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+--- Thread: electric supercharger (/showthread.php?tid=6889)
electric supercharger - MTUPower - 11-22-2015
Has anyone tried to install a leaf blower in conjunction with a turbo to achieve low end boost? you'd need a powerful blower... a "Y" valve for the turbo air and blower air if the blower air/"Y" is positioned after the turbo / before the IC ... a flapper of some sort to stop the charged air from escaping out the blower... boost from the blower would be on from idle RPM to say 2-2.3K rpm (two seconds?). Audi and other major manufacturers are moving in that direction...
thoughts?
RE: electric supercharger - hooblah - 11-22-2015
Whatever drugs you're on, I think you should share them.
RE: electric supercharger - MTUPower - 11-22-2015
The key to the RS5 TDI’s performance and efficiency gains is a Valeo-supplied electric supercharger. It is positioned at the "cold side" of the intercooler and, thanks to a low-inertia rotor, capable of reacting within 100 milliseconds and revving to 70,000 rpm. ...The electric supercharger requires a separate 48-volt power supply, and the conversion from the 12-volt system adds cost and complexity. Down the road, cost is expected to diminish as more electrical functions are integrated into a common 48-volt system.
Yes it's older however please stick to the subject and drop the ridicule; its a valid subject.
RE: electric supercharger - swampmonkey - 11-22-2015
strap a couple of real leafblowers on there instead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U81_0waqEWA
he isnt the only one, going different routes for extra power, couple of youtubechannels have tried it, ducttaped to the bonnet etc, what roadkill does is acctualy the most serious conversion ive seen.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20140803/OEM10/308049992/electric-turbocharger-eliminates-lag-valeo-says
i would think you are better of with a compoundsetup
RE: electric supercharger - MTUPower - 11-22-2015
(11-22-2015, 08:04 PM)swampmonkey strap a couple of real leafblowers on there instead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U81_0waqEWA
he isnt the only one, going different routes for extra power, couple of youtubechannels have tried it, ducttaped to the bonnet etc, what roadkill does is acctualy the most serious conversion ive seen.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20140803/OEM10/308049992/electric-turbocharger-eliminates-lag-valeo-says
i would think you are better of with a compoundsetup
Yeah- I've seen that before. I'm quite serious and I'm not duct taping something to the hood. A compound set up is far more complex, costly and uses lots of space. There is but one real VGT/VNT actually being used, and a single large turbo as seen on more than a few 617's nearly always lack low end power or everyday driveability. Plus I'm not in Scandinavia with plenty other diesel gear heads around me, nor do I have a full blown workshop.
RE: electric supercharger - raysorenson - 11-22-2015
Leaf blowers do not work at the desired pressure ratio to add a significant amount charge air to the engine.
RE: electric supercharger - bricktron - 11-22-2015
the only vaguely plausible electric blower i've read about operated on 48V, so requiring dedicated power system, perhaps its own alternator. the ebay models seem to be an order of magnitude too weak to do anything.
RE: electric supercharger - MFSuper90 - 11-22-2015
What about an Electric motor with a belt running a procharger? Kind of the same concept... But im not sure how well it would work, but it could be remotely mounted and wouldn't be parasitic drag on the engine. I just don't know how many HP a procharger requires
RE: electric supercharger - whipplem104 - 11-23-2015
Just get a really big tank of compressed air and shoot it in the engine. And an suspension air pump to refill it. Or nitrous.
RE: electric supercharger - NZScott - 11-23-2015
I was on a googling spree yesterday after I had an idea come into my head about supercharging and came across a website that has proper electric superchargers....think I can find it now though? Probably costs more than a crate LS though
Whatever motor you'd use, it'd need pretty high voltage to get the power. One guy doing them used rewound starter motors at first, maybe that's the way to go
RE: electric supercharger - maxypriest - 11-23-2015
I might come across a bit negative, but why bother with all this faf? My HX40super/606/8.00mm Dieselmeken set up is brilliant to drive and not really that laggy over 3000. Under that it is quiet acceptable for day to day use. A smaller well matched turbo would spool up earlier without the crazy bhp, one of my mates use a small one that produces over 600ft/lbs at just over 2000 rpm – you after more than that?
Plus – a single turbo is easy to build and a very reliable set up. Why make things more complicated?
RE: electric supercharger - m1tch - 11-23-2015
I believe there are some electric supercharger/turbos in the pipeline for some of the larger car makes - a bit like the F1 hybrid engine which can spool up the turbo via a motor to act like a supercharger.
