first time it will be a *huge* PITA, but after that you'll be fine. It is designed to work in automotive environments, and there is a reason it was developed as you've found out!
I think I2C and SPI will definitely have problems with wire length.
(01-15-2010, 05:42 PM)GREASY_BEAST It would be nice to integrate all these electronics into the transmission as well.. I guess you could rig up an actuator to pull on the bowden cable and integrate the kickdown servo. That would truly "modernize" the old W123. Having a little more control over downshifts would improve the performance characteristics of these cars significantly.
(01-15-2010, 06:01 PM)winmutt BTW load is easy to figure out and no one mentions it here.... O2 sensor!
(01-15-2010, 06:02 PM)cell I'll have to read more about CAN. One thing I remember seeing is that there are atmel chips which have CAN capabilities as a hardware peripheral. So it might turn out to be pretty easy to make a CANduino variant.
There is already a guy who is working on making a variant of the arduino environment for some of the smaller chips (ie, the attiny series), so if we decide to go the CAN route we can probably leverage his work to see what needs to be changed.
here's atmel's selection of CAN compatible chips:
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/device...d=607#1609
looks like almost of dozen of them, some of them with more flash and ram than the chips in the arduino's.
(01-15-2010, 06:02 PM)cell I'll have to read more about CAN. One thing I remember seeing is that there are atmel chips which have CAN capabilities as a hardware peripheral. So it might turn out to be pretty easy to make a CANduino variant.
There is already a guy who is working on making a variant of the arduino environment for some of the smaller chips (ie, the attiny series), so if we decide to go the CAN route we can probably leverage his work to see what needs to be changed.
here's atmel's selection of CAN compatible chips:
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/device...d=607#1609
looks like almost of dozen of them, some of them with more flash and ram than the chips in the arduino's.
I thought of a couple more things to toss out there:
You should add what Ford calls an IVS or idle validation switch. This switch is active when the throttle pedal is released to activate the idle speed regulating subroutine (governor).
You may also want to have a brake switch and a clutch switch (if so equipped) to develop a cruise control subroutine.
(01-15-2010, 08:36 PM)E300TSC I thought of a couple more things to toss out there:
You should add what Ford calls an IVS or idle validation switch. This switch is active when the throttle pedal is released to activate the idle speed regulating subroutine (governor).
You may also want to have a brake switch and a clutch switch (if so equipped) to develop a cruise control subroutine.
(01-15-2010, 08:36 PM)E300TSC I thought of a couple more things to toss out there:
You should add what Ford calls an IVS or idle validation switch. This switch is active when the throttle pedal is released to activate the idle speed regulating subroutine (governor).
You may also want to have a brake switch and a clutch switch (if so equipped) to develop a cruise control subroutine.
On the late model Toyota's I worked on there was a back up throttle cable that did not inter fear in the flyby wire deal unless it failed it would actuate the throttle %20 at full throttle so if it failed you could still drive like a limp mode
got another i2c demo coded up. this one is an i2c master which generates a test pattern (a sawtooth) and sends it to an i2c slave gauge.
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKYJDkni5U4
code, etc: http://jason.pepas.com/wiki/index.php?ti...orAndGauge
the next step is to make it a three member exchange -- have the i2c master request data from an i2c slave sensor and then send the data to an i2c slave gauge.
the next step after that is to send the data to a servo instead of a gauge, and to replace the sensor with a pot (ie, a TPS).
I'm on a roll! Man, I am really starting to like this arduino development environment. Its so quick to go from idea to reality.
I've now have a three part i2c network -- sensor, orchestrator, and gauge.
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gK2eJJHS-U
code, etc: http://jason.pepas.com/wiki/index.php?ti...sorNetwork
next step is to replace the gauge with a servo.
(01-14-2010, 03:10 PM)cell I'll define 100% load as the point at which the amount of fuel being injected entirely consumes the available air (ie, past this point you make black smoke). so the load has to be calculated on the fly, based on rpm, boost pressure and temperature, and rack position.
for most efficient operation, you'd want to set the turbo vane position to produce the minimum boost required to keep load below 100%.
(01-15-2010, 01:41 PM)willbhere4u whats the advantage to this over stock linkages? I think Toyota just recalled all of there fly by wire car to be retrofired back to cable
(01-14-2010, 03:10 PM)cell I'll define 100% load as the point at which the amount of fuel being injected entirely consumes the available air (ie, past this point you make black smoke). so the load has to be calculated on the fly, based on rpm, boost pressure and temperature, and rack position.
for most efficient operation, you'd want to set the turbo vane position to produce the minimum boost required to keep load below 100%.
