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+--- Thread: Need some advice... (/showthread.php?tid=6713)
Need some advice... - zenins - 08-28-2015
Hello.
I've started to build om606td for my w124 and I have some questions, I hope someone could give me some answers...
1. What turbo should I use (not too expensive, but no ebay sh*ts), if I aim for about ~300+hp - what sieze, a/r etc..? (will use custom manifold)
2. What flywheel (solid mass) should I use? Maybe any of MB original flywheels could work..? And what clutch, pressure plate could be used?
3. Will the 6speed transmission from w211 2.7cdi fit and hold? If not - what other options..?
Ok that's it for the moment. Would be nice to hear any advice. Thanks.
P.s. - English is not my birth language (as you've noticed, I euess
), sorry for mistakes...
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 08-28-2015
hy there ,
something u did not mention , u´ll need it as more than u think, it is a superpump. i can help u with it just pm me.
people here like the holset crap, i dont! in a 606 i would vote for the twin turbo thing. gt 22V crap.
about flywheel!!! well to use a 716 gearbox wich fits the engine, u going to need a dualmass or a solid conversion set. and that is due to the primary shaft being lodged inside the flywheel oposite to the single masses where the gearbox has a longer primary shaft wich seats in the crankshaft. beware that not all clutches can dampen the harmonic vibration wich is iherent to the engine torque in mid rev´s, and like this the engine will tend to jerk.
if a 716 gearbox from c 270cdi holds , people say yes. i have one laying around waiting to solve the odometer thing. if u plan to use that gearbox it will be kind of easy, except u have to modify the propeler shaft but thats piece of cake. the differential should be a big case 2.80 gear ratio or smaller.
regards
RE: Need some advice... - EvoPeter - 08-29-2015
There is solid dualmass flywheel from sprinters that you can buy for around 300euro that works with the 716 gearbox. You have to remove alittle from the backside to make it fitt. If u wanna use a Sachs 707 you have to machine the front also.
I use one 716 in my w201 with a solid dualmass.
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 08-30-2015
What's the advantage of twin turbo setup? And how do you control the vanes, do you need to use some kind of controller?
From what model Sprinters I can use the flywheel?
RE: Need some advice... - hooblah - 08-30-2015
Please do some research. All the info is on the forum, you just have to make time to read through it as everyone else has and does.
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 08-30-2015
(08-30-2015, 04:11 AM)hooblah Please do some research. All the info is on the forum, you just have to make time to read through it as everyone else has and does.
I've done it already, but there is too much offtopik in all theae threads to find some usefull information...
RE: Need some advice... - pryantcc - 09-01-2015
You can see details for the clutch/flywheel kit I bought here: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=5554&pid=63534#pid63534
As mentioned above, I had to grind a little off the lip on the back of the flywheel to get it to seat properly. If you're using a mechanical pump, you should have no further issues. If electronically controlled pump, there are details there also of how I got around the RPM sensor issue.
I use a 716.605 6 speed box which fits the bell housing but ends up rotated silghtly as it's designed for an engine with pistons running vertically, not at an angle like the OM606. I cant tell you if it's tough enough. My engine is stock and I haven't driven it for any great distance yet.
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 09-05-2015
Thanks for your replys.
I have found used KKK(k27 366-3) turbo and maybe someone knows will it work for om606 (with 8mm plungers)..?
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 09-06-2015
i belive that thing is the stock 606.96X turbo setup, i´m not very versed in WG turbos cause after the invention ofthe VNT tech they become scrap ....
antiques
RE: Need some advice... - Turbo - 09-06-2015
Barrote -"i´m not very versed in WG turbos cause after the invention of the VNT tech they become scrap ....Wink antiques Wink"
I would be careful to say something like that, there are some nice wastegated turbo that can do things VNT can not, aleast not yet
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 09-06-2015
(09-06-2015, 04:36 AM)Turbo Barrote -"i´m not very versed in WG turbos cause after the invention of the VNT tech they become scrap ....Wink antiques Wink"
I would be careful to say something like that, there are some nice wastegated turbo that can do things VNT can not, aleast not yet
Like? inlight me
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 09-06-2015
(09-06-2015, 03:54 AM)barrote i belive that thing is the stock 606.96X turbo setup, i´m not very versed in WG turbos cause after the invention ofthe VNT tech they become scrap ....
k27 is not stock 606 turbo for sure... Stock turbo on om606 is k14
k14=>k16=>k27=>k28
![[Image: DSC02517.jpg]](http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k617/mrmut1/DSC02517.jpg)
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 09-06-2015
u re right is K24, second geneneration number 4 lol i guess
how much is the outer diameter of that compressor? 60mm , and the turbine ? 30mm?
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 09-07-2015
(09-06-2015, 03:24 PM)barrote u re right is K24, second geneneration number 4 lol i guess
how much is the outer diameter of that compressor? 60mm , and the turbine ? 30mm?