It makes senses to have one to supply boost, however nothing DIY or in the market at the moment can delivery enough air flow - think you would need to have something like a procharger but with an electric motor and gearing instead of a belt.
RE: electric supercharger - Hario' - 11-23-2015
A supercharger may consume 50 crank hp to provide a real boost pressure, remembering the vast volume of air consumed by the engine.
Then take a look at a 50hp electric motor..
Then look at its input voltage, current and phases. Then work out how to generate that..
RE: electric supercharger - barrote - 11-23-2015
lol , 50HP yep i see your point... a 5KvA electric engine hooked in the right low press (less than 10bar) compressor can suply more air than any engine could ever need...
the thing is with the energy conversion....
a turbo/compressor uses waste energy, can be as eficient as the driving turbine, a litle help (energy) is needed to keep it rocking so the extra fuel for EGP compesation , and the thing is the most eficient(engeneers say)
then u have the supercompressor , invented by aircraft engeneers to keep engines runing in altitude, but in altitude stange things happen with the air density, density decreases but so the drag , wich is something very importante for a compressor... they´re goal was having absolute pressure of 1 bar, very often 25 inches MAP many aircraft engines work at max 25 inches MAP, 29 is about 1 bar.
in aviation the most used compressor is the axial compressor, instead of the roots type or any other type, but axial compressor are really expensive , and not very resiliente to debris... imagine in a car where sand and dust is always there...
when u try to run a supercompressor to boost more tha 1 bar(2 bar absolute) and at sea level the eficiency goes down the drain, cause the beforementioned drag increases drastically , by the square of every inch. this renders the supercompressor eneficient, unless it is huge bastard like a M90 or 112.
then u have many other means of blowing air , but for us the turbine centrifugal compressor is the best, the most eficient by far....
i like the idea of a M90 and a holset type crap, after 2.5k the compressor is off line and the holset crap takes over... that is something i´ll try one day.
The F1 felas now the have a new toy, wich becomes possible by the rules and the evolution of the tecnic , and the thing is called the power pack, wich can drive the 5 KvA engine /generator behind the centrifugal compressor.
this power pack is a set of high cycle duty lithium bateries able to store almost a MW.
when the engine is above 10K the exaust waste energy drives the high eficiency turbine into 200.000 rpm keeping it at 4bar absolute pressure and using the rest by the generator to recycle the power pack. once the engine is REV below 10K the generator becomes a motor driving the compressor at 125.000 rpm with the energy from the pack, boost is bypassed and when the driver touches the thr almost instantly the 4bar absolute becomes available....
this is the future , for us will take 20years or so to be available....
regards
RE: electric supercharger - Petar - 11-23-2015
Stick a VW 1.6 Diesel in the trunk running a big centrifugal supercharger
RE: electric supercharger - m1tch - 11-23-2015
Here are the details for the electric supercharger that Audi is using, I think Volvo are also going to use the same sort at some point as well:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20140803/OEM10/308049992/electric-turbocharger-eliminates-lag-valeo-says
RE: electric supercharger - ecFSE - 11-23-2015
What do you think about this?
http://vandynesuperturbo.com
RE: electric supercharger - MTUPower - 11-23-2015
(11-23-2015, 05:33 AM)maxypriest I might come across a bit negative, but why bother with all this faf? My HX40super/606/8.00mm Dieselmeken set up is brilliant to drive and not really that laggy over 3000. Under that it is quiet acceptable for day to day use. A smaller well matched turbo would spool up earlier without the crazy bhp, one of my mates use a small one that produces over 600ft/lbs at just over 2000 rpm – you after more than that?
Plus – a single turbo is easy to build and a very reliable set up. Why make things more complicated?
I have the stock 617-952 in my 84 wagon; there's a list of modifications I've made in the thread about it here. I have a Myna pump - but I'm not about to for various reasons- build my engine like LedPanzer is doing/has done. I don't have the time, money or shop access like he does, nor can I buy multiple turbo's to find which one fits under the hood or spools perfectly for daily driving yet still gives as much power as possible. I see this question as a possible widely used idea. The link I used is a 40 volt blower- it's got to be able to provide some usable boost at low rpm.