(01-15-2010, 01:41 PM)willbhere4u whats the advantage to this over stock linkages? I think Toyota just recalled all of there fly by wire car to be retrofired back to cable
I was talking about gasers not diesels Toyota hasen't sold diesels here in the US ever! And what Subaru in 99 has throttle by wire? I would highly doubt that! all of the Subarus I have sever worked on have throttle cable's Impreza Foresters and Legacys! here in the US toyota recalled all of there gas cars with throttle by wire they claim it's the floor mats but the fix is installing a throttle cable and disabling throttle by wire!!!
BMW by far has the best throttle by wire system for the gas engine with out even having a throttle body just using engine management/valve timing to set its idle! Unlike Toyota using that stupid electric throttle body!!!
http://www.ennislaw.com/toyota_lexus_thr...02009.html
http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/automo...eid=275138
(01-16-2010, 08:07 PM)willbhere4u I was talking about gasers not diesels Toyota hasen't sold diesels here in the US ever! And what Subaru in 99 has throttle by wire? I would highly doubt that! all of the Subarus I have sever worked on have throttle cable's Impreza Foresters and Legacys! here in the US toyota recalled all of there gas cars with throttle by wire they claim it's the floor mats but the fix is installing a throttle cable and disabling throttle by wire!!!
Quote:Toyota first installed electronic throttles in 2002 model year Lexus ES and Camry sedans.
(01-16-2010, 08:07 PM)willbhere4u I was talking about gasers not diesels Toyota hasen't sold diesels here in the US ever! And what Subaru in 99 has throttle by wire? I would highly doubt that! all of the Subarus I have sever worked on have throttle cable's Impreza Foresters and Legacys! here in the US toyota recalled all of there gas cars with throttle by wire they claim it's the floor mats but the fix is installing a throttle cable and disabling throttle by wire!!!
Quote:Toyota first installed electronic throttles in 2002 model year Lexus ES and Camry sedans.
I'm not doubting they used it at all!!! I just pointed out it didn't work well! I have heard from several Porsche and Toyota owners it doesn't have the same throttle responce as the cable operated ones and that there is a delay between when you push the throttle and when it accelerates we have had throttle by wire for over a decade over here as well
But remember mechanical throttle linkage has been used for 125 years now on automobiles and works pretty darn well on a gas or diesel engine!
like I said I like BMW's system seams to work the best on a petrol engine because the engine was designed for it to work! with no throttle body at all like a diesel!
It makes a lot more seance on a diesel than on a petrol engine in IMO
here in the us we didn't get turbo legacy's either until 05! and all Subaru's in the US are single turbo with a throttle cable even to this day! we don't get the cool ones!!! I'm a big Subaru fan myself and would kill to put one of those engines in my 96 legacy outback wagon ej22 5spd
and I like knowing my 240d turbo 4spd will be the only car running if we ever get hit by an EMP blast as its completely mechanical in every way! all I need is a long enough hill and a warm day!
sorry for hijacking you thread and keep up the good work!
(01-17-2010, 02:43 PM)willbhere4u I'm not doubting they used it at all!!! I just pointed out it didn't work well! I have heard from several Porsche and Toyota owners it doesn't have the same throttle responce as the cable operated ones and that there is a delay between when you push the throttle and when it accelerates we have had throttle by wire for over a decade over here as well
(01-17-2010, 02:43 PM)willbhere4u I'm not doubting they used it at all!!! I just pointed out it didn't work well! I have heard from several Porsche and Toyota owners it doesn't have the same throttle responce as the cable operated ones and that there is a delay between when you push the throttle and when it accelerates we have had throttle by wire for over a decade over here as well
(01-16-2010, 01:05 AM)Kiwibacon I suggest some more background reading on the A/F ratios that diesels are happy with.
Stoich (what you define at 100%) is about 14.5:1 and will melt your diesel in a big puff of black smoke.
Diesels always run lean, how rich you can get that lean-ness depends on how how your charge temps are. But you're going to want to keep it leaner than 20:1 under sustained load and probably 18:1 in transients.
(01-16-2010, 01:05 AM)Kiwibacon I suggest some more background reading on the A/F ratios that diesels are happy with.
Stoich (what you define at 100%) is about 14.5:1 and will melt your diesel in a big puff of black smoke.
Diesels always run lean, how rich you can get that lean-ness depends on how how your charge temps are. But you're going to want to keep it leaner than 20:1 under sustained load and probably 18:1 in transients.