The compressor wheel diameter is ~60mm, if thats wht you're asking...
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 09-07-2015
i´m just saying , is my opinion , worth what it worth, for a 606 a compressor whell should be around 60 to 70mm diameter, and the turbine 30 to 40 across , more or less blades is a question of eficiency, this arrangement in the smalest possible housing , but wide enough to flow,
this should give u a good charger, and this in a VNT would be even better.
regards
RE: Need some advice... - Turbo - 09-07-2015
(09-06-2015, 07:55 AM)barrote(09-06-2015, 04:36 AM)Turbo Barrote -"i´m not very versed in WG turbos cause after the invention of the VNT tech they become scrap ....Wink antiques Wink"
I would be careful to say something like that, there are some nice wastegated turbo that can do things VNT can not, aleast not yet
Like? inlight me
Hello Barrote, EFR7163 is not that bad for example
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 09-07-2015
i do belive u, but give-me some numbers! can it push 2 BAR from 2000 rpm till 6000? and from 4000 and above 2.5/3
if so i would like to see some vídeo of it?
regards
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 11-27-2016
Could anyone tell me what are safe EGT's for om606..? And maybe what mV's are correct for those egt's, so i could test my gauge?
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 11-28-2016
that is a strange question , i had run 800º and the engine is still alive, very often 700º i can´t say a number... it will also difer where u assemble the thermocouple....
RE: Need some advice... - 50harleyrider - 11-28-2016
On the subject of waste gated vs. VNT, the new Cummins ISF engine available in 2.8 or 3.8 is a Cummins developed wastegated turbo common rail and is supposed to be efficient,quiet, emission friendly and powerful. It looks like it comes with the ecu which easily talks to numerous power train components through industry standard datalinking. I hope someone starts a thread on this amazing engine. There's hope for the cdi MB engine ecu development for all the conversion folks.
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 11-29-2016
lol, can´t get your point , so it was the last sales blaster MB had, the 611 , used a WG turbo when everybody was calling VNT tech .
This days there´s almost an infinity of turbo´s available , for whatever application we need, the thing is : do i have 1500€ for a borg warner EFR version , or a garret GTX , no i don´t , so i pick up what ever plays the best at the cheapest affordable price.... HX35 crap out of iveco truck or something else 150€ and is terribly hard to melt..., or for 300€ a GT23 also hard to melt (not that hard) .
VGT is better , maybe not if it is holset, due the mechanism, garret behaves very good , and in the end is like having two A/R type turbines and in the between.
if i had endless money sure i wouln´t claim this.
regards
RE: Need some advice... - MFSuper90 - 11-29-2016
Vnt chargers are harder to find and much more expensive than traditional around me. Then there is the whole mess of trying to control them. The less electronics is better for me!
RE: Need some advice... - 50harleyrider - 11-29-2016
WG vs VNT. I have TDI's with each from the factory. The 96-98 had WG and VNT later. Of course they were both VE IP so an ecu computer was required. One of the reasons I went with Baldurs' DSL1 was to have the VNT control capability. I'm getting closer to completing my swap so will report on the ECU capability once I learn it. Also yes to the price probably doubling for the VNT but they are so smooth. Personally I don't like dumping perfectly good boost back into the exhaust. Inefficient at best. I have to agree with zenins.
RE: Need some advice... - uli124125 - 12-01-2016
hi
your kkk k27 366... comes from the OM 366
a motor with 6 litre and max 2600/min as a turbomachine
Lp something between 0,8 and 1,1
its too tired and slow for your project
on the om 366 its a very good loader which starts to boost under 1000/min
but for you its better to look after holsets or other turbos.
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 01-10-2017
Ok so maybe not the best turbo selection, it starts to boost around 2.5k rpm, but wont boost over ~1.5bar, still car runs pretty well...
I've been driving the car for some time and my clutch slips, it has been slipping even since first test drive. I thought it will get better as my clutch is new but flywheel was used and i just have to drive the car a little... but it didnt... It's 2.2 cdi clutch and pp from w210, so now i've got the question - is the 270cdi pressure plate stronger than what I have now, or maybe any other that fits? I'll use ceramic clutch disc as well, i think..
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 01-12-2017
Any input about clutch..? Is it worth of trying 2.7cdi pressure plate..?
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 01-17-2017
Ssinter disk ...or mixed
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 09-21-2017
Hi, everyone!
In last week I've got my car on dyno and got some results (rwhp) - see pic below.
As you can see my turbo reaches max boost (1.75 bar) at around 3.5k rpm and boost decreases after that till 1.2bar at 5.5k rpm.
I'm getting around 2bar back pressure in manifold and after 4k rpm i'm getting quite black smoke as the boost drops down...
I'm running with no wastegate so i think my compressor just maxes out at that point so I need a biger compressor or need to switch to a different turbo.