RE: electric supercharger - Greazzer - 11-23-2015
(11-23-2015, 05:11 PM)MTUPower(11-23-2015, 05:33 AM)maxypriest I might come across a bit negative, but why bother with all this faf? My HX40super/606/8.00mm Dieselmeken set up is brilliant to drive and not really that laggy over 3000. Under that it is quiet acceptable for day to day use. A smaller well matched turbo would spool up earlier without the crazy bhp, one of my mates use a small one that produces over 600ft/lbs at just over 2000 rpm – you after more than that?
Plus – a single turbo is easy to build and a very reliable set up. Why make things more complicated?
I have the stock 617-952 in my 84 wagon; there's a list of modifications I've made in the thread about it here. I have a Myna pump - but I'm not about to for various reasons- build my engine like LedPanzer is doing/has done. I don't have the time, money or shop access like he does, nor can I buy multiple turbo's to find which one fits under the hood or spools perfectly for daily driving yet still gives as much power as possible. I see this question as a possible widely used idea. The link I used is a 40 volt blower- it's got to be able to provide some usable boost at low rpm.
Perhaps the issue is the "possibility" of such a device and the answer is most likely yes. The issue now is technology and affordability. A few years ago when I joined this forum, the whole topic of a mod'd IP was then cutting edge, and a minor mystery with Myna ..., now, there are at least two vendors out there making mod'd IPs, et cet. It is this pursuit of ideas which leads to experiments which leads to various items being installed in cars which leads to additional options that are available and affordable. For example, the idea of electric steering was viewed a few years ago as space age, yet it is very common now with a lot of folks getting donors at the yards for under $100 bucks. So, the few folks who submit those snappy comments aren't really helpful and they actually hurt the hobby. I am perplexed by the handful of "experts" who comment about this or that being nonsensical or not possible, yet I am guessing their main exposure to cars is watching and posting You Tube videos and telling folks how something isn't possible or helpful. I started seeing this on this forum about a year ago and yet those same posters have not contributed one useful thing in all that time.
RE: electric supercharger - CRD4x4 - 11-24-2015
(11-23-2015, 11:42 AM)Hario A supercharger may consume 50 crank hp to provide a real boost pressure, remembering the vast volume of air consumed by the engine.
Then take a look at a 50hp electric motor..
Then look at its input voltage, current and phases. Then work out how to generate that..
This statement had me wondering how a 67 hp Toyota Prius electric motor could be adapted to directly drive a large supercharger. Perhaps a drive-by-wire potentiometer style gas pedal could contol the motor speed to maintain optimal boost thru out the range?
The real problem I see is drag has to come from somewhere whether it be the supercharger or alternator (re)charging - unless packaged in a hybrid auto that already has the regeneration goodies built it.
Just spitballing...
RE: electric supercharger - Hario' - 11-24-2015
(11-24-2015, 07:32 AM)CRD4x4(11-23-2015, 11:42 AM)Hario A supercharger may consume 50 crank hp to provide a real boost pressure, remembering the vast volume of air consumed by the engine.
Then take a look at a 50hp electric motor..
Then look at its input voltage, current and phases. Then work out how to generate that..
This statement had me wondering how a 67 hp Toyota Prius electric motor could be adapted to directly drive a large supercharger. Perhaps a drive-by-wire potentiometer style gas pedal could contol the motor speed to maintain optimal boost thru out the range?
The real problem I see is drag has to come from somewhere whether it be the supercharger or alternator (re)charging - unless packaged in a hybrid auto that already has the regeneration goodies built it.
Just spitballing...
Well what about using an electric motor modified to drive the rotating assembly of a modified Holset 50? Then have a lag-free Holset HX50.. Like they do in Formula 1??
Potential bag of cats awoken.
RE: electric supercharger - deviance - 11-24-2015
Maybe use RC electric motor?
Oh. found one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT8sD4qFSYY
RE: electric supercharger - Turbo - 11-24-2015
even at 45000rpm my high pressure turbo give only 0,2 bars or about 3psi boost at 1700 engine rpm, that is about my os max will deliver but not at tha rpm, it only go max 38000 and there is no 2,5 HP available thats needed, this will increase engine deliver HP from 56 to 67 HP according to borg warner matchbot, just for reference at full boost that HP turbo compressor needs about 115HP, if we have a 48v power supply with 100% efficiency that would mean something like 1800 ampere in current, it sure would need some cable to transfer that current in the first place... in turbo machine world to have efficiency the smaller the machine the higher rpm, some smal turbo can go close to 300000rpm, and seen some experiment machine trying to gain 1000 000rpm, small gas turbine to military, when I was young we built a jet engine, something got wrong when we where running it so turbine wheel got lose, I think I have been more scared in my life but I can not remember when... and that was only at 100 000rpm
a tank with compressed air, I really think that will have some negative influence on the drag of the car since the size get relative large, I need about 800l/s (at atsmosphere pressure) so even if it is large it will not last that long any way, and at that stage turbo will need 300kw mechanical power, so 300kw of heat need to be go away in aftercooler and intercooler, just want to say there is more power going through from turbine to compressor that one would imagine initially, then just think about size and weight to the diesel motor in compare....