An electric motor cant snap a throttle open and closed like a cable and spring!!! Floor your car and snap off the throttle it will pull for a second before it comes back to normal that's the majority of the complaints I hear day in and day out about those systems!
Evan Fuel injection can't snap throttle response like a carburetor I had an mg with a 1275cc and duel SU carbs and it would snap to redline with a blip of the throttle so quick you couldn't stop it from smacking the limiter and back to idle so fast you wouldn't believe it!
Even my 94 Miata with a supercharger if you snap off the throttle will only drop to 2000k rpm and then slowly lower to idle
In a gas car there is no power to be gained from throttle by wire and no use for it! unless you remove the throttle body from the equation
Why not just eliminate the driver from the equation and let a computer do all of the driving!!!
(01-17-2010, 07:21 PM)willbhere4u An electric motor cant snap a throttle open and closed like a cable and spring!!!
(01-17-2010, 07:21 PM)willbhere4u An electric motor cant snap a throttle open and closed like a cable and spring!!!
Yea and the valves in an F1 engine are driven pneumatically what difference dose that make when the throttle body are drive with an electric motor and gears? actuators use one plunger in an electric field! gears can only turn so fast! and pneumatic actuators are even faster!
we used electric actuators for shifting on gsxr 1000 and huyabusa powered scca f 1000 cars they are quick but that isnt the techoligey being used by manufactures!
again what is the advantage? It dosent help hp? If you think of the power it takes to do all of this it loads the alternator and looses hp maybe not much!
but there is still no advantage just because you can doesn't mean you should Its just taking something simple and complicating it why not make it hydraulic???
(01-17-2010, 07:21 PM)willbhere4u no use for it!
Quote:Why not just eliminate the driver from the equation and let a computer do all of the driving!!!
(01-17-2010, 07:21 PM)willbhere4u no use for it!
Quote:Why not just eliminate the driver from the equation and let a computer do all of the driving!!!
(01-17-2010, 08:22 PM)willbhere4u Yea and the valves in an F1 engine are driven pneumatically what difference dose that make when the throttle body are drive with an electric motor and gears? actuators use one plunger in an electric field! gears can only turn so fast! and pneumatic actuators are even faster!
we used electric actuators for shifting on gsxr 1000 and huyabusa powered scca f 1000 cars they are quick but that isnt the techoligey being used by manufactures!
again what is the advantage? It dosent help hp? If you think of the power it takes to do all of this it loads the alternator and looses hp maybe not much!
but there is still no advantage just because you can doesn't mean you should Its just taking something simple and complicating it why not make it hydraulic???
(01-17-2010, 08:26 PM)GREASY_BEAST Another real benefit is that computer control of the throttle gives, coupled with some sensors in the trans, the ability to auto-match engine revs for shifts allowing you to shift faster and more efficiently. If you have a really big servo actuating the shift lever and the clutch you could turn a manual transmission into an automatic that has shift times which are faster than you can blink. This provides an ENORMOUS benefit in acceleration and driveability, not to mention the hardware is protected from human error and always operates within its limitations.
(01-17-2010, 08:22 PM)willbhere4u Yea and the valves in an F1 engine are driven pneumatically what difference dose that make when the throttle body are drive with an electric motor and gears? actuators use one plunger in an electric field! gears can only turn so fast! and pneumatic actuators are even faster!
we used electric actuators for shifting on gsxr 1000 and huyabusa powered scca f 1000 cars they are quick but that isnt the techoligey being used by manufactures!
again what is the advantage? It dosent help hp? If you think of the power it takes to do all of this it loads the alternator and looses hp maybe not much!
but there is still no advantage just because you can doesn't mean you should Its just taking something simple and complicating it why not make it hydraulic???
(01-17-2010, 08:26 PM)GREASY_BEAST Another real benefit is that computer control of the throttle gives, coupled with some sensors in the trans, the ability to auto-match engine revs for shifts allowing you to shift faster and more efficiently. If you have a really big servo actuating the shift lever and the clutch you could turn a manual transmission into an automatic that has shift times which are faster than you can blink. This provides an ENORMOUS benefit in acceleration and driveability, not to mention the hardware is protected from human error and always operates within its limitations.
Just to chime in on this, I appreciate the idea of drive by wire, but there is a lot to be said to an honest mechanical connection to the throttle for reliability, especially if your deal with salt and weather.
