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+--- Thread: Dual Swaybars (/showthread.php?tid=728)
Dual Swaybars - CID Vicious - 09-30-2009
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=9587
I'm thinking of trying out duals on the rear. It would help in getting the car to not understeer as much, and I don't think the difference would be enough to send it into oversteer. Seems like some threaded rod, some pipe (spacers) and simple adapters at the ends would be enough to set it up.
For comparison's sake, is there an aftermarket swaybar option for our cars? Cost? I'm thinking that stock 240D rear swaybars can't be commanding a premium price. I figure this mod could be done for maybe forty bucks and on a Saturday. Possibly less.
The front I think will be left alone until I decide to rent a spring compressor and fire up the grinder. I think the cut springs in front and duals in the back with fresh shocks should be a decent setup. Possibly 2 coils in front with one in back. I'll have to see.
RE: Dual Swaybars - winmutt - 09-30-2009
There is no aftermarket. We talked about metal zip tying some sways together for the lemons race and never got around to it. You *can* get a customer sway bar made for probably around $300 from a local spring shop.
RE: Dual Swaybars - willbhere4u - 09-30-2009
Are there any differences on the stiffness of the sway bars between a 240d 300d or 300td???? would be nice to just upgrade to a better stock one!
RE: Dual Swaybars - winmutt - 10-01-2009
Nope. Only option was the 15mm used on SLS vehciles with the extra heavy duty option and all of those are NLA after a rash of sales after I purchased mine.
RE: Dual Swaybars - DeliveryValve - 10-02-2009
(09-30-2009, 06:41 PM)willbhere4u Are there any differences on the stiffness of the sway bars between a 240d 300d or 300td???? would be nice to just upgrade to a better stock one!
Is there any objections to narrowing a W126 17mm rear sway bar? The plan.. I am going to cut out a section in the middle of the w126 swaybar. Then slide a 4 inch sleeve on, weld back the sway bar together, then slide the sleeve over the welded area and then seal the sleeve with a bead of weld. Hopefully I won't F-up the metallurgy of the bar and have it crack during hard corning.
.
RE: Dual Swaybars - CID Vicious - 10-02-2009
(10-02-2009, 06:31 PM)DeliveryValve(09-30-2009, 06:41 PM)willbhere4u Are there any differences on the stiffness of the sway bars between a 240d 300d or 300td???? would be nice to just upgrade to a better stock one!
Is there any objections to narrowing a W126 17mm rear sway bar? The plan.. I am going to cut out a section in the middle of the w126 swaybar. Then slide a 4 inch sleeve on, weld back the sway bar together, then slide the sleeve over the welded area and then seal the sleeve with a bead of weld. Hopefully I won't F-up the metallurgy of the bar and have it crack during hard corning.
No objections. Try it out - worst comes to worse, you'll have wasted your time and a junkyard swaybar. If it works, then it's another option for the W123 owner.
RE: Dual Swaybars - DeliveryValve - 10-10-2009
(10-02-2009, 06:31 PM)DeliveryValve ...
Is there any objections to narrowing a W126 17mm rear sway bar? ....
.
OK, I don't know where I got this notion of a w126 17mm rear swaybar ever existed!
I've been to a couple of PNPs and I am now convinced that the w126 only came with, at my estimate, a 14mm rear sway bar. Not worth the trouble to modify.
I did however find a swaybar that might work with some modifications.
I pulled this rear sway bar from a W116 1974 450SEL. Too bad this car was in the yard, but you Gotta love California cars. This fine example is rust free and clean up looking like it was almost off the assembly line for being 35 years old.
And the great thing about it....... It is a whopping 18.5 mm! Compared to the w123's toothpick diameter 13mm swaybar.
Of course some modifications will have to be done for it to work. Luckily there was a w123 at the yard to compare and size up.
The first thing would be to heat up the side bars and bend them 180 degrees the other direction. The side bars are flat so this should be doable. I have to rearrange this because the w116 swaybar has a bend that will interfere with the differential. Other things to note is the side bars would also have to be shortened and re-drilled for use with the w116 style metal swaybar links. Which by the way is much stronger than the w123's plastic links. The body mounting position is I believe right on with the w123s. The only other problem will be the bend in the center of the bar might hit the spare tire wheel well after doing the side bar mod.