If you now want boost early try hyper turbo, like a combustion chamber after engine before turbos turbine, but use some material that will take the heat.
RE: electric supercharger - barrote - 11-24-2015
postcombustion, afterburner heheh, very interesting idea.... in low bypass turbofans work great.... but the fuel cost ...
NOX ingestion that is what this people need...
RE: electric supercharger - Turbo - 11-24-2015
even better in scramjet say SR71, halleluja
RE: electric supercharger - barrote - 11-24-2015
imagine that blowing the holset crap 50 hhehhe
RE: electric supercharger - m1tch - 11-25-2015
Just waiting to see if anyone tries to fit the OEM Audi electric supercharger to their car - will be interesting to see the results.
RE: electric supercharger - MTUPower - 11-25-2015
(11-25-2015, 03:43 AM)m1tch Just waiting to see if anyone tries to fit the OEM Audi electric supercharger to their car - will be interesting to see the results.
I'm sure that would be ultra expensive; thus the original question...
RE: electric supercharger - Greazzer - 11-25-2015
They are fielding the Audi ESC now, made by Valeo (I think). Assuming it goes into mass production (it appears they have been around for a while now, circa 2010-ish), they will start popping up in the yards shortly thereafter. So, by 2018-ish, these will be selling for around $200 bucks or so, maybe even cheaper. It depends on the number of units commercially installed and the wreckage .... Just like the Dodge Challengers. Tons of them now at the auctions which are wrecked and pretty cheap now.
RE: electric supercharger - raysorenson - 11-25-2015
10000000% chance the electric turbo will be CAN controlled. Then you have to come up with 48 volts.
RE: electric supercharger - Greazzer - 11-25-2015
I'm positive too there will be a bunch of electrical gizmos ... but once this turns into a COTs item, it will be dumbed down to the simple (+) and (-) and relay ... COTs = Commercial off the shelf ...
RE: electric supercharger - AlanMcR - 11-25-2015
(11-25-2015, 12:51 PM)Greazzer I'm positive too there will be a bunch of electrical gizmos ... but once this turns into a COTs item, it will be dumbed down to the simple (+) and (-) and relay ... COTs = Commercial off the shelf ...I'd presume the opposite. Probably told to spin at a specific speed over CAN. Or, to produce a specific absolute pressure, again over CAN.
RE: electric supercharger - the D - 11-25-2015
Assuming you're not talking about adding a ton of power but could you adapt an electric blower of some flavor to act as a low pressure compressor and compound it into a stock, or other, turbo?
RE: electric supercharger - MTUPower - 11-25-2015
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that's what the thread is about...
RE: electric supercharger - NZScott - 11-25-2015
If I was doing it, I would get an old procharger or the like, and adapt a truck starter motor to it. Starter motors are meant for huge short term grunt, which is what a electric supercharger would be for, to reduce lag of a larger turbo. Many electric car guys feed ridiculous amps into series wound motors from LiFePo4 batteries so this would be the same but on a smaller scale.
RE: electric supercharger - the D - 11-27-2015
(11-25-2015, 03:03 PM)I MTUPower ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that's what the thread is about...
I meant something not nearly as complicated as the original post. Just a blower pushing air directly into the turbo inlet, maybe a diverter valve to open when the throttle is closed.
RE: electric supercharger - MTUPower - 11-27-2015
(11-27-2015, 04:57 PM)the D(11-25-2015, 03:03 PM)I MTUPower ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that's what the thread is about...
I meant something not nearly as complicated as the original post. Just a blower pushing air directly into the turbo inlet, maybe a diverter valve to open when the throttle is closed.
If the blower is pushing air into the turbo then it's got to filtered prior to the blower, and then when the turbo start sucking more air than the blower delivers what's going to happen? blowers are nearly always downstream from the turbo and then they have a bypass for upper rpm air flow which exceeds the blower.