Of course, my experience on this is limited solely to working on a fleet of workhorse P vans, (very shitty gathering of random GM parts, spackle, left over aircraft aluminum, duct tape, and a childs tears)
We went through a round where we had to replace all the GM drive by wire systems where we could because they all started to malfunction in daily service with the slightest corrosion. It got to the point where trucks A-F were designated "fair weather platforms"
There was a rash of shorting connections causing the trucks to A, shut off without warning, B enter limp mode without warning, and C, display general psychotic behavior without input from the driver, most of the time on the highway with high water spray.
these were all 05 and 06 trucks I believe, using somewhat earlier GM technology. I found it incredibly unreliable after only a couple of years, BUT, again, a workhorse van is not well designed, and the system was in constant contact with weather and road salt/sand. Should work better with a little consideration.
How is throttle by wire safer? Maybe for the engine but not for the driver! What if the electronics short or fail at WOT like they have been doing! This is why a bunch of the auto manufactures have recalled and retrofitted these systems!!!
And a manual transmissions don't need any computer input it's just a box full of gears and levers???
There is no performance benefit unless you remove the throttle body all together like BMW did
Keep it simple stupid!!! The more complicated it is the more there is to break or fail
I should know I owned a Citroen DS hydromatic with a hydraulic computer to control the clutch and gear changes using break and throttle inputs from the carburetor and an electric shifter it's nothing new its all been around 60 years mechanical/hydraulic linkages can do any thing a computer can!
personally I prefer the price control over my throttle that a cable/linkage gives me!
I would hate the pause between when you tell it to do something and when the computer decides to do it or not! And there is that not so remote possibility that the throttle body will fail/bind at wot or die just when you need to out accelerate that bus that is out of control because of it's failed throttle by wire system
P.S. my mercedes 240d dose not have a cable it has a direct linkage from the pedal to the injector pump! works great even 30 years later!
and my 1928 Buick throttle linkage still works great with no maintenance 82 years later! for that mater our ten year old 2000 Subaru Forester throttle CABLE still works great even with 235,000 miles and no adjustments still his full throttle
(01-18-2010, 12:20 AM)willbhere4u How is throttle by wire safer? Maybe for the engine but not for the driver! What if the electronics short or fail at WOT like they have been doing! This is why a bunch of the auto manufactures have recalled and retrofitted these systems!!!
Quote:And a manual transmissions don't need any computer input it's just a box full of gears and levers???
Quote:There is no performance benefit unless you remove the throttle body all together like BMW did
Quote:Keep it simple stupid!!! The more complicated it is the more there is to break or fail
Quote:I should know I owned a Citroen DS hydromatic with a hydraulic computer to control the clutch and gear changes using break and throttle inputs from the carburetor and an electric shifter it's nothing new its all been around 60 years mechanical/hydraulic linkages can do any thing a computer can!
(01-18-2010, 12:20 AM)willbhere4u How is throttle by wire safer? Maybe for the engine but not for the driver! What if the electronics short or fail at WOT like they have been doing! This is why a bunch of the auto manufactures have recalled and retrofitted these systems!!!
Quote:And a manual transmissions don't need any computer input it's just a box full of gears and levers???
Quote:There is no performance benefit unless you remove the throttle body all together like BMW did
Quote:Keep it simple stupid!!! The more complicated it is the more there is to break or fail
Quote:I should know I owned a Citroen DS hydromatic with a hydraulic computer to control the clutch and gear changes using break and throttle inputs from the carburetor and an electric shifter it's nothing new its all been around 60 years mechanical/hydraulic linkages can do any thing a computer can!
(01-18-2010, 12:20 AM)willbhere4u How is throttle by wire safer? Maybe for the engine but not for the driver! What if the electronics short or fail at WOT like they have been doing! This is why a bunch of the auto manufactures have recalled and retrofitted these systems!!!
(01-18-2010, 12:20 AM)willbhere4u And a manual transmissions don't need any computer input it's just a box full of gears and levers???
(01-18-2010, 12:20 AM)willbhere4u How is throttle by wire safer? Maybe for the engine but not for the driver! What if the electronics short or fail at WOT like they have been doing! This is why a bunch of the auto manufactures have recalled and retrofitted these systems!!!
(01-18-2010, 12:20 AM)willbhere4u And a manual transmissions don't need any computer input it's just a box full of gears and levers???
(01-17-2010, 07:21 PM)willbhere4u Evan Fuel injection can't snap throttle response like a carburetorFuel injection has big advantages over a carburetor and most g@s engines can be easily converted to it. Deceleration fuel shutoff, accurate and even fuel distribution, real time A/F ratio control, RPM limiting without washing the cylinders, no fuel condensation, no back firing, anti-lag programs, etc.