My question is should I try kkk k29 compressor on my (k27) turbine or just change the whole turbo? I can get HX40w pretty cheap but Im not sure if it will work better and wont get huge lag? Hx40w part number is 3539635 - pic below, maybe someone knows anything about this turbo and could share some thoughts? If I'm not mistaken my current kkk k27 has 13cm2 exhaust housing...
Would appreciate any input on this!
![[Image: IMG-20170917-WA0001.sized.jpg]](http://content24-foto.inbox.lv/albums/r/reddevil-ex/Turbo/IMG-20170917-WA0001.sized.jpg)
![[Image: 20170919-144737.sized.jpg]](http://content24-foto.inbox.lv/albums/r/reddevil-ex/Turbo/20170919-144737.sized.jpg)
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 09-22-2017
Well if u have a decent size pump this numbers are just ridiculous...
U should get around 400 hp from the 606 with 150cc pump.
Its too low unless at wheel...
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 09-22-2017
(09-22-2017, 10:36 AM)barrote Well if u have a decent size pump this numbers are just ridiculous...
U should get around 400 hp from the 606 with 150cc pump.
Its too low unless at wheel...
Yes numbers are from wheels.
The problem is not the fuel as the pump is not even close to max settings. I cant get decent boost at high revs as you can see in graph.. You should read the post before you type reply... But thanks anyway.
RE: Need some advice... - barrote - 09-22-2017
Sorry , it was not my intention to detray your build!
I'm just used to search other nrs... like 2.5/3 bar 180cc pumps 6/7k rpms, clutches sliping and GB boken and other fancy rocket efect MB's .
When u have 270hp at whell is not bad at all, but what is most important above all is your hapiness with your build.
Good luck
RE: Need some advice... - zenins - 11-12-2017
(09-21-2017, 07:15 AM)zenins Hi, everyone!
In last week I've got my car on dyno and got some results (rwhp) - see pic below.
As you can see my turbo reaches max boost (1.75 bar) at around 3.5k rpm and boost decreases after that till 1.2bar at 5.5k rpm.
I'm getting around 2bar back pressure in manifold and after 4k rpm i'm getting quite black smoke as the boost drops down...
I'm running with no wastegate so i think my compressor just maxes out at that point so I need a biger compressor or need to switch to a different turbo.
My question is should I try kkk k29 compressor on my (k27) turbine or just change the whole turbo? I can get HX40w pretty cheap but Im not sure if it will work better and wont get huge lag? Hx40w part number is 3539635 - pic below, maybe someone knows anything about this turbo and could share some thoughts? If I'm not mistaken my current kkk k27 has 13cm2 exhaust housing...
Would appreciate any input on this!
Hello!
So as no one answered my question, I'll ask again... What turbo would you recomend for good spool up from at least from 2.5-3k rpm and decent boost (~2.5bar) all the way to 5-6k? I mean it not definetly needs to be specific turbo, but housing size, wheel sizes, a/r etc. for about 350-400 whp
RE: Need some advice... - atypicalguy - 11-14-2017
Gosh. Okay start with a fuel quantity, or start with the power Target and then back your way into fuel quantity using brake specific fuel consumption assumptions. Once you have a fuel amount required to generate the amount of power you want, you then figure out how much air is required to burn that fuel. In order to do this, you need to decide on a Target air to fuel ratio, or AFR. A safe afr but Smokey is 17 to 1. Some of the more aggressive burnout type race cars will use more aggressive air to fuel ratio such as 12 to 13 to 1 for maximum power, but the EGT is far too high for sustained load. No one can tell you what Turbo 2 use unless you supply the fueling level and the target air to fuel ratio, or at least the pounds per minute of air that you expect to try to cram into the motor. I'm sure there are several threads where the calculations are detailed. It takes about 10 minutes.
RE: Need some advice... - atypicalguy - 11-14-2017
The best turbo for the job also depends upon the intended use of the vehicle, eg street or drift or ? But the power target tells most of that story. And perhaps a budget, as the best turbos from garrett, forced performance or borg warner can be expensive.
RE: Need some advice... - baldur - 11-15-2017
(11-14-2017, 08:57 PM)atypicalguy Gosh. Okay start with a fuel quantity, or start with the power Target and then back your way into fuel quantity using brake specific fuel consumption assumptions. Once you have a fuel amount required to generate the amount of power you want, you then figure out how much air is required to burn that fuel. In order to do this, you need to decide on a Target air to fuel ratio, or AFR. A safe afr but Smokey is 17 to 1. Some of the more aggressive burnout type race cars will use more aggressive air to fuel ratio such as 12 to 13 to 1 for maximum power, but the EGT is far too high for sustained load. No one can tell you what Turbo 2 use unless you supply the fueling level and the target air to fuel ratio, or at least the pounds per minute of air that you expect to try to cram into the motor. I'm sure there are several threads where the calculations are detailed. It takes about 10 minutes.
I made a calculator for this a couple years ago that works off a BSFC assumption.
http://foo.is/calc/dieselpower.html