I'll make another thread to discuss this bar after I get around to installing it.
.
RE: Dual Swaybars - winmutt - 10-10-2009
BTDT I'll be interested to see if you have diff results. 17mm 126 bars are found on SEC and SLS.
RE: Dual Swaybars - CID Vicious - 10-10-2009
Cool, DV, let us know how this goes...
I'm debating whether to do this first or get shocks first. My shocks suck. However, I think I'd be able to do this mod 4 or 5 times over before I reached the cost of a new set of HDs.
Now that I've gotten to drive the car in a semi normal mode (working PS and axles that don't have to turn 90 degrees before catching), the understeer is less of a problem than I at first thought, but it's still there. I'm wondering how this thing will be pegged on the highway with a stiffer bar...however there's plenty of places to test where I live and I might have it set up to be 'adjustable', ie you can connect or disconnect the rear bar without much trouble. Should be easy, some anti seize and wingnuts should do the job, and a way to make sure the bar doesn't dip and catch on something.
Speaking of adjustment, you might have room on that bar to add a couple of holes for adjustment positions on that 116 bar - toward the pivot point should be stiffer.
Don't forget that Moog makes steel replacement end links for our rear swaybars. About 30 bucks a pair.
RE: Dual Swaybars - DeliveryValve - 10-10-2009
(10-10-2009, 05:20 PM)winmutt BTDT I'll be interested to see if you have diff results. 17mm 126 bars are found on SEC and SLS.
Been there done that? You mean with a w116 sway bar?
I was looking at an '83 SEC non SLS and there was just the 14mm sway bar. So I guess the SLS option would have it.
.
(10-10-2009, 05:21 PM)CID Vicious ...
Speaking of adjustment, you might have room on that bar to add a couple of holes for adjustment positions on that 116 bar - toward the pivot point should be stiffer.
Don't forget that Moog makes steel replacement end links for our rear swaybars. About 30 bucks a pair.
Good idea and I'll check on the Moog part.
.
RE: Dual Swaybars - charmalu - 10-11-2009
There is a 560SEL Euro with SLS at one of the PNP. think I will swing by there and check the rear sway bar with my Caliper.
Charlie
RE: Dual Swaybars - Kiwibacon - 10-11-2009
If you want to stiffen up a swaybar, simply shorten the side arms. Shift the mount point further back so the bar has more leverage.
RE: Dual Swaybars - charmalu - 10-11-2009
Well I measured the bar on the 85 500SEl Euro with SLS, and it shows about 17.25mm.
right behind it was another 85 500SEL but U.S. spect. that bar measures 14.25mm.
these two looked like twins, blk on blk.
I now own a larger sway bar. where the W116 is curved, the W126 is straight,
Charlie
RE: Dual Swaybars - DeliveryValve - 10-11-2009
(10-11-2009, 08:03 PM)charmalu Well I measured the bar on the 85 500SEl Euro with SLS, and it shows about 17.25mm.
right behind it was another 85 500SEL but U.S. spect. that bar measures 14.25mm.
these two looked like twins, blk on blk.
I now own a larger sway bar. where the W116 is curved, the W126 is straight,
Charlie
Charlie, could you take some pictures of the bar and post them?
The w116 bar measures 45 inches between the two mounting bushings (starting and ending at the welded rings) . I like to know what the 126 bar measures.
.
RE: Dual Swaybars - CID Vicious - 10-11-2009
(10-11-2009, 04:57 PM)Kiwibacon If you want to stiffen up a swaybar, simply shorten the side arms. Shift the mount point further back so the bar has more leverage.
Yeah, but in our case we'll just end up with a slightly stiffer coat hanger.
Most of the adjustable bars have three holes on either side about an inch or two away from each other. Moving towards the pivot will stiffen the bar, but the adjustable bars tend to be large and offered as a stand alone product instead of part of a concerted system. If the car is too hairy with the bar on the street, but you like it at the track, you can just move the attachment point and wa-la.