(01-18-2010, 12:53 AM)Kiwibacon How many vehicles are sold new these days with a manual transmission?
(01-17-2010, 07:21 PM)willbhere4u Evan Fuel injection can't snap throttle response like a carburetorFuel injection has big advantages over a carburetor and most g@s engines can be easily converted to it. Deceleration fuel shutoff, accurate and even fuel distribution, real time A/F ratio control, RPM limiting without washing the cylinders, no fuel condensation, no back firing, anti-lag programs, etc.
(01-18-2010, 12:53 AM)Kiwibacon How many vehicles are sold new these days with a manual transmission?
boy this thread is a hot one
here's my progress for the evening:
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tciLgdMQsOE
code, etc: http://jason.pepas.com/wiki/index.php?ti...ePrototype
(01-18-2010, 02:16 AM)ForcedInduction Thats the big difference. A mechanical Diesel already works very well, adding an electric motor to control the mechanical throttle and governor is a huge evolutionary step backwards. If you want an electronic Diesel, you should get one that started that way. Either with an electronic IP, common rail or unit injectors.
(01-18-2010, 02:16 AM)ForcedInduction Thats the big difference. A mechanical Diesel already works very well, adding an electric motor to control the mechanical throttle and governor is a huge evolutionary step backwards. If you want an electronic Diesel, you should get one that started that way. Either with an electronic IP, common rail or unit injectors.
(01-18-2010, 05:05 AM)CID Vicious A linear 1:1 ratio is bestA linear throttle is rare. Look at the throttle cam on most g@ssers and you'll see a steep first half with a shallow second half. Its what helps automakers fool customers into thinking their engine has lots of torque. As a side note, thats also the exact same effect adjusting the ALDA returns...
(01-18-2010, 05:05 AM)CID Vicious A linear 1:1 ratio is bestA linear throttle is rare. Look at the throttle cam on most g@ssers and you'll see a steep first half with a shallow second half. Its what helps automakers fool customers into thinking their engine has lots of torque. As a side note, thats also the exact same effect adjusting the ALDA returns...
Well, you just said it - even if the linear reaction weren't desirable the only benefit would be a bi-mode over a linkage or cable. The idea that the computer knows what throttle input is needed at a particular time is hilarious, like someone riding in the trunk giving you directions while blind. Manual transmissions would have gone bye-bye a long, long time ago if X algorithm was capable of being 'smarter' than a decent driver. However most drivers out there are horrible and have essentially no idea what they're doing, so these electronic nannies get put in so these lemmings won't kill themselves. So far the only thing I like about modern cars is EFI and ABS.
None of that splashes on what cell is trying to accomplish, and he may well be enjoying the truck for years set up like that while we're all scratching our heads over 'why?' He has the option of having the benefit without a bunch of factory engineers (and the legal and accounting departments that control them) mucking up a good idea. VW's, or Infinity's or whatever might have goofy gremlins in their throttle but his doesn't have to unless he wants it that way.
(01-18-2010, 02:16 AM)ForcedInduction Thats the big difference. A mechanical Diesel already works very well, adding an electric motor to control the mechanical throttle and governor is a huge evolutionary step backwards. If you want an electronic Diesel, you should get one that started that way. Either with an electronic IP, common rail or unit injectors.
(01-18-2010, 02:16 AM)ForcedInduction Thats the big difference. A mechanical Diesel already works very well, adding an electric motor to control the mechanical throttle and governor is a huge evolutionary step backwards. If you want an electronic Diesel, you should get one that started that way. Either with an electronic IP, common rail or unit injectors.
(01-18-2010, 05:05 AM)CID Vicious If you're this comfy with automotive electronics I'd love to see you tinker with a TDI or other modern diesel. Say you accomplished all you wanted with this on a 617, you're still stuck with a two valve IDI head,
(01-18-2010, 05:05 AM)CID Vicious If you're this comfy with automotive electronics I'd love to see you tinker with a TDI or other modern diesel. Say you accomplished all you wanted with this on a 617, you're still stuck with a two valve IDI head,
Throttle by wire makes seance on an electric car or diesel electric hybrid personally if you don't like mechanical linkages take all of the moving parts out of the equation rods pistons and all and go electric!
Throttle by wire makes no seance on a gas car unless you remove the throttle body ! no benefit's over a cable you will find out on your own!
If you want to put your family's safety in the control of a little black box do it by all means! I personally like having 100% control over my car in every aspect! starting throttle response transmissions gear and clutch
There isn't an automatic worth driving! unless you are drag racing!
automatic's are for pussy's and people that cant shift or use a clutch
(01-18-2010, 02:44 PM)willbhere4u If you want to put your family's safety in the control of a little black box do it by all means! I personally like having 100% control over my car in every aspect! starting throttle response transmissions gear and clutch
(01-18-2010, 02:44 PM)willbhere4u There isn't an automatic worth driving! unless you are drag racing!
automatic's are for pussy's and people that cant shift or use a clutch
cell It's here!
(01-18-2010, 02:44 PM)willbhere4u If you want to put your family's safety in the control of a little black box do it by all means! I personally like having 100% control over my car in every aspect! starting throttle response transmissions gear and clutch
(01-18-2010, 02:44 PM)willbhere4u There isn't an automatic worth driving! unless you are drag racing!
automatic's are for pussy's and people that cant shift or use a clutch
cell It's here!
Nice turbo cell! keep up the good work sorry for hijacking the thread!!! Your progress is very interesting are you going to tie the VNT part of the turbo into the throttle by wire system?
I have no problem with electronics where they make seance! Like I said before it makes total seance when you eliminate the throttle body all together and let the engine management control the engine speed with valve timing and ignition timing and fueling
but when adding an actuator to an already existing throttle body whats the point a cable can open/close a THB with out any problems!!!
I have no real problems with automatics they just aren't any fun to drive like a minivan! Automatics are for soccer moms only real men can drive stick!
After looking at the video, you have a great start. You should really look into using a long stroke solenoid with a spring return like the Bosch electronic pumps have.
You can feed a PCM signal through a power transistor to control it. Also, having a feedback circuit will allow you to compensate for different conditions, loads, temperatures, etc...
I got the Hella actuator on my GT2256V working, which is related to this project.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/garr...l#pid10096
See this thread for an argument as to why an electronic governor would be useful with no other pump modifications (i.e. stock elements). The standard governor is incapable of providing maximum fueling in the high part of the rpm range. Electronic rack control will allow full fueling at any rpm. This will yield more power.
Cell, or anyone else, for that matter: have you thought of employing the cruise actuator for this task? We know its more than ample power-wise. I know very little about electronics, however I have some programming experience. I have little doubts that I can write all the software, its the hardware that I will need to learn something about. What type of circuitry would one require to convert all the signals to something the Arduino can deal with? Where should I look to learn about this stuff? I will order an Arduino kit later this month. Which one should I get? I have an extra pump and a few cruise servos to play with, so I would really like to hack something together!
(01-30-2010, 01:34 PM)GREASY_BEAST See this thread for an argument as to why an electronic governor would be useful with no other pump modifications (i.e. stock elements). The standard governor is incapable of providing maximum fueling in the high part of the rpm range. Electronic rack control will allow full fueling at any rpm. This will yield more power.
(01-30-2010, 01:34 PM)GREASY_BEAST Cell, or anyone else, for that matter: have you thought of employing the cruise actuator for this task? We know its more than ample power-wise.
(01-30-2010, 01:34 PM)GREASY_BEAST I know very little about electronics, however I have some programming experience. I have little doubts that I can write all the software, its the hardware that I will need to learn something about. What type of circuitry would one require to convert all the signals to something the Arduino can deal with? Where should I look to learn about this stuff? I will order an Arduino kit later this month. Which one should I get? I have an extra pump and a few cruise servos to play with, so I would really like to hack something together!
(01-30-2010, 01:34 PM)GREASY_BEAST See this thread for an argument as to why an electronic governor would be useful with no other pump modifications (i.e. stock elements). The standard governor is incapable of providing maximum fueling in the high part of the rpm range. Electronic rack control will allow full fueling at any rpm. This will yield more power.
(01-30-2010, 01:34 PM)GREASY_BEAST Cell, or anyone else, for that matter: have you thought of employing the cruise actuator for this task? We know its more than ample power-wise.
(01-30-2010, 01:34 PM)GREASY_BEAST I know very little about electronics, however I have some programming experience. I have little doubts that I can write all the software, its the hardware that I will need to learn something about. What type of circuitry would one require to convert all the signals to something the Arduino can deal with? Where should I look to learn about this stuff? I will order an Arduino kit later this month. Which one should I get? I have an extra pump and a few cruise servos to play with, so I would really like to hack something together!