Maybe with a set of adjustable endlinks you could see a significant improvement, but I'd guess that with a stock bar you'd have to move it further back than would be practical. Somehow, stiffening a stock bar like that is like expecting 'extra stopping power' from the mod you just did to your BB gun...it might be there, it might even be measurable, but it's probably not the result you're looking for. However, do try it and let us know.
I posted this because the Volvo guys are kind of in the same boat as we are - people mod those cars but not so much in this market, so they have to get creative instead of letting the Visa card do the heavy lifting. However, those SOBs have IPD sway bars and whatnot, but this has apparently been tried and it works, it's not hard to accomplish and requires no cutting or welding of the car. Basically, stack of washers (ok, if you want a pipe spacer you might have to whip out the hacksaw), threaded rod of the appropriate type, and a junkyard sway bar with related hardware. I'm thinking that steel strap would work to connect the 'new' bar to the one already in place, might have to drill four holes. No special equipment or parts necessary - anyone anywhere with one of these cars and a place to get used parts can do this.
I think this mod in the rear (I can't see doing the front, too, but maybe), combined with some judiciously cut coils and some HDs would make for quite a willing back road bomber. Well, that and some friggin' tires that don't seem more at home on a Civic...honestly, 185's, and stock spec was for 175's? Next after the above is accomplished I'm going to look into getting a parts 300SD so I can cannibalize damn near everything off of it - motor, wheels and tires, brakes.
I don't know, though. Maybe I'm better off just keeping the 240D stock and looking elsewhere for a road toy. I'll have to crunch the numbers and see, if it reaches 1500 bones then I could theoretically buy back my Civic for what I sold it for to get this. I know, I know, but hey...that car was a fucking blast to drive and it wasn't even very well set up. For the money, if you're willing to turn a wrench it's the best way to get something you can just drive the snot out of. I'd love to get my hands on a CRX. Even a joe Civic breathed on just right. Wait in the shadows for some sap who's got kids now and his wife wants something 'safe'. Or just do something else with what little time I have left on Planet Earth (no matter how much time that may be)...
RE: Dual Swaybars - Kiwibacon - 10-12-2009
Have you guys approached custom spring makers?
Afterall, a sway bar is just a double ended torsion spring. They should have suitable material and forming gear to custom make them.
RE: Dual Swaybars - DeliveryValve - 10-12-2009
(10-12-2009, 12:38 AM)Kiwibacon Have you guys approached custom spring makers?
Afterall, a sway bar is just a double ended torsion spring. They should have suitable material and forming gear to custom make them.
No I personally haven't.... I am a cheap mug. I got the w116 bar for 20 bucks. Definitely worth trying to modify.
.
RE: Dual Swaybars - winmutt - 10-12-2009
I heard ~$400 for a custom one. Would love a 17mm or a hollow one.
RE: Dual Swaybars - CID Vicious - 10-12-2009
We could get a group buy going and that would bring the price down, but you're still talking 200 bucks, I would think, and we'd likely have to get other enthusiasts (Benz Forum?) to chip in, as I can't see more than maybe 10 folks from here ponying up that for a new bar.
Unfortunately, our cars are so niche and a rare choice for tuning, so the economies of scale don't apply so much. The potential market is huge - how many 123s did they make? - but the car doesn't get looked at in the same way as, say, a Camaro, or another car with a huge following that people buy because they like to drive.
Sadly, if people were to get wise to these cars, they'd probably become more expensive to buy. Might be great for some of y'all with 2 or 3 kicking around, though...
RE: Dual Swaybars - charmalu - 10-16-2009
This is a rear sway bar off a 85 500SEL Euro with SLS. measured 17.25mm
there was another 85 500SEL. (DOT Approved) the sway bar on it is 14.25mm
Charlie
RE: Dual Swaybars - winmutt - 10-19-2009
~2mm wider than the stock ones right?
RE: Dual Swaybars - fha772 - 08-17-2011
What does a stock W123 sway bar measure?
How much bigger is the W126 bar?
RE: Dual Swaybars - winmutt - 08-17-2011
W123 is 13.5
W126 can be found in 15, and 17, and even torsion bars. They are about 2cm too wide however.
RE: Dual Swaybars - fha772 - 08-17-2011
Is that 2cm too wide at the ends or the actual bar length?
Could the ends be bent in by 1 cm each to fit?
RE: Dual Swaybars - iheartboost - 08-17-2011
Man...thats some pathetic rear sway diameters. I might have to try and fab one up.
RE: Dual Swaybars - Robert_UAH - 03-26-2012
Racetech magazine (November 2008 issue) had an article on fabbing your own swaybars. Materials they suggest was either EN8 (that is the UK name) or hydraulic tubing.
RE: Dual Swaybars - OM616 - 03-27-2012
I made some 18mm rear bars for a 123 chassis before, so it can be done.
I think I made 4 or 5 and sold every one of them for $400 ish if I remember right.
The material was expensive and the tool I made to bend them up was a lot of work. A CNC bender would be the ticket, but to get the cost down you would have to order quite a few of them. Most CNC bending shops have a computerized measurement machine that can measure your stock bar and duplicate it with the larger material.
RE: Dual Swaybars - fha772 - 05-28-2012
How did the 18mm rear sway bars make the 123 handle?
After having my 280E on the track last weekend, I've realised that it needs the rear bar stiffening up.
RE: Dual Swaybars - winmutt - 05-28-2012
(05-28-2012, 05:38 PM)fha772 How did the 18mm rear sway bars make the 123 handle?Before the front end always bounded and hopped. after smooth as butter. This was on 13 vs 15mm. Did you do the front end yet?
After having my 280E on the track last weekend, I've realised that it needs the rear bar stiffening up.
RE: Dual Swaybars - lpumb3 - 10-03-2012
the dinky rear bar and plastic links were one of the first things i noticed under my 126 . i looked and looked boo hoo. its good to see that some body has gone and banged a couple custom bars out . i tried to solve it in my head with basic equipment and thought why not use a straight torque tube with some flat 1/4-1/2" plate ends , of length to the sway links ? either key the ends of the rod/tube to the plate or weld the plates on .size of tube and material would dictate sway/stiff and if you had the plate jetted or what not add a few sway mount holes .
im just plagiarizing a set up ive seen on muscle cars , so there may be a kit out there already ? havent looked into that yet .
although i did work at a spring shop years ago maybe ill pop in to STS with my old Hefe
RE: Dual Swaybars - CRD4x4 - 10-03-2012
Would it be considered to be in bad taste to chime in and mention that I've got sway bars for sale from my '81 300TD with SLS?
That would make the rear a 17mm, correct?
RE: Dual Swaybars - lpumb3 - 10-03-2012
hop this helps im not to savy with pics and stuff but i went on summit racing and the picture at the top of the sway bars section has a design like i was speaking of. although it looks like the arms are dampened ? any ways , there are a few designs they all look pretty rugged like track bars but this one looks interesting , Currie Enterprises CE9900 - Currie Enterprises Anti-Rock Sway Bar Kits,http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CUR-CE9900/?rtype=10, i dont know if that will work to link there or what not , here is summits part number CUR-CE9900. you can see its a solid rod . it also looks like its not very wide .
RE: Dual Swaybars - DeliveryValve - 10-03-2012
(10-03-2012, 12:06 PM)CRD4x4 Would it be considered to be in bad taste to chime in and mention that I've got sway bars for sale from my '81 300TD with SLS?
That would make the rear a 17mm, correct?
Actually, the TD bars are just 13mm. Same as the w123 sedans and coupes.
(10-03-2012, 11:44 AM)lpumb3 the dinky rear bar and plastic links were one of the first things i noticed under my 126 . i looked.....
I have a couple of w116 18.5/19mm bars that I'm selling. Should be the correct width for the w126. Just need to figure out the mounting. Which shouldn't be hard. Anyways PM me if interested.
RE: Dual Swaybars - lpumb3 - 10-04-2012
thanks DV ill keep you in mind , can you let me know when you've been able to line them up under a 126? im a few issues away from buying suspension stuff , but ill keep you in mind .